John Hopkins Undergrad - Worth the $$$?

[mavikedi]

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Hello all! I am a concerned older sister asking this question for my younger brother who needs to decide very soon whether to go to John Hopkins or UVA.

Price comparisons: (Tuition+Cost of living)
JHU: 66k/year
UVA: 27-30k/year (we are in-state for UVA)

He is interested in pursuing a biomedical engineering degree & doing pre-med and loves research. He is a kid who works really hard and I know he would succeed anywhere he went, but I'm torn about what advice to give him because he is so in love with JHU.

I, as someone who recently graduated from undergrad at VT and is now applying to med school, initially said that JHU is way too expensive for undergrad. Save that money for graduate school aka med school. But then we visited the campus, and it was beautiful and my little brother is in love it and the amount of research at JHU and I don't want to break his heart.

So is JHU worth the incredibly high price? I have also read that the classes are incredibly hard, and it incredibly competitive for pre-med students.

Thanks!

 

[mavikedi]

Also, I should mention....If he wants to do MD/PhD programs those would be paid for so he wouldn't have to worry about paying for med school, correct?

He's not 100% sure about anything yet though.

 

[intangible]

My background isn't WASP, so I may be biased, but I think he'd be happy anywhere he goes. There's a certain threshold in the quality of a university that is kind of like an all-or-none thing. Universities underneath this threshold may be hit or miss, but anything above it has a pretty high chance of the student being happy (and this is mostly due to the University's ability to rally their brand, education and campus life). Even the most pretentious of students who end up going to school somewhere other than their top choice end up cheering at games by senior year.

The name of the institution is pretty meaningless. A JHU student with a 3.5 might have the same chances as an FAU student with a 3.6, for instance—but that's a mostly subjective decision made by the committee that is implicit by nature, so YMMV. It's a cursory glance; a special consideration that barely holds water in the admissions process.

Is JHU worth it? Yes—resources there are unparalleled by most other universities. However, according to your description of him, it doesn't look like he'll have much of a problem securing resources anywhere else.
Will JHU advance his career? Probably not at all.
Will JHU get him into medical school? No. That's up to him.

 

[BeachBlondie]

With respect to the above response, I have an anecdote:

I went to a state school for undergrad, but I did my pre-requisites at an Ivy League. Unfortunately for me, I had to work 50+ hours per week while taking class -- the only way to pay tuition and...you know...eat! As a result, I earned mostly B's. I was told, verbatim, by someone at one of my prospective schools from the 2014-2015 cycle, "(Ivy League School Name) grades are held with a greater weight than grades from (list of local universities) and will be taken into consideration." It may not be standard at ALL medical schools, but my personal experience suggests that it is considered to some degree. *shrug* That being said, I would tell him to go to the school that resides in an area that would enrich his experience the most. Consider the surrounding towns carefully. And tell him to ENJOY his next few years -- my undergrad stint was awesome!

 

[intangible]

With respect to the above response, I have an anecdote:

I went to a state school for undergrad, but I did my pre-requisites at an Ivy League. Unfortunately for me, I had to work 50+ hours per week while taking class -- the only way to pay tuition and...you know...eat! As a result, I earned mostly B's. I was told, verbatim, by someone at one of my prospective schools from the 2014-2015 cycle, "(Ivy League School Name) grades are held with a greater weight than grades from (list of local universities) and will be taken into consideration." It may not be standard at ALL medical schools, but my personal experience suggests that it is considered to some degree. *shrug* That being said, I would tell him to go to the school that resides in an area that would enrich his experience the most. Consider the surrounding towns carefully. And tell him to ENJOY his next few years -- my undergrad stint was awesome!

This does not at all refute my statement. This consideration is not even remotely as rigorous as you think it is.

When it comes down to it, it's a numbers game, whichever way you want to slice it.

Even Odysseus, with 4 degrees from Harvard and an AMCAS cGPA of 2.75, for example, will be screened by medical schools—just like the mere mortals that didn't go to Harvard with 2.75 GPAs.

Your school can't save you. It's a fact.

 

[Axes]

He should definitely go to JHU. It has the best BME program in the nation (he did apply to this program right?) and the cost will be offset by his eventual physician's salary. And look, he got into Hopkins so this is a hard working kid. He's going to have a 3.8 at whatever schools he goes to-- a JHU 3.8 goes a nontrivial amount farther than a UVA 3.8.

 

[mavikedi]

He didn't get into the BME program, I'm sorry I should have said that above. So now he is considering doing Chemical engineering or biomolecular engineering at JHU if he goes.

He still can do BME if he goes to UVA and VT doesn't have a BME major, only a minor.

 

[Lamel]

Are UVa and JHU even significantly different in terms of quality? Both are high ranked schools.

 

[Axes]

Ah..well then if he has his heart set on BME. But still, a JHU degree will likely serve him somewhat better in the long run.

 

[mavikedi]

Will it though? I mean if he has to pay for graduate school in the future he will already be out like 300k...

And they are both really good schools, he just isn't very happy about UVA because I haven't talked very highly about it (I'm from VT, what can I say?) and apparently some schools from his HS got in due to lineage, while other smarter kids with higher GPA's didn't. It left a bad taste in his mouth.

 

[Lucca]

Depends. If your family can afford it, regardless, then JHU is probably the better choice. However, if finances are an issue, UVA is a fantastic school. I think east coasters (where the tradition is always biased to the private rather than the public education) will favor JHU more while the rest of the country would probably say UVA. For engineering JHU is probably better. If I were in his shoes and my family could afford it, I would go to JHU for the research. However, I didn't know I wanted to do research until I got into college so there's that. He may hate it.

 

[Lamel]

Also keep in mind that he needs to realize what his ultimate goals are. Engineering at JHU may really damage his GPA. In fact, engineering at UVa may do the same. Does he want to be a researcher, work in the engineering industry, or do medicine? Those are 3 different paths and the choice of school will affect all 3 of them differently.

I know so many people who did engineering as a safety net for pre-med, and ended up not ever applying to med school because their numbers were too low.

 

[Axes]

For sure cash is a consideration but doctors make pretty solid $$, at least for now. He can take loans with confidence. Either way he's going to get a fantastic education and he'll be well regarded by ADCOMS as both schools are great.

 

[mavikedi]

He's 18 and very unsure of what he wants to do and even what he likes, other than he knows he enjoys research due to his past internships, etc.
I think he is interested in medicine because my mother is an MD and I'm super passionate about it as well. Other than that he doesn't have much experience with the medical world.

Also, thank you for all the responses and the discussion! I really appreciate it. I just got off the phone with my crying mother who doesn't want my brother to be disappointed and I was like mom chill, no matter where he goes he will be fine in the end and he'll adapt.

 

[Axes]

Wait also how is he still deciding?? Deadline for both regular and wait lists was ages ago?

 

[BeachBlondie]

This does not at all refute my statement. This consideration is not even remotely as rigorous as you think it is.

When it comes down to it, it's a numbers game, whichever way you want to slice it.

Even Odysseus, with 4 degrees from Harvard and an AMCAS cGPA of 2.75, for example, will be screened by medical schools—just like the mere mortals that didn't go to Harvard with 2.75 GPAs.

Your school can't save you. It's a fact.

I wasn't disagreeing with you. Just wanted to give my anecdote, and I DO agree that my story represents n=1. It was food for thought.

 

[mavikedi]

Wait also how is he still deciding?? Deadline for both regular and wait lists was ages ago?

.

 

[Axes]

Apparently my parent's paid the deposits for both schools? Can you do that? Idk how this works lol

Oh wow that's a big no no. If either found out both could rescind

 

[mavikedi]

Oh wow that's a big no no. If either found out both could rescind

...
The only appropriate response:
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Edit: Okay apparently he just got off the wait list so he has three days to respond. I don't know anything.

 

[RedPhys]

Johns Hopkins

 

[Salt Salt]

1. He'll be happy at either school, whether he realizes it or not. It's up to him, not the school. So long as he isn't going to a bad state school or a for-profit or something, he'll be fine.

2. UVA is a large and fantastic research university—one of the best public schools in the country. Certainly comparable to JHU.

3. Choice of university isn't a big factor in medical school admissions. And when it is, that's because the rigor of the coursework is considered to be different. So if JHU is really that much more rigorous, your brother would, on average, get a worse GPA at JHU than he would get at UVA. So there's no real reason to select JHU over UVA if medical school is his eventual goal. In short, choice of undergrad is not that significant for medical school.

4. If he is definitely set on medical school, undergrad is irrelevant in his eventual career. If he attends a Caribbean med school and does a no-name residency, no one would care even if he went to Harvard. A doctor who did a middle tier state school for undergrad then HMS/MGH for med school/residency would be better off. Given that undergrad prestige means nothing in his future career, why spend extra money for the prestige factor?

5. Choose UVA. Take the $35k/yr difference and when he gets into JHU for med school, pretend he won a $140k scholarship! 😀

 

[womanofscience]

Hello all! I am a concerned older sister asking this question for my younger brother who needs to decide very soon whether to go to John Hopkins or UVA.

Price comparisons: (Tuition+Cost of living)
JHU: 66k/year
UVA: 27-30k/year (we are in-state for UVA)

He is interested in pursuing a biomedical engineering degree & doing pre-med and loves research. He is a kid who works really hard and I know he would succeed anywhere he went, but I'm torn about what advice to give him because he is so in love with JHU.

I, as someone who recently graduated from undergrad at VT and is now applying to med school, initially said that JHU is way too expensive for undergrad. Save that money for graduate school aka med school. But then we visited the campus, and it was beautiful and my little brother is in love it and the amount of research at JHU and I don't want to break his heart.

So is JHU worth the incredibly high price? I have also read that the classes are incredibly hard, and it incredibly competitive for pre-med students.

Thanks!

If he can easily adapt to either school, I would say to go with the most financially feasible option (I am also a fellow Virginian). UVA is a pretty solid school and I do not think the price difference is really worth it in this case, especially if he doesn't know what he wants to do post-undergrad. I don't blame him for UVA leaving a sour taste in his mouth... I've heard some pretty interesting things from people involved in the undergrad admissions.

However, a family with both UVA and VT graduates could be pretty interesting 😛

 

[mavikedi]

So just if anyone was curious he decided to go to UVA. It came down to really price difference between the two schools.

It was a really hard decision but I have no doubt he will succeed anywhere he ends up and eventually go to a great graduate school (maybe it will even be JHU).

Thanks again for all the input and advice 🙂

 

[JPA178]

JHU and UVA are great schools, but UVA will allow him to achieve his goals while also having a great "college experience" in the traditional sense.

 

[womanofscience]

So just if anyone was curious he decided to go to UVA. It came down to really price difference between the two schools.

It was a really hard decision but I have no doubt he will succeed anywhere he ends up and eventually go to a great graduate school (maybe it will even be JHU).

Thanks again for all the input and advice 🙂

Tell him to start scoping out outside scholarships as well! Try to bring the overall cost down 🙂

 

[MrMe123]

I am a graduate from JHU. JHU does afford significant advantages for those interested in medicine (it has a huge premedicine program and ~90% acceptance to med school). I don't think it's worth the price difference, however, considering UVA is a great institution. If it was between a state school or JHU for those price tags I would say JHU. However, both JHU and UVA are strong research institutions with large premed departments.

If he does decide to attend JHU, I will say I think my time there was invaluable, and yes it's hard but the difficulty prepared me for medical school and life in general. If he's hardworking and bright with his head on his shoulders you shouldn't worry about it being too competitive. If JHU would make him significantly happier, then I don't think cost should be the barrier. If it's mostly about preparation for med school and med school acceptance, however, I would say go with UVA since the difference isn't that significant.

 

[justadream]

I am a graduate from JHU. JHU does afford significant advantages for those interested in medicine (it has a huge premedicine program and ~90% acceptance to med school). I don't think it's worth the price difference, however, considering UVA is a great institution. If it was between a state school or JHU for those price tags I would say JHU. However, both JHU and UVA are strong research institutions with large premed departments.

If he does decide to attend JHU, I will say I think my time there was invaluable, and yes it's hard but the difficulty prepared me for medical school and life in general. If he's hardworking and bright with his head on his shoulders you shouldn't worry about it being too competitive. If JHU would make him significantly happier, then I don't think cost should be the barrier. If it's mostly about preparation for med school and med school acceptance, however, I would say go with UVA since the difference isn't that significant.

That 90% statistic is likely extremely inflated (in that it only counts certain people or those who make it to the committee or some other factor*). I am highly skeptical of any school that reports numbers that high (not even for schools of HYPMS level).

Also, getting high grades at JHU might be harder than doing so at UVA. So in a practical sense, it might be a disadvantage.

Now if everything else were the same, then I would agree going to JHU is probably better.

*It also does not account for the fact that many people might be weeded out who might not otherwise be at a different school. As an extreme example, let's say a school had a super hard weedout course (harder than almost all the comparable classes at colleges elsewhere). Well if you make it through that class, then you likely are going to be successful (hence the 90% figure). But many students who might not make it through that class have to give up their premed dreams (even if they would have made it through the premed courses at a less rigorous school).

 

[Axes]

That 90% statistic is likely extremely inflated (in that it only counts certain people or those who make it to the committee or some other factor*). I am highly skeptical of any school that reports numbers that high (not even for schools of HYPMS level).

Also, getting high grades at JHU might be harder than doing so at UVA. So in a practical sense, it might be a disadvantage.

Now if everything else were the same, then I would agree going to JHU is probably better.

*It also does not account for the fact that many people might be weeded out who might not otherwise be at a different school. As an extreme example, let's say a school had a super hard weedout course (harder than almost all the comparable classes at colleges elsewhere). Well if you make it through that class, then you likely are going to be successful (hence the 90% figure). But many students who might not make it through that class have to give up their premed dreams (even if they would have made it through the premed courses at a less rigorous school).

I agree. My school claims 85%, but that's because they combine MD and DO acceptances-- and that information is available, but it's definitely in the fine print, so to speak. Somewhat deceptive, if you ask me. @mavikedi, congrats to your brother, he will get a world class education and have a great college experience!

 

[justadream]

I agree. My school claims 85%, but that's because they combine MD and DO acceptances-- and that information is available, but it's definitely in the fine print, so to speak. Somewhat deceptive, if you ask me. @mavikedi, congrats to your brother, he will get a world class education and have a great college experience!

Yep, also oftentimes the statistic is only counting people who get XXX recommendation from the committee (where XXX might be like "highly recommend").

 

[MrMe123]

That 90% statistic is likely extremely inflated (in that it only counts certain people or those who make it to the committee or some other factor*). I am highly skeptical of any school that reports numbers that high (not even for schools of HYPMS level).

Also, getting high grades at JHU might be harder than doing so at UVA. So in a practical sense, it might be a disadvantage.

Now if everything else were the same, then I would agree going to JHU is probably better.

*It also does not account for the fact that many people might be weeded out who might not otherwise be at a different school. As an extreme example, let's say a school had a super hard weedout course (harder than almost all the comparable classes at colleges elsewhere). Well if you make it through that class, then you likely are going to be successful (hence the 90% figure). But many students who might not make it through that class have to give up their premed dreams (even if they would have made it through the premed courses at a less rigorous school).

I personally know of noone who stopped in their med school pursuit due to refusal of the committee to support the applicant (of the ~20 people who are in my circle of friends who pursued medicine) - everyone I know who quit the premed track did so prior to that point in their academic career. The committee does often force applicants to postpone applying for at least one year. More students at JHU take at least one gap year (2/3rds) than the national average (I think 1/2) due to the committee requesting applicants do so.

The people I know that pursued medicine all did exceptionally well in the application process overall, better than I would have expected based solely upon GPA/MCAT.

 

[Axes]

Yep, also oftentimes the statistic is only counting people who get XXX recommendation from the committee (where XXX might be like "highly recommend").

"

Oh true, my uncle (sort of "famous" in the medical world) told me when I was applying to undergrads that JHU has been known to somewhat aggressively "advise" premeds on whether or not to apply to med school based on their numbers. I'm sure many schools do this, hell I'm sure most prestigious schools do this, but just something to think about.

 

[MrMe123]

It's very possible I'm off-base with this, though.

"

Oh true, my uncle (sort of "famous" in the medical world) told me when I was applying to undergrads that JHU has been known to somewhat aggressively "advise" premeds on whether or not to apply to med school based on their numbers. I'm sure many schools do this, hell I'm sure most prestigious schools do this, but just something to think about.

They DO do this, to the extent of pressuring applicants to postpone - not to the extend of barring applying altogether, at least as far as I saw.

 

[justadream]

"

Oh true, my uncle (sort of "famous" in the medical world) told me when I was applying to undergrads that JHU has been known to somewhat aggressively "advise" premeds on whether or not to apply to med school based on their numbers. I'm sure many schools do this, hell I'm sure most prestigious schools do this, but just something to think about.

It's very possible I'm off-base with this, though.

They DO do this.

This is why, IMO, going to a school with no committee is ideal. Don't have to worry about that BS (and competing directly against your school peers).

 

[MrMe123]

This is why, IMO, going to a school with no committee is ideal. Don't have to worry about that BS (and competing directly against your school peers).

My major issue with the committee process is that they did not complete committee packets for applicants until early August to early-mid September. They barred us from applying early.

 

[level1]

He should definitely go the cheaper route. JHU is going to be much harder and if he's more likely to pull a 4.0 at UVA he should go there. Prestige doesn't really factor in as much as people think it does.

 

[Axes]

It's very possible I'm off-base with this, though.

They DO do this, to the extent of pressuring applicants to postpone - not to the extend of barring applying altogether, at least as far as I saw.

Ah okay. Tbh, it's probably good practice to some extent. I mean there's really no point in applying MD with a 3.1, but people should be cognizant that 85% acceptance doesn't mean you're golden from day 1.

 

[Salt Salt]

So just if anyone was curious he decided to go to UVA. It came down to really price difference between the two schools.

It was a really hard decision but I have no doubt he will succeed anywhere he ends up and eventually go to a great graduate school (maybe it will even be JHU).

Thanks again for all the input and advice 🙂

I think this was ultimately the right choice, hands-down. He will be so glad he chose to save that money when it comes time to apply to med school and he's staring at $80k/yr for four years. UVA is a fantastic school, too.

 

[153fish]

Based on one SDNer's observation, it appears both JHU and UVA are rigorous, but JHU grads have a better chance at top med schools.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...an-vcu-honors-students.1139256/#post-16520676

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...an-vcu-honors-students.1139256/#post-16520434