JAMA: Delay all incoming med students

[Tastysalmon]

---

Members don't see this ad.

JAMA Editor wants all incoming med students to be delayed due to COVID (and be essentially drafted into public health work). Published today. See attached.

Medical Students and Public Health Service for the COVID-19 Pandemic

Over the next few months it is likely that the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic that has surged in New York City, Seattle, New Orleans, and Detroit will move from city to city and state to state. After the initial peak, absent highly effective medical interventions, the US will likely...

jamanetwork.com

 

[meronebib]

Creates too many problems. Much easier solution is to just have M1 online for all incoming students, if the goal is to continue social distancing in the fall.

 

[squids82]

Since no initial skills are required, what would be gained by blocking medical students instead of opening up the opportunity to the general public or even other health professional students at the minimum?

 

[Tastysalmon]

Their point isn’t exposure. What I got from the article is that the authors want cheap public health labor, and who better to force to do it than incoming med students.

 

[squids82]

What I got from the article is that the authors want cheap public health labor, and who better to force to do it than incoming med students.

A great ivory tower mindset from their offices!

 

[Tastysalmon]

A great ivory tower mindset from their offices!

Lol they screw med students enough by making us pay to work for them (my current situation in M3 lol)

 

[squids82]

Lol they screw med students enough by making us pay to work for them (my current situation in M3 lol)

My dad practices in a decent sized city and this would be a terrible idea according to him and I’d like to believe my uncle and aunt would feel the same. But boots on the ground obviously have a more accurate perspective on things when looking at the awful situation docs in NYC are in

 

[openstage]

Too much liability

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

13th Amendment
Abolition of Slavery
Passed by Congress January 31, 1865. Ratified December 6, 1865. The 13th Amendment changed a portion of Article IV, Section 2

Section 1
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.
Section 2
Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.
Read Interpretations of the 13th Amendment

 

[TheDataKing]

" As a possible approach to respond to this challenge, the US should consider suspending the first year of medical school for 1 year and giving the incoming 20 000 medical students the opportunity to join a national service program for public health. Hopefully the vast majority of students would participate. "

Yeah, no. Not what I signed up for and med schools won't want to miss out on a year of profit/what happens in 4 years when there are no graduating US med students?

 

[Tastysalmon]

" As a possible approach to respond to this challenge, the US should consider suspending the first year of medical school for 1 year and giving the incoming 20 000 medical students the opportunity to join a national service program for public health. Hopefully the vast majority of students would participate. "

Yeah, no. Not what I signed up for and med schools won't want to miss out on a year of profit/what happens in 4 years when there are no graduating US med students?

Lol yeah that was a good quote - the audacity to say they will give incoming students “the opportunity...”.

ALSO they said “because fewer students means less tuition revenue, the federal government should compensate medical schools for a portion of this lost income”.

They’re saying they want to pay the MED schools for OUR work. Like excuse me?? Do they think we’re indentured servants to be loaned out??

 

[DrStephennmnm]

JAMA Editor wants all incoming med students to be delayed due to COVID (and be essentially drafted into public health work). Published today. See attached.

Medical Students and Public Health Service for the COVID-19 Pandemic

Over the next few months it is likely that the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic that has surged in New York City, Seattle, New Orleans, and Detroit will move from city to city and state to state. After the initial peak, absent highly effective medical interventions, the US will likely...

jamanetwork.com

I'd be down if the authors would also be willing to give up a years pay since they're the ones suggesting such an idiotic idea.

 

[lanzhou_lamian]

The central idea of mobilizing a large team of basically community health workers during the COVID crisis makes sense to me. I don't understand why they target incoming med students to do it though. The work they're suggesting is low-skilled, and there is no shortage of out-of-work people currently. Why not just have them do it? The article already suggested compensating med schools for the lost revenue. Why not just give this "opportunity" and the money associated with it to the unemployed people who would actually want/need this work?

 

[Sky138]

Nope

 

[goriku671]

"Hopefully the vast majority of students would participate."

I can't believe some people actually think this would work...How privileged to be able to just take a year off and volunteer. Yeah, no. I'd stick to my current job if they actually implemented a policy like this.

 

[finn_]

"Hopefully the vast majority of students would participate."

I can't believe some people actually think this would work...How privileged to be able to just take a year off and volunteer. Yeah, no. I'd stick to my current job if they actually implemented a policy like this.

I also think this is not a great idea, but to be fair they do suggest in the article that students be compensated and given health insurance.

 

[Tastysalmon]

I also think this is not a great idea, but to be fair they do suggest in the article that students be compensated and given health insurance.

Well I guess that’s a step up from making you all sleep in a communal barn.

 

[Monster-Mormon]

Wow, this is so cringy. Like yes let the poor indebted medical students "volunteer" and we can just pay the medical schools for them. Then in four, sorry five years when they want residencies we will let them "volunteer" again at a national level before residency. What jerks.

 

[Dantrolene FC]

That’s ******ed.

 

[Qwerty2013]

Wow this is outrageous.

- So medical schools would extend the 4 years to a 5year MD timeline, which I'm sure students would love..
- Should students fall ill or put their families at risk for working in conditions that are highly variable (depending on state/region and availability of supplies/PPE), who would be responsible? Are medical schools going to be willing to throw their incoming matriculants under the bus?
- Are healthcare staff going to be happy training essentially pre-meds, in addition to their work load?
- And students would happy to work for... I assume minimum wage?

To address their point on workforce shortage, YES it is REAL but it also seems like healthcare bureaucracy is a critical bottleneck. Thousands of doctors have signed up to volunteer but only few have actually been allowed to join the workforce in NYC due to online glitches/system delays/confusion aka logistical nightmares.

Perhaps the lead authors can lead by example?

 

[Dr. Anonymouss]

Lol yeah that was a good quote - the audacity to say they will give incoming students “the opportunity...”.

ALSO they said “because fewer students means less tuition revenue, the federal government should compensate medical schools for a portion of this lost income”.

They’re saying they want to pay the MED schools for OUR work. Like excuse me?? Do they think we’re slaves to be loaned out??

Slaves, no. Indentured servants, yes.

 

[Tastysalmon]

Slaves, no. Indentured servants, yes.

Ahh good point. Will update.

 

[deleted688779]

Lol yeah that was a good quote - the audacity to say they will give incoming students “the opportunity...”.

Feels like the same people who advocate for "character-building" 25hr/day 8days/wk shifts for residents.


What a load of crap.

 

[Sky138]

"Greetings"

This is the way the letters from the draft board would announce that you just have been selected for service into the military and I would suggest any entering medical student needs to assume that they will be drafted into service this coming year, though likely as aides or nonclinical work such as housekeeping, food service, etc. If you get a choice not to volunteer, it will likely be remembered and reflected 4 years later when you start looking for residency letter. And of course, in the end, you all can be "drafted" or rather all the medical schools in the country can be essentially compelled to do so assist in this. Let me explain

This is the reality when the "war" we are fighting is with a pandemic and the public health is the force we have to fight it with. BTW, the US Public Health Service is one of the eight uniformed service branches in the US. Legally, as individuals you cant be directly drafted into service. However, with a declaration of a national emergency as well as declaration at the state and local levels does give power to the PHS to press doctors, nurses, and non-medical personnel into work for the emergency. There is no doubt that they could do so for medical students as well as non medical staff at the schools. In NYS they have started to "draft" non-medical staff from medical insurance companies into jobs such as security at a hospital.

Ultimately, with millions sick and out of work, millions of others not working to take care of those at home sick, they will be looking for warm bodies to do many of the nonclinical jobs at the hospitals. And I will tell you, whether you want it or not, assume that your medical school orientation maybe "here is a pair gloves, here is a mask, dont lose it, now follow me." Your only option may likely be to withdrawal your acceptance. And this will go on for 6 to 24 months depending on when we have both a widespread vaccination program and antibody testing

This is what happens in war, it changes plans and changes lives. Scream all you want, but I promise, you all will be working on the front lines or close to it, the from almost the moment you show up on campus. Your first year may not actually start until next year and there not be an application cycle at many schools this cycle.

I think I’ll take a hard pass. If school doesn’t start until next year, so be it as that’s beyond my control. However if I’m forced to take a year to sit around and twiddle my fingers on sdn, I’d rather do that than be conscripted to fight Covid. I get it, things are bad but in no way, shape, form can a school hold my acceptance because of this. For example, if they tried, I’d be more than happy to tie this up in court until everything blows over. My parents actually have several lawyers on retainer so again, I’ll have to take a hard pass.

 

[thegrind33]

"Greetings"

This is the way the letters from the draft board would announce that you just have been selected for service into the military and I would suggest any entering medical student needs to assume that they will be drafted into service this coming year, though likely as aides or nonclinical work such as housekeeping, food service, etc. If you get a choice not to volunteer, it will likely be remembered and reflected 4 years later when you start looking for residency letter. And of course, in the end, you all can be "drafted" or rather all the medical schools in the country can be essentially compelled to do so assist in this. Let me explain

This is the reality when the "war" we are fighting is with a pandemic and the public health is the force we have to fight it with. BTW, the US Public Health Service is one of the eight uniformed service branches in the US. Legally, as individuals you cant be directly drafted into service. However, with a declaration of a national emergency as well as declaration at the state and local levels does give power to the PHS to press doctors, nurses, and non-medical personnel into work for the emergency. There is no doubt that they could do so for medical students as well as non medical staff at the schools. In NYS they have started to "draft" non-medical staff from medical insurance companies into jobs such as security at a hospital.

Ultimately, with millions sick and out of work, millions of others not working to take care of those at home sick, they will be looking for warm bodies to do many of the nonclinical jobs at the hospitals. And I will tell you, whether you want it or not, assume that your medical school orientation maybe "here is a pair gloves, here is a mask, dont lose it, now follow me." Your only option may likely be to withdrawal your acceptance. And this will go on for 6 to 24 months depending on when we have both a widespread vaccination program and antibody testing

This is what happens in war, it changes plans and changes lives. Scream all you want, but I promise, you all will be working on the front lines or close to it, the from almost the moment you show up on campus. Your first year may not actually start until next year and there not be an application cycle at many schools this cycle.

The virus is without a doubt serious but this take IMO is over exaggerated, and I'm not even gonna go into the legal ramifications if something like this happened (hospitals are private in the US so if you force a med student to do whatever here and die, theres gonna be blood on a lot of peoples hands not just the gov).

 

[deleted621740]

Honestly can't believe a recommendation that comes across as so ill-thought-out and, frankly, paternalistic was recommended by the JAMA editor. I mean, I know that the situation is bad, but the others above bring up a great point -- why only unskilled first-year medical students? Furloughed community members could do the same thing while also eliminating the need for uncle sam to make pay outs to medical schools. I also understand that they were pushing for an opt-in system but still...why M1s?...

 

[GreenDuck12]

For example, if they tried, I’d be more than happy to tie this up in court until everything blows over. My parents actually have several lawyers on retainer so

Sorry, but this line was legit funny.

 

[deleted688779]

Honestly can't believe a recommendation that comes across as so ill-thought-out and, frankly, paternalistic was recommended by the JAMA editor. I mean, I know that the situation is bad, but the others above bring up a great point -- why only unskilled first-year medical students? Furloughed community members could do the same thing while also eliminating the need for uncle sam to make pay outs to medical schools. I also understand that they were pushing for an opt-in system but still...why M1s?...

Maybe because they think/know we're desperate enough. Also I'm pretty sure it'll look better from a PR stand-point than random unskilled community members. The news clips can just say granting valuable training opportunities for "medical students"/"future health professionals" rather than "unskilled workers" and it'll all be fine with the public.

 

[Sky138]

Sorry, but this line was legit funny.

It’s true tho lol.

 

[Sky138]

Look, don’t get me wrong. I’m the type of person who volunteers at a free clinic during the pandemic and I’d be more than happy to help out with Covid. What I’m not ok with is someone taking agency out of my decision. The second someone tries is the moment I’ll say peace, I’m out. If they made this an equitable draft and I was chosen, obviously I wouldn’t bone spur my way out of this. Forcing incoming students is not equitable and therefore is completely disgusting.

 

[KnightDoc]

"Greetings"

This is the way the letters from the draft board would announce that you just have been selected for service into the military and I would suggest any entering medical student needs to assume that they will be drafted into service this coming year, though likely as aides or nonclinical work such as housekeeping, food service, etc. If you get a choice not to volunteer, it will likely be remembered and reflected 4 years later when you start looking for residency letter. And of course, in the end, you all can be "drafted" or rather all the medical schools in the country can be essentially compelled to do so assist in this. Let me explain

This is the reality when the "war" we are fighting is with a pandemic and the public health is the force we have to fight it with. BTW, the US Public Health Service is one of the eight uniformed service branches in the US. Legally, as individuals you cant be directly drafted into service. However, with a declaration of a national emergency as well as declaration at the state and local levels does give power to the PHS to press doctors, nurses, and non-medical personnel into work for the emergency. There is no doubt that they could do so for medical students as well as non medical staff at the schools. In NYS they have started to "draft" non-medical staff from medical insurance companies into jobs such as security at a hospital.

Ultimately, with millions sick and out of work, millions of others not working to take care of those at home sick, they will be looking for warm bodies to do many of the nonclinical jobs at the hospitals. And I will tell you, whether you want it or not, assume that your medical school orientation maybe "here is a pair gloves, here is a mask, dont lose it, now follow me." Your only option may likely be to withdrawal your acceptance. And this will go on for 6 to 24 months depending on when we have both a widespread vaccination program and antibody testing

This is what happens in war, it changes plans and changes lives. Scream all you want, but I promise, you all will be working on the front lines or close to it, the from almost the moment you show up on campus. Your first year may not actually start until next year and there not be an application cycle at many schools this cycle.

With all due respect, I really get the need for bodies to perform non-clinical tasks, but, with millions of people out of work, and trillions of dollars of public money being appropriated by Congress to mitigate the effects on the economy, is the most intelligent way to "draft" people into service to pull future doctors from training for a year, rather than paying the unemployed to perform needed tasks while not delaying the entry of 20,000 MDs into the workforce?

 

[Tastysalmon]

Honestly at this point I think the mentality of some people isn’t “how can we can make this better”, it’s literally “how can we make this 10x worse”

 

[deleted621740]

Maybe because they think/know we're desperate enough. Also I'm pretty sure it'll look better from a PR stand-point than random unskilled community members. The news clips can just say granting valuable training opportunities for "medical students"/"future health professionals" rather than "unskilled workers" and it'll all be fine with the public.

Good PR for whom? Anyone with a shred of gray matter between their ears knows that M1s have no skills and thus wouldn't be doing things any better than Joe from down the street who just got laid off and has a family to feed. And also, one can assume that it would also be good PR for nursing and/or PA schools...so why are these students not brought up?

 

[thegrind33]

Honestly at this point I think the mentality of some people isn’t “how can we can make this better”, it’s literally “how can we make this 10x worse”

My favorite is "how can we make this worse so we can politicise it"

 

[sunshinefl]

Wow. Just wow. I’m an M3/rising M4 just hoping to graduate on time and get any residency at this point. What a nightmare we’re all in.

 

[Engrailed]

The authors are both faculty at well known schools. I wonder how their SOM feel about their article?????????

 

[Tastysalmon]

3 months ago it was ridiculous to think that:
- we all would be fighting a war with social distance and obsessive hand washing.
- that virtually every school, college, senior center, public park, movie theater, shopping mall would be closed
- virtually every international flight would be cancelled and their planes grounded
- taking a cruise for a vacation would have you stranded at sea with dead bodies on board
- people would be buying of every paper towel, facial tissue, and roll of toilet paper they could find
-10 million, yes 10 million would be out of jobs in a matter of weeks.
- doctors, nurses and the rest would be begging, begging for masks and other PPE
- New York City would break the record and get more ambulance calls in day then they did on 9/11.
- NYC would continue to reach yet a new record EMS of calls each day this past week
- hospitals would look like a war zone with lack of beds, ventilators, and equipment
- multiple governors and the military would be begging all for retired doctors, nurses and medics to come back to active duty
- field and tent hospitals would be set up in convention centers, sports arenas, college dorms and Central Park
- hospitals would need to use refrigerator trucks and ice rinks as temporary morgues
- that by the end of today we have twice the number dead then we did on 9/11
- think that we may, if we are lucky, have only than 200,000 dead when this is all over
- I would be saying we have many more months and many more deaths to endure
- I would be saying it will take 6-24 months to return to any semblance of "normal" in our world
- I would be writing this to all the premeds on this site
- I would suggest that there may not be ANY med school admission this cycle

You said yourself there are millions out of work. So have those able bodied adults do this work while the med schools focusing on getting new doctors out there. If your wartime hyperbole it to be taken seriously then, with your same analogy being used, wouldn’t we want more medics?

 

[Tastysalmon]

I promise you it will get worse. As people fall ill by the millions, there will be a call for all able bodied volunteers. Who do you think will help in the nonclinical roles of the 200,000-300,000 new field hospital beds opening in the next 2-6 months? This is what happens in war

1) this isn’t a war, it’s a pandemic. 2) infection rates are already falling because of social distancing (yes they will go back up obv but we will have the summer to work in the PPE/ventilator supply) 3) I think you’ve been watching too much CNN

 

[Goro]

Because your are the first ones to be drafted and can essentially be compelled as schools can make this almost a requirement; every school has written into its rules for students and applicants the ability to change graduation requirements. Its only the M1 now but I have said, it will eventually be a general call for all able bodied volunteers

I want three volunteers...you, you and you!

 

[Tastysalmon]

Gotta put out the fire that is burning now before training new firemen. This is what happens in every war, they start throwing bodies at it.

Oh incoming M1s are trained? Must have missed that class in UG

 

[deleted621740]

Because your are the first ones to be drafted and can essentially be compelled as schools can make this almost a requirement; every school has written into its rules for students and applicants the ability to change graduation requirements. Its only the M1 now but I have said, it will eventually be a general call for all able bodied volunteers

Right, and that's fine and perfectly within each school's rights. I am just saying that there is really no need for compulsion when there are people who can't pay rent and would gladly restock shelves and answer phones for some money right now. That said, is pointing at medical students (and medical students alone) the most effective/logical recommendation that one could make from an economic perspective. I say no...

 

[thegrind33]

You wouldnt win. Schools all have policies written into their student handbooks which includes applicants, that allow them to change requirements for graduation at will. They could easily rescind acceptance or, more likely, tell you as start orientation. They your only choice would be resign.

What about schools in rural areas that do not have many cases? It would be kind of crazy to have some schools going forward with a class while urban schools have forced service

 

[finn_]

Right, and that's fine and perfectly within each school's rights. I am just saying that there is really no need for compulsion when there are people who can't pay rent and would gladly restock shelves for some money right now. That said, is pointing at medical students (and medical students alone) the most effective/logical recommendation that one could make from an economic perspective. I say no...

I totally agree with you—every school could change the rules, make people "volunteer" to help, make graduation contingent on service, etc etc. However, I would also hope though that the medical schools that we each chose/will choose to attend will act in our best interests. I know that a feeling of support from the administration of the school I will be attending was something that was important to me in making my decision and something I hope (and believe) will continue as the pandemic evolves.

 

[Tastysalmon]

Wow. Just wow. I’m an M3/rising M4 just hoping to graduate on time and get any residency at this point. What a nightmare we’re all in.

Same. I really wish the incoming students luck with this

 

[deleted859689]

I personally don’t care if I get drafted into service. Sounds like an adventure. But I agree with a lot of things said above. As M1s, I don’t really get what we can do that’s different than joe schmo. On the other hand, we get early clinical exposure at the cost of maybe, you know, dying. I’m down.

 

[sunshinefl]

Same. I really wish the incoming students luck with this

God/Universe/mercury in retrograde help us all.

 

[ChymeofPassion]

Pass, sorry. Sounds like >250k dollars in opportunity cost to me, not to mention illogical when you consider the millions of Americans out of work who need the jobs. Just defer me for the year and I'll work at a biotech company and work on these loans.

 

[proudofmykids]

CTFO....
@gonnif
Well I pray you are wrong, but understand the scenario you paint.
Are you indicating M1 would still pay full tuition just to be volunteering in the hospitals without compensation? Even the armed forces are compensated and certainly not charged to join and enlist. Now if compelled, it would make sense for the government to provide significant educational credits along with work compensation.

 

[deleted859689]

If they don’t offer deferment, what would you guys do?

 

[deleted688779]

Good PR for whom? Anyone with a shred of gray matter between their ears knows that M1s have no skills and thus wouldn't be doing things any better than Joe from down the street who just got laid off and has a family to feed. And also, one can assume that it would also be good PR for nursing and/or PA schools...so why are these students not brought up?

I actually think a good chunk of the general public does think that M1s do have skills your general person does not, especially with people who don't converse with people in the medical field beyond their own physician. This field, even if only at the medical school level, is so arcane to outsiders. It would be much easier for an average Joe to think along the lines of "Well...if big-name hospitals enlist M1s, then M1s MUST have knowledge that a general person does not have, otherwise why would these big-brained medical schools draft them into service? The hospitals MUST know what they're doing, they're the pros after all!" than to be skeptical and question prestige and authority.

This is especially so if an institution or news station decides it wants spin the story to their favor. They don't even have to say "M1" they can just say "medical students", and spin it as "valuable hands-on, on the job experience"