I keep hearing that the job market sucks. Can someone explain to me why this is the overall consensus for anesthesia jobs? I realize that CNA's are becoming more prevalent in the field, but will it really strain the market that much? Also, what are people's outlooks for the future?
Job Market for Anesthesiologists
- Thread starter DrBB
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IMHO, the job market is tight right now for a number of reasons:
1. Stock Market has gone nowhere the past decade. This means older Anesthesiologists need to keep working rather than retire. I suspect this factor alone has added several more years of work to more than few Anesthesiologists' careers.
2. Obama- Obamacare is law and many are scared to death this field is going down the drain circa 2017/2018. All the talk of ACOs, Medicare, Medicaid has scared some groups into NOT hiring that extra 1-2 Anesthesiologists. Instead, they are going from 3:1 to 4:1 supervision or simply taking that extra call or extra shift.
3. AMCs/Employed Positions- More and more groups are feeling the pressure of AMCs and/or Employee model. Hospitals are looking to cut costs even if that means more midlevels in order to do it. AMCs are still hiring but at lower salaries than many former private groups.
4. Subsidies- Hospitals are loking to cut corners and forcing Groups to take smaller subsidies. They want a leaner, meaner anesthesia group however or by qhatever means necessary.
The old guys can only hang on so long and if anything, a medical student today looking to start a 4-5 year residency should find the employment opportunities of 2017 better than today. Once Obamacare is in full swing circa 2020 I expect even more job opportunities.🙄
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Blade you have nailed it.
exceedingly accurate summary of the employment future for anesthesiologists.
ACOs of the future will further put the thumb on Anesthesiologists of the future.
Most docs I see today are scared of their own shadow. They dont wanna rock the boat lest find themselves on the un employment line.
We are in for a very ROCKY ROAD, but at the very least it will be VERY interesting.. What will be even more interesting is how many people dont bother getting recertified and what will happen to their career
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both fellowships will help make you stand out but we really dont do CCM outside of academia and certainly places that do cardiac will prefer cardiac trained DOCS. BUt not everyplace does hearts and those numbers are dwindling. Peds is probably a great fellowship
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Which specialty outside PCPs would benefit the most from ACOs? Surgeons?
In a world of salaried docs, won't we all be in the same boat? Or are some specialties more equal?
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I think the main issue is the stock market. The anesthesia docs in their 60s are not retiring. Since 2000, the s and p 500 has returned about 1.8% per year. But that is before the fees. In my groups 401k, the maintence fee is 1% for the 401k and about .5% for the s and p 500 index fund. So really, you are talking about .3%/year or about 3.6% total for the past 12 years. If the s and p 500 and done its usual 8-9%, those older docs would have doubled their money since 2000 and really would not have incentive to work well into their 60s and 70s. Figure a doc at age 50 in 2000 had 4 million invested and was expecting about 8 million by 2012 but still has 4 million, making 400k / year, figure he or she has to work another 10 years to get to that 8 million retirement goal because of the underinvestment in the stock market. And all these assumptions assume people didn't pull out of the markets in the tech bubble of 01' or the crash in 08'.
You can get a job coming out of residency, but the salaries are less. I've seen jobs starting at 220k with 6-7 calls per month and every other weekend. What a lousy job. And I'm sure you are not doing the ASA I cases.
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Yes... the stock market has hurt a lot of anesthesiologists looking to get out. That is for sure.
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That's absolutely terrible, they are taking 1.5%/year from your returns? That will absolutley murder your retirement plan. Vanguards S&P ETF (VOO) is a 0.05% fee and I'm sure there are others (Fidelity, TD, Etc) w/other similar fees as well. I'm glad to be a 1099
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That's a really bad job, unless it's the partner track, and even then it's a bad job. I know people at no call no weekend jobs that pay far better.
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"The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is."
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No. I believe he is saying that the maint. fee average 1% except for the index funds which are lower. That said, the usual maint. fee is around .25-0.45% for a Group account from some investment firms.
Any anesthesiologist who is in their late 50s or early 60s (assuming they started working as attending by age 30-32) should have enough to retire.
The problem with MDs is they are usually horrible at money management.
I've made in the mid 200-mid 400s my first 8 years out of residency. Even managed to lost close to $250k on housing loss cash and still have a million in cash/liquid investments and retirement. 50/50 split with retirement and liquid. Have student loans paid off. All cars paid cash. Kids college accounts set up before I even had kids.
But my friends who have average more (in mid to high 500s) don't save much at all. It's crazy what they spend on. 2nd home. Switching cars every 2 years. Boats.
That's the mistake many high earners make. They simply over spend. One of my older atte dings in academics is happily retired at age 62. Lived modestly. Nice 1-1.5 million dollar home in nice area of DC all paid off.
Just be smart with your money. You dont need to be lucky in the stock market. You don't need to make the big money to be able to retire.
And most of all.....DON'T GET DIVORCE! That's the number one money mistake many doctors make (unless both are docs). This applies to women docs also. My friends former group had 5 women anesthesiologists. For some reason these women docs also married men who are lazy and don't like to work either. These are stay at home men. It is rather weird.
The problem with MDs is they are usually horrible at money management.
I've made in the mid 200-mid 400s my first 8 years out of residency. Even managed to lost close to $250k on housing loss cash and still have a million in cash/liquid investments and retirement. 50/50 split with retirement and liquid. Have student loans paid off. All cars paid cash. Kids college accounts set up before I even had kids.
But my friends who have average more (in mid to high 500s) don't save much at all. It's crazy what they spend on. 2nd home. Switching cars every 2 years. Boats.
That's the mistake many high earners make. They simply over spend. One of my older atte dings in academics is happily retired at age 62. Lived modestly. Nice 1-1.5 million dollar home in nice area of DC all paid off.
Just be smart with your money. You dont need to be lucky in the stock market. You don't need to make the big money to be able to retire.
And most of all.....DON'T GET DIVORCE! That's the number one money mistake many doctors make (unless both are docs). This applies to women docs also. My friends former group had 5 women anesthesiologists. For some reason these women docs also married men who are lazy and don't like to work either. These are stay at home men. It is rather weird.
D
deleted126335
Truer word were never spoken.
D
deleted126335
If you define "better employment opportunities" to mean the ability to find a job earning comparable pay to established anesthesiologists doing comparable work in the same area, I agree with with your definition of "better".
If you define "better" to mean an increase in real inflation adjusted hourly rate for new grads in 2017 as opposed to today, I disagree.
The old guys will hang around till they are thrown out the door. Most of them have saved and invested poorly all the while spending like drunken sailors who have bounce back kids to support.
Do you think neurology might make as much $ as anesthesia in the next 10yrs or not? And if anesthesia salaries drop, will they still have those 10wk+ vacations? Also when you mentioned doctors getting divorced, did they initiate the divorce, or did they get dumped? And was the woman that dumped them hot or not?
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Aren't anesthesiologists the doctors who are best with money? Or did they all become day traders and lose everything?
There should be more medical economics classes in medical school, and less kumbaya BS (pretty sure we're the only health care profession teaching the kumbaya, since every other health profession is relentless at screwing us).
There should be more medical economics classes in medical school, and less kumbaya BS (pretty sure we're the only health care profession teaching the kumbaya, since every other health profession is relentless at screwing us).
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I work with an orthopod who's on wife number 4 or 5. He works harder and longer hours than any surgeon I've ever known, in any specialty.
He's about 70.
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Haha or u can get a prenup especially if you've been jacked once before
How competitive is this job in Hawaii where your boss would be the CRNA?
http://www.gaswork.com/post/141581
http://www.gaswork.com/post/141581
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Wow that's interesting. How common is that?
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Its definitely out there. There are CRNA owned groups in Texas that EMPLOY physicians to "supervise" the CRNAs since Texas has not opted out (yet). Basically these pieces of s--t physicians sit on their a---s sign charts and accept all the liability for the CRNAs they supposedly are supervising. But I'm sure they are paid handsomely for it.
Yea I can't stand the AANA, but honestly the fact that there are physicians out there who accept this role speaks a lot to how far people will go if they are paid.
That is until they get booted out from their job if (when) Texas opts out.
These colleagues of ours are the reason why we are in the trouble that we are in. And the nurses are right in calling us worthless and replaceable if this is the role we choose to accept.
Yea I can't stand the AANA, but honestly the fact that there are physicians out there who accept this role speaks a lot to how far people will go if they are paid.
That is until they get booted out from their job if (when) Texas opts out.
These colleagues of ours are the reason why we are in the trouble that we are in. And the nurses are right in calling us worthless and replaceable if this is the role we choose to accept.
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Well said. I despise such "colleagues". Whether its too late or not it is our duty as true anesthesiologist to bring honor and respect back to our profession.
MSIV here potentially interested in gas. So exactly how bad is the job market? Three questions:
1) Any graduating residents not able to find job or had to settle in an undesirable location?
2) Starting income wise, what kind of offers are/were you getting?
3) Partner tracks...how rare are they?
Thanks
1) Any graduating residents not able to find job or had to settle in an undesirable location?
2) Starting income wise, what kind of offers are/were you getting?
3) Partner tracks...how rare are they?
Thanks
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graduating residents are having a harder time finding what they want so they do fellowships
an offer mid 200s is VERY COMMON with 5- 6 calls a month. NO NEGOTIATIONS! meaning take it or leave it. If you dont take it someone else will
partner tracks thing of the past my friend
Anesthesiologists are the ceos new bi tch. True story
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1. The residents and fellows I work with secure good jobs. Our fellows get/got into the tight markets over the last few years, including some great groups.
2.Can't say what passes for starting salary now.
3.There are fewer available, BY REPORT HERE, but the guys I trained who went into PP seemed to find partner track jobs. This forum is a small slice of the market. After all the worry, it seems the newly minted folks actually did get good jobs. Good academic spots as well.
I suspect some of this is old dudes crushed with a bad market and low returns working an extra few years and fear of Obama care cuts and not wanting to guarantee partner spots when it may mean their income will drop even more. The old guys will retire, Obama care is an unknown for everyone.
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"The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is."
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attending here, out of residency ~4 years now. already paid off 200k student loans, bought new home last year. making more money than i ever imagined... 3-4 times more than internist brother. had multiple offers coming out. fellowship will help in job search but not necessary if you go to a top tier residency. most friends working for AMCs are taking home 300-400/yr. you could do a lot worse in other specialties. good luck
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2008 is not 2012 and certainly will not be 2016 in terms of job opportunities or income.
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I've followed this website for many years in my training. I thought I would give an example from a NW group.
Good residents that are team players and well liked in the class will usually get first shot at most of the good jobs. Word of mouth by attendings and surgeons are a powerful tool. Negative opinions can be very damaging.
I'm in a PP fully democratic group of 50 MD's. Great relationship with hospitals and surgeons. Eat what you kill with blended units. Third party scheduler and everyone is partner once written and oral boards passed with quarterly mentor meetings to insure everyone is on track. Salary is >$400 k and benefits that are very tax friendly.
Our group is committed to MD only practice and everyone here seems to enjoy that level of security and patient care......including surgeons and hospital administration. Extremely active board of directors that are democratically elected with term limits have made our group invaluable to the community. Our board also is active clinically and this helps to make changes to group policies or changes to our clinical practice in order to stay ahead of any problems that might arise.
I graduated a couple of years ago from residency and had many many offers for jobs. I wasn't chief and I wasn't connected at all. I made sure to work hard and be professional to everyone, you never know who can help you later or sink you too. In my limited experience, I would stay away from salary positions, the quality of the work done at my institution is top notch because it's everyone's reputation on the line, unlike some salary positions that hire anyone that's willing to take a paycheck and go home.
I hope this helps someone because I had a lot of the same questions coming out and had a hard time finding good opinions. The world of medicine is changing but just like any other job, if you want a good job with good stability, you have to be willing to do the legwork to keep your business competitive.
With that being said....life is definately better after graduation and I LOVE my job even though there so much uncertainty. Good surgeons and hospital admin know the value of good patient care thus I believe our services will be needed well into the future.
Good luck
Good residents that are team players and well liked in the class will usually get first shot at most of the good jobs. Word of mouth by attendings and surgeons are a powerful tool. Negative opinions can be very damaging.
I'm in a PP fully democratic group of 50 MD's. Great relationship with hospitals and surgeons. Eat what you kill with blended units. Third party scheduler and everyone is partner once written and oral boards passed with quarterly mentor meetings to insure everyone is on track. Salary is >$400 k and benefits that are very tax friendly.
Our group is committed to MD only practice and everyone here seems to enjoy that level of security and patient care......including surgeons and hospital administration. Extremely active board of directors that are democratically elected with term limits have made our group invaluable to the community. Our board also is active clinically and this helps to make changes to group policies or changes to our clinical practice in order to stay ahead of any problems that might arise.
I graduated a couple of years ago from residency and had many many offers for jobs. I wasn't chief and I wasn't connected at all. I made sure to work hard and be professional to everyone, you never know who can help you later or sink you too. In my limited experience, I would stay away from salary positions, the quality of the work done at my institution is top notch because it's everyone's reputation on the line, unlike some salary positions that hire anyone that's willing to take a paycheck and go home.
I hope this helps someone because I had a lot of the same questions coming out and had a hard time finding good opinions. The world of medicine is changing but just like any other job, if you want a good job with good stability, you have to be willing to do the legwork to keep your business competitive.
With that being said....life is definately better after graduation and I LOVE my job even though there so much uncertainty. Good surgeons and hospital admin know the value of good patient care thus I believe our services will be needed well into the future.
Good luck
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Just finished residency. I interviewed with 4 partnership track groups in major metro areas so they are definitely still out there but they do not advertise. I landed interviews by cold calling in the area where I completed my training and through connections in my home town. I got the distinct impression that older partners are not retiring and they do not want to hire new grads despite currently being understaffed and working harder than some the partners would like. I received two offers and will be joining a two year partnership track all MD group. I interviewed with physician only groups so they are still out there as well. I believe that the job market is entering or most likely already a entered a lean period, when it will end is anyone's guess. Never too early to start looking for work. I started 13 to 14 months before completing my residency.
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Very nice post and Congrads on landing such a good job.
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Excellent post and very well said. I honestly believe there will always be jobs for those who are willing to eat what they kill, and be good at it. It is the ultimate model of efficiency. While the job market will get harder, the good Anesthesiologists will continue to be in demand. Atleast that is what I tell myself. 🙂
