Job Prospects

[319671]

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I'm a pre optometry student, but I was wondering what ODs look for in hiring a new grad? I got accepted to IAUPR, but I also am considering a newly opened unaccredited school (I would be part of the 1st graduating class). Which would be a better choice from a career perspective?

 

[KHE]

I'm a pre optometry student, but I was wondering what ODs look for in hiring a new grad? I got accepted to IAUPR, but I also am considering a newly opened unaccredited school (I would be part of the 1st graduating class). Which would be a better choice from a career perspective?

Unless you are actually Puerto Rican, IUAPR is generally regarded as "last chance U."

If you attend one of the new schools, people may be interested in knowing why you chose that school. If you're from Mass or southern California, people won't care. Otherwise, it will be assumed that you couldn't get in anywhere else and that will reflect negatively.

As far as what I personally look for in a doctor, I look for someone who I think can make money for me and the practice. If you can do that, your school won't matter much.

 

[mjl]

From what I have read, I would choose IAUPR. Seems like going to one of the newest unaccredited schools is too much of a risk

 

[319671]

Unless you are actually Puerto Rican, IUAPR is generally regarded as "last chance U."

If you attend one of the new schools, people may be interested in knowing why you chose that school. If you're from Mass or southern California, people won't care. Otherwise, it will be assumed that you couldn't get in anywhere else and that will reflect negatively.

As far as what I personally look for in a doctor, I look for someone who I think can make money for me and the practice. If you can do that, your school won't matter much.

if it comes down to equal ability, who will end up getting the job? the new school grad or the IAUPR grad? if i'm applying for a job, will I even be considered if I went to IAUPR, if I am, with what stigma am I viewed?

 

[q1we3]

I thought you were accepted at PCO, what happened?

 

[KHE]

if it comes down to equal ability, who will end up getting the job? the new school grad or the IAUPR grad? if i'm applying for a job, will I even be considered if I went to IAUPR, if I am, with what stigma am I viewed?

I guess it depends. If it were me personally, probably the new school grad.

 

[319671]

I thought you were accepted at PCO, what happened?

on hold

 

[ATXDesi]

I'm a pre optometry student, but I was wondering what ODs look for in hiring a new grad? I got accepted to IAUPR, but I also am considering a newly opened unaccredited school (I would be part of the 1st graduating class). Which would be a better choice from a career perspective?

I think your missing a point here in regards to school choice and job perspective. You will get the same training..etc at any school regardless. When you graduate, your not guaranteed a job based on school or talent (unless you want to flip dials at AB...etc). You will have to actively pursue and express "your qualities" as a new grad to a prospect employer, as to how you can benefit their practice..etc.

At the end of the day it wont matter where you get your OD from, as long as you are licensed and can show that you wont be wasted money to the office...you should be fine.

 

[Jason K]

I think your missing a point here in regards to school choice and job perspective. You will get the same training..etc at any school regardless.

I can't agree with you on this point. Having worked with hundreds of interns from several different programs, I can say with relative certainty that not all programs create the same level of quality. It's certainly not 100% predictable in that some of the programs that tend to produce lower quality interns will on occasion, produce a very good one. Other programs that tend to put out higher caliber interns will sometimes send out a total train wreck.

This is one of the problems facing optometry today that is certainly only going to get worse. We have "standards" that are pathetically low. The NBEO clinical portion is ridiculously lenient and every year, dozens and dozens of clinicians who have no business seeing patients are being let through the gates and released on the public because they demonstrated "minimum competency." Examples? In several years of working as a clinical preceptor in an extramural site that rotated interns from a few programs, I had the opportunity to work with clinicians who are absolutely not qualified to see patients. I had a 4th year intern in her LAST rotation who was in the habit of instilling a steady stream of DPAs when she was dilating a patient. I asked her "Where on earth did you learn to instill drops like that?" She told me, "Uhhhh....I don't know, I just have always done it like that and no one ever told me it was wrong." I've had 4th year students who could not view retinal periphery on a fully dilated patient. I've had 4th year interns who were absolutely incapable of using a 3 or 4 mirror, let alone interpret what they were looking at. Nearly all of those people ended up passing boards - and I have no idea how.

All I'm saying is, when you say that "you get the same training no matter where you go..." that's not the case. Different programs have different emphases and some work you harder and smarter than others. If you go to a program with a history of producing substandard interns, you'll have to work extra hard to come out with skills that will not expose you as such.

 

[KHE]

I can't agree with you on this point. Having worked with hundreds of interns from several different programs, I can say with relative certainty that not all programs create the same level of quality. It's certainly not 100% predictable in that some of the programs that tend to produce lower quality interns will on occasion, produce a very good one. Other programs that tend to put out higher caliber interns will sometimes send out a total train wreck.

This is one of the problems facing optometry today that is certainly only going to get worse. We have "standards" that are pathetically low. The NBEO clinical portion is ridiculously lenient and every year, dozens and dozens of clinicians who have no business seeing patients are being let through the gates and released on the public because they demonstrated "minimum competency." Examples? In several years of working as a clinical preceptor in an extramural site that rotated interns from a few programs, I had the opportunity to work with clinicians who are absolutely not qualified to see patients. I had a 4th year intern in her LAST rotation who was in the habit of instilling a steady stream of DPAs when she was dilating a patient. I asked her "Where on earth did you learn to instill drops like that?" She told me, "Uhhhh....I don't know, I just have always done it like that and no one ever told me it was wrong." I've had 4th year students who could not view retinal periphery on a fully dilated patient. I've had 4th year interns who were absolutely incapable of using a 3 or 4 mirror, let alone interpret what they were looking at.

All I'm saying is, when you say that "you get the same training no matter where you go..." that's not the case. Different programs have different emphases and some work you harder and smarter than others. If you go to a program with a history of producing substandard interns, you'll have to work extra hard to come out with skills that will not expose you as such.

You have stated on here that you graduated in 2006.

If that is true, then in what context have you had the opportunity to work with "hundreds of interns?"

You say "in several years of working as a clinical preceptor at external sites...." What is your definition of several years? Three?

 

[Jason K]

You have stated on here that you graduated in 2006.

If that is true, then in what context have you had the opportunity to work with "hundreds of interns?"

You say "in several years of working as a clinical preceptor at external sites...." What is your definition of several years? Three?

Because I worked in both extramural sites and as a clinical instructor in two different optometry schools. That translates to hundreds of interns in just a few years.

What about my question on the dropping out thread? Why the difference?

 

[Shnurek]

You will get the same training..etc at any school regardless.

Couldn't be further from the truth. Simply for the fact that Optometrists in the Oklahoma school do laser procedures on patients while you guys in Puerto Rico can't even prescribe medications. Such ignorance I can only see coming from IAUPR...

 

[ATXDesi]

Couldn't be further from the truth. Simply for the fact that Optometrists in the Oklahoma school do laser procedures on patients while you guys in Puerto Rico can't even prescribe medications. Such ignorance I can only see coming from IAUPR...

and since when are you the know it all? Yes OK folks do Lasers and PR docs cant Rx, but that doesnt reflect the curriculum. That's governed by state law. We learn the exact same thing as anywhere else, do the full exam and prepare the RX. Did you honestly think the pharmacology/prescribing unit was just "cut out" since ODs cant do it here..

 

[Jason K]

and since when are you the know it all? Yes OK folks do Lasers and PR docs cant Rx, but that doesnt reflect the curriculum. That's governed by state law. We learn the exact same thing as anywhere else, do the full exam and prepare the RX. Did you honestly think the pharmacology/prescribing unit was just "cut out" since ODs cant do it here..

The point is, not all programs teach you on a level playing field. The varying ability to teach interns to prescribe medications in the classroom and clinic is just one of the many differences between programs. I'm sorry, but if you are unable to take what you've learned in the classroom and practice it under supervision in clinic, you're not on the same level of competence as someone who has been able to do both. There is no way to have all programs on the exact same level, just like there are MD programs that are better than others, but I'd argue that the worst MDs coming out of school are far better than the worst ODs coming out of school, relatively speaking. I can't believe some of the ODs who are out practicing right now were allowed to be licensed.

Frighteningly, most of the truly terrifying instances of cluelessness that I've encountered have had nothing to do with medication prescription. A lot of times, it's refractive stuff. I had a mid-year 4th year intern once tell me that she was certain she didn't overminus her 23 year old patient because "plus didn't make her vision better." I said, "You do realize that plus shouldn't improve your patient's acuity if she's overminused in this case, right?" She looked at me like I was from another planet. If that intern had been in the program I went to for my OD, she would have been bounced out of the program long before she ever had the chance to demonstrate such a void in refractive knowledge. If you think all programs are the same, you're making assumptions that are not valid.

 

[Shnurek]

and since when are you the know it all? Yes OK folks do Lasers and PR docs cant Rx, but that doesnt reflect the curriculum. That's governed by state law. We learn the exact same thing as anywhere else, do the full exam and prepare the RX. Did you honestly think the pharmacology/prescribing unit was just "cut out" since ODs cant do it here..

Once you start your clinicals 3rd and 4th year you'll see what I mean. You'll get absolutely no hands on practice when it comes to doing advanced procedures or prescribing medications. I as a SUNY student will not get the opportunity to practice prescribing oral medications for example. I will learn it in theory but that does not equate to doing it in clinicals to real patients.

 

[ATXDesi]

The point is, not all programs teach you on a level playing field. The varying ability to teach interns to prescribe medications in the classroom and clinic is just one of the many differences between programs. I'm sorry, but if you are unable to take what you've learned in the classroom and practice it under supervision in clinic, you're not on the same level of competence as someone who has been able to do both. There is no way to have all programs on the exact same level, just like there are MD programs that are better than others, but I'd argue that the worst MDs coming out of school are far better than the worst ODs coming out of school, relatively speaking. I can't believe some of the ODs who are out practicing right now were allowed to be licensed.

Okay, fair point. I do agree that the student must demonstrate ability from classroom to clinic. However with the material presented in class, it is regarded as the student's responsibility to integrate the principles to apply it to clinic. Now with the interns, in your case, who had refracting/gonio problems..etc..who is to blame? the student, the school, the professor, the clinician who graded their proficiency? The argument can turn into a slippery slope, however, I would side with the fact that the student takes a larger amount of responsibility when it comes to demonstrating clinical abilities. You have stated earlier that programs of either type can produce superstars and real duds..Its up to the student step up and connect the dots.

 

[Shnurek]

now with the interns, in your case, who had refracting/gonio problems..etc..who is to blame?

The NBEO.

 

[ATXDesi]

Once you start your clinicals 3rd and 4th year you'll see what I mean. You'll get absolutely no hands on practice when it comes to doing advanced procedures or prescribing medications. I as a SUNY student will not get the opportunity to practice prescribing oral medications for example. I will learn it in theory but that does not equate to doing it in clinicals to real patients.

Again, and you know this how? May I ask which advanced procedures are you talking about? 3rd year clinic is standard. Rxs (and orals) are prepared by the student under supervision of an OMD/MD. 4th year, im not sure about as that depends on your rotation sites and your supervisor.

As a SUNY student you will learn orals in theory, but you can still put it into practice in a different state, if you so choose. However, I do not buy the "not knowing how to prescribe meds" just because I'm in PR.

 

[Shnurek]

-Insertion/removal of punctal plugs
-Corneal foreign body removal
-Nasolacrimal duct irrigation
-Laser procedures
-Lumps and bumps removals
-Injections

The last 3 especially are only done in 1 or 2 schools of optometry.

 

[ATXDesi]

-Insertion/removal of punctal plugs
-Corneal foreign body removal
-Lacrimal gland irrigation
-Laser procedures
-Lumps and bumps removals
-Injections

The last 3 especially are only done in 1 or 2 schools of optometry.

the first two are doable, the third i would have to check on. The last 3 is a no brainer..😛

 

[optsuker]

Unless you are actually Puerto Rican, IUAPR is generally regarded as "last chance U."

If you attend one of the new schools, ....it will be assumed that you couldn't get in anywhere else and that will reflect negatively.

I think this is the opinion held by a large % of practicing OD's.
Why does it matter? Because they're the ones doing the hiring for a lot of the best opportunities.

You are foolish to even consider a new school or IUAPR if you've been accepted elswhere.

Good opportunities are becoming scarce (and just wait until hundreds more new grads start competing for them!). Any decision that will handcuff your chances of getting a good job is crazy.

 

[Judgment Dragon]

on hold

You should wait to hear your PCO decision before exploring other options.

 

[optsuker]

Well what if the new school is in your home state and it would be less expensive to attend the new school?

All but Midwestern already have a school in their state. For Western & the new Mass school, they're just down the road!

Someone would have to be living across the street and saving $10K/year before I'd tell them to pick Western over SCCO.

 

[Meibomian SxN]

on hold

If you are not accepted by PCO then I would not bother. With the debt you will incur by attending IAUPR, unless you get a full paid scholarship, you will be regretting the decision for the rest of your life.

Optometry may interest you and you may feel it is your career goal, but you need to understand that this profession has changed for the worse and career opportunities are very nonexistent, especially with over 1,000 new graduates entering the field EVERY June! 😱

If I were you, I would find another career goal and "regroup". Just giving you honest straight-up advice.

 

[Shnurek]

Was wondering, why don't you take your own advice? 😀

Because it would be 4 years down the drain for him while for a college grad it would barely be any difference.

 

[Meibomian SxN]

As the proverbial saying goes, you're never too old for school!

(err, or something along those lines....)

http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/09/18/never-too-old-78-year-old-starts-first-grade-in-bulgaria/

😱

LOL!

I have thought about and weighed the options of pursuing another "career" (I quote it because there's a difference between a job and a career). In many aspects it would not be the right move to pursue medical school because I have a family (growing family at that) now and would have to tack on another $200K in debt, aside from the 4+1 years of schooling and 4-5yr residency training. 😱

I have thought of nursing (Gaylord Fauker, OD) and felt that I have over 5yrs of footing in this career and could possibly ride it out. Also my position in a group practice right now seems to be better than many of my colleagues, who are mostly doing some sort of commercial "gig" and making the best of it. Never did they think they would be setting up a practice next to the bras in JC Pennys or a closet in Costco, but these are the realities.

And so although I did not jump ship as of yet, I am definitely keeping my options open. There's always a chance that the big mighty corporate machine fail and we gain 90% of our profession back. Until then, I'm playing with the cards I have.

I will say, if you are still pursuant to optometry after weighing the pros & cons, DEFINITELY take your degree out to the middle of nowhere (Mid-West, South etc) and practice whatever mode you choose.

 

[Shnurek]

I will say, if you are still pursuant to optometry after weighing the pros & cons, DEFINITELY take your degree out to the middle of nowhere (Mid-West, South etc) and practice whatever mode you choose.

👍👍👍

 

[Judgment Dragon]

Honestly, if I got rejected from PCO, but still got an interview, I would reapply next year and ace the interview.

 

[hello07]

"Get rejected from PCO, but still got an interview, I would reapply next year and ace the interview." This is absurd! If you got rejected- say thank you! Why would you degrading yourself? When I got accepted into Optometry school back in the late 80's (on first attempt-straight out of undergard)they were 2200-2400 applications for 115 seats. Competition was fierce. Nowadays, you got the AOA blowing smoke and a guy named L Walls, OD MD being paid big $$$$$ starting a new OD in 8-12. From 16 schools and PR, we are at 19 and one next year 20. Apply to Med school- better opportunities await you and you'll be more marketable in any specialty.
IMHO, the heydays of optometry are gone........................
Best wishes!

 

[dinkus]

"Get rejected from PCO, but still got an interview, I would reapply next year and ace the interview." This is absurd! If you got rejected- say thank you! Why would you degrading yourself? When I got accepted into Optometry school back in the late 80's (on first attempt-straight out of undergard)they were 2200-2400 applications for 115 seats. Competition was fierce. Nowadays, you got the AOA blowing smoke and a guy named L Walls, OD MD being paid big $$$$$ starting a new OD in 8-12. From 16 schools and PR, we are at 19 and one next year 20. Apply to Med school- better opportunities await you and you'll be more marketable in any specialty.
IMHO, the heydays of optometry are gone........................
Best wishes!

I don't think those numbers have changed much. Competition has generally increased across all health professions. Do you have any statistics that suggest that the opposite is true for optometry?

edit: I just checked the ICO entering class profile and the number of applicants has decreased dramatically. Never mind.

 

[Judgment Dragon]

Ask PCO to see if they have a waiting list.