Ivy League (Wharton) student thinking about taking pre reqs at an easier school

[Joesmoe2]

Hi All,
I've been a long time user of SDN but I'd like to keep my confidentiality to not reveal myself.
I've just started my first year at Wharton's undergraduate business school at the University of Pennsylvania. I decided to take chem 1 as an elective course, but unfortunately I am planning to drop the class. The science courses here are impossible to receive As in (due to the curve) and difficult to manage along with the Wharton curriculum. My question is can I still get into a U.S medical school if I take my pre reqs at a state university over the summer? I am sure that I will perform better at the state university as I have taken and done well in science classes that I took there prior to entering Penn. I feel that it would be better to get an A at a state university rather than receiving Bs and Cs here at Penn. I'd really appreciate any feedback as my drop deadline is approaching soon.
Thanks everyone.

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[Moosepig]

Hi All,
I've been a long time user of SDN but I'd like to keep my confidentiality to not reveal myself.
I've just started my first year at Wharton's undergraduate business school at the University of Pennsylvania. I decided to take chem 1 as an elective course, but unfortunately I am planning to drop the class. The science courses here are impossible to receive As in (due to the curve) and difficult to manage along with the Wharton curriculum. My question is can I still get into a U.S medical school if I take my pre reqs at a state university over the summer? I am sure that I will perform better at the state university as I have taken and done well in science classes that I took there prior to entering Penn. I feel that it would be better to get an A at a state university rather than receiving Bs and Cs here at Penn. I'd really appreciate any feedback as my drop deadline is approaching soon.
Thanks everyone.

Doing so is looked down upon. If its seriously looked down upon or just less than optimal I can't tell you, hopefully cat or goro can. That being said, the fact that you're getting As probably balances any subconscious dislike for what you're doing, so I say its a good idea.

Now here's a bigger idea entirely. Are you going to be able to make As in your business classes? GPA > UG prestige, so it might be worth going somewhere easier if medicine is your passion. This information is of course irrelevant if you're planning to do MD/MBA or something else auspicious.

 

[Joesmoe2]

Doing so is looked down upon. If its seriously looked down upon or just less than optimal I can't tell you, hopefully cat or goro can. That being said, the fact that you're getting As probably balances any subconscious dislike for what you're doing, so I say its a good idea.

Now here's a bigger idea entirely. Are you going to be able to make As in your business classes? GPA > UG prestige, so it might be worth going somewhere easier if medicine is your passion. This information is of course irrelevant if you're planning to do MD/MBA or something else auspicious.

Yes, I'm doing well in my business courses. Medicine is my passion and I do eventually want to become a doctor (I don't care from where, as long as its in the U.S), but I am really enjoying the Wharton curriculum and I don't think I'd be able to give it up. My eventual goal is to start my own private practice/small business as a physician.

 

[sliceofbread136]

It will look bad if u do

 

[Moosepig]

Yes, I'm doing well in my business courses. Medicine is my passion and I do eventually want to become a doctor (I don't care from where, as long as its in the U.S), but I am really enjoying the Wharton curriculum and I don't think I'd be able to give it up. My eventual goal is to start my own private practice/small business as a physician.

If you can pull the grades then more power to you!

 

[ashylarry23]

it is not impossible to receive As in science courses at penn... you just gotta put in the work

 

[Ismet]

My two cents....take it or leave it.

If an interviewer asks you why you took your science courses at a different school, what would you say? That you wanted easier science classes so you could get A's? That doesn't look too good. What makes you different from the other pre-meds at Penn who are taking those science classes? It's not impossible to receive an A, you just have to work harder to earn it.

Also, you're a freshman. It's October. Maybe you've had one or two bad exams? College science courses require a lot of adjustment from high school, and you might flounder a few times before figuring out what works for you. If I were you, I wouldn't give up just yet. Maybe find a tutor and finish out the semester. Even if you do receive a B or C, it's not the end of the world. Adcoms understand that freshman year, especially the first semester, is an adjustment period. A strong upward trend (learning from your mistakes and improving) can counter a few poor grades in your first year.

If medicine is truly your passion and you find that you cannot balance pre-med requirements with the Wharton curriculum, you should consider dropping Wharton. Many schools have an MD/MBA program so you can still have the best of both worlds. Keep in mind that a lot of pre-meds who graduate in 4 years are taking 2 science courses at one time, and also that taking pre-reqs over the summer is often more difficult than taking them during the semester due to the faster pace.

 

[darkjedi]

It would look terrible and readily evident that you took the easy way out. As I understood it the Wharton ugrad classes have a steeper curve than the science classes do.

Either take the classes at Penn, or wait until you graduate and do a formal postbac like at Bryn Mawr, which I would actually suggest over doing premed in college.

 

[Joesmoe2]

What if the state school was a top 50 school in the country? Also, though the Wharton curve may be somewhat steeper than the science curves, the students in the science courses are much more competitive. It is doable to receive As in science courses at Penn, however the Wharton classes take up much of my time as they are graded on a curve as well. I guess I can tell Adcoms that I had many requirements to fulfill for my Wharton degree and therefore had to take my science courses over the summer (at a uni that was much cheaper as well).

 

[darkjedi]

What if the state school was a top 50 school in the country? Also, though the Wharton curve may be somewhat steeper than the science curves, the students in the science courses are much more competitive. It is doable to receive As in science courses at Penn, however the Wharton classes take up much of my time as they are graded on a curve as well. I guess I can tell Adcoms that I had many requirements to fulfill for my Wharton degree and therefore had to take my science courses over the summer (at a uni that was much cheaper as well).

As I mentioned before, consider the possibility of just doing a postbac after graduation. It's a much better way to approach applying to med school I think.

 

[ShenanigansMD]

What if the state school was a top 50 school in the country?

I agree. A state school is not necessarily gonna make pre-reqs easier.

I'm gonna "updescend" here and ask since when do ALL state schools offer easier classes? That category encompasses a lot of universities.

Btw what % of SDNers are Ivy undergrads?

 

[passerine]

I agree. A state school is not necessarily gonna make pre-reqs easier.

I second this. I'm in my senior year at a top 50 state school and I'm not so sure that you'd have an easier time. Obviously, I'm not in your classes at Penn so I can't vouch for their difficulty, but I can vouch for the fact that all of my hardest pre-reqs had the grade distribution set in advance; for instance, in my organic lab, only 2 people in my section of 16 could receive As--and when your classes are 500+ people, having those curves in advance can make it really hard to be in the top X percent of the class.

Solution: Myedu is your friend! Look at the grade distributions and ratings for each professor to figure out who is the best teacher and/or who gives the most As (depending on which is more important to you)-- a lot of times there can be a lot of grading policy variation even in the same department and for the same course.

 

[pasiley]

I agree. A state school is not necessarily gonna make pre-reqs easier.

I'm gonna "updescend" here and ask since when do ALL state schools offer easier classes? That category encompasses a lot of universities.

Btw what % of SDNers are Ivy undergrads?

Very good advice in this thread. Wait until you finish and then do a post bacc elsewhere.

Also not all state schools are easier. Private schools are actually better known for grade inflation. A full 0.3 points higher average GPA than public schools.

But for financial reasons, sometimes state schools are the best option for post-baccs.

I have been to 2 state schools. 1 lived up to the "easy" stereotype and the other most definitely did not. Make sure when you are looking for a post-bacc program you look to see who your competition in science classes may be. Schools that don't have higher standards for admission for science majors are your friend.

 

[mimelim]

I found the title of this thread worthy of a good chuckle. Did you feel the need to remind us what schools are Ivy League or just somehow think the Ivy's curriculums are intrinsically more similar to each other than curriculums everywhere else?

And to simply echo what others have said. It looks bad to do all of your pre-reqs somewhere else. It is one thing to take a class or two because of circumstance, but this is different. Nobody looks at the details of individual classes, but if there is an obvious trend, it will get noticed. Taking pre-reqs elsewhere is odd enough to get looked into further and asked about. "It was too hard for me to get A's at my home institution" is not a good explanation. Yes, you can lie and come up with a story, but that brings with it its own problems.

 

[dance13021]

Hi All,
I've been a long time user of SDN but I'd like to keep my confidentiality to not reveal myself.
I've just started my first year at Wharton's undergraduate business school at the University of Pennsylvania. I decided to take chem 1 as an elective course, but unfortunately I am planning to drop the class. The science courses here are impossible to receive As in (due to the curve) and difficult to manage along with the Wharton curriculum. My question is can I still get into a U.S medical school if I take my pre reqs at a state university over the summer? I am sure that I will perform better at the state university as I have taken and done well in science classes that I took there prior to entering Penn. I feel that it would be better to get an A at a state university rather than receiving Bs and Cs here at Penn. I'd really appreciate any feedback as my drop deadline is approaching soon.
Thanks everyone.

Maybe. Try to get some work history first tho

 

[LizzyM]

Yes, I'm doing well in my business courses. Medicine is my passion and I do eventually want to become a doctor (I don't care from where, as long as its in the U.S), but I am really enjoying the Wharton curriculum and I don't think I'd be able to give it up. My eventual goal is to start my own private practice/small business as a physician.

Private practice as a small business is going the way of the mom and pop grocery store.

Schools will judge you by your gpa and where you did your classes. Penn ranks among the best, most state schools are middle or low ranked. So, do you want to present yourself as a Penn student/graduate applying for medical school or as a State college student applying for admission?

Also, are you preparing for a job (self-employed physician) that is unlikely to exist two decades from now?

 

[alamofire]

x

 

[ShenanigansMD]

I studied engineering at an Ivy and took a few summer courses at a my home state school. In my experience, the state-school science courses were significantly easier than at the ivy. The material and pace of prereqs will be difficult wherever you study, but at an ivy, I found that my classmates there studied twice as hard making it far more difficult to stay ahead of the curve.

OP, I suggest a postbacc if you do not wish to take the prereqs at U penn. However, I think it would be worth trying to complete them at your institution. You are at a great school and in a great position to learn the material from world-class instructors and many people here envy your circumstances. Also, if you can excel at your prereqs at U penn, you will be setup for success on the MCAT.

That wasn't my point. There's a big difference between Berkeley/Michigan/Virginia and Chico State.

Then again, my assumptions are speaking here since I don't know anything about Chico State... cue the flame war.

 

[09ine]

Private practice as a small business is going the way of the mom and pop grocery store.

Schools will judge you by your gpa and where you did your classes. Penn ranks among the best, most state schools are middle or low ranked. So, do you want to present yourself as a Penn student/graduate applying for medical school or as a State college student applying for admission?

Also, are you preparing for a job (self-employed physician) that is unlikely to exist two decades from now?

What does that imply? Sorry I'm behind on that and was wondering if you suggested that private practices aren't viable.

 

[pasiley]

OP, I suggest a postbacc if you do not wish to take the prereqs at U penn. However, I think it would be worth trying to complete them at your institution. You are at a great school and in a great position to learn the material from world-class instructors and many people here envy your circumstances. Also, if you can excel at your prereqs at U penn, you will be setup for success on the MCAT.

From my experience, the lower ranked and easier school had much better professors. Their main focus is teaching and it comes before research. Most higher ranking schools, research always comes before teaching and most are terrible teachers. OP if you take your pre-reqs at Penn, get ready to learn on your own. It's a good skill to pick up anyways.

However, I know if I have to reapply I will have fabulous LORs from my "easy" state school and they approached me about writing me an LOR, I don't even have to ask. I have some pretty good LORs from my old school but the professors never took time to get to know their students the way my professors do now.

You will get an education that prepares you for medical school almost anywhere. It's up to you on how much you want to spend on undergrad, what will keep you competitive, and what suits your style. Lower tier state schools (I'm not talking about flagships) are cheaper, have better professors (better LORs), easier, etc.

On another note: Why all the hate on state schools? Most Flagship state schools are pretty competitive these days. Per the data, private schools are the ones notorious for grade inflation.

 

[Joesmoe2]

Before entering Penn, I took a few pre med requisites (including gen chem 1, physics, bio, etc) at two state schools during my junior and senior year in high school. I received As in all of the courses I took at the state schools. At Penn, I'm barely above average in gen chem class. Yeah it's easy to tell someone to suck it up and move on, but I don't think many people here understand what its like to balance Wharton and Pre med. I'm not aiming to get into Harvard Med or Penn Med; I'll be more than happy with an MD degree from podunk allopathic medical school. Has anyone been accepted into medical school by taking pre reqs at a different uni over the summer? Maybe someone who has been in the same situation as me can comment.

 

[ShenanigansMD]

On another note: Why all the hate on state schools? Most Flagship state schools are pretty competitive these days. Per the data, private schools are the ones notorious for grade inflation.

+1

And our football teams are actually worth watching.

 

[pasiley]

Just because the higher-ranking school you attended did not have good professors does not mean all higher-ranking schools don't have good professors. The idea that professors from higher-ranking schools are only concerned about their research is a complete myth. Perhaps this is true among state schools (I suspect it is), but in my experience, accomplished professors at private schools enjoy teaching (if they didn't, they'd probably go elsewhere because my institution requires them to teach undergraduates). Private schools are much smaller than state schools and, if anything, offer a better opportunity to meet professors.

The data don't take the context into consideration: the students at top private schools are much more competitive.

There are also many, many, low tier private schools that are not only noncompetitive but have a tremendous amount of grade inflation. Each school is different and unfortunately med schools like to pretend there is little difference.

 

[Praefectus]

Hi All,
I've been a long time user of SDN but I'd like to keep my confidentiality to not reveal myself.
I've just started my first year at Wharton's undergraduate business school at the University of Pennsylvania. I decided to take chem 1 as an elective course, but unfortunately I am planning to drop the class. The science courses here are impossible to receive As in (due to the curve) and difficult to manage along with the Wharton curriculum. My question is can I still get into a U.S medical school if I take my pre reqs at a state university over the summer? I am sure that I will perform better at the state university as I have taken and done well in science classes that I took there prior to entering Penn. I feel that it would be better to get an A at a state university rather than receiving Bs and Cs here at Penn. I'd really appreciate any feedback as my drop deadline is approaching soon.
Thanks everyone.

Oh really? I'm glad that you're able to keep your school confidential.

 

[redpanda]

Before entering Penn, I took a few pre med requisites (including gen chem 1, physics, bio, etc) at two state schools during my junior and senior year in high school. I received As in all of the courses I took at the state schools. At Penn, I'm barely above average in gen chem class. Yeah it's easy to tell someone to suck it up and move on, but I don't think many people here understand what its like to balance Wharton and Pre med. I'm not aiming to get into Harvard Med or Penn Med; I'll be more than happy with an MD degree from podunk allopathic medical school. Has anyone been accepted into medical school by taking pre reqs at a different uni over the summer? Maybe someone who has been in the same situation as me can comment.

I think the advice you have gotten here has been pretty solid, but I would add one thing. It's probably better to get broken of the mindset of being a big fish in a small pond earlier rather than later (i.e. med school) and, well, a big workload is something you're going to get used to permanently in med school. Adjust now and save yourself the stress of thinking (like most pre-MS1s) that you can be the best kid in the med school.

 

[LizzyM]

Good luck getting a committee letter from Penn (and they do send a well regarded two page letter with supporting letters appended) if you take all of the pre-reqs at a podunk state college. (I think we are speaking her of a small-time state college and not a flagship "public Ivy".)

With regard to the economic feasibility of private practice as a small business in the 21th century, this is being phased out in favor of hospital owned medical practices and multi-specialty group practices, and large, multi-site specialty practices. What is happening in medicine I could see reflected in this book about grocery practices in the 20th century:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904875404576530894140394126.html

 

[poodleernie]

My undergrad degree is from Wharton and I completed the pre-med requirements on the side as my "elective" courses. I just got accepted to medical school for next fall. PM me if you think I might be able to help you.

 

[cuculici1]

I would try to get them done as an undergrad. After all, you're paying $50k+ a year to go there, so you might as well include your prereqs in that bill. Here's what I would do. You have four years to complete your prereqs, so space them out. Take one each year, so that by the time you graduate you will be done, and the workload will be more evenly distributed (and thus less intense). We're talking about 1-2 extra classes a semester added to your Wharton schedule which should be very doable. Take the MCAT after you graduate, and then apply. This route would force a gap year but should work out. Adcoms are going to ask why you took all your prereqs at a state school, and you need to have a better reason besides "I wanted to get better grades". Postbac programs are another option, but those cost a lot of money on top of your Penn education. As such, I would try to finish the prereqs in undergrad (if possible).

 

[chemsmith]

Why would you want to take a less strenuous course if you enjoy learning? For a better grade? This logic will be quite transparent on your transcripts IMO.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

What does that imply? Sorry I'm behind on that and was wondering if you suggested that private practices aren't viable.

They really aren't. It's going to be an very rare event from now on that you can just go set up shop somewhere and open your own practice. Hospitals are buying up every good practice they can get their hands on and larger practices are swallowing up all the smaller ones. Reimbursement cuts mean that some types of specialties can only really operate at large volume while using the existing administrative infrastructure of a hospital or larger healthcare system. It also allows hospitals to achieve the vaunted "care coordination" because all the doctors are now (hopefully) using the same EMR and all have access to the same records. Here's an NYT article about it:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/health/policy/26docs.html?pagewanted=all

 

[canibeadrplease]

It's really going to hurt you to take pre-med classes elsewhere (especially if you take ALL of them elsewhere). Also, don't assume they'll be easier at a state school. I went to an Ivy (where people were competitive and classes were graded on curves - but trust me, it's not impossible to get A's), and my brother went to a state school. I looked at his exams, and they were definitely not any easier.

 

[TriagePreMed]

Don't Ivy schools already have a reputation of inflating grades?

Anyway, you should do your pre-med work at UPenn. Doing it anywhere else will only serve to lower your chances. If you can't get As, that is your own fault. You were accepted to UPenn because you have the same capacity as all other of their students.

 

[anon3]

If that's what you need to get As, I'd do it. My brother did about half his prereqs at community college in the summers and told me noone even mentioned it on his way to UCSF med. If you leave no doubt as to your academic credentials (3.9-4.0 gpa), I doubt anyone is going to challenge you on dodging classes or even waste time looking at your transcript. Figure out what prereqs at penn are easy and take them for your LoRs and committee letter.

I'm suprised though. Private schools are there to help you, hence the grade inflation, committee letters, counselors and advisors you wouldn't get at a state school. That's why you pay the $$$. Last I checked, penn was just as culpable of grade inflation as other private schools.

 

[anon3]

doublepost

 

[Double A]

please do not listen to the people telling you to forego the prereq classes all together with plans to do a postbac. that is silly, terrible advice. if you arent going to college to learn what you need to know to do the job you want to do, then what are you doing? i realize that people change their minds or perform poorly and need to do a postbac... but planning to do it from the beginning...

 

[A7X]

You may have to choose one over the other if you want a decent GPA and if you feel you can't handle it.