Job market tight across the country

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Dual career pathology jobs can also be problematic as some places won't even think about hiring spouses to work together. They will (mostly) take the same vacation days, if they start fighting it's a huge problem, and if they ever leave the group they may leave simultaneously. So I would not expect to find many places hiring two married pathologists outside of large academic centers.

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Find a woman who is content staying home taking care of the children is the take home message.
Or find a woman that makes a great salary and doesn't want children. Win-win.
 
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I didn't really care for Soylent Green movie. Saw it a few times when I was a kid. Of all the 70s apocalyptic movies, I was more of a Logan's Run, Planet of the Apes, Mad Max, Dawn of the Dead guy.

Damnation Alley probably is at the bottom of my list.

Watching all those Apocalyptic movies is probably why we are so negative about pathology's future.
 
I didn't really care for Soylent Green movie. Saw it a few times when I was a kid. Of all the 70s apocalyptic movies, I was more of a Logan's Run, Planet of the Apes, Mad Max, Dawn of the Dead guy.

Damnation Alley probably is at the bottom of my list.

Watching all those Apocalyptic movies is probably why we are so negative about pathology's future.

It's worth a re-watching IMHO. How'd you feel about "the Omega Man"?
 
I actually did re-watch Soylent Green on Turner Classic Movies one night a few years ago. They had apocalyptic night with a double feature of Soylent Green followed by Logan's Run. Soylent Green bores me, almost to the same level as The English Patient. The euthanasia scene for Edgar G Robinson was interesting. I always wondered if South Park spoofed that in the Gobbles the Turkey episode.

I liked Omega Man. I also loved Escape from New York. Forgot about those two.

Boy, we were all totally brainwashed growing up in the 70s to believe overpopulation is bad, people are stupid and can't figure out how to fix problems. No wonder a lot of us quit having kids and are generally miserable people. Thanks a lot Hollywood. They are having the same effect on the current generation, as that "climate girl" has shown us.
 
There are pathologists who are retiring for sure. I interviewed at a place where 2-3 pathologists will be retiring in the next few years. I think older pathologists will gradually retire over time.
 
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You guys think that there will be a real demand again in a couple decades?

Active Physicians by Age and Specialty, 2017

I posted a link that shows how about 2/3 of pathologists are closer to retirement age. Wouldnt this lead to a better job market for upcoming pathologists?

No. As the specialty consolidates, waste gets cut, and technology advances, there will be far less demand for pathologists. Coupled with the overtraining taking place across the country, a shortage has not occurred now as predicted and will never occur.
 
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No. As the specialty consolidates, waste gets cut, and technology advances, there will be far less demand for pathologists. Coupled with the overtraining taking place across the country, a shortage has not occurred now as predicted and will never occur.

I agree there is no shortage of pathologists based on my job search. That’s just my own personal feel. People predict there will be a shortage in the future. Not sure.

Maybe a shortage of well trained general pathologists.
 
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I agree there is no shortage of pathologists based on my job search. That’s just my own personal feel. People predict there will be a shortage in the future. I don’t think so as there will always be programs pumping out trainees.

Maybe a shortage of well trained general pathologists.

Anyone predicting a shortage in path is probably on the take pushing some agenda.
 
Jobs are there if you are willing.

I randomly got offered a job the other day, wasn't ready to move from where I am yet.

I have 5 or 6 locums companies call me a week with the states I am licensed in (they must by the list from the medical boards).

My mediocre junior associate got a job lickty split in another state without a fellowship.

The jobs are there if you are willing. With no medical director experience at a major hospital the big boy jobs will be few and far between. With academics I am sure you all know "the rest of the story..."
 
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Yah people with even questionable resumes are all the sudden getting job offers quick. I can vouch for that. What the real driver is Im not 100% sure but with the stock market at an absolute peak level and RE peaked, my educated guess is that older pathologists are seeing the future and hitting the parachute in numbers never before seen. The change to me is absolutely shocking after years and years of garbage since I joined SDN when it first started.

I think what the final evolution of this will result in is a collapse of the large commercial glass mills which simply cant staff at the 200K or less price range to make much profit. You will find cases flooding back to community practices which simply dont have the capacity to read them. Combined with a demographic shift to elderly citizens who need more biopsies and the push for more molecular studies also spiking biopsy needs, the workload may move upwards in completely unprecedented ways given there is zero ability for the profession to really handle anything above steady state well.

The question is what will happen when this music proverbially stops.

Adoption of AI slide analysis would be one dystopian future that could result. Ironically most health systems would rather have AI read slides than actually pay pathologists more to read more. AI adoption by any large player like an Accession, Kaiser, VA Healthsystem etc. would result in a total cratering of the pathologist trainee pipeline even more than it is now. Anyone with large student loans (most) would steer completely away from the field and overnight many if not most training programs would evaporate.

From my experience doing medmal work, I will say AI slide reading will end in a bang as sporadic cases of egregious misdiagnoses by the AI system will splash across headlines and software analytics companies that went into this arena will be driven completely under by mass tort lawsuits. Politicians will demand AI read material is re-reviewed by a real human, resulting in massive flood again of work back to the few saps who remain.

What I dont think will happen is a natural market response to a shortage of pathologists: increased pay. Medical economics and political science have now entered a state where the public thinks "pathologists are paid plenty and even if they are overworked and mistreated, they will not get one dollar more!"

I say this because I really see this already happening in some other fields like GI where GI folks are getting impossible to attract however medical groups are not raising their offered wages because the income simply isnt there. Its really crazy.

I remember going to a conference in like 1993 from a random academic who said the future of medicine in America wont revolve around pay, insurance, malpractice, lifestyle, education, burnout or any of a dozen things common sense might predict but instead will be a crisis of ACCESS. I want my breast biopsy read will be greeted with "someone in India will help in the next 7-10 business days." I remember thinking how crazy that lecture was and now I have a bad feeling is prophetic.
 
Yah people with even questionable resumes are all the sudden getting job offers quick. I can vouch for that. What the real driver is Im not 100% sure but with the stock market at an absolute peak level and RE peaked, my educated guess is that older pathologists are seeing the future and hitting the parachute in numbers never before seen. The change to me is absolutely shocking after years and years of garbage since I joined SDN when it first started.

I think what the final evolution of this will result in is a collapse of the large commercial glass mills which simply cant staff at the 200K or less price range to make much profit. You will find cases flooding back to community practices which simply dont have the capacity to read them. Combined with a demographic shift to elderly citizens who need more biopsies and the push for more molecular studies also spiking biopsy needs, the workload may move upwards in completely unprecedented ways given there is zero ability for the profession to really handle anything above steady state well.

The question is what will happen when this music proverbially stops.

Adoption of AI slide analysis would be one dystopian future that could result. Ironically most health systems would rather have AI read slides than actually pay pathologists more to read more. AI adoption by any large player like an Accession, Kaiser, VA Healthsystem etc. would result in a total cratering of the pathologist trainee pipeline even more than it is now. Anyone with large student loans (most) would steer completely away from the field and overnight many if not most training programs would evaporate.

From my experience doing medmal work, I will say AI slide reading will end in a bang as sporadic cases of egregious misdiagnoses by the AI system will splash across headlines and software analytics companies that went into this arena will be driven completely under by mass tort lawsuits. Politicians will demand AI read material is re-reviewed by a real human, resulting in massive flood again of work back to the few saps who remain.

What I dont think will happen is a natural market response to a shortage of pathologists: increased pay. Medical economics and political science have now entered a state where the public thinks "pathologists are paid plenty and even if they are overworked and mistreated, they will not get one dollar more!"

I say this because I really see this already happening in some other fields like GI where GI folks are getting impossible to attract however medical groups are not raising their offered wages because the income simply isnt there. Its really crazy.

I remember going to a conference in like 1993 from a random academic who said the future of medicine in America wont revolve around pay, insurance, malpractice, lifestyle, education, burnout or any of a dozen things common sense might predict but instead will be a crisis of ACCESS. I want my breast biopsy read will be greeted with "someone in India will help in the next 7-10 business days." I remember thinking how crazy that lecture was and now I have a bad feeling is prophetic.
I think it is more likely slides will be digitally transmitted to low cost pathologists all over the world or that they will come here on J-1 visas.Also fewer types of specimens will be examined.I would love to see the pendulum start to swing the other way.By the time it does we will be getting $10 per 88305 i fear.
 
The retirement cliff thing. Yep, heard that for decades. Nope, hasn't happened yet. Won't believe it this decade either.

Consolidation, efficiency....less pathologists. There will never be a shortage. Lots and lots of candidates. You get to beg for a job and spend your career begging for work. Pathology is the crap show of medicine.

Recent testimonials:

Thank you! I’m amazed at the amount of activity I’ve already received from my post. Thanks again for your help. Monica Morris, FASPR, Director of Physician Recruitment, Tift Regional Health System, Georgia, 11 November 2019

Thank you for posting our advertisement for our open pathologist position. It was extremely effective in sending us quality candidates. Jessica Halfacre, Bakersfield Pathology Medical Group, California, 01 October 2019

"We got a tremendous response to you placing our ad." Dr. Welsh, Pathology Associates of Anaheim, California, 11 September 2019
 
Maybe Donald Trump will cause pathology job market to improve because so many pathologist's retirement accounts have swelled since he took office. The retirement cliff may happen.

If we ever do have a shortage, just increase the exclusion list and send some time consuming, worthless specimens into the trash rather than the laboratory. Use our skills where the are actually needed.
 
I can say SOMETHING has changed. The fall of 2019 is the literally the first time I stopped getting calls from headhunters on whether I wanted to hire someone and began getting calls on whether I had someone to work such and such random gig. I also marked on my google calendar literally the first time I got an actual medical directorship position was wide open, something you would have never seen in the past 2-3 decades.

That is a huge sea change. I have not received a single cold call on whether I needed a locums provider in over 9 months now, which is simply unprecedented since I opened my shop.

I am not saying one way or the other definitely the "retirement cliff" thing is hitting, what Im saying is that COULD be a cause. But something has changed, Im not BSing here.

Anyone who knows me on SDN knows I absolutely do not have any agenda to be the cheerleader for such dead husk organizations like CAP.

But something has changed. I have no clue what will happen, but personally I think Im just going to grind it out for the next 8-9 years and ghost. Any rational pathology group would have hired at least another pathologist in my position but I have held back. I spent over 200,000USD+ on locums and PT pathologists in 2017, only 90,000 in 2018 and now a mere 41,000 in 2019. Meanwhile total practice income has increased double digits every year. Any math I do puts a new "right out of training" associate pathologist for me at a negative balance of 300,000 from my current income for probably less time off than Im getting now. Each -300K year puts me almost one year further out from parachute jump.

Lean and mean is only the way forward.
 
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I have definitely noticed an uptick in job offers from recruiters and colleagues in the past year. I don't think there will be a true shortage, however, if you look at the demographics of pathologists there is obviously a bent towards older docs.
 
No. As


No. As the specialty consolidates, waste gets cut, and technology advances, there will be far less demand for pathologists. Coupled with the overtraining taking place across the country, a shortage has not occurred now as predicted and will never occur.

Thanks for the inputs. I think many professions go through saturation cycles. The overtraining is a legit concern as seats keep getting filled. For path, are the tech advances (i.e AI slide analysis) really so promising that it's taking away jobs? What other key factors are hurting the job market? Sorry, I dont know a lot about the profession.
 
Thanks for the inputs. I think many professions go through saturation cycles. The overtraining is a legit concern as seats keep getting filled. For path, are the tech advances (i.e AI slide analysis) really so promising that it's taking away jobs? What other key factors are hurting the job market? Sorry, I dont know a lot about the profession.

No AI isn’t having an effect yet to my knowledge. I don’t know how far it’s come though. If AI affects pathology it’ll disrupt everything in medicine in general I think.
 
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AI isn't going to kill off pathology any time soon. As an AI dork, I know the current algorithms are all proof of concept at best and garbage most of the time. There's also not as much financial incentive in path as you'd think, especially compared to radiology which is already mostly digital. H&E is cheap. Path residencies don't seem to be closing down. Digital slide scanners are expensive. Once useful AI algorithms get embedded in slide scanners, things might, might change for pathology, but hopefully for the better. The AI algorithm can aid in the mind-numbing quantification and count all the mitoses and glomeruli for you, eg. If quantum computing ever gets off the ground, then maybe we'll be in danger of being replaced.
 
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AI isn't going to kill off pathology any time soon. As an AI dork, I know the current algorithms are all proof of concept at best and garbage most of the time. There's also not as much financial incentive in path as you'd think, especially compared to radiology which is already mostly digital. H&E is cheap. Path residencies don't seem to be closing down. Digital slide scanners are expensive. Once useful AI algorithms get embedded in slide scanners, things might, might change for pathology, but hopefully for the better. The AI algorithm can aid in the mind-numbing quantification and count all the mitoses and glomeruli for you, eg. If quantum computing ever gets off the ground, then maybe we'll be in danger of being replaced.

I echo the financial aspect. I'm sensitive to the financial constraints hospitals face, but sometimes it can get crazy. I have been in many meetings in which we are evaluating contracts in the 10's of millions and people are worried about a difference between 2 vendors of a couple hundred thousand. I was talking to a colleague recently about OSU digitizing their slides and they even went back several years. As we all know, probably 95% of these slides will never be looked at, so it is a huge expense with little return. However, a large academic center can do that. Your average community hospital cannot. Perhaps places like Kaiser can move ahead with some of this stuff, but not places like the VA. They are still using DOS-based clinical applications. Let that sink in.
 
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