ITP vs. Saybrook non-clinical PhDs

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Hadashi no Gen

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Although I am sure that some biases exist here regarding the practice of psychotherapy, I am very interested in hearing any of your opinions.

Currently I am in a Masters program, seeking professional licensure as a Clinical Mental Health Counselor. Coming from an educational background, I would love to teach university some day, and because of this I have been considering a PhD.

My question is not about a PhD in Counselor Education, rather, it is with regard to whether-or-not a non-clinical PhD in Psychology would benefit my career in anyway. I do not want to be a clinical psychologist, but I have found some programs that (I believe) could give me an advantage as a professional, would allow me to incorporate my creative passions, and would accommodate my family/personal life. Two of which I have become interested are online, through the Institute of Transpersonal Psychology and Saybrook University (formerly Saybrook Grad. Inst.).

Here are the pros:

ITP...
* My interest in Transpersonal Psych (as well as the areas of parapsychology & phenomenon).
* The online PhD allows for 1 year of Advanced Standing.
* Emphasis on Creativity.
* Required residential seminars are few, but close to where I live.

Saybrook...
* The school's focus on Humanistic theory, and openness to ideology similar to that of ITP.
* Specialization in Jungian Studies.
* Emphasis on Creativity.
* Frequent residential seminars.

What are your thoughts? To bring a bit of order to my rambling...

1. In what areas would a non-clinical PhD in Psychology allow me to teach in a University setting?

2. Would either school/program benefit my clinical or private practice as an established mental health counselor/therapist?

3. What are your thoughts on either school?

Thanks!

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what is transpersonal psychology? ive never heard of that.
 
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These programs/degrees only prepare you to work within the population of clients/practitioners already working within these very specific models. Outside of this they are not held in high regard by the profession or academia so would not add to broader job prospects.

Since you can practice with the license you are already pursuing, I don't see how the additional degree would help with the exception of maybe being hired by either of these schools eventually. It makes much more sense to complete your present career path and get established in a practice and then see whether you need or want to take some of the courses they offer before considering a whole additional degree program.
 
2) no. neither program give any practicum experience. therefore there would be benefit for clients. you would not learn assessment or have any hands on experience with psychotherapy through the school. also, i highly doubt you could obtain an internship at a APPIC place. let alone a APA/CPA approved one. therefore, pretty useless.

First of all, I really appreciate your taking the time to respond to me. Something that you missed when reading my post, though, was that I have no interest in working as a psychologist. By the time I start another program, I will already be working as a LMHC (LCMHC, LPC, etc...), well into my own career as a therapist. Since I do not want to work as a psychologist, and will already have satisfied the requirements for practicum/internship needed to be professional counselor in most states, I will not need an APPIC/APA approved internship. My reason for getting a PhD is, as I stated, simply to obtain more knowledge so that I can teach, provide better-quality service to clients, and further focus on areas of my own personal interest.

Regarding everything else, thank you very much for your thoughts on the schools and how their degrees would not work to my benefit. I am still trying to decide what I think about the online format... but will keep those thoughts private for now, so to not divert this thread off-topic too soon.

Thanks.
 
These programs/degrees only prepare you to work within the population of clients/practitioners already working within these very specific models. Outside of this they are not held in high regard by the profession or academia so would not add to broader job prospects.

Since you can practice with the license you are already pursuing, I don't see how the additional degree would help with the exception of maybe being hired by either of these schools eventually. It makes much more sense to complete your present career path and get established in a practice and then see whether you need or want to take some of the courses they offer before considering a whole additional degree program.

Thank you 🙂
 
I think a good question would be where do you want to teach? From my knowledge about academia, any sort of state university will require that you know the mainstream dialogue of your field of interest.

Saybrook and ITP seem to be schools that promote the third force psychologies that don't constitute the mainstream. Choosing to go to them sounds great for personal growth, but not for career growth.

Since it seems that you want to pursuit a PhD for the goal of teaching at the university level, I think that pursuing one of these programs might not help you reach that goal. Unless you find programs that are as specific as ITP and Saybrook that are looking for faculty and those are a handful.

I say this because I was thinking of applying to those programs but after evaluating my goals I decided that they were not for me because they are limiting. I also thinking that if you're interested in Jungian studies, Transpersonal and Humanistic psychology there are always institutes that give out certificates, reading groups, associations and conferences. You can feed your interests without getting into major debt and at the same time reaching your goal.

Here's something one should think about, how would you deal with the fact that most universities do not teach or care about these psychologies?

Hope this helps.
 
TO: PSYDR

Your "opinion" about Saybrook University is libelous and slanderous. I would inform myself before making erroneous remarks (tendered as advice) about a first class educational institution. As a graduate and highly successful and accomplished individual post-doc. I can attest to the quality of education that is afforded by Saybrook University and the fact that scores of its graduates are faculty at highly reputable colleges and universities around the world and in the USA. We have NIH grant holders and licensed psychologists in every state. Student publishing rate and EPPP (psychology licensing exam) scores/first time pass rates are in the top 10% in the nation. It is also not niche-specific. While its philosophical roots are in Humanistic Psychology it has a legacy of first-class education in applied psychophysiology, biofeedback, behavioral medicine and health psychology and importantly, it is an important think-tank whose curriculum, above all, stresses critical thinking and not just blind acceptance of the status quo! I might also add that Saybrook is not an online university; it advances a disbursed residency model that involves intensive and extensive face-to-face/classroom-based lectures, workshops, seminars and training in clinical procedures and makes graduates who adhere to the APA recommended curriculum licensure eligible (this means that the school can document to the satisfaction of state licensing boards that its residential conferences are the equivalent of one full year in residency; the APA benchmark residential requirement). Moreover, Saybrook now has a PsyD. program that is on track for APA clinical accreditation. Irrespective thereof, Saybrook graduates are licensed as psychologists in all states and that says it all (meaning, graduates not only sat for the EPPP, but they secured pre-doctoral clinical internships and post-doctoral residencies and the mandated amount of clinical experience hours). Many clinical psychologists who graduated from Saybrook were already first-rate experienced and licensed clinicians in other human service fields who sought licensure as a psychologist for professional reasons; and, they succeeded. So PSYDR does not have a clue and in the process has slandered hundreds of successful graduates; yes, he's exactly the psychologist role model we all need!

Here's my Bio for example:

Dr. Roland A. Carlstedt is a licensed psychologist, board-certified sport psychologist, board certified in applied clinical psychophysiology and biofeedback and chairman of the American Board of Sport Psychology. He is also the holder of an applied psychologist's license. Roland earned his PhD in psychology with honors from Saybrook Graduate School (with emphases in health and sport psychology and psychophysiology) in San Francisco, under the renowned personality psychologist and behavioral geneticist Dr. Auke Tellegen of the University of Minnesota. He has completed postdoctoral continuing education in psychiatric neuroscience through Harvard Medical School, and received training in the joint Massachusetts General Hospital-Massachusetts Institute of Technology-Harvard Medical School Athinoula A. Martinos Center for Biomedical Imaging Functional Magnetic Resonance Imagery (fMRI) Visiting Fellowship program and SELECTIVE NIH-sponsored program in Multi-Modal Brain Imaging. He is a member of the Massachusetts General Hospital Psychiatry Academy. Roland is also a research fellow in applied neuroscience with the Brain Resource Company the preeminent repository and developer of normative clinical databases of brain functioning where he is responsible for validating a neurocognitive database on athlete brain functioning . He is also the clinical and research director of Integrative Psychological Services of New York City. His recent clinical book Handbook of Integrative Clincal Psychology, Psychiatry and Behavioral Medicine: Perspectives, Practices and Research (Springer Publishing; 72 contributors representing premier medical schools worldwide present research and perspectives in 31 chapters [ca. 1000 pages] including 3 by Dr. Carlstedt) was released in Dec. 2009. Roland's dissertation on neuropsychological, personality, and performance processes in highly skilled athletes (700) from seven sports (tennis, baseball, softball, basketball, golf, volleyball, and track and field) was honored with the seal of distinction. It was also the recipient of the American Psychological Association's Division 47 (Exercise and Sport Psychology) 2001 Award for Best Dissertation in Sport Psychology. His dissertation was also nominated for the Society of Neuroscience's Annual 2002 Lindsley Award for Best Dissertation in Behavioral Neuroscience. It was also the basis for his book Critical moments during competition: A mind-body model of sport performance when it counts the most (2004, Psychology Press). Since earning his doctorate Roland's research has been published in Biofeedback, Cortex, Brain and Cognition and the Journal of the American Board of Sport Psychology. He has also presented papers and chaired symposia at numerous American Psychological Association and Association for Applied Psychophysiology and Biofeedback conventions and has co-authored chapters in three academic books. In his capacity of founder and chairman of the American Board of Sport Psychology Roland has mentored numerous professionals pursuing certification in sport psychology as well as undergraduate and graduate students from prestigious institutions including the University of Pennsylvania, University of Southern California, Williams College, Amhearst College, Wellesley College, Duke University, Fordham University, Temple University, Queens University (N.C.), University of Delaware, City University of New York (City College), State University of New York (New Pflatz), State University of New York (Stoneybrook), State University of New York (Binghamton), Boston College, Davidson College, Allegheny College, Karlstad University (SWE), Bournemouth University (U.K.), Warsaw Medical University (POL), Massey University (N.Z.) and Harlequins Professional Rugby Union Team (U.K.) in the ABSP annual summer intern and visiting fellowship programs. Roland consults with numerous athletes, teams and organizations worldwide including the Harlequins Professional Rugby Union Team (London, U.K.) and the Polish Tennis Federation. He is involved in numerous ongoing research projects in sport psychology including in vivo qEEG and HRV studies of athletes from the sports of baseball, golf, tennis, basketball, football and rugby. His latest book, Evidence-based applied sport psychology: A manual for practitioners, researchers and students will be released in 2010. In the popular and media realm Dr. Carlstedt, a former professional tennis player and full time consultant and coach on the professional tennis tours has been published and featured worldwide over 500 times, appearing in magazines, radio and television extending into more than 40 countries. His first book Mentales tennis (1995, SportInform; Munich) was published in German a language that Roland is fluent in. While on tour Roland consulted with Niki Pilic Captain of the winning German Davis Cup Team. He has also coached numerous top ranked juniors and professionals including Ronald Agenor former world ranked #22 and French Open quarter-finalist. He also worked with Rohan Goetzke, coach of Wimbledon Champion Richard Krajicek the year that he won the title. He most recently was featured in ESPN the Magazine, Golf Magazine, New York Times and on Inside Edition, Geraldo Live and Swiss Radio International. Roland has carried out over two hundred seminars, workshops and speaking engagements worldwide.



Hundreds of graduates have comparable accomplishments.

Precedents have been established that punish bloggers/posters for libelous comments and stating that one is expressing an opinion offers little protection. I will see to it that Saybrook University is made aware of this post, a post that is factually baseless, and one that can do great damage to a fine school. Hopefully they will pursue this matter legally.
 
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hahaha

Oh, the funny.
 
I just looked on APPIC to see Saybrook's match stats and zero perent of the students have matched to internship (something like 60 percent failed to match and 40 percent withdrew). How can anyone be licensed without an internship?
 
I just looked on APPIC to see Saybrook's match stats and zero perent of the students have matched to internship (something like 60 percent failed to match and 40 percent withdrew). How can anyone be licensed without an internship?


You obviously are uninformed about the licensing process in the vast majority of states. An APA approved internship is not mandated for licensure. There are hundreds of quality intern and residency sites throughout the nation that train psychologists, quite successfully. There are not enough APA internships available, but you are drinking the cool-aid if you think that the APA model is the gold standard. It is full of holes; but also powered by a huge lobbying body that is the APA. Thankfully, many states cherish their independence and recognize these flaws and the notion that a youngster with a Ph.D. is universally competent is absurd.

You and your fellow students have a lot to learn.

I might also add that such a match stat. is highly misleading since very few aspiring psychologists are going to apply for an internship that tacitly only accepts graduates from an APA-approved program if they did not graduate from one.

The fact that psychotherapies and treatment models are so disparate, and, yet, virtually any program orientation can achieve APA accreditation and benefit from its power (the APA) strongly suggests that it's more about the buck and power and control than high evidentiary clinical science. So buy into the propaganda but doing so will not make you a better clinician; nor will the illusion that your APA-based degree is somehow worth more than a non-APA approved degree.
 
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See you guys later. And, as for my biosketch, it speaks for itself and was posted to refute the erroneous assertions of PSYDR.

And, I will defend Saybrook to the end. One cannot summarily slander a school on the basis of conjecture and flat-out falsehoods and not think that one will be held accountable!
 
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There are now legal precedents relating to internet postings and what can be construed as slander. I'll leave it up to a court to decide whether the aforementioned PSYDR post qualifies. Just don't assume anymore that clever wording or an indirect reference will be enough to protect oneself.

Saybrook University was put into the category of "crook," ripping off and misleading students by the venerable PSYDR. Ok, now we'll see if those who are responsible for protecting the deserved integrity and reputation of the school and its graduates will take legal issue with PSYDR's baseless assertions and accusations that I construe to be libelous/slanderous.

Enough of this ancillary stuff, back to the real world and we'll see what happens.
 
Saybrookrules...

I don't understand your upset and defensive tone. Does slander deserve slander in return? Sure, maybe another person posting in this thread might be out of line, uninformed, or offending your alma mater... but this is, of course, the internet: where (educated?) people are able to decide on their own the validity of the information that they read.

On the other hand, you are speaking on behalf of a school that I am interested in. Actions speak louder than words... if I may be cliché. In your defense of Saybrook, and for my sake as a prospective student, it would probably be best if you simply stopped writing now.

Thank you everyone else for your replies.
 
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The fact that psychotherapies and treatment models are so disparate, and, yet, virtually any program orientation can achieve APA accreditation

That may indeed be an illusion, especially, if the non-apa approved individual is a superior snake-oil salesman.

Hilarious response 🙂

Since I did ask for opinions on the school, I am happy to see your different takes on APA accreditation. Although, as I have said twice... I am not interested in becoming a psychologist. By the time that I start (wherever), I will already be a practicing clinician. Sooooo.... I don't really care if a program has APA accreditation or not. Since I don't plan on re-clinician-ing myself, I actually assume that whatever PhD program I choose will NOT be APA accredited.

The title of this thread DOES say "non-clinical."

What I desire in the future is to teach at the collegiate/university level... which, as a counselor, would make sense for me to seek a PhD in Counseling/Counselor Education. Though, I don't want to pigeon-hole myself into just being able to teach in Counseling Psychology programs, since there exist many more psychology programs (undergrad) where I could also potentially teach. Advice/thoughts in this area would be helpful.

All opinions are welcome, and appreciated. Thanks especially to fsura001 for telling your experience.

If anyone reading this IS teaching in a college/university with a degree from Saybrook or ITP... chime in, please. If at all possible (maybe it's not), see if you can do it without name dropping or trying to sell your self. That actually would make a difference.
 
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If you're only interested in an academic phd (non-clinician), why not get on in a psych science of some sort (e.g., social psychology)?

Agreed. Bem does work on parapsych stuff, and there are a few other folks who do decently reputable work in that area. If you're going to go into a dicey area, much better to approach it scientifically.
 
What I desire in the future is to teach at the collegiate/university level... which, as a counselor, would make sense for me to seek a PhD in Counseling/Counselor Education. Though, I don't want to pigeon-hole myself into just being able to teach in Counseling Psychology programs, since there exist many more psychology programs (undergrad) where I could also potentially teach. Advice/thoughts in this area would be helpful.

It is worth noting that just because someone has a Counseling Psychology degree does not limit them to purely Counseling Psychology departments, particularly if you are considering work at the undergraduate level. Faculty at the undergraduate level are brought in to teach a range of courses, most of which are the "classics": Introduction to Psychology, Experimental, Statistics, etc.

If you are looking to secure a full-time academic position, be prepared to answer why you chose a different path because most academics are leery of anyone who didn't take a traditional path. Academia is just as competitive, if not more competitive now that there are less tenure track positions to go around, and it may be a hard sell to a university for them to hire someone from a niche area that is less well known. If you want to be a full-time academic, I'd strongly suggest pursuing a degree in a more traditional area, and from a more mainstream university.
 
Hi Hadashi no Gen,

I am familiar with ITP, have met many of their graduates, and for a while even had a therapist who graduated from there. S/he had amazing insight and helped me more than any other therapist I've ever used.

ITP is also very expensive. You will be taking on as much debt as a medical student, and unless you have a plan for generating lots of money after you graduate, your monthly student loan payments will take up most of your "disposable" income. I know someone who graduate from ITP approximately two years ago; his/her monthly student loan payments are about $900. That's $900 per month for the next 25 years.

State universities do not like to hire from outside their ranks. I think it's safe to say that a traditional 4-year state university is not going to hire someone from a school like ITP. You would be lucky to get on at a community college. However, there are many professional schools of psychology who would value and appreciate someone with a degree from ITP. Working in a professional school is very different from working in a state university, and I would encourage you to do your homework before setting out on this path.

I know absolutely nothing about Saybrook, other than the few chuckles one of their proponents gave me while reading this thread. 🙂

If you are set on pursuing a Third Wave education, I suggest you check out the State University of West Georgia. It's located in Carrollton, GA. It's fully accredited by the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools (it's a part of the University of Georgia system), but not APA accredited. They have a humanistic program that was actually founded by a student of Abraham Maslow. They offer a PsyD that follows a non-clinical humanistic track.

I've been told that Sonoma State University and Cal State Northridge (both universities located in California) offered humanistic-leaning curriculums but I have never investigated those schools so I can't speak to that. It might be worth spending a few minutes on their websites if you are so inclined.

Best of luck to you. And please feel free to shoot me a private message if you have any specific questions about what I've said above.
 
Is anyone else amused by the fact that it seems like anytime someone says something bad about a school on these forums, one of their students/graduates shows up and proves to everyone the bias is justified in a failed attempt to defend it?
 
If you are set on pursuing a Third Wave education, I suggest you check out the State University of West Georgia. It's located in Carrollton, GA. It's fully accredited by the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools (it's a part of the University of Georgia system), but not APA accredited. They have a humanistic program that was actually founded by a student of Abraham Maslow. They offer a PsyD that follows a non-clinical humanistic track.

I've been told that Sonoma State University and Cal State Northridge (both universities located in California) offered humanistic-leaning curriculums but I have never investigated those schools so I can't speak to that. It might be worth spending a few minutes on their websites if you are so inclined.

Thanks! I will look into these programs for sure. One question though... I am a bit confused about SUWG's PsyD, in that you mention it being non-clinical. Since it's non-clinical... what is keeping it from being a PhD? Since PsyD's normally focus on the clinical aspects of Psychology, leaving out the research element that would make it a PhD... it seems as though a non-clinical PsyD might help me out less than a degree from the aforementioned institutions. In other words: it sounds sketchy.
 
I sent you a private message...feel free to email me and I can get you in touch with a few people teaching with Saybrook degrees. I love and appreciate humanistic/existential psychotherapy 😀
 
Although I am sure that some biases exist here regarding the practice of psychotherapy, I am very interested in hearing any of your opinions.

Currently I am in a Masters program, seeking professional licensure as a Clinical Mental Health Counselor. Coming from an educational background, I would love to teach university some day, and because of this I have been considering a PhD.

My question is not about a PhD in Counselor Education, rather, it is with regard to whether-or-not a non-clinical PhD in Psychology would benefit my career in anyway. I do not want to be a clinical psychologist, but I have found some programs that (I believe) could give me an advantage as a professional, would allow me to incorporate my creative passions, and would accommodate my family/personal life. Two of which I have become interested are online, through the Institute of Transpersonal Psychology and Saybrook University (formerly Saybrook Grad. Inst.).

Here are the pros:

ITP...
* My interest in Transpersonal Psych (as well as the areas of parapsychology & phenomenon).
* The online PhD allows for 1 year of Advanced Standing.
* Emphasis on Creativity.
* Required residential seminars are few, but close to where I live.

Saybrook...
* The school's focus on Humanistic theory, and openness to ideology similar to that of ITP.
* Specialization in Jungian Studies.
* Emphasis on Creativity.
* Frequent residential seminars.

What are your thoughts? To bring a bit of order to my rambling...

1. In what areas would a non-clinical PhD in Psychology allow me to teach in a University setting?

2. Would either school/program benefit my clinical or private practice as an established mental health counselor/therapist?

3. What are your thoughts on either school?

Thanks!

I personally would not focus on a clinical path if that is not where my passion was centered. I just completed the PhD program at Saybrook and it is extremely rigorous. Universities are looking for faculty in developmental, experimental, forensic and organizational psychology. I ended up with three concentrations in order to make myself more employable. Saybrook was not APA approved when I went through, but I took the courses to meet APA standards. You do need to know that "Brick and Mortar" schools still have a bias against Distance Education programs. Also, I have run into the reality that most "Brick and Mortar" schools will only look at potential faculty from APA schools. However, the future is in Distance Education. I currently teach on-line for two different schools. I enjoy the work and the pay is good. I would need at least two more teaching contracts in order to walk away from my day-job.
 
OT, but someone I know had a faculty member with a clinical PhD from Saybrook on their dissertation committee.

I will say that this faculty member did manage to get tenure at a pretty respectable university--though in the counselor ed department, not the psychology department, despite the (IMO) questionable PhD institution and a pretty meek publication record, which I found surprising. However, this was 20-ish years ago, so the academic climate may have been different back them. Also, the person appears to be licensed at the MA level, not as psychologist.

Anyway, semi-relevant n=1. I still wouldn't "gamble" on a PhD from Saybrook, though, clinical or non-clinical. It seems like it would shut a lot of doors in academia and clinically, minus, perhaps, private practice.
 
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See you guys later. And, as for my biosketch, it speaks for itself and was posted to refute the erroneous assertions of PSYDR.

And, I will defend Saybrook to the end. One cannot summarily slander a school on the basis of conjecture and flat-out falsehoods and not think that one will be held accountable!

To the end of what? Do you have classes on mood stabilizers at Saybrook?
 
For being a message board supposedly full of psychologists, isn't it funny how many crazyass posts like this one there are?
 
To the end of what? Do you have classes on mood stabilizers at Saybrook?

haha. well done.I have been away from SDN for about a month..and I come back to this...and-it-is-AWESOME!I love the massive cognitive dissonance and fragile shell keeping the integrity of the amazing Saybrook doctor together. If but a tiny crack is perturbed by a criticism of the alma matre, the shell breaks and it's hello Lamictal!
 
Can someone get a good job if he or she graduates from Saybrook University?
 
Can someone get a good job if he or she graduates from Saybrook University?

Yes. I know people who have done so. However, they are self-promoters in the extreme and have had to work twice as hard as somebody from an APA-accredited institution, to get half as far. It also depends on what you think a "good" job is. There are a lot of jobs that will not consider you due to the lack of APA accreditation. Make no mistake, it will limit your options in comparison to going to an APA-accredited program. In circles that respect the type of work they do, it is better than, say, ITP (now called Sofia University I guess) or CIIS. However, there are comparatively few people who are interested in giving you money for these things, and even then they are likely to prefer those with degrees from schools with somewhat more traditional roots. It's a risk I would not take personally, especially if you are looking for a tenure-track position in academia or similar types of research-oriented or supervisory positions. If your aspirations are a little lower and you are committed completely to this way of seeing things above all other things in your life and willing to spend all of your time on career advancement only, you could make worse choices.
 
Can someone get a good job if he or she graduates from Saybrook University?

1. Not APA-acred
2. Very poor APPIC match rate
3. Poor reputation, based on what I've seen and read in the actual field.
4. Highly competitive market
5. More hurdles to get licensed (bc it lacks APA-acred)

...and I'm sure the list can go on.

This is a possibility v. probability scenario. CAN someone get a good job....possibly. Is it probable, not based on what is listed above.
 
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