Johnny Depp/Amber Heard trial, anyone?

[futureapppsy2]

No, but I'm not surprised, given some of the other thoughts expressed in the comments, including those purportedly by "psychologists."

They really are painful to read.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Sanman]

They really are painful to read.

I mean the comments might be painful, but look at the topic. We idolize the oddest people in this country.

 

[erg923]

I'm not sure if anyone "idolizes" him anymore? But the trial has certainly gained just as much traction as any number of high profile homicide (or insurrection) trials in the past year. At least from what I see on my phone news feed (which I read maybe twice per week). So, guess that says something, right?

I'm sure Johnny D is capable or prone to most anything given his apparent escalating drug and etoh abuse over the years. Nevertheless, I think we can all agree that this Amber woman also seems like a total ****ing nightmare! From the bullet points I read, the only former partner (of many) who characterized him as slightly nuts, was Jennifer Gray (from Dirty Dancing). Not sure where that is in the timeline though? That said, I haven't kept up with much beyond a few articles on Yahoo news since this thread started.

I remember seeing "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" when in high school and thinking it was kinda cool, but also finding it depressing to witness someone take so many drugs and being confused on why an interesting and mildly entertaining journalist such as Hunter S. Thompson was to be so idolized? By many accounts, he was a philandering booze-hound and a largely absent parent who wrote some insightful articles...GONZO STYLE! I just never really got it, I guess?

It's also kinda sad to see the guy who developed the Viper Room and all that scene not really progress/mature much. Apparently, anyway. Compare this to Christina Applegate's trajectory...

 

[deleted1100659]

The psychologist testifying for Amber Heard was making $500 an hour..wow, that is insane, lol. At 40 hours a week that would equate a nice million a year. Im in the wrong area of psychiatry...

 

[erg923]

The psychologist testifying for Amber Heard was making $500 an hour..wow, that is insane, lol. At 40 hours a week that would equate a nice million a year. Im in the wrong area of psychiatry...

That's an industry. I don't know how to break into that (and I don't really care), but your services are worth what people will pay. In that area, its obviously high. Some of the testimony has actually been very spot on (in terms of clinical/psychometric science)..... and some is quite questionable. It's all what I would suspect in the Hollywoodland, frankly.

I'm just over here wondering if Brad Pitt actually smacked his adopted kid when he was toasted? Seems like easy bucks there, ya???

 

[deleted1100659]

That's an industry. I don't know how to break into that (and I don't really care), but your services are worth what people will pay. In that area, its obviously high. Some of the testimony has actually been very spot on (in terms of clinical/psychometric science)..... and some is a quite questionable. It's all what I would suspect in the Hollywoodland, frankly.

I'm just over here just wondering if Brad Pitt actually smacked his adopted kid when he was toasted? Seems like easy bucks there, ya?

yeah even for a million, I dont think its worth it.

 

[allantois]

My conclusion from the whole thing is that we need less scammy lawyers in this country

 

[Sanman]

That's an industry. I don't know how to break into that (and I don't really care), but your services are worth what people will pay. In that area, its obviously high. Some of the testimony has actually been very spot on (in terms of clinical/psychometric science)..... and some is quite questionable. It's all what I would suspect in the Hollywoodland, frankly.

I'm just over here wondering if Brad Pitt actually smacked his adopted kid when he was toasted? Seems like easy bucks there, ya???

I'm just wondering why these two forensic psychs. I know more qualified folks that could have been hired for this case.

 

[MAClinician]

I'm just wondering why these two forensic psychs. I know more qualified folks that could have been hired for this case.

I wonder how many were approached and said “no thanks” given the crazy accusations lol

 

[allantois]

I'm just wondering why these two forensic psychs. I know more qualified folks that could have been hired for this case.

Amber Heard's psych has testified that she has worked with her lawyers in the past. She has also disclosed that her rate for the case has been $500/hour

 

[futureapppsy2]

The psychologist testifying for Amber Heard was making $500 an hour..wow, that is insane, lol. At 40 hours a week that would equate a nice million a year. Im in the wrong area of psychiatry...

I mean, high-end forensic testimony not usually a consistent 40 hour a week job.

 

[allantois]

The psychologist testifying for Amber Heard was making $500 an hour..wow, that is insane, lol. At 40 hours a week that would equate a nice million a year. Im in the wrong area of psychiatry...

I don’t know what the average is, but it doesn’t seem that high even for clinical work for NYC.. Johnny Depp’s business manager stated that he charges over $700 per hour for work and I’m sure crooked lawyers charge way more than that as it was
alluded that Johnny Depp paid off Amber Heard’s legal fees of 500k

If anything, I suspect the main motivations are not financial in this witness’s testimony

 

[DynamicDidactic]

I'm curious everyone's thoughts on her response to the question about BPD being overrepresented in women...

I did not watch this video but..

This is a bit of a contested issue in the academic world. Lots of poorly sampled old research (along with general biases in society) led to people thinking that BPD was not just overrepresented in women but almost exclusively found in women. In more recent and better sampled research, there is either no difference or the difference is statistically significant but not clinically significant.

It just happens that women with BPD show up to mental health centers while men with BPD likely end up dead or in prison.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

For the histrionic PD discussion:

I am in the camp that supports a more dimensional approach to PDs. I don't see any more or less validity in histrionic PD than BPD and I am fairly certain there is no evidence to indicate otherwise. Histrionic is no more or less sketchy, to me, than BPD. All of the PDs overlap a great deal and the DSM's current gerrymandering of symptoms (hope that makes sense) is a poor reflection of these problems in the real world. I agree with @CheetahGirl that a more accurate description should just include the traits. Though, I understand why a diagnosis is more salient for a jury in a court.

I haven't watched the video and am avoiding it. The DBT listserv has been very critical of the BPD discussion.

Also, I just checked the top comments and they seem to all be supportive, appropriate and not troll-y at all.

 

[deleted1100659]

I mean, high-end forensic testimony not usually a consistent 40 hour a week job.

Sure but 20 hours a week would still equate to 500k a year gross, lol. Even 10 hours a week is quite a bit of money at that rate.

 

[WisNeuro]

I mean, high-end forensic testimony not usually a consistent 40 hour a week job.

In terms of the hourly rate for depo/testimony work, I wouldn't consider 500/hour high end necessarily.

 

[PsyDr]

Sure but 20 hours a week would still equate to 500k a year gross, lol. Even 10 hours a week is quite a bit of money at that rate.

It’s more like, “work long hours in short bursts of time, and then stress for the next few months about when the next big paycheck is coming”

 

[WisNeuro]

It’s more like, “work long hours in short bursts of time, and then stress for the next few months about when the next big paycheck is coming”

Definitely comes in bursts now and then. But, with the scaling back/retirement of a few people who do IME work here in recent years, I turn down a case at least once a month from just not having time in the frame in which they need the eval. Even after scaling my lower-paying clinical work back. I imagine somewhat location/saturation dependent.

 

[allantois]

Sure but 20 hours a week would still equate to 500k a year gross, lol. Even 10 hours a week is quite a bit of money at that rate.

She stated that forensic work brings in half of her income, however, the majority of her work is clinical as she also does pro bono work. The lawyers tried to go after her for doing primarily forensic work in her practice

 

[WisNeuro]

She stated that forensic work brings in half of her income, however, the majority of her work is clinical as she also does pro bono work. The lawyers tried to go after her for doing primarily forensic work in her practice

Pretty standard line of questioning, even in non-high profile cases.

 

[PsyDr]

She stated that forensic work brings in half of her income, however, the majority of her work is clinical as she also does pro bono work. The lawyers tried to go after her for doing primarily forensic work in her practice

Who cares?

"Like you counselor, I specialize in working in legal settings. Are you implying that there is something wrong with our mutual areas of specialization?"

The only time treatment matters is if you are arguing about treatment. Then they can say you don't know how treatment "really works".

 

[cara susanna]

For the histrionic PD discussion:

I am in the camp that supports a more dimensional approach to PDs. I don't see any more or less validity in histrionic PD than BPD and I am fairly certain there is no evidence to indicate otherwise. Histrionic is no more or less sketchy, to me, than BPD. All of the PDs overlap a great deal and the DSM's current gerrymandering of symptoms (hope that makes sense) is a poor reflection of these problems in the real world. I agree with @CheetahGirl that a more accurate description should just include the traits. Though, I understand why a diagnosis is more salient for a jury in a court.

I haven't watched the video and am avoiding it. The DBT listserv has been very critical of the BPD discussion.

Also, I just checked the top comments and they seem to all be supportive, appropriate and not troll-y at all.

There's a DBT listserv? How do you get subscribed to it?

I recall a study that found histrionic PD had a lot of issues in terms of construct validity. Oh, here it is: Is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, histrionic personality disorder category a valid construct?

 

[borne_before]

I don't have much to say but:

• I listen to every board complaint and 90% are related to forensic/court stuff (usually divorce).
• Expert witnessing can be so lucrative. My dad used to do a ton of swallowing malpractice work. For instance, nursing home X gave the 90 year old with dysphagia a dry peanut butter sandwich and wound up dying from aspiration pneumonia. He'd bill like 200 an hour for record review and 800 for time taking the stand/disposition.

 

[WisNeuro]

I don't have much to say but:

• I listen to every board complaint and 90% are related to forensic/court stuff (usually divorce).
• Expert witnessing can be so lucrative. My dad used to do a ton of swallowing malpractice work. For instance, nursing home X gave the 90 year old with dysphagia a dry peanut butter sandwich and wound up dying from aspiration pneumonia. He'd bill like 200 an hour for record review and 800 for time taking the stand/disposition.

APA has published on this, vast majority are multiple/inappropriate relationship stuff. Tracks with my state. After that, a smattering of documentation issues, followed by the odd scope of practice thing. I haven't seen a purely forensic related board action in the 5+ years I've lived here and followed things.

Need to differentiate between board complaints and board actions. Anyone can file a complaint, for any reason. Most are frivolous, with no standing. Nothing to worry about there. Board actions, on the other hand, are a different story. Never seen one that seemed unreasonable here, usually after reading what the provider did, I wonder where they were trained and how they did not know what they were doing was very clearly wrong.

 

[allantois]

Who cares?

"Like you counselor, I specialize in working in legal settings. Are you implying that there is something wrong with our mutual areas of specialization?"

The only time treatment matters is if you are arguing about treatment. Then they can say you don't know how treatment "really works".

Is this really something you can say to the attorneys? I haven't seen witnesses in this case asking any questions back other than asking for clarification on questions

 

[WisNeuro]

Is this really something you can say to the attorneys? I haven't seen witnesses in this case asking any questions back other than asking for clarification on questions

Technically, you can say anything you want to an attorney. You do, however, have to deal with the consequences of that. As for what PsyDr is saying, I don't see why not, it's far less confrontational than most of what opposing counsel is usually going to try to rile you with.

 

[borne_before]

APA has published on this, vast majority are multiple/inappropriate relationship stuff. Tracks with my state. After that, a smattering of documentation issues, followed by the odd scope of practice thing. I haven't seen a purely forensic related board action in the 5+ years I've lived here and followed things.

Need to differentiate between board complaints and board actions. Anyone can file a complaint, for any reason. Most are frivolous, with no standing. Nothing to worry about there. Board actions, on the other hand, are a different story. Never seen one that seemed unreasonable here, usually after reading what the provider did, I wonder where they were trained and how they did not know what they were doing was very clearly wrong.

Oh absolutely! A lot of them wash out. I will say that listening has me very paranoid about documentation, because they will still grill the hell outta you for poor documentation.

But, you're right, most board actions tend to be multiple relationships stuff.

 

[WisNeuro]

Oh absolutely! A lot of them wash out. I will say that listening has me very paranoid about documentation, because they will still grill the hell outta you for poor documentation.

But, you're right, most board actions tend to be multiple relationships stuff.

Not a huge concern of mine. My colleagues who do forensic work will get a complaint every couple years or so. It's usually a quick phone call and the case is closed. Similar to a patient advocate complaint. Additionally, it's not a good idea for a claimant to make a complaint against an opposing expert while the case is still being litigated. If it happens, definitely let the counsel retaining you know.

 

[R. Matey]

There's a DBT listserv? How do you get subscribed to it?

I recall a study that found histrionic PD had a lot of issues in terms of construct validity. Oh, here it is: Is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, histrionic personality disorder category a valid construct?

I don't have too much of a dog in this fight: HPD could go away tomorrow and I really wouldn't care. But, idk if this study is exactly a death knell. The stats are fairly weak and I can't really find a replication though admittedly I didn't try too hard.

 

[PsyDr]

Is this really something you can say to the attorneys? I haven't seen witnesses in this case asking any questions back other than asking for clarification on questions

Until the judge says otherwise, you can respond in almost any truthful way you want. You have to know the rules and come prepared.

 

[futureapppsy2]

So, apparently, there's popular/social media backlash about the portrayal of BPD in this case: The Heard-Depp Case Illustrates the Stigma Around Borderline Personality Disorder

I mean, I agree that we shouldn't assume all people with BPD are or will be abusive, but a lot of BPD traits/symptoms can easily lead to abuse if not well-managed. (Also, I noticed that they left out the part where Curry--the psychologist retained by Depp's team--stated that BPD is linked to higher rate of both being a perpetrator of IPV and a victim of IPV, leaving out the "victim" part of the statement).

 

[deleted1100659]

So, apparently, there's popular/social media backlash about the portrayal of BPD in this case: The Heard-Depp Case Illustrates the Stigma Around Borderline Personality Disorder

I mean, I agree that we shouldn't assume all people with BPD are or will be abusive, but a lot of BPD traits/symptoms can easily lead to abuse if not well-managed. (Also, I noticed that they left out the part where Curry--the psychologist retained by Depp's team--stated that BPD is linked to higher rate of both being a perpetrator of IPV and a victim of IPV, leaving out the "victim" part of the statement).

People in their 20s have turned BPD and MH disorders into a badge of honor to wear on their instagram/twitter accounts and need stimulation through exagerrated outrage in regards to how their diagnosis is portrayed, no matter how valid it is.

At its core, BPD is emotional dysregulation to a fault and people with BPD go to great lengths to avoid being alone or often their inability to cope with situations leads to poor decision making.

From a psychiatrist perspective, medications are targeted at symptoms but ultimately they usually arent very effective for BPD. DBT groups seem to do quite well though.

 

[Cantab109]

I'm just wondering why these two forensic psychs. I know more qualified folks that could have been hired for this case.

Yes! I wondered this too.

 

[Seven_Costanza]

Sure but 20 hours a week would still equate to 500k a year gross, lol. Even 10 hours a week is quite a bit of money at that rate.

I interviewed for a position once where they charge $500/hr for individual therapy. They treat BPD and have a big celebrity clientele.

 

[Psych2014]

Anyone else following this?



I’m super impressed by the forensic psychologist testifying for this—she really explains this stuff well.

I am kind of surprised by her comment (not sure if it’s in that clip or another one) that treating clinicians don’t critically access whether or not what their clients claim is accurate or not—we don’t do that as much as pure assessors, but I do think there’s definitely a place for critical appraisal of what the client says in therapy—investigating why the client thinks they have PTSD, ASD, depression, etc.

If a psychologist or psychiatrist or any mental health professional is not critically assessing the reported information and being sure that it's Cong ruent and supported, then they're really not doing their job. And she is a good expert witness. They are usually picked for their speaking abilities and confidence.

 

[WisNeuro]

If a psychologist or psychiatrist or any mental health professional is not critically assessing the reported information and being sure that it's Cong ruent and supported, then they're really not doing their job. And she is a good expert witness. They are usually picked for their speaking abilities and confidence.

Then there are a great number of providers that are not doing their jobs. But also, the bar for assessing the validity of information differs in clinical vs. legal settings.

 

[R. Matey]

Then there are a great number of providers that are not doing their jobs. But also, the bar for assessing the validity of information differs in clinical vs. legal settings.

Care to elaborate?

 

[WisNeuro]

Care to elaborate?

The steps and procedures we would follow to diagnose PTSD in the VA, say for admission to a treatment program, are decidedly less stringent than the procedure to evaluate and diagnose PTSD for an IME context. When 6-8 figure payments are on the line, the bar gets moved a tad higher. In the former situation, a record review and CAPS is probably the "gold standard."

 

[R. Matey]

The steps and procedures we would follow to diagnose PTSD in the VA, say for admission to a treatment program, are decidedly less stringent than the procedure to evaluate and diagnose PTSD for an IME context. When 6-8 figure payments are on the line, the bar gets moved a tad higher. In the former situation, a record review and CAPS is probably the "gold standard."

Ah, ok. Thanks. I found it a bit surprising Curry used an older MMPI and was talking about two-point codes as was pointed out to me earlier. This approach seems less valid to me than other personality assessment methods, but I suppose this isn't the best example of how these cases can go.

 

[WisNeuro]

Ah, ok. Thanks. I found it a bit surprising Curry used an older MMPI and was talking about two-point codes as was pointed out to me earlier. This approach seems less valid to me than other personality assessment methods, but I suppose this isn't the best example of how these cases can go.

Some people are tied to their old instruments. There's a dude nearby here who uses the WAIS-R-NI for all of his legal cases. Among other instruments that have been updated several times.

 

[cara susanna]

I'm really curious about why Dr. Curry thought that Heard was overreporting on the CAPS-5. I personally think it's hard to determine invalidity on the CAPS-5 unless it's super obvious.

 

[R. Matey]

Some people are tied to their old instruments. There's a dude nearby here who uses the WAIS-R-NI for all of his legal cases. Among other instruments that have been updated several times.

It's just surprising to me that no attorney is like: "Hey, that instrument's outdated and...your ethics code." You can google all of that.

 

[Sanman]

If a psychologist or psychiatrist or any mental health professional is not critically assessing the reported information and being sure that it's Cong ruent and supported, then they're really not doing their job. And she is a good expert witness. They are usually picked for their speaking abilities and confidence.

Except that critical assessment is actively discouraged in many clinical settings and not what you are being paid to do. You are being paid to treat what is reported.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Then there are a great number of providers that are not doing their jobs. But also, the bar for assessing the validity of information differs in clinical vs. legal settings.

Yes on both accounts. In my experience, far too many therapists use Rogerian client-centered techniques as a justification/rationalization and go along with a lot of crap that is not beneficial to their client or even themselves. On the other hand it is not our job to investigate which is another trap that treating therapists can fall into. It's another dialectic and thus difficult to navigate especially for more logical/categorical type thinkers. Motivational Interviewing techniques helps guide one on how to challenge inconsistencies with patients reports while maintaining psychotherapist role vs forensic role. On a related note, treatment teams will also spend a lot of time trying to figure out who is lying or not, it's usually a waste of time especially since half the reports from treatment team members are inaccurate for a variety of reasons.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

I recall a study that found histrionic PD had a lot of issues in terms of construct validity. Oh, here it is: Is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition, histrionic personality disorder category a valid construct?

I am not a PD researcher but can the same be said for a bunch of the other PDs as well? My point is not that it is not not valid but that most PDs have poor validity.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I am not a PD researcher but can the same be said for a bunch of the other PDs as well? My point is not that it is not not valid but that most PDs have poor validity.

Did you just use a triple negative? If you threw in invalid instead of valid, that would be like a grand slam.

All kidding aside, completely agree with the point and as a clinician, the utility of diagnostic labels in general is pretty limited and PDs are pretty much the worst of the bunch. I can think of like 5 different types of Borderline PD right off the top of my head.

 

[allantois]

I feel like psychological testimony didn’t add very much to the case. The lady probably does suffer from PTSD and does not meet criteria for any PD, however, she does strike me as more histrionic than borderline

One of the therapists she was seeing did not use diagnoses at all in treatment records..

 

[smalltownpsych]

I feel like psychological testimony didn’t add very much to the case. The lady probably does suffer from PTSD and does not meet criteria for any PD, however, she does strike me as more histrionic than borderline

One of the therapists she was seeing did not use diagnoses at all in treatment records..

I agree about the expert testimony being of questionable usefulness and most of my clients who meet criteria for BPD have trauma and often meet criteria for PTSD. My experience has been pretty consistent with the 80% of BPD having childhood trauma. As far as the histrionic vs borderline or even antisocial, they all just seem to be related to the interpersonal style. Some people tend to be more anxious, some more aggressive, and some more needy for attention. Mix in some trauma and/or genetic biological predisposition and these traits are exaggerated and we call it a PD.

 

[WisNeuro]

I agree about the expert testimony being of questionable usefulness and most of my clients who meet criteria for BPD have trauma and often meet criteria for PTSD. My experience has been pretty consistent with the 80% of BPD having childhood trauma. As far as the histrionic vs borderline or even antisocial, they all just seem to be related to the interpersonal style. Some people tend to be more anxious, some more aggressive, and some more needy for attention. Mix in some trauma and/or genetic biological predisposition and these traits are exaggerated and we call it a PD.

The goal of expert testimony is not to persuade other experts in mental health, it is to persuade judge/jury. And, if public reaction is anything close to how it was perceived by the trier of fact in this trial, it's was worth every penny charged.

 

[Sanman]

One of the therapists she was seeing did not use diagnoses at all in treatment records..

Which is why you pay cash for treatment.