Is Walmart the biggest threat facing primary care?

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Dantrolene FC

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Walmart is experimenting with opening primary care clinics. Although they say they’re focusing on rural areas, I bet they’ll try to expand into urban areas if they can show it’s profitable.

I am against this. Although I love Walmart and am appreciative for them giving me my first job out of high school and for offering me low prices on everyday items, I am a firm believer that healthcare should not be run by for profit corporations. There are ethical issues, such as running too many tests so they can turn a profit. But damn, those prices are attractive, and I love that they actually advertise their prices.


These are cash prices without insurance.


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Not sure why that is a threat? Considering primary care physicians are more likely to be employed by hospital systems now anyway.
 
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The writing is really on the wall for PCPs to be the new pharmacists and lawyers outside top 10.
 
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Not sure why that is a threat? Considering primary care physicians are more likely to be employed by hospital systems now anyway.
It’ll hurt the urgent care side of things because there’s a bunch of people who go to urgent care saying “I need a strep test”, “I need a flu test”, or “I need antibiotics” instead of “I’m sick. Can you make me better?”

For real though, if you’re a layman and only wanted antibiotics because you’ve already self-diagnosed yourself, why would you not go to this Walmart clinic for $40 cash and get your antibiotic prescription?

And the idea of advertising prices, especially for the non-insured, would drive down pricing at traditional stand alone urgent care facilities.

But this would disrupt the average dentist practice before it hits urgent care.
 
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It’ll hurt the urgent care side of things because there’s a bunch of people who go to urgent care saying “I need a strep test”, “I need a flu test”, or “I need antibiotics” instead of “I’m sick. Can you make me better?”

For real though, if you’re a layman and only wanted antibiotics because you’ve already self-diagnosed yourself, why would you not go to this Walmart clinic for $40 cash and get your antibiotic prescription?

And the idea of advertising prices, especially for the non-insured, would drive down pricing at traditional stand alone urgent care facilities.

But this would disrupt the average dentist practice before it hits urgent care.

yeah, but if you are employed by the urgent care center it doesnt matter until the urgent care goes out of business, then you get employed by the walmart. Its not like you were directly billing anyway, or sharing a profit in the profit of the urgent care. There are productivity based bonuses, but then the question becomes of having enough patients.

there are many cash only physician practice that do a great job of 50 dollars and one visit.

People said the same thing about minute clinic's, but I have yet to see PCPs get laid off en mass or practices be unable to thrive in those communities.
 
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How is that different than an urgent care or a CVS minute clinic?

Hell, i was at an urgent care today and many of the doctors on staff are FM docs.
 
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Now, i do agree with your OP about medicine should not be for-profit. That obviously devastated Philly.
 
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How is that different than an urgent care or a CVS minute clinic?

Hell, i was at an urgent care today and many of the doctors on staff are FM docs.
I guess my title is a little misleading. I don’t think it’s going to harm primary care. I just think it could harm urgent care specific doctors, but honestly mainly just NPs, PAs, and the people who own the urgent care clinics.

I would be interested to see a bill for an patient who goes to a regular urgent care clinic for a strep test. At this Walmart, it would be $60. At an urgent care, I would guess around $200. But who knows because they don’t advertise their prices.

I went to an optometrist because I needed a new glasses prescription and she billed my insurance $500 without a contact lens fitting. Now granted, she also did a full exam with indirect ophthalmoscopy and everything.

But for a regular, healthy John Q. Public who goes to get a new eyeglasses prescription without vision insurance, and who may not understand the importance of a full eye exam, I could see them being floored by a $500 bill when they see Walmart advertising $45 for a basic eye exam which is all they wanted in the first place.
 
I guess my title is a little misleading. I don’t think it’s going to harm primary care. I just think it could harm urgent care specific doctors, but honestly mainly just NPs, PAs, and the people who own the urgent care clinics.

I would be interested to see a bill for an patient who goes to a regular urgent care clinic for a strep test. At this Walmart, it would be $60. At an urgent care, I would guess around $200. But who knows because they don’t advertise their prices.

I went to an optometrist because I needed a new glasses prescription and she billed my insurance $500 without a contact lens fitting. Now granted, she also did a full exam with indirect ophthalmoscopy and everything.

But for a regular, healthy John Q. Public who goes to get a new eyeglasses prescription without vision insurance, and who may not understand the importance of a full eye exam, I could see them being floored by a $500 bill when they see Walmart advertising $45 for a basic eye exam which is all they wanted in the first place.

This is going to help NPs and PAs, who do you think is going to be working at these clinics?

Plus, are you a free market kind of person? In which case you should rejoice as competition should bring the market back to reality.

There is a lot of unmet demand, plus the ability to create demand. People who would not have gotten an appointment with their doc , or people who would have never gone to the doctor can now probably go to this place considering it will be more convenient.
 
This is going to help NPs and PAs, who do you think is going to be working at these clinics?

Plus, are you a free market kind of person? In which case you should rejoice as competition should bring the market back to reality.

Tell that to all the pharmacists now working at Walmart. My friend is graduating pharmacy school and he says it’s hard to even find a full-time job in retail as a fresh grad. I don’t think it will help them.

Now, we also shouldn’t ignore the fact that pharmacy schools have tripled their graduates in the last 15 years or so.

I’m a free market kind of guy when the situation calls for a free market. I like free markets when it comes to buying a car, but I don’t like free markets when it comes to buying water or electricity from utility companies.

Not everything is best solved by a free market.
 
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Tell that to all the pharmacists now working at Walmart. My friend is graduating pharmacy school and he says it’s hard to even find a full-time job in retail as a fresh grad. I don’t think it will help them.

Now, we also shouldn’t ignore the fact that pharmacy schools have tripled their graduates in the last 15 years or so.

I’m a free market kind of guy when the situation calls for a free market. I like free markets when it comes to buying a car, but I don’t like free markets when it comes to buying water or electricity from utility companies.

Not everything is best solved by a free market.
Your second point makes your first point completely null and void regarding pharmacists.

Do you think that healthcare should be left to the freemarket?
 
Your second point makes your first point completely null and void regarding pharmacists.

Do you think that healthcare should be left to the freemarket?
Free market is okay for elective stuff. Not so much for emergent stuff.

I don’t like for profits in healthcare because they will provide the cheapest, low quality care to save money when able, and they will run the most expensive, unnecessary tests to increase revenues when able.
 
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I actually kind of like this. Let's face it, the modern patient is more a consumer than anything else really. They go to the doctor with something specific in mind and push for that thing no matter how hard we plea for them to come to their senses. There's no fighting this. At least it'll hopefully decrease the current climate of wreckless overuse of EDs. I'm also a huge fan of reasonably priced direct fee for service healthcare and getting rid of the malignant middle man that is insurance.
 
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I mean, patients can already order their own lab tests if they wanted with places like WalkInLab.com. If they had an UpToDate subscription then it’s over for PCPs.
 
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I mean, patients can already order their own lab tests if they wanted with places like WalkInLab.com. If they had an UpToDate subscription then it’s over for PCPs.
I sometimes think all of medical school really is just an expensive exercise in learning how to read uptodate correctly.
 
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Can’t wait to get calls from Walmart about what they are sending to my ED.

Reducible inguinal hernia is definitely coming to your ED in volume soon.
 
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There are innumerable threats to healthcare, as everyone wants to get a chunk of the enormous amount of money that flows through the system. I see the threat posed by wal-mart and the like but at least theyll still be brick and mortar, I'm more afraid of tech companies (amazon, google, apple) cause they have the assets to really disrupt how things are done, and could use your healthcare data in extremely unsavory ways (not to say wal-mart couldn't, but I'm much more afraid of those who already do this on an everyday basis).
 
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Walmart is experimenting with opening primary care clinics. Although they say they’re focusing on rural areas, I bet they’ll try to expand into urban areas if they can show it’s profitable.

I am against this. Although I love Walmart and am appreciative for them giving me my first job out of high school and for offering me low prices on everyday items, I am a firm believer that healthcare should not be run by for profit corporations. There are ethical issues, such as running too many tests so they can turn a profit. But damn, those prices are attractive, and I love that they actually advertise their prices.


These are cash prices without insurance.

Docs in a box have been around for awhile. Haven't heard a peep of complaint about them yet.
 
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If Wal-Mart is a threat to primary care then primary care needs to up their game.
 
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Iam a firm believer that healthcare should not be run by for profit corporations.
Are you just naiive or are you under the impression Kaiser Permanente or [insert name of any hospital system] is rolling in it's $2.7 billion in profits out of the goodness of it's non-profit heart?
 
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Don't think it's bad at all. Physicians should also start more and more independent practices at least in primary care where it's still somewhat feasible. I like that these clinics eliminate the insurance company and deal directly with the patient.
 
Are you just naiive or are you under the impression Kaiser Permanente or [insert name of any hospital system] is rolling in it's $2.7 billion in profits out of the goodness of it's non-profit heart?
I’m not familiar with Kaiser Permanente, but I can give you an example from my hometown.

In my hometown, a non-profit hospital received a huge donation to build an emergency department with new equipment and so on. Later on it was bought out by a for-profit company. Do you think that hospital ever received another donation again? Of course not.

That company drove the hospital to the ground, never invested in it, decreased its charity care significantly, then sold it back to a non-profit who is planning on reinvesting in the hospital again.

No not all non-profits are ran appropriately. But I fail to see how that is an argument that for-profits should run hospitals.
 
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Don't think it's bad at all. Physicians should also start more and more independent practices at least in primary care where it's still somewhat feasible. I like that these clinics eliminate the insurance company and deal directly with the patient.
I 100% agree. I wish we would have a direct primary care system instead of the nonsense we have now.

We might as well use our car insurance to replace our oil, buy gas, and buy new tires.
 
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Docs in a box have been around for awhile. Haven't heard a peep of complaint about them yet.
I don’t like standalone emergency rooms either. I like the old model of a community hospital with independent clinics surrounding it, but I guess that’s just me growing up in rural area and having culture shock by moving to an urban area for medical school.

Now, I will admit I’m obviously not familiar with every doc in a box company, but Walmart is the only company I’m familiar with who is doing primary care type stuff with annual physical exams instead of just urgent care.

Here is my general concern with companies like Walmart doing this: I believe they will be more likely to do unnecessary testing and exams to make more money. If a healthy 25 year old male comes in for a physical exam, I believe Walmart would recommend they continue to come in annually, even though they don’t need to be seen annually.
 
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I’m not familiar with Kaiser Permanente, but I can give you an example from my hometown.

In my hometown, a non-profit hospital received a huge donation to build an emergency department with new equipment and so on. Later on it was bought out by a for-profit company. Do you think that hospital ever received another donation again? Of course not.

That company drove the hospital to the ground, never invested in it, decreased its charity care significantly, then sold it back to a non-profit who is planning on reinvesting in the hospital again.

No not all non-profits are ran appropriately. But I fail to see how that is an argument that for-profits should run hospitals.
The point is that a very significant number of hospitals in the country are for profit or non-profit in name only. And the trend has been towards more and more consolidation into large healthcare systems and away from stand alone non-profit hospitals. Nobody is out here saying they don't like stand alone community hospitals or that it isn't a good model for healthcare. Healthcare in general is moving away from things like that. Plus you can factor in the fact that the insurance companies who pay for healthcare are for profit. So I really have no problem with Wal-mart throwing its hand in the market. Especially with low prices and price transparency
 
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I don’t like standalone emergency rooms either. I like the old model of a community hospital with independent clinics surrounding it, but I guess that’s just me growing up in rural area and having culture shock by moving to an urban area for medical school.

Now, I will admit I’m obviously not familiar with every doc in a box company, but Walmart is the only company I’m familiar with who is doing primary care type stuff with annual physical exams instead of just urgent care.

Here is my general concern with companies like Walmart doing this: I believe they will be more likely to do unnecessary testing and exams to make more money. If a healthy 25 year old male comes in for a physical exam, I believe Walmart would recommend they continue to come in annually, even though they don’t need to be seen annually.
I'm far more worried about Walmart destroying local businesses. Yeah, their prices are cheap, but a hollowed out downtown in your city is a by product. Also, it helps Chinese mfrs a lot more than US ones.
 
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How is that different than an urgent care or a CVS minute clinic?

Hell, i was at an urgent care today and many of the doctors on staff are FM docs.

Yeah I don't see how this is new or threatening at all. CVS minute clinics have been around for 2 decades now, I'm sure similar models existed even before that. and Costco already does cheap eye exams, so this thread just seems like a lot of unnecessary posturing.
 
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Yeah I don't see how this is new or threatening at all. CVS minute clinics have been around for 2 decades now, I'm sure similar models existed even before that. and Costco already does cheap eye exams, so this thread just seems like a lot of unnecessary posturing.

I feel like it would be threatening strictly on availability. I've never even heard of CVS minute clinics (I don't leave near one)... but I've heard of cheap eye exams at Costco and Walmart, as well as CVS and Walgreens Pharmacy... but isn't that essentially what we don't want PCP's becoming? Pharmacists and Optometrists haven't exactly been quiet on what it is like to work under these conditions and for these companies. The general consensus is that they all hate it. The market for those professions are way worse now after the disruption of these companies

Walmart is the largest company in the United States... If this is profitable it could be put in every state and would essentially ruin a lot PCP private practice... something that is already waning

Urgent cares are different imo... as they legitimately cover a niche in healthcare. Not to mention they don't have the corporate power of Walmart, so physicians still have decent bargaining power. That is gone once Walmart is introduced into the equation.

This is my interpretation on it... I'd love to hear yours
 
I feel like it would be threatening strictly on availability. I've never even heard of CVS minute clinics (I don't leave near one)... but I've heard of cheap eye exams at Costco and Walmart, as well as CVS and Walgreens Pharmacy... but isn't that essentially what we don't want PCP's becoming? Pharmacists and Optometrists haven't exactly been quiet on what it is like to work under these conditions and for these companies. The general consensus is that they all hate it. The market for those professions are way worse now after the disruption of these companies

Walmart is the largest company in the United States... If this is profitable it could be put in every state and would essentially ruin a lot PCP private practice... something that is already waning

Urgent cares are different imo... as they legitimately cover a niche in healthcare. Not to mention they don't have the corporate power of Walmart, so physicians still have decent bargaining power. That is gone once Walmart is introduced into the equation.

This is my interpretation on it... I'd love to hear yours
If we FPs can be replaced by Walmart clinics, we deserve to be.

I'm not worried.
 
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If we FPs can be replaced by Walmart clinics, we deserve to be.

I'm not worried.

Fair. I'm not saying it's going to happen... but keep in mind pharmacists and optometrists weren't worried at one point either. Not to mention the way things are moving, w more FPs being employed instead of owning. Not saying FPs will ever get replaced, but that doesn't mean it can't change the market of how you work... For better or worse. You have less to worry about since you're already practicing since these things take time... but to think walmart clinics would have zero effects in 15 years I believe to be pretty optimistic

As far as 'deserving to be replaced', I don't necessarily agree. Money talks in this country, and patients don't always know when they're getting the best care. Some people will scream "Free market", but it's different when dealing with human lives and health imo
 
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You do realize that even non-profit organizations, i.e. hospitals, operate on the principle of turning a profit right? No one said non-profits can't generate profit - they just can't be organized for the primary purpose of generating a profit: "a group organized for purposes other than generating profit and in which no part of the organization's income is distributed to its members, directors, or officers." Any profits just get re-invested into the business, i.e. you build a new hospital and buy new, fancy equipment. It doesn't mean that you don't get excesses - you do - and it doesn't mean that patients will get the best outcomes - they don't necessarily.

If Walmart can, as a for-profit organization, provide high-quality healthcare at lower cost across the nation, why shouldn't it?
 
These prices are only attractive to uninsured and underinsured people. $40 is roughly the same as or even more than what a lot of people pay out of pocket for a doctor's visit. My anxiety medicine costs $3 a month, but I often opt to go without it because it costs me $50 to see the doctor who prescribes it. I checked this list wondering if in the future I'd be able to just go to Walmart to get a prescription and went "meh."
 
The only benefit I see to this is that Wal-Mart has publicly said they learned from the mistakes of CVS or Walgreens and they will only be hiring board certified Physicians to run their clinics. They said the other companies relied too heavily on NPs and PAs and people did not stick around. Perhaps with a real Physician, they'll actually stick around. Plus, if they make all the locations look as nice as the ones they built, they look like hella nice clinics tbh.
 
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Fair. I'm not saying it's going to happen... but keep in mind pharmacists and optometrists weren't worried at one point either. Not to mention the way things are moving, w more FPs being employed instead of owning. Not saying FPs will ever get replaced, but that doesn't mean it can't change the market of how you work... For better or worse. You have less to worry about since you're already practicing since these things take time... but to think walmart clinics would have zero effects in 15 years I believe to be pretty optimistic
Umm what?

Optometrists were worried about this from the start, or at least my father and grandfather optometrists were.
 
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Umm what?

I assume you understand that hospitals also run under the model of turning a profit. Just because an organization is non-profit does not mean that it stops trying to make money. That's why fee-for-service still isn't a great way of paying hospitals, because it incentivizes the hospital to keep doing stuff that makes money. So the argument that someone wouldn't want to receive care from a for-profit clinic just because it's for-profit isn't necessarily valid. All organizations try to turn a profit. 7 of the top 10 profit-generating hospitals are non-profit: https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/full/10.1377/hlthaff.2015.1193.

I can understand the argument that in a for-profit clinic, doctors might be pressured to order more tests especially if the tests are owned by the company. So hiring doctors who would order non-indicated tests would obviously be a problem. But then your problem is unscrupulous doctors. If Walmart can take advantage of its economies of scale to deliver care that is low-cost and higher quality to patients, which can readily be measured using national benchmarks, then I do not believe that this is a bad idea just because it is a for-profit organization as compared to a non-profit.
 
Walmart is experimenting with opening primary care clinics. Although they say they’re focusing on rural areas, I bet they’ll try to expand into urban areas if they can show it’s profitable.

I am against this. Although I love Walmart and am appreciative for them giving me my first job out of high school and for offering me low prices on everyday items, I am a firm believer that healthcare should not be run by for profit corporations. There are ethical issues, such as running too many tests so they can turn a profit. But damn, those prices are attractive, and I love that they actually advertise their prices.


These are cash prices without insurance.

I understand your worry with walmart but I actually find this more appealing. I mean granted if the office isn't some pretzel shop you see at the corner of the entrance to the belk inside a mall, this is a better way of allowing a consumerist economy become more conscious about their health. Yea, NPs and PAs can find jobs here for sure but what does that say about how walmart will handle pricing. Will they lessen the cost at the expense of paying their employees less, to look appealing to the masses? I personally am surprised at this move since walmart is a retail store...not a medical entity...so in the least I would have expected some partnership from a local health network with walmart to allow greater access to folks who weren't as willing to see doctor before. I do worry how our healthcare is going to fare...I worry how my own job will look a decade after this year...hmmm
 
I assume you understand that hospitals also run under the model of turning a profit. Just because an organization is non-profit does not mean that it stops trying to make money. That's why fee-for-service still isn't a great way of paying hospitals, because it incentivizes the hospital to keep doing stuff that makes money. So the argument that someone wouldn't want to receive care from a for-profit clinic just because it's for-profit isn't necessarily valid. All organizations try to turn a profit. 7 of the top 10 profit-generating hospitals are non-profit: https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/full/10.1377/hlthaff.2015.1193.

I can understand the argument that in a for-profit clinic, doctors might be pressured to order more tests especially if the tests are owned by the company. So hiring doctors who would order non-indicated tests would obviously be a problem. But then your problem is unscrupulous doctors. If Walmart can take advantage of its economies of scale to deliver care that is low-cost and higher quality to patients, which can readily be measured using national benchmarks, then I do not believe that this is a bad idea just because it is a for-profit organization as compared to a non-profit.
That was my fault, I mean to quote a different post in my response. I have corrected that.

Your post that I mistakenly responded to was spot on.
 
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Umm what?

Optometrists were worried about this from the start, or at least my father and grandfather optometrists were.

Maybe your relatives were, but as a group it didn't seem that way. Honestly it seems most healthcare professionals in general don't worry about things like this. If they did then you'd think more healthcare professionals would be at the forefront of admin and policy within the industry. Also physician lobbying would be a lot better in Washington. As of now there basically isn't any at all. Healthcare has changed a lot in recent years, and I think a lot of people would agree that physicians didn't have enough say in what those changes were

Nurses are the only ones who have good lobbying as of now, from what I can understand

If you admit that your optometrists relatives were worried, but yet unable to do anything about the coming change of corporate practice that they all dislike... Then what is your logic about not being worried?


I could just be naive and misinformed. If that is the case I'd love any additional information, but this is my current interpretation with the information that I have.
 
You do realize that even non-profit organizations, i.e. hospitals, operate on the principle of turning a profit right? No one said non-profits can't generate profit - they just can't be organized for the primary purpose of generating a profit: "a group organized for purposes other than generating profit and in which no part of the organization's income is distributed to its members, directors, or officers." Any profits just get re-invested into the business, i.e. you build a new hospital and buy new, fancy equipment. It doesn't mean that you don't get excesses - you do - and it doesn't mean that patients will get the best outcomes - they don't necessarily.

If Walmart can, as a for-profit organization, provide high-quality healthcare at lower cost across the nation, why shouldn't it?

I understand why Walmart would want to, but I would think it's not in the best interests of primary care physicians for two reasons.

1. Autonomy
-For both selfish and non-selfish reasons. The selfish reasons are simple things like being the one who decides how things operate, job market, salary, etc. Look at how bad it's gotten for optometrists and pharmacists. The non-selfish reasons can be better highlighted within my second point..

2. Patient-care
-From what I have seen from corporate entities getting involved is not always a good thing. Yes it is cheaper, but having non-physicians in charge could come at a cost. An example of this can be seen within the field of dentistry when you look at groups such as Aspen Dental. As you can imagine, these offices focus solely on production. If you go speak to many of the people have worked there you will find that they push their dentists to do unnecessary procedures in order to increase profits. Filling a cavity is very subjective... if you have a small hole, some conservative dentists will tell you just to brush extra in that area to stop erosion, avoid drilling, and preserve your natural tooth. At Aspen they encourage you to fill every thing that walks in that door. This aggressive style in turn, has created many angry dentists and hurt patients. There is a facebook group of 12,000 people dedicated to trying to shut this place down. For some dentists it can be very lucrative financially, as you can earn a high salary without having zero overhead and zero stress from running a practice... but that doesn't mean it's always ethical or even good care.

-Basically, I think healthcare professionals need to maintain autonomy for this reason. Yes, it is true that hospitals operate on turning a profit. However, you can operate on turning a profit and still avoid exploiting people (like most dentist-owned offices). You could even make an argument that hospitals fit perfectly in what I'm talking about. I'm sure you've seen the photo I attached below at one point or another... but is it simply by coincidence that once non-providers enter the healthcare industry as leaders spending rises exponentially? Yes physicians are running a business that operates on profit, but most importantly they put patient care first while these business people do not.


I'd love to hear your thoughts about what I've said
 

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Maybe your relatives were, but as a group it didn't seem that way. Honestly it seems most healthcare professionals in general don't worry about things like this. If they did then you'd think more healthcare professionals would be at the forefront of admin and policy within the industry. Also physician lobbying would be a lot better in Washington. As of now there basically isn't any at all. Healthcare has changed a lot in recent years, and I think a lot of people would agree that physicians didn't have enough say in what those changes were

Nurses are the only ones who have good lobbying as of now, from what I can understand

If you admit that your optometrists relatives were worried, but yet unable to do anything about the coming change of corporate practice that they all dislike... Then what is your logic about not being worried?


I could just be naive and misinformed. If that is the case I'd love any additional information, but this is my current interpretation with the information that I have.
Part of the issue with optometry and pharmacy is the oversupply. Back when Wal-Mart et al got involved, they pay and hours were still quite good. The excess of graduates compared to the market demands is what caused the bigger issue.

Primary Care doesn't have that problem.
 
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I understand why Walmart would want to, but I would think it's not in the best interests of primary care physicians for two reasons.

1. Autonomy
-For both selfish and non-selfish reasons. The selfish reasons are simple things like being the one who decides how things operate, job market, salary, etc. Look at how bad it's gotten for optometrists and pharmacists. The non-selfish reasons can be better highlighted within my second point..

2. Patient-care
-From what I have seen from corporate entities getting involved is not always a good thing. Yes it is cheaper, but having non-physicians in charge could come at a cost. An example of this can be seen within the field of dentistry when you look at groups such as Aspen Dental. As you can imagine, these offices focus solely on production. If you go speak to many of the people have worked there you will find that they push their dentists to do unnecessary procedures in order to increase profits. Filling a cavity is very subjective... if you have a small hole, some conservative dentists will tell you just to brush extra in that area to stop erosion, avoid drilling, and preserve your natural tooth. At Aspen they encourage you to fill every thing that walks in that door. This aggressive style in turn, has created many angry dentists and hurt patients. There is a facebook group of 12,000 people dedicated to trying to shut this place down. For some dentists it can be very lucrative financially, as you can earn a high salary without having zero overhead and zero stress from running a practice... but that doesn't mean it's always ethical or even good care.

-Basically, I think healthcare professionals need to maintain autonomy for this reason. Yes, it is true that hospitals operate on turning a profit. However, you can operate on turning a profit and still avoid exploiting people (like most dentist-owned offices). You could even make an argument that hospitals fit perfectly in what I'm talking about. I'm sure you've seen the photo I attached below at one point or another... but is it simply by coincidence that once non-providers enter the healthcare industry as leaders spending rises exponentially? Yes physicians are running a business that operates on profit, but most importantly they put patient care first while these business people do not.


I'd love to hear your thoughts about what I've said

Both are fair points. I'll try to address them in turn.

First, I 100% agree that it is against any physician's interest for this to happen. That is without a doubt. There is no longer autonomy when you're not running the business and you do feel pressured to do things that people in the C-suite want you to do. They might even give you bonuses for doing those things to incentivize it. But physician autonomy is out of the scope of what I was talking about, which is demand-side economics.

So patient care. Yes, some for-profit companies are a problem because people in the C-suite push their employees to do things. This is fine in sales because if you're trying to buy a car, you expect them to be pushy and try to sell you the car. But no matter what they're saying about the product, you can find ways to verify. You can look stuff up online about what you're buying to make sure that it does exactly what they claim it does. But this isn't true in healthcare due to the information asymmetry. Patients and insurers both rely on physicians to be honest when telling them what is indicated and what isn't. You can't look this stuff up most of the time - otherwise you wouldn't need to go to the doctor. You can always go for a second opinion but in many cases, people prefer to have a single provider and develop that longitudinal relationship. So this creates a problem in cases where there is physician discretion (similar to the cavities that you mention above). One of the best examples is in imaging, e.g. low value imaging for chronic back pain. In some cases this is indicated. But in many cases, it is not. One might expect that Walmart might pressure physicians to order more tests and imaging in these circumstances, especially when it starts to own more and more of the lab and imaging facilities. If you own an MRI, you obviously want to use that MRI as much as you can. So this is a form of so-called physician-induced demand.

But I personally don't think that this is inevitable. The core issue here has to do with physician ethics more so than it has to do with whether a company is for-profit or not, which was my original point. The idea is we should not train nor hire unscrupulous doctors. Obviously there will always be a few bad eggs. But this is where national benchmarking comes in. Insurers already do this for certain things. If you see a physician at Walmart ordering MRIs in 90% of his back pain patients whereas you know that the national benchmark, adjusted for region, complexity of patients, etc., is 10%, then you know you have a problem. You stop sending patients to that physician, or in this case, to Walmart. Walmart will start losing money. The idea behind benchmarking is to create a standard of care that can be enforced. Walmart would then be forced to set limits on how much the C-suite enroaches on physician autonomy, especially where it broaches ethical principles of conduct.

As a final point, I would like to point out that most non-profit hospitals are also managed by C-suite executives that are not physicians. Yes, MD/MBAs have seen a surge in recent years but they're still the minority. Most of the administrators are not MDs. I suspect that you already know this, judging from your previous post. So you'd be hard-pressed to explain why these non-physician administrators are okay but the ones over at any potential Walmart clinic are not.
 
adolf16]
Both are fair points. I'll try to address them in turn.

First, I 100% agree that it is against any physician's interest for this to happen. That is without a doubt. There is no longer autonomy when you're not running the business and you do feel pressured to do things that people in the C-suite want you to do. They might even give you bonuses for doing those things to incentivize it. But physician autonomy is out of the scope of what I was talking about, which is demand-side economics.

So patient care. Yes, some for-profit companies are a problem because people in the C-suite push their employees to do things. This is fine in sales because if you're trying to buy a car, you expect them to be pushy and try to sell you the car. But no matter what they're saying about the product, you can find ways to verify. You can look stuff up online about what you're buying to make sure that it does exactly what they claim it does. But this isn't true in healthcare due to the information asymmetry. Patients and insurers both rely on physicians to be honest when telling them what is indicated and what isn't. You can't look this stuff up most of the time - otherwise you wouldn't need to go to the doctor. You can always go for a second opinion but in many cases, people prefer to have a single provider and develop that longitudinal relationship. So this creates a problem in cases where there is physician discretion (similar to the cavities that you mention above). One of the best examples is in imaging, e.g. low value imaging for chronic back pain. In some cases this is indicated. But in many cases, it is not. One might expect that Walmart might pressure physicians to order more tests and imaging in these circumstances, especially when it starts to own more and more of the lab and imaging facilities. If you own an MRI, you obviously want to use that MRI as much as you can. So this is a form of so-called physician-induced demand.

But I personally don't think that this is inevitable. The core issue here has to do with physician ethics more so than it has to do with whether a company is for-profit or not, which was my original point. The idea is we should not train nor hire unscrupulous doctors. Obviously there will always be a few bad eggs. But this is where national benchmarking comes in. Insurers already do this for certain things. If you see a physician at Walmart ordering MRIs in 90% of his back pain patients whereas you know that the national benchmark, adjusted for region, complexity of patients, etc., is 10%, then you know you have a problem. You stop sending patients to that physician, or in this case, to Walmart. Walmart will start losing money. The idea behind benchmarking is to create a standard of care that can be enforced. Walmart would then be forced to set limits on how much the C-suite enroaches on physician autonomy, especially where it broaches ethical principles of conduct.

As a final point, I would like to point out that most non-profit hospitals are also managed by C-suite executives that are not physicians. Yes, MD/MBAs have seen a surge in recent years but they're still the minority. Most of the administrators are not MDs. I suspect that you already know this, judging from your previous post. So you'd be hard-pressed to explain why these non-physician administrators are okay but the ones over at any potential Walmart clinic are not.
Well said
 
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