Ivy School vs. non ivy

[malish]

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I am a returning student and was accepted into an Ivy school and a state school to complete my undergrad. I know that the classes are much more difficult at Ivy and it will be much more difficult to get a high GPA. Given that I have an option to go to either one of these schools, can anyone comment on how med schools differentiate between students coming out of Ivy League schools vs. other other schools? Does the type of school have any weight in the acceptance process?

 

[ar2388]

ivy's are not necessarily more difficult... also, i have heard it from the mouth of a former admissions director at a med school info night at Columbia that we will get some leniency for a mediocre grade bc of we came from Columbia... i dont know if its just him, but thats wat he told all of us there.

 

[malish]

thanks for responding! when you say mediocre grades what range of a GPA are you thinking of?

 

[ar2388]

i assume the guy meant if you get something like a B/B- in orgo or bio or soething along those lines.

 

[malish]

actually in my original post when I said I got accepted into Ivy I was talking about Columbia U. It sounds like you are at Columbia and so you might know this. Do you know if there is any published distribution of Columbia student GPAs applying/getting accepted into MD/DO schools? I found this for Rutgers by simply searching online, but can't find anything like that for Columbia. Thank you!

 

[ar2388]

sadly, not as far as i know... sorry 🙁

 

[malish]

Another question... Columbia gives students who have a GPA of 3.0 and above a supporting committee letter. However, other schools I've looked at have a much higher requirement for a committee letter - GPA of 3.5 or 3.6. Why do you think Columbia gives these letters for pretty low GPAs? especially considering that to get into Med School you need at least around a 3.4.

 

[Jolie South]

i would go to the school that you like the best and that will put you in the least amount of debt.

i wouldn't worry about impressing the adcoms with a name. you'll do your best where you're the most comfortable and being loads in debt this early in your education would be a big bummer.

 

[atomi]

I am a returning student and was accepted into an Ivy school and a state school to complete my undergrad. I know that the classes are much more difficult at Ivy and it will be much more difficult to get a high GPA. Given that I have an option to go to either one of these schools, can anyone comment on how med schools differentiate between students coming out of Ivy League schools vs. other other schools? Does the type of school have any weight in the acceptance process?

The only people who care about ivy league schools are ivy league schools. I say let them rot in their own filth.

I remember talking to someone from UPenn and they said they would look down on all courses from schools without the 'academic prestige' of UPenn. Jerks. What they don't understand is that outside of their academic fantasy world, nobody really gives a ****. These people would last all of 1 day in industry before being fired.

My advice is to steer as far away from the Harvards, Penns, and Yales of the world as you can.

 

[linguini]

The only people who care about ivy league schools are ivy league schools. I say let them rot in their own filth.

I remember talking to someone from UPenn and they said they would look down on all courses from schools without the 'academic prestige' of UPenn. Jerks. What they don't understand is that outside of their academic fantasy world, nobody really gives a ****. These people would last all of 1 day in industry before being fired.

My advice is to steer as far away from the Harvards, Penns, and Yales of the world as you can.

Hmmm, that's kind of a blatant generalization. I definitely don't think you have to go to an Ivy to get an amazing education but Ivys are Ivys for a reason...there's no basis to say that they are, as you put it, "filth."

To the OP, go to the school that you like, regardless of the Ivy title. I went to a non-Ivy with a really great science program and they gave me a scholarship...probably best decision I made to date. The money issue is a big deal for many people (not sure how much your parents can/will help you out) Remember that most medical schools cost a fortune. It'd be nice to have fewer loans to pay back by the time you're applying.

 

[malish]

I'm a non traditional student... have a degree from another country from about 8 yrs ago.. I have a family (wife/daughter) so the cost of these schools will be covered by me unfortunately. Any idea on how Rutgers pre-med students fare in getting into med schools?

 

[TupacalipseT96]

Go to Columbia and do well.
At the end of the day it'll open more doors than could possible be closed.
If they accepted you, you'll be fine.

 

[giacalonenj]

I'm a non traditional student... have a degree from another country from about 8 yrs ago.. I have a family (wife/daughter) so the cost of these schools will be covered by me unfortunately. Any idea on how Rutgers pre-med students fare in getting into med schools?

I think you are looking at this the wrong way. The ability of Rutgers pre-meds to get into medical school has nothing to do with your ability. If you work hard, maintain a 3.7+, do well on the MCAT, dedicate yourself to some exciting and interesting ECs, you will not have a problem.

 

[student1799]

I am a returning student and was accepted into an Ivy school and a state school to complete my undergrad. I know that the classes are much more difficult at Ivy and it will be much more difficult to get a high GPA. Given that I have an option to go to either one of these schools, can anyone comment on how med schools differentiate between students coming out of Ivy League schools vs. other other schools? Does the type of school have any weight in the acceptance process?

PLEASE, for your own good, go with the state school. I went to an Ivy undergrad school and an Ivy postbacc program (I think the same one where you've been admitted). Ivy League schools can give you a great education (although that's by no means guaranteed). But from a med school admissions standpoint, you're MUCH better off going to State U, where the classes may be less rigorous and you can get a higher GPA. Despite what you might have heard--especially at the Ivy postbacc programs themselves--med school admissions is virtually all about grades and MCAT scores, and there seems to be virtually no adjustment for the rigor of the school you went to. So you're putting yourself at a disadvantage by going to a program where your GPA is likely to be lower.

There have been endless arguments on other threads in which many students have claimed that Ivy schools have rampant grade inflation. First of all, that wasn't necessarily the case when I went to undergrad (which was more than 20 years ago), but if it is true today, I'd say it applies much more to humanities and social sciences than to the "hard" sciences, especially premed classes. In the postbacc I went to (where the students take regular undergrad premed classes), the grading was quite tough.

Many students from non-Ivy schools claim that their premed classes are more rigorous than at Ivies, because they are curved to a low median grade such as a C. (In the postbacc I attended, most classes were curved to a B, with a few profs using a B-.) However, it's not just the curve--there's a huge difference in the level of work you're being asked to do to get that median grade. As an example, there was a big discussion a few weeks ago in a thread about orgo, in which people compared notes about what their exams were like. Based on those posts, I'd say that any one of my orgo MIDTERMS was harder than the final exams at a lot of other schools. (For instance, we routinely had to do 10-step syntheses and complex mechanisms on midterms, while many students elsewhere never had to do more than 2 or 3 steps.)

But, leaving aside all the abstract arguments about whose school is harder than whose, I would strongly stress that you want to go to the EASIER of the two schools. You'd be much better off, hypothetically speaking, with a 4.0 from Podunk U than a 3.5 from Harvard.

 

[Jolie South]

I'm a non traditional student... have a degree from another country from about 8 yrs ago.. I have a family (wife/daughter) so the cost of these schools will be covered by me unfortunately. Any idea on how Rutgers pre-med students fare in getting into med schools?

then do your best at the cheapest reputable school that you can get into. work hard, get involved, and you'll be fine.

 

[atomi]

Hmmm, that's kind of a blatant generalization. I definitely don't think you have to go to an Ivy to get an amazing education but Ivys are Ivys for a reason...there's no basis to say that they are, as you put it, "filth."

To the OP, go to the school that you like, regardless of the Ivy title. I went to a non-Ivy with a really great science program and they gave me a scholarship...probably best decision I made to date. The money issue is a big deal for many people (not sure how much your parents can/will help you out) Remember that most medical schools cost a fortune. It'd be nice to have fewer loans to pay back by the time you're applying.

Borrowing money to go to an ivy-league school instead of going to a state school and having no debt for undergrad is probably the dumbest decision anyone could ever make. It amazes me that people are smart enough to get into an ivy school then do something so incredibly stupid like getting themselves $150k in debt at age 22. My friend came out of Cornell like that. Guess what, I went to state school and had the same job as him and we had the same salary right out of college. Except he had to fork over 1/2 of his net pay to student loan repayments. He was literally barely able to get by. Smart...

 

[atomi]

you're MUCH better off going to State U, where the classes may be less rigorous and you can get a higher GPA. Despite what you might have heard--especially at the Ivy postbacc programs themselves--med school admissions is virtually all about grades and MCAT scores, and there seems to be virtually no adjustment for the rigor of the school you went to. So you're putting yourself at a disadvantage by going to a program where your GPA is likely to be lower.

However, it's not just the curve--there's a huge difference in the level of work you're being asked to do to get that median grade. As an example, there was a big discussion a few weeks ago in a thread about orgo, in which people compared notes about what their exams were like. Based on those posts, I'd say that any one of my orgo MIDTERMS was harder than the final exams at a lot of other schools.

This is b.s.

Undergraduate course material is the same everywhere. Biology is biology is biology. The same **** is taught at every 4-year college. The only real difference is the professor. Professors don't care about the academic level of their class or the institution they're from. Some of them are hardasses and some are ultra-megaeasy. There are plenty of hard and easy professors at both 'IVY' and state schools.

 

[student1799]

This is b.s.

Undergraduate course material is the same everywhere. Biology is biology is biology. The same **** is taught at every 4-year college. The only real difference is the professor. Professors don't care about the academic level of their class or the institution they're from. Some of them are hardasses and some are ultra-megaeasy. There are plenty of hard and easy professors at both 'IVY' and state schools.

I'm glad you think that "undergrad course material is the same everywhere," but that's just not true. I totally agree with you that every school has harder and easier professors, but the institution itself (i.e. the academic department) does have some influence over the difficulty of the classes, because they set the minimum standards for the course syllabi. If a prof wants to demand more than the minimum, they're free to do so, but they can't fall below it. Based on my experience, the Ivy schools tend to set the minimum at a higher level than other institutions.

I gave a concrete example of this (orgo exams) in my previous post, but that's not the only one I know of. Here's another: in my bio lecture, I sat next to a student who had transferred in from William and Mary. She told me she had thought W&M was a good school [and most other people would say that too], but when she arrived at this second place, she was amazed at how much harder it was. She said that for a given class, there was about 50% more work at the Ivy school than at W&M.

I think it's pretty funny that you're so hell-bent on putting down the Ivy league schools, when I myself--who actually attended two of them--advised the OP against finishing his degree at an Ivy. And it wasn't just about grades--I noted that it was "by no means guaranteed" that you'd get a superior education at those schools. What is it exactly that you need to prove, and to whom?

 

[searun]

Borrowing money to go to an ivy-league school instead of going to a state school and having no debt for undergrad is probably the dumbest decision anyone could ever make. It amazes me that people are smart enough to get into an ivy school then do something so incredibly stupid like getting themselves $150k in debt at age 22. My friend came out of Cornell like that. Guess what, I went to state school and had the same job as him and we had the same salary right out of college. Except he had to fork over 1/2 of his net pay to student loan repayments. He was literally barely able to get by. Smart...

Actually most Ivy league schools have phenomenal financial aid. I think Princeton is tuition free for kids from working class backgrounds and the tuition costs for middle class kids is quite low. In many cases, it is cheaper to attend the Ivy League school than the state school because of tuition grants.

I attend an Ivy league med school but I did not attend an Ivy league undergrad. I have noticed that most of my med school classmates graduated from Ivy League undergrad schools, plus schools like Duke, Johns Hopkins, and Stanford. It does seem like students from an Ivy League background have an edge in getting admitted to the top med schools, although that is not my background. But statistically, I am confident that I am right based upon personal observation.

Now, of course, we can argue about whether or not graduating from a top ten med school confers any advantage in obtaining a competitive residency, but that is not the subject of the OP's post.

My point is that the financial argument against attending an Ivy League school does not hold water, given the huge endowments of Ivies and the remarkable financial aid packages now available. Of course, if you were born with the proverbial silver spoon in your mouth, then the folks will pay full bore. But if that is the case, you would not have massive debt anyway because Pops wrote the check. Now if the folks are rich, but will not write the check, then you are screwed and you should have picked better parents.

 

[footballrules]

The only people who care about ivy league schools are ivy league schools. I say let them rot in their own filth.

I remember talking to someone from UPenn and they said they would look down on all courses from schools without the 'academic prestige' of UPenn. Jerks. What they don't understand is that outside of their academic fantasy world, nobody really gives a ****. These people would last all of 1 day in industry before being fired.

My advice is to steer as far away from the Harvards, Penns, and Yales of the world as you can.

Exactly.

one of the benefits of going to an Ivy school are the resources and network that you can build with alumni. Where I went to college, there are no significant alumni that you can really build a strong network with. Sure there are some managers, teachers, scientists and doctors that went to my undergraduate school, but none of them are dean of students at anything, no ceo's, no high level corporate people, or anything of the like.

Going to an Ivy school also puts you in a better situtation for getting your first job outside of college. I've learned this first hand.

 

[student1799]

Actually most Ivy league schools have phenomenal financial aid.

You're quite right when it comes to Harvard, Yale and Princeton. But at the school the OP was considering (Columbia), the financial aid is nowhere near that good, because Columbia's endowment is much smaller.

On top of that, the OP was probably admitted to Columbia's School of General Studies (aka GS), which grants BA degrees to non-traditional students. (The postbacc program is also part of GS.) Because of the way Columbia is organized, GS has to rely on its OWN financial aid budget, which is separate and in no way equal to the budget at Columbia College (which, in turn, pales in comparison to the Big 3 Ivy schools). So GS students graduate with very high debt burdens (over $50K on average).

The very high cost of a Columbia education is one more reason why the OP is probably better off going to a public institution for his premed classes.

 

[ej37]

I depends what you want to study as well. So many people seem to choose undergraduate schools based on where they want to go to medical school.

Don't rob yourself of the pleasures of an undergraduate education for its own sake. Most top schools don't have a "pre-med" major, and also don't discount the fact that you may even change your mind in 4 years time.

In terms of quality of education, it really does vary by program. People automatically assume that Harvard, Yale, and Princeton are the best in everything, simply not true.

If you are interested in studying something quantitative, like one of the physical sciences or engineering, I can tell you right now a state school is most likely your best option. Generally speaking, the larger the school, the better the program.

Check out the USNews rankings, they a good grad program generally indicates a good undergrad:

http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/grad/sciences.html


Case in point, if you are interested in studying chemistry (like I was), the best programs in the country for undergraduate are (in no particular order):

MIT
Caltech
Berkley
University of Illinois
Wisconsin
Cornell
Michigan
Northwestern
Stanford
UCLA

Notice Cornell is the only Ivy league school on that list, and while you could make a case for Columbia or Princeton, they just don't have the department size to compete with the likes of Berkley, Wisconsin, or U. Illinois.

Yes, an Ivy league degree WILL go far for you in the real world (I have one myself, B.A. in Chemistry from Cornell), and you will learn skills and develop an amazing work ethic (Unless you go to Harvard or Yale that is...). My personal bitterness aside, you should really go to a school where you can study something that you like. Hopefully you have other interests besides medicine. Again, don't rob yourself the pleasure of 4 of the most important years of your life: consider the big picture.

 

[atomi]

Actually most Ivy league schools have phenomenal financial aid. I think Princeton is tuition free for kids from working class backgrounds and the tuition costs for middle class kids is quite low. In many cases, it is cheaper to attend the Ivy League school than the state school because of tuition grants.

That's true if your family is at the poverty level. If your family is even close to middle class, you won't get anything from them. Middle class being annual family income 70k. Definitely not enough to pay for kids college, but you don't get any financial aid. My best friend went to Brown undergrad and got a huge grant because his Mom only earned $30k/year. Because his Dad was divorced from her, he qualified. Had the Dad been included to boost the income past 50k/year, he would have been at state school with me. Looking back, he said going to Brown was a stupid decision in terms of getting a job anywhere outside of academia.

 

[atomi]

Going to an Ivy school also puts you in a better situtation for getting your first job outside of college. I've learned this first hand.

This is true to some extent, but only if you are interested in banking or consulting, both of which depend on recruiting these suckers out of 'elite' colleges to work in their sweatshops. Why anyone would want that life is beyond me, but yes it's competitive and accessible through the ivy league school route.

 

[atomi]

The very high cost of a Columbia education is one more reason why the OP is probably better off going to a public institution for his premed classes.

Yes, you are right here. Like I said before, biology is biology is biology. Undergrad course material is the same everywhere. They all use virtually identical textbooks. The only difference is the price. You can pay $10k to study biology at Columbia. Is that worth it? Absolutely not. I paid $500 to take the same course at the community college and made a 14 on the BS section of the MCAT with only the bio knowledge I had coming from that course.

 

[linguini]

Yes, you are right here. Like I said before, biology is biology is biology. Undergrad course material is the same everywhere. They all use virtually identical textbooks. The only difference is the price. You can pay $10k to study biology at Columbia. Is that worth it? Absolutely not. I paid $500 to take the same course at the community college and made a 14 on the BS section of the MCAT with only the bio knowledge I had coming from that course.

Like a lot of the other stuff on this thread, this is very anecdotal. I don't think this is evidence supporting either side of the Ivy vs. state school issue. Frankly, you're going to have people on both sides of the debate as long as people are attending Ivys and as long as people are attending state schools. I don't think anyone's giving up their steadfast beliefs with this thread.

 

[Leejwwc]

I am a returning student and was accepted into an Ivy school and a state school to complete my undergrad. I know that the classes are much more difficult at Ivy and it will be much more difficult to get a high GPA. Given that I have an option to go to either one of these schools, can anyone comment on how med schools differentiate between students coming out of Ivy League schools vs. other other schools? Does the type of school have any weight in the acceptance process?

Having spoken to multiple advisors at my university (top 10) and seeing first-hand where my friends have been accepted to medical school, the consensus seems to be that the difficulty of the program is accounted for in admissions. My premed advising office states that 85% of undergrads get into at least one medical school, with an average GPA of 3.5, average BCPM of 3.3, and average MCAT of slightly above 33. The premed classes are curved generally to a C+/B- median. I think this is the case with most premeds at the "top" schools - lower than average GPA, higher than average MCAT.

In terms of material, of course biology is biology no matter where you go, but the emphasis is different. I've taken a couple courses at state universities, during high school and over one summer, and the focus tended to be on textbook learning. In my college courses, the textbook served as more of a supplement to the lectures, which were presented with much more sensitivity to the actual research behind each theory and loaded with case studies. We also had to sift through important publications in the primary literature.

 

[footballrules]

I'm glad you think that "undergrad course material is the same everywhere," but that's just not true. I totally agree with you that every school has harder and easier professors, but the institution itself (i.e. the academic department) does have some influence over the difficulty of the classes, because they set the minimum standards for the course syllabi. If a prof wants to demand more than the minimum, they're free to do so, but they can't fall below it. Based on my experience, the Ivy schools tend to set the minimum at a higher level than other institutions.

I gave a concrete example of this (orgo exams) in my previous post, but that's not the only one I know of. Here's another: in my bio lecture, I sat next to a student who had transferred in from William and Mary. She told me she had thought W&M was a good school [and most other people would say that too], but when she arrived at this second place, she was amazed at how much harder it was. She said that for a given class, there was about 50% more work at the Ivy school than at W&M.

I think it's pretty funny that you're so hell-bent on putting down the Ivy league schools, when I myself--who actually attended two of them--advised the OP against finishing his degree at an Ivy. And it wasn't just about grades--I noted that it was "by no means guaranteed" that you'd get a superior education at those schools. What is it exactly that you need to prove, and to whom?

Dude, a frog has a heart no matter if you went to the University of Wisconsin or Alaksa Rural University. The difference is the material COVERED in the course. Not that you will learn some frogs have a heart and some don't.

ALL biology course textbooks are made based on PRIMARY JOURNAL PUBLICATIONS. Sure you can go to a university that has a course that another university doesn't. Sure you can go to one university and take the same course at another university and the material COVERED might be different. But, in the end, a frog has a heart no matter where you take a class.

You will learn more at Harvard than Ripon College in Wisconsin. But the material THAT IS COVERED AT BOTH PLACES is the same no matter what.

 

[student1799]

Sure you can go to a university that has a course that another university doesn't. Sure you can go to one university and take the same course at another university and the material COVERED might be different. [...]

You will learn more at Harvard than Ripon College in Wisconsin. But the material THAT IS COVERED AT BOTH PLACES is the same no matter what.

Huh????

I sense a slight contradiction here.

 

[littlealex]

The only people who care about ivy league schools are ivy league schools. I say let them rot in their own filth.

I remember talking to someone from UPenn and they said they would look down on all courses from schools without the 'academic prestige' of UPenn. Jerks. What they don't understand is that outside of their academic fantasy world, nobody really gives a ****. These people would last all of 1 day in industry before being fired.

My advice is to steer as far away from the Harvards, Penns, and Yales of the world as you can.

Said like someone who didn't get it.
Hahaha.
These are great schools, and your education there will be better than your average run of the mill state schools. They've garnered that reputation for a reason. Your grades may suffer, but if you can pull of a 3.6 from an Ivy and get the MCAT score to back that up, you won't have any problems applying.

 

[searun]

As I said, I did not go to an Ivy League school as an undergrad, but I do go to an Ivy League med school. Can I hold my own, absolutely, no problem, and I say this as a second year. There are a few geniuses, who blow you away, but most everyone else is like me. And when third starts next year, well, it is not just about brains. I mean if you look like Dick Cheney, third year, it is a problem, but fortunately, I don't.

 

[redlight]

guys lets be frank here..quality of education is simply not the same everywhere.. thats why schools have rankings and such (to help differentiate the poor, mediocre, good and great institutions... though of course ranking systems are not without flaws). some schools are (on the whole) much more rigorous than others: FACT. but thats not to say harvard's x department is better than randomstateuniversity's x department simply because harvard is harvard.. some schools are known for being strong in certain departments while schools like stanford are known to be pretty solid/amazing across the board. and of course teachers define which courses are hard not the school or even subject necessarily. for example my calc teacher (has graduate education from Cambridge, was a post doc fellow at MIT) is going to georgia state or GIT or something and my orgo prof previously taught at penn state and my physics prof got his post doc at MIT and taught physics at columbia b4 my ugrad...profs jump around so u cant say just because they are teaching at this school atm they'll be tough or easy

sorry, i just had to have my say
now back to the OP's issue

id go with the state school if your goal is to just get into med school: save yourself some money and some stress and just focus on staying competitive..no offense but you'd have to be lights-out-stellar to come out of a (mediocre?) state school and get into top top schools (imo they are looking for the pedigree name brand school kids with super stats and research and blah or some crazy life story or something). yes you'd have to be pretty damn good at the ivy too (you'll have much more competition too) but i think ivy or top school students are just looked at more favorably or there is a greater bias towards them.. for example i learned that some schools do closed file interviews so the interviewers are not biased towards kids from name brand institutions subconsciously...

think about it.. wouldn't u be more impressed with someone with a 3.9 from MIT than someone with a 3.9 from a lower ranked school like NJIT if we only knew the applicants' major (lets say the major is applied math) and gpa? obviously there is more to an applicant than their gpa and then name on their degree but we all have our own biases

haha i think ill throw in some anecdotal evidence too! a rep from rwj med school came and raved about how many ppl in the incoming class were from yale, columbia, duke, hopkins, penn, brown, etc as if to say kids from tops schools come here so we must be a good school.

ppl care where u came from in undergrad to some extent, but i think some schools try and pick ppl from all over (like hopkins for example) to create a diverse class which can bring new things to that school's community. it all depends on the school's mission and values etc.

but ill add yet another spin.. if u look at the matriculants to top med schools they are from schools like hopkins, duke, ivys, stanford, etc. these schools have tons of premeds and their premed advising is spectacular.. these schools have those advantages (experienced staff, school prestige) on their side when they pitch arguments for their students' acceptance to med school...u can also argue that kids from these schools are extremely driven and would probably had made it to med school anyways but i def think the resources and school reputation had a significant impact on their application success..

 

[AMS04]

I'm actually in a very similar situation as the OP. I am actually at Columbia, doing my undergrad. I'm doing it part time in the GS school (I have an undergrad from another country). I finished about 1 year of classes going part time. the only classes I've taken towards pre-med are Pre-Cal, Cal, and Gen Chem & lab. At this point i have a 3.1... I realize this is probably not good enough for med schools. I'm at a point where I don't know if I should continue at Columbia or move to a less competitive school. I think that I'll do pretty well in terms of being a diverse applicant - undergrad from another country, 7 years of work experience as a Director of an IT department, prior work experience in a lab (3 yrs) (before going into IT). I know I need to pick up volunteer work and shadowing MDs, but for now just trying to decide what to do about next semester... Sorry - I am not trying to steer this discussion my way, but I think the original poster can benefit from hearing everyone's thoughts on this too. Thank you!

 

[searun]

I was walking around my apartment tonight in a t-shirt and underwear. And my girl friend looked at me and started laughing. She said that I looked just like Homer Simpson. I thought, cool, I look like a celebrity. And then I thought about it some more, and I wondered if Homer gets the respect that he deserves.

 

[Leejwwc]

I'm actually in a very similar situation as the OP. I am actually at Columbia, doing my undergrad. I'm doing it part time in the GS school (I have an undergrad from another country). I finished about 1 year of classes going part time. the only classes I've taken towards pre-med are Pre-Cal, Cal, and Gen Chem & lab. At this point i have a 3.1... I realize this is probably not good enough for med schools. I'm at a point where I don't know if I should continue at Columbia or move to a less competitive school. I think that I'll do pretty well in terms of being a diverse applicant - undergrad from another country, 7 years of work experience as a Director of an IT department, prior work experience in a lab (3 yrs) (before going into IT). I know I need to pick up volunteer work and shadowing MDs, but for now just trying to decide what to do about next semester... Sorry - I am not trying to steer this discussion my way, but I think the original poster can benefit from hearing everyone's thoughts on this too. Thank you!

The best thing you can do is to talk with the premed advising office at Columbia. They will know a lot more about the specific GPA requirements expected of you. As a very general rule of thumb, though, a 3.1 is a tad low, but you shouldn't worry too much at this point since you still have several premed classes to take. Try your best to get B+ or higher in those classes to pull your GPA up. As a very general rule of thumb, you should shoot for at least a 3.5. That way, you will be in the safe range of a few medical schools, regardless of where you did your undergrad.

 

[Neuronix]

I remember talking to someone from UPenn and they said they would look down on all courses from schools without the 'academic prestige' of UPenn. Jerks.

I'm at Penn! I now have to defend my school at all costs#$@$%@%$

No just kidding. I've had these kinds of conversations too. They piss me off because guess what... I went to the University of Delaware (read: no name state school) for undergrad. I just posted in another thread where they're interviewing a chick from Delaware. There's several people every year in our med school classes and MD/PhD classes from no name state schools. So despite the uppity attitude you get from a minority of adcoms at the big name place, we still take students from the schools that aren't big name.

I like to think it was far easier for me to keep a near 4.0 without the gunnerific Ivy League/Hopkins/WashU/Stanford psycho premed undergrads around. The MCAT is your equalizer. And I'm going to ask, just how much is a "big name" worth. .2 GPA? .5 GPA? Cause in my mind if anything it's worth like .1 GPA. A 3.9 is a 3.9 from any school. Combined with a high MCAT score and good ECs you are hot ****. A 3.5 from Columbia? I doubt they're gonna do as well. But what I've been noticing is that the kids from Columbia have a lot more 35+ MCAT scores than the kids from Delaware. Why? It's got nothing to do with the school in my opinion. It just has to do with their students have been gunning for med school since high school or before, take the review classes, and know what they have to do. The kids at Delaware were much more likely to barely study for the MCAT and kind of blow it off with a I'll see what happens mentality. Does this mean you'll get sucked into it? Of course not. You know what you need to do. You can get it done wherever you go, without competing with the kids whose parents have been pushing them into med school since they were 3.

So I say go to the school that's cheaper and rock out.

these schools have those advantages (experienced staff, school prestige) on their side when they pitch arguments for their students' acceptance to med school...

Don't get caught up in this nonsense. The top schools just don't recommend kids that aren't perfect apply. They refuse to write them committee letters and/or highly discourage them from even applying. My ex-g/f at Penn was in this boat cause her BCPM was under a 3.0 and her overall was a little under a 3.5. They told her they wouldn't write her a letter and she'd never get into med school cause her GPA wasn't high enough. Now she's on a full scholarship at Pitt. Hopkins did the same thing to a friend of mine, and he had to flee to Delaware to take some post-bacc Biology and other classes so he could actually get a committee recommendation since Hopkins would never give him one. Result? He's a med student at Jefferson. Hopkins still boasts their 90% rate of acceptance to med school or some crap. At Delaware they would love you even if they thought you were a reach for a DO school. Overall rate of kids getting into med school at Delaware as a result was like 50%. Now where would you rather go?

 

[kevster2001]

The only people who care about ivy league schools are ivy league schools. I say let them rot in their own filth.

I remember talking to someone from UPenn and they said they would look down on all courses from schools without the 'academic prestige' of UPenn. Jerks. What they don't understand is that outside of their academic fantasy world, nobody really gives a ****. These people would last all of 1 day in industry before being fired.

My advice is to steer as far away from the Harvards, Penns, and Yales of the world as you can.

lol talk about a giant chip on the shoulder. The advantage of elite schools isn't that the teaching is somehow miles better, it's the students you are competing with. I'm sure the top students at any state school are just as smart as some of the top students at elite schools but on average, top 10 league schools have smarter kids. So then you're competing against tougher academic students, which lets you stand out more when you succeed. Unless you're trying to coast through under the radar or be the big fish in the a really tiny pond, you want the competitiion to be as tough as possible so you can seperate yourself from the the group. I've taken courses at both a relatively good school and at a state school and the level of performance is pretty different between the two. I had to work much harder to reach a certain percentile at the good school vs. the public school.

And what do you mean these people wont last in industry, what industry are you referring to exactly because there are plenty of "industries" where the top paying firms dont even bother highering outside the top 10 schools (both for grad and underg)

 

[redlight]

I'm at Penn! I now have to defend my school at all costs#$@$%@%$

No just kidding. I've had these kinds of conversations too. They piss me off because guess what... I went to the University of Delaware (read: no name state school) for undergrad. I just posted in another thread where they're interviewing a chick from Delaware. There's several people every year in our med school classes and MD/PhD classes from no name state schools. So despite the uppity attitude you get from a minority of adcoms at the big name place, we still take students from the schools that aren't big name.

ok so u went to del... were u in their honors program thing (In BME or something)? i know ppl who got into that thing but chose ivies or other top schools like duke over it.. imo if you are at some prestigious honors program at a state school it, at the very least, equals going to a top one (in terms of proving u would be qualified in attending a rigorous institution)..if the program is famous u already stand out..

I like to think it was far easier for me to keep a near 4.0 without the gunnerific Ivy League/Hopkins/WashU/Stanford psycho premed undergrads around. .......... A 3.9 is a 3.9 from any school.

well i think those two statements contradict each other... like i said quality of education is not the same in every school.. some schools u need to work much harder for good grades than others... therefore a 3.9 does not equal a 3.9 at any school.. this is why i think the mcat has to validate your grades no matter where u go to undergrad...heck arent there eas(ier) majors at every school? the difficulty of attaining a certain gpa probably even differs from department to department.. and trust me.. med schools know which schools are known for which programs..

Don't get caught up in this nonsense. The top schools just don't recommend kids that aren't perfect apply. They refuse to write them committee letters and/or highly discourage them from even applying. My ex-g/f at Penn was in this boat cause her BCPM was under a 3.0 and her overall was a little under a 3.5. They told her they wouldn't write her a letter and she'd never get into med school cause her GPA wasn't high enough. Now she's on a full scholarship at Pitt. Hopkins did the same thing to a friend of mine, and he had to flee to Delaware to take some post-bacc Biology and other classes so he could actually get a committee recommendation since Hopkins would never give him one. Result? He's a med student at Jefferson. Hopkins still boasts their 90% rate of acceptance to med school or some crap. At Delaware they would love you even if they thought you were a reach for a DO school. Overall rate of kids getting into med school at Delaware as a result was like 50%. Now where would you rather go?

nonsense?? you're in denial.. those committee letters go a long way. and i never said everyone gets the nod from top school committees... i said if u do get them they go a long way...

btw the acceptance rate to med school at hopkins undergrad with or without the committee letter is still really high (mid 70s). obviously the committee cant just endorse anyone because the committee has a certain reputation.. which is why it helps the people who do get endorsed tremendously...

yes you'd have to be pretty damn good at the ivy too (you'll have much more competition too)

But what I've been noticing is that the kids from Columbia have a lot more 35+ MCAT scores than the kids from Delaware. Why? It's got nothing to do with the school in my opinion. It just has to do with their students have been gunning for med school since high school or before, take the review classes, and know what they have to do. The kids at Delaware were much more likely to barely study for the MCAT and kind of blow it off with a I'll see what happens mentality. Does this mean you'll get sucked into it? Of course not. You know what you need to do. You can get it done wherever you go, without competing with the kids whose parents have been pushing them into med school since they were 3.

well seems like you are saying the kids at columbia are more likely to put in the hard work to get good grades and test scores... which is why i say top schools are more rigorous-- there is more competition to keep u on your toes.. thats y kids at columbia score high on mcats.. thats y they get into med school at higher rates, too.

OP go to columbia if you can afford it, unless u get into some competitive program/scholarship type thing at the state school. its a matter of which school will allow you to be more competitive as an applicant, not simply which school is ranked higher. if u do well at columbia, the rewards will be far greater than if u do well at the state school (i think, haha)...it's just my opinion that someone who stands out at a top school will get more looks.. so unless u have a sweet deal at the state school, roll the dice and go to columbia

lol talk about a giant chip on the shoulder. The advantage of elite schools isn't that the teaching is somehow miles better, it's the students you are competing with. I'm sure the top students at any state school are just as smart as some of the top students at elite schools but on average, top 10 league schools have smarter kids. So then you're competing against tougher academic students, which lets you stand out more when you succeed. Unless you're trying to coast through under the radar or be the big fish in the a really tiny pond, you want the competitiion to be as tough as possible so you can seperate yourself from the the group.

yep.

 

[JoltOfFuel]

This state school = top ranked schools garbage is pure baloney. Go to the ivy. The people that say life is what you put into it are right, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't put yourself in an advantageous position.

By the way, going to a state school because it's easier is absolutely pathetic. Why are you people with this mindset becoming physicians? How many more shortcuts are you going to take? This is not a field in which you can eschew the difficult path. Learn to appreciate hard work and difficult competition now, as it sure as hell doesn't get easier down the road. What good is getting into a top medical school if your mindset places you in the bottom of your class?

And for whoever said bio = bio and chem = chem anywhere is full of it. I saw orgo tests from about 10 state schools and it wasn't even close. I would have utterly annihilated their midterms simply because you are held to a much lower standard there.

JoF

 

[Neuronix]

If you want to buy into the elitism, than feel free to buy into it. It's this perception that it makes you better than others that keeps the whole thing going, when a high MCAT score is a high MCAT score from anywhere. And do you really think that your MCAT score has to do with how competitive your undergrad courses were?!

In response to the questions: I'm a high school dropout with a GED. I got rejected the first two times I applied to Delaware for college. So no, I wasn't honors and I wasn't BE. I was a dual major in Biology and Psychology.

In reality this whole reputation thing doesn't matter nearly as much as you all think it does, and even then only a small handful of "elite" places. It's obviously not shutting the top performers at the non-elite places out as I evidenced earlier. But if you want to buy into it you can continue to, all the way through medical school and residency and beyond. You can walk around feeling better because you went to the biggest name place when in reality it matters almost none.

well seems like you are saying the kids at columbia are more likely to put in the hard work to get good grades and test scores... which is why i say top schools are more rigorous-- there is more competition to keep u on your toes.. thats y kids at columbia score high on mcats.. thats y they get into med school at higher rates, too.

My point was: If you perform well at any four year pre-med college, you will get into medical school, even top medical schools. You can either do that fighting tooth and nail for every grade with a bunch of gunners or not. I leave that choice to you.

it's just my opinion that someone who stands out at a top school will get more looks.. so unless u have a sweet deal at the state school, roll the dice and go to columbia

Go ahead and hate me for bragging or whatever, but I applied to 14 MD/PhD programs and got 7 acceptances, all in the top-30. I got some MD accentances as well, with as much as half scholarships. So keep having your opinion, and I'll have my opinion is that it's BS. My buddy up at URochester got interviews to 21 out of 22 schools applied to (going from 1-22 on the USNews rankings list), and stopped going to some interviews, but still managed 15 acceptances.

I never thought someone sporting a Huey Freeman avatar would be so elitest. What's your next avatar, Che?

 

[JoltOfFuel]

Don't get caught up in this nonsense. The top schools just don't recommend kids that aren't perfect apply. They refuse to write them committee letters and/or highly discourage them from even applying. My ex-g/f at Penn was in this boat cause her BCPM was under a 3.0 and her overall was a little under a 3.5. They told her they wouldn't write her a letter and she'd never get into med school cause her GPA wasn't high enough. Now she's on a full scholarship at Pitt. Hopkins did the same thing to a friend of mine, and he had to flee to Delaware to take some post-bacc Biology and other classes so he could actually get a committee recommendation since Hopkins would never give him one. Result? He's a med student at Jefferson. Hopkins still boasts their 90% rate of acceptance to med school or some crap. At Delaware they would love you even if they thought you were a reach for a DO school. Overall rate of kids getting into med school at Delaware as a result was like 50%. Now where would you rather go?

Ummm, Hopkins? 90% > 50%. The only disadvantage for going to Hopkins is if you do poorly and end up as a poor applicant. You said yourself the education is what you make of it, and clearly your friends didn't do well in their classes. A BCPM of under 3.0 means she was consistently getting C's in her classes. If the OP is willing to commit and do what it takes to succeed in her classes, she should go to Hopkins/Ivies/etc. The committee letter is invaluable, the premedical offices provide great guidance, and the resources are much greater than at unknown state schools.

JoF

 

[Lukkie]

the whole idea of a pre med committee seems ******ed to me

 

[JoltOfFuel]

If you want to buy into the elitism, than feel free to buy into it. It's this perception that it makes you better than others that keeps the whole thing going, when a high MCAT score is a high MCAT score from anywhere. And do you really think that your MCAT score has to do with how competitive your undergrad courses were?!

In response to the questions: I'm a high school dropout with a GED. I got rejected the first two times I applied to Delaware for college. So no, I wasn't honors and I wasn't BE. I was a dual major in Biology and Psychology.

In reality this whole reputation thing doesn't matter nearly as much as you all think it does, and even then only a small handful of "elite" places. It's obviously not shutting the top performers at the non-elite places out as I evidenced earlier. But if you want to buy into it you can continue to, all the way through medical school and residency and beyond. You can walk around feeling better because you went to the biggest name place when in reality it matters almost none.



My point was: If you perform well at any four year pre-med college, you will get into medical school, even top medical schools. You can either do that fighting tooth and nail for every grade with a bunch of gunners or not. I leave that choice to you.

Neuronix, you've done very well for yourself. But for every success story like you, how many poor and unsuccessful applicants are there coming from Podunk?

In all honesty, I feel that your belief that name means nothing is based on nothing more than wishful thinking. Do you actually believe nobody cares where you went to undergrad? How about an auto interview at UMich? What about the perceptions of other people? You can't honestly tell me that when you tell someone you're going to UPenn Med for MD/PhD, that you don't see their respect for you increase? I realize that this is shallow, but I'm just trying to demonstrate that people DO care where you go. This is especially true in the real world (aka not us premeds) - that Ivy degree is everything in getting your foot in the door. It's not elitism, it's just how 95% of the world thinks.

By the way, it's somewhat unfair to label everyone going to a good school as a gunner. There are plenty of friendly pre-meds that are willing to help each other out. Most people are smart enough to realize that cutthroating 10 or 20 is a waste of time when you have however many thousands of other people to compete with.

JoF

 

[Neuronix]

Ummm, Hopkins? 90% > 50%.

It seems like you completely missed the point I was making. I will spell it out for you:

1) Committees use their position giving out letters as their own internal admissions committee. Of course your pre-med advisor and most of the committee never went to medical school, but eh we'll ignore that fact. The benefit to the school is so that they can brag about their med school acceptance rates.

2) All schools want to see that committee letter. But how much does it actually count? It's just like a dean's letter when you go to med school. Everyone says you must have one, but around 2/3 don't even bother to read it (or the last line). Yet it's a big red flag if you don't have one.

Meanwhile, the pre-med advisor will try their hardest to convince you you have no shot unless they are 95% sure you will get in. They will convince you since they have filtered you out, so will the med schools. I've heard this story over and over and over again. It's so much that I know so many undergrads from Hopkins who would never tell high school students to go to Hopkins because of this kind of insanity that goes on there. You struggle and struggle and struggle and even if you end up with a 3.5 you're told you're not good enough and probably won't get in even though it's not true. I've heard this story from the Penn undergrads too when I meet them.

And meanwhile the advisors tell us med students not to give pre-meds admissions advice. HAH! Who got into medical school buddy?!

3) But it's only these "top" pre-med programs that use themselves as a filter. In reality, you may have a 50/50 shot if you apply to med school, but they aren't going to recommend you.

In reality, the letter is just a summary of your pre-med life that's on your AMCAS anyways. So how much did it actually matter? Probably not much. Still, to the pre-med they think they're a failure and will never get in.

4) The school that doesn't brag about their acceptance rates to medical school writes a letter for almost everyone (unless they are certain they have no shot). This is a more realistic standpoint as you can certainly get into med school with a GPA in the low 3.x range.

The only disadvantage for going to Hopkins is if you do poorly and end up as a poor applicant. You said yourself the education is what you make of it, and clearly your friends didn't do well in their classes. A BCPM of under 3.0 means she was consistently getting C's in her classes.

My Hopkins buddy was a 3.3 in Bioengineering and they refused to recommend him.

The committee letter is invaluable, the premedical offices provide great guidance, and the resources are much greater than at unknown state schools.

What resources do you speak of anyways? I spent years doing research, hundreds of hours volunteering, and shadowed numerous doctors at my unknown state school.

Neuronix, you've done very well for yourself. But for every success story like you, how many poor and unsuccessful applicants are there coming from Podunk?

This is a matter of selection bias. Those that come from a rich or medical or first-generation immigrant family are often pushed from a young age to go to all the top places and do all the top things. How many people come out of high school doing poorly and then all of a sudden turn it around in undergrad? Sure, it happens. I'm the example. That doesn't mean those resources aren't there from your no-name school to do it. That also doesn't mean people are going to look down on you because you went to the lesser ranked school. I've given you a couple examples of that fact already. There's a ton of them in my med school and MD/PhD class.

Do you actually believe nobody cares where you went to undergrad? How about an auto interview at UMich?

I got one of those.

What about the perceptions of other people? You can't honestly tell me that when you tell someone you're going to UPenn Med for MD/PhD, that you don't see their respect for you increase?

The only place I see respect increasing is on this Internet forum. In the real world most of the people I meet think I go to Penn State and think Jefferson is the best medical school in Philadelphia. When I hang out with kids from other medical schools I get the flack because Penn students have a rep in Philly of being a bunch of rich snobby brats and I have to fight to shake that stereotype.

I realize that this is shallow, but I'm just trying to demonstrate that people DO care where you go. This is especially true in the real world (aka not us premeds) - that Ivy degree is everything in getting your foot in the door. It's not elitism, it's just how 95% of the world thinks.

At Wharton yeah, in medicine no. Residencies don't care much about where you went for med school--they care about grades and step I. There's a doctor shortage. Where you go to med school/residency has almost nothing to do with what you end up doing for a job. If you look at many of the big cheeses at my own med school and around the country you will see they went to "podunk" places for undergrad/med school. Why? Academics pays less, has more hours, and is higher stress than the private practice world. You'd have to be insane to keep on the hampster treadmill that is big name academics. Private practice meanwhile is skeptical of the academic types for a number of reasons, so it sure doesn't help you get a job some day, and it has nothing to do with your future pay.

By the way, it's somewhat unfair to label everyone going to a good school as a gunner. There are plenty of friendly pre-meds that are willing to help each other out. Most people are smart enough to realize that cutthroating 10 or 20 is a waste of time when you have however many thousands of other people to compete with.

That is true and you have my apologies on that one. It's not gunning that I meant. It's that everyone is fighting as hard as they can for an A, even when it's usually a personal battle. Only a few are gonna get it. So how is the grade determined? Usually based on some nonsense or really odd/trick questions that go far above and beyond what you need to know for the MCAT. Meanwhile, the no name school doesn't have so many students fighting for the top grade, and so the grades can be doled out fairly.

Still, that difference between an A and a B means a lot more than where it came from. It's going to continue that way until USNews can figure out some way to factor in undergrad prestige of matriculants into their med school rankings. As it is it's GPA and MCAT that goes on that ranking, and you better believe as a result that's what these number whoring top med schools care about the most.

 

[footballrules]

Neuronix, you've done very well for yourself. But for every success story like you, how many poor and unsuccessful applicants are there coming from Podunk?

In all honesty, I feel that your belief that name means nothing is based on nothing more than wishful thinking. Do you actually believe nobody cares where you went to undergrad? How about an auto interview at UMich? What about the perceptions of other people? You can't honestly tell me that when you tell someone you're going to UPenn Med for MD/PhD, that you don't see their respect for you increase? I realize that this is shallow, but I'm just trying to demonstrate that people DO care where you go. This is especially true in the real world (aka not us premeds) - that Ivy degree is everything in getting your foot in the door. It's not elitism, it's just how 95% of the world thinks.

By the way, it's somewhat unfair to label everyone going to a good school as a gunner. There are plenty of friendly pre-meds that are willing to help each other out. Most people are smart enough to realize that cutthroating 10 or 20 is a waste of time when you have however many thousands of other people to compete with.

JoF

For two of the jobs I have right now, I beat out a lot of Ivy school graduates. I even beat out several people that had masters degree. I went to small no-name liberal arts college. I can stand up to any biology, biochem, genetics, neurosience or the like from any Ivy school. I did a summer internship a while back at a highly ranked unversity and meet several people from Ivy schools. Not a single person from the Ivy schools impressed me. Guess what? The information they learned was the same thing I learned.

Go ahead and think that an Ivy school makes you better and smarter than everyone else. You will be sadly mistaken. Don't let the first non-Ivy school person that outshines you make you feel like less of a man.

Guess why I beat out several Ivy graduates for one of my jobs? I had a lot more knowledge about the subject matter than all of the other applicants from the Ivy schools. During the interview we were given specific cases and we had to provide patient history, what the history means, how it could be treated, and several other things. It only took me a couple of minutes to do it and it took the Ivy graduates a lot longer to do it. I was even tested on the meaning of all of the vocab on the patient history information and aced every single word...unlike the Ivy applicants.

Translation: Just because a person goes to an Ivy school doesn't make you smart. If you are a smart person, you are smart no matter where you go to school. I've said it several times. What seperates Ivy schools from your usuall local university and college are the resources.

 

[fuzzywuz]

In the end, its how you take advantage of your education. There are pros and cons to everything. That is certainly the case when it comes to picking a school.

Since I've seen quite a few cons listed, I'll just list out the pros:

1) Resources
2) Connections
3) Prestige (in the end, the name will help you somewhat)
4) Challenges (for people who really like to challenge themselves, it's not so hard to do so at an Ivy. You are dealing with some talented individuals)


Again, these pros does not imply that they cannot be obtained at other schools. I'm merely pointing out teh possibilities.

 

[footballrules]

In the end, its how you take advantage of your education. 👍👍👍 There are pros and cons to everything. That is certainly the case when it comes to picking a school.

Since I've seen quite a few cons listed, I'll just list out the pros:

1) Resources 👍
2) connections
3) Prestige (in the end, the name will help you somewhat)....it doesn't last forever. It can help, but your own smarts and skills will take a person farther than what the name says on your college diploma.
4) Challenges (for people who really like to challenge themselves, it's not so hard to do so at an Ivy. You are dealing with some talented individuals)


Again, these pros does not imply that they cannot be obtained at other schools. I'm merely pointing out teh possibilities.

Look above.

 

[student1799]

This state school = top ranked schools garbage is pure baloney. Go to the ivy. The people that say life is what you put into it are right, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't put yourself in an advantageous position.

By the way, going to a state school because it's easier is absolutely pathetic. Why are you people with this mindset becoming physicians? How many more shortcuts are you going to take? This is not a field in which you can eschew the difficult path. Learn to appreciate hard work and difficult competition now, as it sure as hell doesn't get easier down the road. What good is getting into a top medical school if your mindset places you in the bottom of your class?

I'm one of the people who advised the OP earlier in this thread to go to a state school, yet I went to Ivy schools for both undergrad and postbacc. My motivation was simple: pure realism.

The fact is, we have two separate issues here: quality of education and GPA. We can debate all day long about where the quality of education is higher (and that happens to be what drove my school choices in the first place), but the sad, sad fact is that it's got very little to do with med school admissions. As far as I can tell, med schools don't really care about what kind of education you got--they care about the GRADES you got. I think that's really misguided, and I wish I could change the system, but I obviously can't. So until it does change (if it ever does), we have to play the game as it's played.

That leads to the inescapable conclusion that a person who wants to maximize his/her chances of admission to med school is better off choosing an easier school, in order to get a higher GPA. (Within reason, of course: no one's going to take their classes at a truly marginal school. But any state university in this country should be fine.)

Would I advocate choosing an undergrad school solely on this criterion? Hell, no--it horrifies me. However, for someone who is looking for a POSTBACC program, it's pretty much paramount. Therefore, any time someone has posted on SDN looking for advice about where to do postbacc, I have urged them to go to a public school, so that they can maximize their chances of getting into med school. (After all, that's what postbacc programs are supposed to be for.) As I've said in many of these posts, I would have done so myself if I'd known at the time how med school admissions really works.

As for those posters who've assumed in their comments that Ivy schools must have tremendous career counseling,wonderful pre-med advising, etc.: I'm afraid not. We're pretty much left to our own devices, just like you guys at the other schools.🙂

 

[JoltOfFuel]

For two of the jobs I have right now, I beat out a lot of Ivy school graduates. I even beat out several people that had masters degree. I went to small no-name liberal arts college. I can stand up to any biology, biochem, genetics, neurosience or the like from any Ivy school. I did a summer internship a while back at a highly ranked unversity and meet several people from Ivy schools. Not a single person from the Ivy schools impressed me. Guess what? The information they learned was the same thing I learned.

Go ahead and think that an Ivy school makes you better and smarter than everyone else. You will be sadly mistaken. Don't let the first non-Ivy school person that outshines you make you feel like less of a man.

Guess why I beat out several Ivy graduates for one of my jobs? I had a lot more knowledge about the subject matter than all of the other applicants from the Ivy schools. During the interview we were given specific cases and we had to provide patient history, what the history means, how it could be treated, and several other things. It only took me a couple of minutes to do it and it took the Ivy graduates a lot longer to do it. I was even tested on the meaning of all of the vocab on the patient history information and aced every single word...unlike the Ivy applicants.

Translation: Just because a person goes to an Ivy school doesn't make you smart. If you are a smart person, you are smart no matter where you go to school. I've said it several times. What seperates Ivy schools from your usuall local university and college are the resources.

.....

When did I say going to an ivy made you smarter? Your post sums up to "I'm just as good as any Ivy leaguer, repeat repeat". Maybe you are. I don't know. It's certainly possible. But you were a better applicant for the job because you proved you were better - more knowledge, better tests, etc. Completely irrelevant.

Take a look at the orgo/physics/chem tests from your school and compare it to MIT/Hopkins/etc. I'm confident your tests expected a lower level of knowledge. Lower standards, and few people go above and beyond the minimum level as you did. That's just human nature.

 

[spyderracing32]

For everyone arguing the "go to State U" position, it really depends on where State U is. Sure, an Ivy is going to be a more rigorous education that most any state school, but at the same time (solely from the pre-med grade grubbing stand-point) the Ivy's are notorious for grade inflation. If you go to Cal-Berkley or Michigan you might fare worse than had you gone to an Ivy (both schools known for a rigorous education AND grade deflation).

Make your decisions based on the strength of the program you want to get into (undoubtedly this is probably going to go to the Ivy), and how much money you are going to get from the school (probably going to State U, but Ivies all have huge endowments). This is not an easy decision, and will require a lot of soul searching on YOUR part. Don't let a bunch of college kids decide your future for you.