Just a few basic pointers in looking for a research job

[JelloBrain]

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I thought I will post some pointers on how to look for a research position successfully as there are a couple of threads on what are the job prospects for MDs with no residency. I am basing this only on my experience so it is an n of 1 only. I haven't searched to see if there have been previous posts on this topic. Any other successful MDs to postdocs please feel free to add your experiences and thoughts as well.

Anyways, the main questions you have to ask yourself before embarking on a research position hunting mision are:
1.Why do you want to do research?
2.In what specialty? Don't think broadly surgery or medicine, but what sub-specialty if any?
3.In what capacity? MDs should be working as a postdoc. ideally (it is equal to SRA 3). Are you willing to work as SRA2-which is a tech?
4.Basic science or Clinical research?
5.What skills set do you possess-research related, surgical skills, and transferable skills?
6.Do you want to wait to apply for posted jobs or cold call people?

Once you truthfully answer all these questions to yourself, then you should target faculty in universities that conduct research of interest to you. If location is not an issue for you, then look all over the country. Email those whose research interests you using a professional email address (gmail works well) stating why you like what they are doing, how you can contribute and be an asset to their team and what time frame are you looking for to be with that team. Also important is how research fits into your professional life goals in the present and future-"I want to get into a US residency" is not good enough! Do not email every person in every specialty-it is a small world, people talk. You might not know how to conduct research, but if you are genuinely interested in a particular aspect of research, people will be happy to give you a chance.

If you want to apply to posted jobs then check this website weekly: http://sciencecareers.sciencemag.org/

Another source for posted jobs is university employment boards-You may/may not be able to find out who the Principal Investigator is in such cases unless you do a bit of detective work. As an example, if you find a job posting saying they are looking for someone to study some aspect of Parkinson's, and want to apply to it, then before doing so through the university careers center, look through the faculty in the dept. of Neurology at that institute and check their research interests. The one who you think might be the most likely PI for the job you saw should then receive your email stating that you are interested in the said job and why, etc., and you presume it will be with him/her, send a copy of your CV, and request that if it is not that person, could they kindly forward it to the correct person. That usually gets a response, and then you can apply through the university website too.

And please look up their work on Pubmed before you meet/have a telephone talk with them. You have to have a good knowledge of the details of your prospective research mentor's work.

And never ever say: "I will do any job, I'll move anywhere". That reeks of desperation, and is not a good thing. Think about whether you will date someone desperate-apply the same principles broadly. Ask for what you are worth (not salary wise, but status wise). For this you need to know your worth and be confident of your skills. I haven't addressed any visa issues here as I believe that if you are good, your prospective employer will get you a H1 B or J1 sponsorship.

I hope this will help start searches for some of you. As always I am happy to hear from anyone and learn from their experiences.

2 important things to NOT do:

1. Do not mention your ECFMG certification when applying for a postdoc. or other research position. I am not asking you to "hide" any info., basically it is irrelevant to the research position. If anything, it might be deemed detrimental as prospective PIs might think that you are not genuinely interested in research, you just want to do something to earn some money while awaiting entrance into a residency program.
2. Please use proper communication techniques-kill the text speak already! Seriously! I wouldn't even look twice at emails or CVs with glaringly ridiculous language; typos I can live with. In this day and age when you have instant access to check your spelling and grammar, there is no excuse for bad english. A lot of research work is based on communication-collaborating emails, protocols, grant writing, manuscript writing, etc., so shape up.

 

[USMLE11]

Dear
I want an advice, i want to apply to internal medicine residency, as the competition is so high for me as IMG with humbled USMLE scores, i am thinking to do some academic study. i am puzzled between MPH and PhD bioscience in an interesting medical topics like cancer biology or CVS metabolic Dx....etc, in fact, which one is more close or preferable for internal medicine guys?

thanx for any reply

 

[gutonc]

Dear
I want an advice, i want to apply to internal medicine residency, as the competition is so high for me as IMG with humbled USMLE scores, i am thinking to do some academic study. i am puzzled between MPH and PhD bioscience in an interesting medical topics like cancer biology or CVS metabolic Dx....etc, in fact, which one is more close or preferable for internal medicine guys?

thanx for any reply

I can't tell if this is a joke or serious. If it's a joke, well played sir. If it's serious...I hate Google for leading you here.

 

[JelloBrain]

I can't tell if this is a joke or serious. If it's a joke, well played sir. If it's serious...I hate Google for leading you here.

Why do you think this is either? If you think I have posted something wrong/misleading in my post based on my research experience, please let me know what's wrong or inappropriate. I am always open to learning from new perspectives.

Most people who have read this post usually approach me directly for advice, and I offer them some pointers based on their unique situation and my experience. This is the first time someone posted a reply to my post asking for advice, and you seem to think it's a joke, or if it isn't, then you are sorry they ended up at my post.

I would really like to know what's so bad about this post so I can refrain from posting future helpful (IMO) information for IMGs. Not everybody is very good at finding things out for themselves, some like a little helping hand from time to time.

 

[J-Rad]

Why do you think this is either?...

Erm, I think he's responding to the other post. You know, the one that's in the quote box😉

Your post was fine. But USMLE 11's...unless he was trying to provide an object lesson for how to not use proper communication techniques (or that was the joke)-not so much.

 

[gutonc]

Why do you think this is either? If you think I have posted something wrong/misleading in my post based on my research experience, please let me know what's wrong or inappropriate. I am always open to learning from new perspectives.

You need to chill. Clearly I was talking about the post I actually quoted. The one that was hilarious. Yours was pretty good.

 

[USMLE11]

I can't tell if this is a joke or serious. If it's a joke, well played sir. If it's serious...I hate Google for leading you here.

Instead of making fun on others, try to write something helpful and more respectable...

 

[gutonc]

Instead of making fun on others, try to write something helpful and more respectable...

Question answered.

 

[J-Rad]

Question answered.

And hilarity has ensued!

 

[gutonc]

And hilarity has ensued!

I'm starting to feel bad. The OP was pretty good and this is going downhill fast.

 

[USMLE11]

Question answered.

if some ask u for an advice or help, regardless how silly that question, what would be your reply?
i am asking for something specific, if an MD like me could not make it to get a spot in a residency program, do you think that a graduate degree in MPH, Bioscience or clinical and translational programs might help in getting into residency program especially IM? That's it !!

 

[J-Rad]

I'm starting to feel bad. The OP was pretty good and this is going downhill fast.

Agreed...and with that...

if some ask u for an advice or help, regardless how silly that question, what would be your reply?
i am asking for something specific, if an MD like me could not make it to get a spot in a residency program, do you think that a graduate degree in MPH, Bioscience or clinical and translational programs might help in getting into residency program especially IM? That's it !!

If you read the (well written and informative) OP, you'll note the comment at the end about using proper communication. While it targeted the use of internet vernacular in what is supposed to be professional communication, it is just as valid to point out that not using proper grammar or syntax for any other reason (e.g. limited English proficiency) will not help anyone's cause, including yours. Furthermore, your question was muddled and more difficult to comprehend than it should have been. I bolded the above because, despite the use of a comma instead of a colon, your question was written much more clearly than anything else you wrote-including the paragraph that immediately precedes it-so you at least have the capability to communicate clearly on occasions. Work on this. Seriously.
As to your question: I will only hazard a guess (because I don't fancy myself an expert) that if you are a foreign graduate with truly poor board scores and limited English proficiency, but able to obtain a graduate degree or do research, the latter will do little to overcome the former in getting a residency. Rather, it may just help you proceed on to a research career. Now if your CV and stats before the degree/research would have put you at the low end of the applicant pool (vs. the long-to-no shot end of the spectrum) for non-competitive programs, then your application might be bolstered. Then again, taking an applicant who not only had poor stats from a foreign school, but who is now also a few more years removed from said school probably wouldn't look any more attractive to a program. Just my two cents.

 

[gutonc]

Nobody cares about an MPH and doing one will not do anything to get you into a residency. A PhD may help but, as J-Rad points out, it may not and might only get you into a research career (which is fine but is not medicine).

 

[JelloBrain]

You need to chill. Clearly I was talking about the post I actually quoted. The one that was hilarious. Yours was pretty good.

Thanks, I really should learn to chill in general, 🙂.

J-Rad-Looks like USMLE11 is not used to English as his/hers first language. I can understand and sympathize with communication skills of such people, but I get really annoyed with those who are quite fluent in English, but use text-speak/internet vernacular to ask professional questions. Sadly my own countrymen are most guilty of this.

USMLE11-My advice would be to definitely not do an MPH, it's a lot of money to spend for not a lot of returns. A PhD in USA is 6 years in duration on average, so you have to think if the time investment is worth it for you. If you are already in the US, the best thing to do might be to target your local academic hospital/s to see what research is being conducted in the IM department, if any. Then email the PIs to express interest and see what positions might be available. If you are looking into research jobs from outside of the USA, target different academic departments across the USA where research of your interest is being carried out. Email PIs with your CV, and let them know when you will be visiting the US-this makes it more worthwhile for them to communicate with you and offer you interviews and potential jobs.

And please don't do research as just a means to get you into residency-even if that's your final goal, do it in a field that interests you personally, whether it be cancer biology or CVS metabolic disease or any other category. That way you will have the enthusiasm to carry out (sometimes mundane) research, and the drive to carry on if your research doesn't work the first time.

Good luck in your endeavors.

 

[USMLE11]

Thankx alot for all the above suggestion.
I am a us permanent resident, and currently hovering around programs know as clinical and translational research program that are supported by NIH. And I hope to get into one of them.
But the question is: if someone is in the middle of his PhD or postdoctoral fellow program and has been accepted into IM residency at the same medical school; is it possible or acceptable to complete both of them simultaneously?

 

[gutonc]

Thankx alot for all the above suggestion.
I am a us permanent resident, and currently hovering around programs know as clinical and translational research program that are supported by NIH. And I hope to get into one of them.
But the question is: if someone is in the middle of his PhD or postdoctoral fellow program and has been accepted into IM residency at the same medical school; is it possible or acceptable to complete both of them simultaneously?

It is neither possible nor acceptable. You need to be "all in" in whichever of those programs you're in. FWIW, I worked about the same number of hours weekly as a PhD student as I did as an IM intern (the difference being that I got to choose the hours and work in grad school). There are only 168 hours in a week...you can't work 160 of them.

Also, unless you score a first author Science/Nature/Cell paper in the first couple of years of research, you're not going to be any stronger of an applicant to residency than before you started. If you start a PhD program expect to finish it (5-7 years later) before you start residency. There's nothing legally preventing you from taking a residency spot if it's offered to you but your research advisor is unlikely to write you a glowing LOR for residency (which you'll need) if you're going to bail on your work if you Match.

If all you want is something to do in the US for a year or two, work as a tech. If you want to really do research, go ahead and do a PhD.

 

[USMLE11]

It is neither possible nor acceptable. You need to be "all in" in whichever of those programs you're in. FWIW, I worked about the same number of hours weekly as a PhD student as I did as an IM intern (the difference being that I got to choose the hours and work in grad school). There are only 168 hours in a week...you can't work 160 of them.

Also, unless you score a first author Science/Nature/Cell paper in the first couple of years of research, you're not going to be any stronger of an applicant to residency than before you started. If you start a PhD program expect to finish it (5-7 years later) before you start residency. There's nothing legally preventing you from taking a residency spot if it's offered to you but your research advisor is unlikely to write you a glowing LOR for residency (which you'll need) if you're going to bail on your work if you Match.

If all you want is something to do in the US for a year or two, work as a tech. If you want to really do research, go ahead and do a PhD.

Thanks a lot
In fact, I prefer to plunge deep into the PhD study, but how can I ameliorate the effect of (more than 5 years since graduation) on my future residency application? If I continue doing some clinical externship or observe ship during my academic study; would that be helpful to overcome this clinical experience gap?

 

[turquoiseblue]

I was wondering how easy is it for an MD to find a postdoc job. usually i've seen them available for mostly PhD's. I have had a difficult time finding a postdoc at all. is it because I graduated from a foreign medical school? i've emailed so many pi's before and all i came up with was $500/month of pay-less than minimal wage. of course i first authored 3 papers with that, but come on i need enough to pay the rent and live on. i even tried to get a promotion, but no such luck. also what specialties are in most need of postdocs, which would be easiest for an MD in my situation to get? what universities are in most need for postdocs and would easily hire an MD? what time of year is best to apply for a postdoc, because it seems seasonal to me where most spots are closed by a certain point.

 

[JelloBrain]

Turquoiseblue-As you haven't finished a residency, you might not be able to get a postdoc job, but might get an SRA-2 level job where there is a vacancy. It is a tech job, but they are more protected than postdoc jobs and offer good pay (usually $33-35k) and benefits. Where you finished your medical school has no bearing on a research job. Most postdocs I know, MDs and/or PhDs, are foreigners on H1-B or J1 visa at most big-name places.

The job-hunt method I suggest is the same-check the academic centers in your local area where research that is of interest to you is carried out, target those PIs, tell them why you would like to work with them, ask for a face-to-face meeting, and take it from there. If you are not limited by geography, cast your net wider.

Postdoc hiring has nothing to do with the need of universities or specialties. If a PI has a grant that has money for an SRA-2 or a postdoc, and if they select you for the project, then the university will just process your paperwork for employment, that's all. You have to contact individual PIs whose research you like to see who has what funding available for how long-most of these jobs are either word of mouth or obtained via cold calling.

Again, all this is based on my personal experience, so an n of 1. If you want to PM me with your geographical target area and broad research interests, I can try and help you get started on the appropriate people to target.

 

[winner123]

Here is some potion for those who a nasty disease of criticising others' english usage rather than helping them:

Get yurself correct and select a proper dialect
I think u belong to some primitive sect coz' u always deflect
Attention away from the real question which is an evil fashion
R u a psycho coz u show signs both of delusion and hallucination!

 

[dragonfly99]

I actually agree w/J-rad's advice.
Also,the original advice about how to get a research position was on-target.
For the person who is wanting to get into residency, I would discourage doing the MPH. I don't think it will help you. As a FMG with low board scores and some problems with English, I think he/she will have a harder time getting in to residency as the years go by. I don't think taking 6 or 7 years to get a PhD will help the residency application, then improving his/her English and maybe doing some research (even at technician salary, etc.) while perhaps doing some clinical observership for the next year or so would be more helpful, in my opinion. Also, I recommend trying to work for someone who is either an MD or MD/PhD, and who seems interested in you as a person. You need someone who WANTS to help further your career,not who just wants to use you to get work done. That can be hard to figure out when you are interviewing for jobs, however.

In my opinion, a PhD can be a good path for some people to a career...not usually a path to residency, though, in my opinion. A lot of foreign medical grads just don't get into residency in the US, especially if the USMLE scores are lower and the person needs a visa.

 

[JelloBrain]

Dragonfly99's recommendation to work for an MD and/or MD/PhD is spot-on.

My initial fellowship was under a PhD, and the work was very clinical/translational-I had no "mentorship", had to use my previous surgical training on my large animals for my project to work successfully. The good thing was I was allowed to be the boss of how to run the project, the bad thing was (some) other collaborators (occasionally) refused to deal with me directly as I was only the Postdoc, and they would only deal with the PI-power play became an issue, and my PI didn't want to deal with it-lot of wasted time and resources, and heartache. My friend, who was at the same institute, was a PhD working for an MD-they had the opposite problems. Now I work for an MD/PhD and my friend moved to a PhD PI, and we both are happy-good mentorship, and things get done without any bureaucracy.

Though my ex-PI is an adjunct faculty in my specialty, I believe that my current PI's LOR would carry more weight during residency application time, though he is in an affiliated specialty.

So, for those wanting to use their research career as a stepping stone for residency, the best person to work for is an MD/PhD followed by MD followed by PhD. This is especially true for surgical specialties. Unless of course the PhD is a Nobel Prize winner or some such big shot.

Again, everything here is based on my personal experience, so an n of 1.

 

[ROBINHO]

Jello Brain this is a wonderful thread. Thanks for sharing.
And I ditto all that u said. I am a recent graduate(nov 2009) and decided to go into research for some money(for residency application) and also really wanted to pubish since I am interested in an academic career( I guess once I move up the clinical ladder I publish less-especially during IM residency).am now a Research fellow(somewhere).

It isnt easy to get a Research position. I had to email a lot of PIs and academic centers.That was in the beginning of the year, when I look back I just laugh, I dont really know what I was doing. Observations
1. requiring a visa makes it even more difficult
2. One really need to put up something concrete-Cover, letter,research interests etc. one mistake pple make is to just email same CV and cover letter to every researcher out there irrespective of the field.They receive these emails from desperate foreign docs wanting a transition to residency everyday. They know that most foreigners dont really care about their research hence they ignore the emails. They want somebody interested.To be effective...I think one shd identify what one is interested in and then contact everybody related to the field

3. It requires a certain bit of luck, maybe one has to apply very broadly. after a month of sending out lots of trash mails...I got one single response(lUCKY ME). went for an interview and the reality hit me. With zero experience, nobody is going to give u a contract. I agreed to be a volunteer and busted my azz off for 2 months no pay...eating once a day becos I couldnt afford multiple meals plus transportation and limited cash in this xtry. Hint: those who really want research positions sometimes u gotta start somewhere. And being a Volunteer isnt out of this world

 

[JelloBrain]

Thanks Robinho. Glad that you've shared your perspective as well. Different experiences help future people get a better idea of how things can be. I was lucky that way as I had a lot of offers and could choose where I wanted to be, and never had to work as a volunteer.

The mistake that I made was not considering financial implications thoroughly. When I came from UK to USA to attend my interviews, everything felt very inexpensive-I was earning in GBP and spending in USD, the latter had started falling, so I had an exchange rate of nearly 2:1. Once I moved to USA, in one of the most expensive cities ever, the reality hit me-my take home pay was not even in 4 figures per paycheck. I still don't own a car! If I had factored in these matters, I might have just taken up one of the postdoc offers I had in the smaller university towns. But then I would not have met one of the loves of my life (see my avatar).

So yes, luck plays a huge factor in landing a good research job, just like any other gig. There are so many talented singers/actors out there, but the ones who make it are those who were in the right place at the right time and were discovered by the right people.

Luck we cannot influence. What we can work with is ourselves and our preparedness for being discovered any time. I always advice people who PM me saying they will do anything, and they just want a research job, that it is a really bad attitude to have and reeks of desperation. We have criteria for who we will date/marry, how can we not have criteria for a job? Who wants to date/hire desperate people?

Like you said, and I have mentioned it while starting my thread, we have to sincerely identify our interest/s, and how working with a particular group or PI would be a mutually beneficial process. Then that message has to be clearly conveyed to the said PI/group such that it at least piques their interest in you enough to get a response. That's where tailoring your CV comes in handy.

When you save a copy of the CV you sent to a particular job, save it with the name of the job you applied for with the date. Come interview time, you will know which cover letter-CV combo you sent out to that particular job. For example, if I applied for a neuro research job in Miami, I'll save my documents as JB-CV-NeuroMiami-1Nov2010, etc. Also try to save and send your CVs and cover letters in PDF format, this prevents PC-Mac distortion of documents and looks more professional. For those without Microsoft Office and/or Acrobat, you can create and convert word documents into PDF using Open Office-it's free- http://www.openoffice.org/

I think one of the biggest worry that PIs might have is that you might not come over to USA for an interview at your expense-If you are able to do so, you should say so in your cover letter-gives them a reason to invest some time in responding to you, and build up their enthusiasm to meet/hire you. It's a big let down for PIs to get excited about someone, only to see that the person either won't be able to even come for an interview/tour of the place, and/or is an awful communicator, and/or cannot give any decent time commitment to any research project. Remember most research projects take a minimum of two years to come to fruition. No one wants to waste precious time on a potential unhireable person.

For the interview, again preparedness is the key. You have to know the bio of your PI and other interviewers-their work, especially their most recent grants/publications, their research and clinical interests, even their hobbies if you can get that info. People like to be flattered about their work. You also have to be very clear about what you bring to the table and how you envision your fit in their team. But if you just talk the talk, but cannot walk the walk, that won't remain hidden for long.

Trust me, for the right candidate, experience will be provided, either on the job or as a short term volunteer like in Robinho's case. Let your prospective PI know that you are willing to volunteer for a while to prove yourself. Visa will be obtained by your employer if you fit the bill.

To summarize:

1. Do your homework thoroughly before you start sending out emails to people.
2. Google is your friend-Use it to your advantage.
3. Know your worth, and make it work for you with confidence.
4. Offer a time commitment, as well as a "try before you buy" option.
5. Remain financially savvy, and don't ruin yourself.
6. Always keep all communication professional.

My particular pet peeve is people who send emails that look like they were drafted by a linguistically challenged teenager with 2 thumbs and a not very smart phone! I press "delete forever" to such emails without opening them. I might be just a postdoc, but we get a lot of say in who gets hired from a new tech to a new colleague, and how they perform once hired. So please heed my advice.

Mantras-Genuine interest, Confidence, Enthusiasm.