just another kypho question

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

TIVAndy

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2011
Messages
457
Reaction score
212
20230217_170627.jpg
20230217_170631.jpg


T12 compression fracture work related injury
initial compression 1 year ago, presented to me 3 months ago with worsening pain.
T12 compression worsening (acute on chronic). radiologist initially called chronic compression but i thought i saw edema on STIR (right side pic). spoke to another radiologist who agrees with subacute edema.

to kypho or not is the question. pain still 8/10. anterior portion almost vertebra plana, and protruding back with mild-mod stenosis.

spine jack perhaps? any thoughts appreciated.

Members don't see this ad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Members don't see this ad :)
How're the more lateral cuts? Is there space for a cannula? Spine Jack is fine but you have to access the body safely with any system.
 
How do you guys feels about doing a kypho on a VCF with positive but minimal retropulsion but has severe stenosis at that level anyway? Acute on STIR, 3 weeks old. Arguably the kypho could help the stenosis, but there isn't much margin for error.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
How do you guys feels about doing a kypho on a VCF with positive but minimal retropulsion but has severe stenosis at that level anyway? Acute on STIR, 3 weeks old. Arguably the kypho could help the stenosis, but there isn't much margin for error.

I have a patient with this exact situation. I’m proceeding with kypho
 
How do you guys feels about doing a kypho on a VCF with positive but minimal retropulsion but has severe stenosis at that level anyway? Acute on STIR, 3 weeks old. Arguably the kypho could help the stenosis, but there isn't much margin for error.
I’ve done kypho for this situation before. Didnt really get much frx reduction. Pt did well, thanked the man upstairs there was no cement in the canal, which obviously could push the stenosis “over the edge”

Anybody doing a lot of spine Jack for this situation? Any followup MRI data in regards to reduced retropulsion/stenosis?
 
How're the more lateral cuts? Is there space for a cannula? Spine Jack is fine but you have to access the body safely with any system.
20230218_232724.jpg
20230218_232733.jpg
20230218_232736.jpg
20230218_232739.jpg
20230218_232743.jpg
20230218_232747.jpg
20230218_232750.jpg
20230218_232752.jpg


here's saggital from pedicle to pedicle. access to body possible. the midline is more compressed than lateral sides
 
I would not touch this. I cannot see any way into bone without hitting an endplate. The retropulsion is not an issue. The lack of a place for the needle/balloon/cement is the issue. Hard pass.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Members don't see this ad :)
@lobelsteve what are your thoughts on kypho at the level of severe stenosis? Pearls and experience appreciated.
 
@lobelsteve what are your thoughts on kypho at the level of severe stenosis? Pearls and experience appreciated.
If I see CSF, then green light. VA does not cause retropulsion. Inject cement slowly and under live fluoro to make sure nothing taking up space in the canal.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Saw that on LinkedIn this morning. Glad he got roasted
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
These spine surgeons love to pile on at once when they see pain docs post something. Most of the time what’s posted is foolish and they do deserve to be criticized.

Let’s assume this young otherwise healthy patient with a traumatic VCF did try conservative measures for a few months including bracing, meds, etc and she still had significant pain.

What’s the harm in kypho? Isn’t it a risk benefit discussion at the end of the day?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
These spine surgeons love to pile on at once when they see pain docs post something. Most of the time what’s posted is foolish and they do deserve to be criticized.

Let’s assume this young otherwise healthy patient with a traumatic VCF did try conservative measures for a few months including bracing, meds, etc and she still had significant pain.

What’s the harm in kypho? Isn’t it a risk benefit discussion at the end of the day?

Harm? It’s basically an unnecessary partial fusion in a 32 yr old.

Better to try RFA vs intracept over kypho in this scenario.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Harm? It’s basically an unnecessary partial fusion in a 32 yr old.

Better to try RFA vs intracept over kypho in this scenario.
A kypho isn't a fusion. The fear of this procedure is overblown and while we should all be able to agree this case may be overutilization of this therapy, I don't think it's necessarily wrong without understanding the circumstances.

Can't BVNA above L3 or below S1 according to the CPT.
Although MBBs/RFAs have weak data for post-VCF pain, they really don't make sense for anterior element pain.
You're just offering less reasonable placebos that seem lower risk/safer.

I'm okay doing nothing, but if that's not working, I'm okay doing more.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Harm? It’s basically an unnecessary partial fusion in a 32 yr old.

Better to try RFA vs intracept over kypho in this scenario.
@bedrock im not trying to be argumentative just trying to learn more - could you pls explain what you meant by a kypho being a partial fusion
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
These spine surgeons love to pile on at once when they see pain docs post something. Most of the time what’s posted is foolish and they do deserve to be criticized.

Let’s assume this young otherwise healthy patient with a traumatic VCF did try conservative measures for a few months including bracing, meds, etc and she still had significant pain.

What’s the harm in kypho? Isn’t it a risk benefit discussion at the end of the day?
Not indicated for traumatic fractures.
Risks>benefits.

Your scenario: after a few months, even OP Fx not indicated.
MBB Dx.
ESI not indicated.

All pain is not solved at the end of a needle.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I’ve done kypho for this situation before. Didnt really get much frx reduction. Pt did well, thanked the man upstairs there was no cement in the canal, which obviously could push the stenosis “over the edge”

Anybody doing a lot of spine Jack for this situation? Any followup MRI data in regards to reduced retropulsion/stenosis?
Sent a pt last year to the surgeon for kypho due to significant retropulsion on MRI and pt ended up getting spine jack. This person got a new fracture on recent MRI. The retropulsion at the spinejack level was significantly worse. When I brought it up to the rep during the case, she made it seem like this was something they were seeing and following closely.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Sent a pt last year to the surgeon for kypho due to significant retropulsion on MRI and pt ended up getting spine jack. This person got a new fracture on recent MRI. The retropulsion at the spinejack level was significantly worse. When I brought it up to the rep during the case, she made it seem like this was something they were seeing and following closely.
You mean they're seeing re-fx at SpineJack'd level? That would be interesting
 
These spine surgeons love to pile on at once when they see pain docs post something. Most of the time what’s posted is foolish and they do deserve to be criticized.

Let’s assume this young otherwise healthy patient with a traumatic VCF did try conservative measures for a few months including bracing, meds, etc and she still had significant pain.

What’s the harm in kypho? Isn’t it a risk benefit discussion at the end of the day?
*vertebro
 
you guys also do augmentation for cancer met - compression fracture? not sure of the data - radiation vs augmentation or both.
i've heard of osteocool also but haven't seen anyone do it
 
you guys also do augmentation for cancer met - compression fracture? not sure of the data - radiation vs augmentation or both.
i've heard of osteocool also but haven't seen anyone do it
I have augmented for multiple myeloma related fractures with good results
 

And in case it has been taken down:

View attachment 366432View attachment 366433View attachment 366434View attachment 366435View attachment 366436View attachment 366437

These guys will complain loudly about Kypho and then aggressively TLIF/ALIF/PLIF the 36 yo with mild stenosis and degenerative changes (but good insurance).

Glass houses...stones...etc.

No one has totally clean hands in this business
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
These guys will complain loudly about Kypho and then aggressively TLIF/ALIF/PLIF the 36 yo with mild stenosis and degenerative changes (but good insurance).

Glass houses...stones...etc.

No one has totally clean hands in this business
No. Clearly non indicated procedure. Same as when all these disciples of Doug do an epidural for analgesia at time of kypho.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
No. Clearly non indicated procedure. Same as when all these disciples of Doug do an epidural for analgesia at time of kypho.

I never said I agreed with the procedure. My comment was about the spine surgeons dog piling on
 
What’s the downside to doing a kypho on a traumatic fracture in a young patient assuming they failed conservative measures? (Besides just the risk of the procedure itself)

Is there evidence to suggest that it wouldn’t help?
 
What’s the downside to doing a kypho on a traumatic fracture in a young patient assuming they failed conservative measures? (Besides just the risk of the procedure itself)

Is there evidence to suggest that it wouldn’t help?
There is poor quality evidence that it may help. Case series. Case reports. Kallmes was only able to enroll 15 of 842 screened for his study. Thanks to lobbying by IR and NS, coverage reinstatement for certain traumatic fx has been implemented.
 
There’s no one else here ever done a kyphoplasty on a younger patient?

I’ll admit that I did one in a 38 year old lady who was in a car wreck. She had RA and had taken prednisone off and on for a long time, didn’t have osteoporosis from it though. She had kids and was a single mom, was having a hard time making it through work because her back hurt so bad. I was upfront with her and told her that the textbook answer here was to just let it heal on its own. She really did give it a good try for a week and a half but social factors came in to play and she was really worried about making ends meet and asked if kyphoplasty would give her a chance to feel better faster. The answer was legitimately “yes, it could” so I told her I would try to get insurance approval and if they approve we could do it. They approved it, I did it, she felt better and went back to work. I think most of us would agree I didn’t do anything wrong although I did deviate from standard treatment in a young patient. Sometimes I think there are cases that make sense to not live by such hard and fast rules of the “gold standard“. Seems to me that’s what being a doctor is all about, making those decisions when it is the right thing.

I wouldn’t post it on social media though, we all can agree that would be a dumb thing to do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
There is poor quality evidence that it may help. Case series. Case reports. Kallmes was only able to enroll 15 of 842 screened for his study. Thanks to lobbying by IR and NS, coverage reinstatement for certain traumatic fx has been implemented.

Wasn’t that the study where patients were asked if they wanted to have this treatment they would fix their back pain or they could enroll in a study that they might get their back pain fixed or they might get in the placebo group? If that’s the case, a lot of patients may not have wanted to enroll because their back hurt so bad they didn’t wanna take a chance on being in the placebo group so they didn’t enter the study. Maybe I’m mixing them up though
 
from a scientific perspective why wouldn’t it make sense?

I get that it is not fda indicated to a kypho for a traumatic fracture.

Is it because the bone health is good? Unlikely to deteriorate in future? Will likely not lead to functional limitations even with conservative care?

Again looking at the scientific angle
 
We cast simple appendicular fractures not plate them. Same principle

I commend @gdub25 for treating his patients individual circumstance though.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
What’s the downside to doing a kypho on a traumatic fracture in a young patient assuming they failed conservative measures? (Besides just the risk of the procedure itself)

Is there evidence to suggest that it wouldn’t help?
The downside is they will have an increased fracture risk above and below the augmented segment the rest of their lives. May not be a big deal when they’re young but once their bone starts to weaken they’ll have an increased risk
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Stryker Cortoss is supposedly better for young bone. Much more flexible according to Stryker instructors. But it is a pain to use. Gums up the bone fillers immediately.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Top