Just how much better are your chances if you apply URM? Example...

[RogueUnicorn]

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It appears that ~45% of each ethnicity is accepted. ~45% of all applicants are accepted. It seems like ~45 is the magic number to be "fair" to each ethnicity.

yea i'm sure adcoms sit down and count to make sure 45% is applied across the board.

 

[sustentacular]

So there's a few things I have to say on this topic.

There is a spot on the AMCAS application to state your "Racial Self-Description" and your "Ethnic Self-Description" and a spot to state if you consider yourself to have had a disadvantaged upbringing and if you answer yes you have to write an essay about your circumstances. I saw this as almost akin to the "tell us about any discrepancies in your academic career" essays. A chance to explain why you haven't done as well as you'd have liked to or why the fact you did do well is that much more impressive.

Medical schools have been encouraged to accept students from certain minority populations to increase the overall number of minority physicians to better reflect their numbers in the general population. The "advantage" for applicants from these minority groups is that the applicant pool is smaller.

As for the griping that schools should only take the "best applicants," which on this board seems to only be stipulated by mcat score and gpa, I will quote "Outliers" by Malcom Gladwell (those of you who have not read it should)

"Knowledge of a boy's IQ is a of little help if you are faced with a forum full of clever boys."
Let me give you an example of the threshold effect in action. The University of Michigan law school, like many elite US educational institutions, uses a policy of affirmative action when it comes to applicants from disadvantaged backgrounds. Around 10 percent of the students Michigan enrolls each fall are members of racial minorities, and if the law school did not significantly relax its entry requirements for those students - admitting them with lower undergraduate grades and lower standardized-test scores than everyone else - it estimates that percentage would be less than 3 percent. Furthermore, if we compare the grades that the minority and nonminority students get in law school, we see that the white students do better. That's not surprising: if one group has higher undergraduate grades and test scores than the other, it's almost certainly going to have higher grades in law school as well. This is one reason that affirmative action programs are so controversial. In fact, an attack on the University of Michigan's affirmative action program recently went all the way to the US Supreme Court. For many people it is troubling that an elite educational institution lets in students who are less qualified than their peers.
A few years ago, however, the University of Michigan decided to look closely at how the law school's minority students had fared after they graduated. How much money did they make? How far up in the profession did they go? How satisfied were they with their careers? What kind of social and community contributions did they make? What kind of honors had they won? They looked at everything that could conceivably be an indication of real-world success. And what they found surprised them.
"We knew that our minority students, a lot of them, were doing well," says Richard Lempert, one of the authors of the Michigan study. "I think our expectation was that we would find a half- or two-thirds-full glass, that they had not done as well as the white students but nonetheless a lot were quite successful. But we were completely surprised. We found that they were doing every bit as well. There was no place we saw any serious discrepancy."
What Lempert is saying is that by the only measure that a law school really ought to care about - how well its graduates do in the real world - minority students aren't less qualified. They're just as successful as white students. And why? Because even though the academic credentials of minority students at Michigan aren't as good as those of white students, the quality of students at the law school is high enough that they're still above the threshold. They are smart enough. Knowledge of a law student's test scores are of little help if you are faced with a classroom of clever law students.

 

[ILikeDrugs]

yea i'm sure adcoms sit down and count to make sure 45% is applied across the board.

If they want their incoming class to have a certain percentage of urm why wouldn't they?

 

[Dr Lyss]

Two things:

1) Why is it so hard to admit that yes, URM's get an advantage in admissions??? Whether that is a fair or unfair advantage, I don't know. But can URMs please just admit that all things being equal, a URM will get a slight edge. Maybe their life experiences are better - but then again, maybe they're not. (Don't tell me that every URM out there faced huge social/economic/whatever obstacles. And don't tell me that Asians don't face racism.)

Regardless of what the rest of the application looks like, being a URM will be a point in one's favor. Please, just acknowledge that.

2) This URM advantage used to bother me, but I gotta say...it's not like there are tons of URMs in every class. I was surprised to see that most med school classes have 10-20 ish. It's not like they're stealing away all the seats.

Though, it still kind of bothers me that URMs have a much better shot at huge scholarships, even if they're not economically disadvantaged.

That's actually a large number. Most schools (excluding the HBCUs) have much less.

 

[mipp0]

The purpose of your post is unclear, other than you seem to be agitated about something. I was addressing the value judgment about URM acceptance decisions, yet you bring up a completely different case. First of all, try to understand that all things are almost never equal, as you tend to assume. Second, as a general trend, everyone already knows that URMs do generally have lower admission stats. We don't need to read a post about this - AMCAS statistics suffice. So that's superfluous. Third, your experience is N=1. Racism in one facility does not translate into racism in another facility or the medical field overall. Parochial view here. Finally, when you are trying to correct someone, make sure you are absolutely correct. You have misinterpreted the definition of "Caucasian," perhaps because in Europe that term is not as "politically" popular now. For our purposes, we are in United States. That term is not incorrect. Additionally, the term "Caucasian" is much more accurate than your term "European American." By using that term, you just excluded a large number of white people, including myself. And the only way you can know why the term "Caucasian" is more correct is if you know history. Politics has nothing to do with it. In fact, it sometimes pollutes perfectly normal definitions by excessive and ignorant euphemisms.

My dear man, you should look into how the term "Caucasian" came about. Every "term" that attempts to encompass "every" group of people that share some assumed characteristics will have its shortcomings. Caucasian is much more flawed than European American.

Why don't you speak to some Ethnic Studies professors of repute before lecturing me? By the way, I have.

When did I ever say my experiences were universal? You miss my point ENTIRELY. To argue that my experiences are unique to my one hospital and my one top tier school is ridiculous, and you need a lot more clinical exposure. I meant people should realize that the general public is much more aware about affirmative action in medical school than people here generally realize.

Again you miss my point. I was arguing on the basis of principle. Were this a valid situation, what would happen and why? What if both the URM student and the European American student (if I strike a nerve, I'm sorry) both served impoverished minority communities and had similar GPA/MCAT, who would get in?

Please get off your high horse sir.

 

[mipp0]

1. As previously mentioned, nothing is every equal. It seems as though people acknowledge racist beliefs but deny any type of equality.
I am curious about this logic. If all things are equal up until medical admissions, why do people are URM under-represented? (Not a rhetorical question, I am seriously curious about how people mentally resolve this paradox in logic) Unfortunately, i anticipate inevitably prejudice and/or racial neo-liberal explanations....

2. We do NOT necessarily have an easier time getting into medical school. People seem to forget about people who have alumni parents, connections within the university or live as residents of Mississippi, or Texas. People accepted as a result of these advantages far outnumber accepted URM when the HBCU are excluded. (Probably with them included actually) Hypothetically, if an ORM has a 3.7 gpa with a 33 MCAT is rejected from a particular school, I can almost guarantee there are 15-20 ORM, and maybe 4 URM who got into that particular medical school with lower stats.

3. When considering the number alone, far more ORM are admitted to schools with lower stats than URM. (Simple based on the number of applicants)

4. Certain people will assume minorities don't deserve their place whether or not affirmative action exists... even in cases when those URM receive higher stats than their ORM cohort (UC Berkeley post-prop. 209) I could have a 4.0 and a 40 mcat and still have many ORMs questioning my worth. That is the nature of prejudice...and it is ugly no matter the justification.

5. At the end of the day, the only thing that matter is whether or not you have the capacity to serve.

1. You tell me.

2. It's troubling you think you know the lived experiences of ORM people. URM groups are not the only ethnic groups that struggle with poverty and systematic racism. I can tell you I did not have alumni parents, live in a nice neighborhood, or live in a nice house. I struggled in a city rampant with criminality, drugs, and violence. Your second assumption is based on nothing. Just because you think it's true doesn't make it so.

3. Please show me some hard data.

4. If affirmative action did not exist, this wouldn't be as a big a problem. The standard should be the same for all people.

5. Some people aren't given this chance.

 

[mipp0]

Wow, I'd hate to go to school where you go. You seem to live in a very hostile and unfriendly environment. Is it a Red State?

Yes, California is as red as you go.

 

[riverjib]

I know this has been debated a lot, but I searched and didn't get the answer I was looking for. I understand the standards to meet are different, but I have no idea how different.

Example:

White male with a 3.8 GPA, 36 MCAT, 2 years research (no publications), 6 months volunteering, 3 months shadowing.

VS

URM with a 3.6 GPA, 34 MCAT, 1 year research (no publications), same amount of volunteering and shadowing.


Who's got the better shot at a top 20 medical school?

What would a URM need to do to get into a school whose averages are 3.9 GPA and 36 MCAT? Please answer this question at least if not the other one.

I don't know the answer and haven't read the subsequent posts here. I only hope that ADCOMs look at students as individuals. I won't go into full details since I posted this elsewhere, but I had two friends, both black females who graduated high school with me. One came from poverty and helped support her mother and younger siblings throughout high school, undergrad, and med school. She had a 3.3 GPA and a 29 MCAT. The other had parents who were very successful professionals and paid her way through Dartmouth. She had a 3.6 GPA and 32 MCAT. Both are finished with med school now, and attended state med schools. The evidence points to this, but I'd like to think that ADCOMs looked at their individual situations before making any decisions. It's not about the color of your skin...it's the extent to which you had to push to get where you did that really matters.

 

[ReptarBar]

It appears that ~45% of each ethnicity is accepted. ~45% of all applicants are accepted. It seems like ~45 is the magic number to be "fair" to each ethnicity.

Even though my family comes from mexico, I do not identify myself as being mexican-american/hispanic/whatever or anything else. Hell, I don't even look the part. I'm just human, so I'll be checking off N/A for that part of the application.

no, youre going to say youre a URM. life is handing you a free leg-up, and youre not gonna take it? this is real life man...who knows, maybe getting into a certain med school allows you to get a certain position in the future you always wanted. think about your kids...stop being so selfish! pride isnt everything!

 

[TNK123]

1. You tell me.

2. It's troubling you think you know the lived experiences of ORM people. URM groups are not the only ethnic groups that struggle with poverty and systematic racism. I can tell you I did not have alumni parents, live in a nice neighborhood, or live in a nice house. I struggled in a city rampant with criminality, drugs, and violence. Your second assumption is based on nothing. Just because you think it's true doesn't make it so.

3. Please show me some hard data.

4. If affirmative action did not exist, this wouldn't be as a big a problem. The standard should be the same for all people.

5. Some people aren't given this chance.

1. I already know my answer. I would love to hear your perspective if your brave enough to say it...

2. This statement was pointing out the unfair advantage that SOME ORMs receive, namely those with Alumni parents or those who have connections within the university. I do not sense any outrage over the fact that these ORMs are getting an advantage over you.

3. When you have 8 URM in a class of 145, (not all of whom have low stats despite belief of the contrary) and the mean stats are lower than those you may or not have--several ORM have gotten in with lower stats than a fellow ORM with higher stats.

4. It should be the same for everyone. But obviously it is not--hence the label "URM", the higher incarceration rates for URM, the greater proportion of minorities living in the ghettos you say that you came from etc...AA no longer exists in some states in terms of race <refer to 209> (though I'm sure you'd get into USC or private university if your parent went there) But a Black student or doctor for that matter will always be questioned regardless of their stats...furthermore, to blame a gov. policy for your prejudice is still prejudice.

5. Yes. Several people aren't given a choice from birth until death, throughout their life in general...I guess the 10% or less of the class consisting of URM (assuming all of them have lower stats, which they don't) are stealing that chance from you...

6. If you apply disadvantaged (Because you grew up in the ghetto) you probably have an even greater advantage than I do...furthermore, if you state an interest in helping in underserved areas your advantage increases even further...have you tried these, or do you plan on moving out of the ghetto and into the suburbs as quick as possible? (Not a rhetorical question)

 

[ksmi117]

It's getting pretty hostile in here. Not cool. Let's at least be civil towards each other.

 

[randombetch]

2. We do NOT necessarily have an easier time getting into medical school. People seem to forget about people who have alumni parents, connections within the university or live as residents of Mississippi, or Texas. People accepted as a result of these advantages far outnumber accepted URM when the HBCU are excluded.

First of all... red herring. Just because there are legacy kids and kids with connections who get in more easily doesn't mean URM gives no advantage.

Secondly, I don't understand how you're trying to argue URM gives no advantage when the average stats of a URM (nation-wide) is lower than the average stats of all non-URMs. If URM status made no different, the average stats of a URM would be equal to everyone else assuming everything else is approximately equal (research, volunteer work, clinical experience, LORs, essays, etc.).

You're arguing that there are more ORMs with lower stats than URMs... that could be true, but is pretty irrelevant. There are also waaaaaaaaaay more ORMs with higher stats than URMs. The average is what's important.

EDIT: wow, congrats on Hopkins, ksmi!

 

[Hoody]

80% of future doctors are white brunette women. I'm blond, actually more like platinum....I think that should count as URM. 👍

 

[neuro raqs]

Someone made a really good point about those MSAR statistics of urm MCAT and GPAs include those matriculants at HBCUs. Are there stats that exclude HBCUs?*

The reason I bring this up is b/c HBCUs generally have a different mission and will accept applicants with lower scores and gpas who show potential (and then the schools give them excellent training so that they can compete after graduating). So for this reason there are a large number of urms with lower stats who are accepted. It seems that at other (non-HBCU) schools, there are often so few urms, perhaps the number of urms at HBCUs are enough to skew the data. In which case, it would appear that most urms at non-HBCU medical schools actually might not have lower stats.

Is there any data on this?

*N.B. I'm not knocking HBCUs by any means, both my parents are Hampton grads. I am incredibly thankful for HU. Just in case anyone misreads my point.

 

[Rach83]

Someone made a really good point about those MSAR statistics of urm MCAT and GPAs include those matriculants at HBCUs. Are there stats that exclude HBCUs?*

The reason I bring this up is b/c HBCUs generally have a different mission and will accept applicants with lower scores and gpas who show potential (and then the schools give them excellent training so that they can compete after graduating). So for this reason there are a large number of urms with lower stats who are accepted. It seems that at other (non-HBCU) schools, there are often so few urms, perhaps the number of urms at HBCUs are enough to skew the data. In which case, it would appear that most urms at non-HBCU medical schools actually might not have lower stats.

Is there any data on this?

*N.B. I'm not knocking HBCUs by any means, both my parents are Hampton grads. I am incredibly thankful for HU. Just in case anyone misreads my point.

Yeah it would be pretty interesting to see the stats of URMs excluding HBCUs, and the PR schools (someone made an excellent point that since english is their second language, they understandably score lower than others).

 

[TaylorMDhopeful]

Yeah it would be pretty interesting to see the stats of URMs excluding HBCUs, and the PR schools (someone made an excellent point that since english is their second language, they understandably score lower than others).

+1. I would also like to see as someone has stated before the % of URMs that apply as disadvantaged each year versus not disadvantaged. I would think that the ratio would be in favor of disadvantaged even though I have no data to substantiate that (just basing my hunch on the high level of minorities hovering around the poverty line). Not every URM is going to be disadvantaged, not at all, but there will be a large number.

I would think that Adcom members know what they are doing. They read the whole app, not just ethnicity and stats. Many people always point to the data showing that minorities are getting into med school with lower stats than everyone else as a proof that they are getting in everywhere with lower stats. I keep hearing about this mythical African American girl who got into Harvard with a 27. HBCUs (accepting around 500 URM students per year) and PR schools (not sure of #) do skew the stats bc like many have mentioned they are willing to take students with lower stats who will fulfill their mission of serving the underserved and minority communities. This does not mean that URM students are getting into the most prestigious (reputation wise) institutions like Harvard and Yale and Hopkins with 27s on the MCAT. I would like to see someone bring data to substantiate that claim. Also, with a much smaller sample size (like 2000 URMs applying) yea you will have some that get in with lower stats that seem to be the norm but bc of ORMs having a much higher number of apps there are more ORMs getting in with lower stats around the country than URMs. URMs are getting into med schools at the clip of an average of 8-9 per class of around 150 or so but somehow they are stealing the seats. There are also high stat URMs that people tend to forget about.

I barely ever hear anyone talk about legacy, getting bonus points because of connections or because of a family member matriculating before. That is someone working off of someone else's success to increase their chances. I guess there will always be a scapegoat though. I think that everyone should just worry about strengthening their own application and doing well on their interviews to increase their chances. Instead of worrying about things that they can't control anyway.

 

[oze]

How would medical schools be able to tell the difference between a Mexican American and a Puerto Rican?

Does anyone know the answer to this question?

haha I'm sorry man, but I'm from Mexico and I have to laugh at that question.

 

[icalz]

80% of future doctors are white brunette women. I'm blond, actually more like platinum....I think that should count as URM. 👍

I'd let you in 😀

 

[mfrizzo3]

.1%

 

[yearn4ivy]

Some posters on this thread seem to lack cultural sensitivity and awareness all together. It makes me wonder if these aspiring doctors will acquire the necessary cultural competency to effectively serve a diverse patient population (or is that something we all put in our PS, but never really mean it).

I had a white friend who MCAT was low (25) but had a good GPA. She still got into med school the year she applied. If she were black/lation/other URM, most people would scream URM privileges. I had an Asian friend from a disadvantaged background (she came to this country as a refugee), she go at 26 on the MCAT, has a good GPA, but thought her MCAT was not good enough...so she did not apply.

Some make it sound like URM students just have to check an imaginary URM block ...and viola...that's an automatic acceptance. Don't these students have to pursue a degree, take premed course requirements, volunteer, shadow, do leadership activities, study for the MCAT, write a personal statement ant most importantly, express their desire and committment to study medicine? Don't these students have to interview and interview well ?
But why consider the whole picture, when you can reduce the whole process to perceived generalizations about URM privileges?

I was reading this NYT article and thought I did share, since it is an example of institutional racism (not related to med school admissions):

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/us/01race.html

 

[bannie22]

See, this is what I don't get. Why would you pick the URM in this situation when they have lower stats in all areas (besides the shadowing/volunteering). IMO, this is what is wrong with the system today is that the more qualified person doesn't get the job.

It happens in other areas as well. Take firefighting, a white male gets a 100 on the test, where a URM gets a 95, the URM gets the job. In a critical position like that, I'd MUCH rather have the more qualified person saving my life than someone who got the job because they are considered a "URM."

It just doesn't make sense to me

neither does it make sense to me to quote a week old post and make some hoolabaloo about it because if you could notice my stance, i believe in meritocracy. if you even know what that means.

because its the same stance as yours. now shoo.

 

[bannie22]

Yes, they are stealing all the med school seats, and stealing all the american jobs...next they're going to be stealing all the white women after they're done stealing all the scholarships....all because some hidden agency is giving them the power to have anything they want. Didn't you get the memo? Oh wait, it was in spanish....

This entire thread is bogus. I wish I was 2 inches taller...can't control it so I'm not going to worry about it.

good job at being ridiculous.
i see you dont just misinterpret my posts.
u misinterpret and exaggerate everybody's posts.

 

[Gallix23]

neither does it make sense to me to quote a week old post and make some hoolabaloo about it because if you could notice my stance, i believe in meritocracy. if you even know what that means.

because its the same stance as yours. now shoo.

Thanks for simply explaining your logic behind your original statement as I did mine. I didn't make "hullaballoo" or attack your point in any way....I simply wanted to know why you'd think that.


People make me laugh 🙄

 

[bannie22]

Thanks for simply explaining your logic behind your original statement as I did mine. I didn't make "hullaballoo" or attack your point in any way....I simply wanted to know why you'd think that.


People make me laugh 🙄

sigh people these days. cant believe they laugh at themselves 🙄

 

[redlight]

honestly, adcom have done a good job of keeping the admissions process a secret shrouded in mist. all we can do is guess how they decide who gets in.

i think "urm status" may help some people at the beginning stages of applying in terms of getting more attention (read: interviews) if they are already competitive because there is a need for more urm physicians.

additionally, methinks the gladwell quote on the first page is right on in that there's probably some threshold where your stats wont hold you back (likey really low for non-elite schools, like 3.0-3.3 and ~30) and med schools just pick intervewees from that pile based on thier needs and the students they are looking for.

after you get the interview it's all about selling yourself and proving you are a good fit, i'd say, so then everyone is fighting for a seat at near equal ground (unless for some reason the school really wants you and was already set on accepting you anyways).

 

[dudechiefboss]

sigh people these days. cant believe they laugh at themselves 🙄

If you can't laugh at yourself, how can you be taken seriously?

 

[icalz]

good job at being ridiculous.
i see you dont just misinterpret my posts.
u misinterpret and exaggerate everybody's posts.

It's called satire sweetheart, watch SNL every now and then and you'll learn about it. I qualified my remarks about 3 posts afterward or was that too much reading for you? I honestly have no idea when I misinterpreted your post...I honestly have no idea when I've ever responded to one of your posts. Your anime avatars kinda weird me out so I've generally stayed away. By the way, good job on misinterpreting my post.

 

[bannie22]

It's called satire sweetheart, watch SNL every now and then and you'll learn about it. I qualified my remarks about 3 posts afterward or was that too much reading for you? I honestly have no idea when I misinterpreted your post...I honestly have no idea when I've ever responded to one of your posts. Your anime avatars kinda weird me out so I've generally stayed away. By the way, good job on misinterpreting my post.

deleted

 

[bannie22]

If you can't laugh at yourself, how can you be taken seriously?

deleted

 

[FIREitUP]

Some posters on this thread seem to lack cultural sensitivity and awareness all together. It makes me wonder if these aspiring doctors will acquire the necessary cultural competency to effectively serve a diverse patient population (or is that something we all put in our PS, but never really mean it).

I had a white friend who MCAT was low (25) but had a good GPA. She still got into med school the year she applied. If she were black/lation/other URM, most people would scream URM privileges. I had an Asian friend from a disadvantaged background (she came to this country as a refugee), she go at 26 on the MCAT, has a good GPA, but thought her MCAT was not good enough...so she did not apply.

Some make it sound like URM students just have to check an imaginary URM block ...and viola...that's an automatic acceptance. Don't these students have to pursue a degree, take premed course requirements, volunteer, shadow, do leadership activities, study for the MCAT, write a personal statement ant most importantly, express their desire and committment to study medicine? Don't these students have to interview and interview well ?
But why consider the whole picture, when you can reduce the whole process to perceived generalizations about URM privileges?

I was reading this NYT article and thought I did share, since it is an example of institutional racism (not related to med school admissions):

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/us/01race.html

you're right, we're all racists. now i have to appologize to jesse jackson because i am disgruntled that people of different races are not considered equal. the credentials of URMs are consistently disproportionally lower than their non-URM counterparts. i don't really see how u can argue otherwise with an anecdote.

if u show a commitment to the under-deserved, then you should get a leg up, but if you are an affluent URM I don't really see why you should get preference over a non-URM who has overcome more adversity. Just my .02 dollars (or 2 cents as they call it).

 

[TNK123]

...if you are an affluent URM I don't really see why you should get preference over a non-URM who has overcome more adversity. Just my .02 dollars (or 2 cents as they call it).

why do you assume wealthy/middle class URMs have an advantage over ORMs who are disadvantaged? There is a special section for individuals who've overcome diversity and trust me...these individuals have are given extra consideration (I will not use the word advantage because these individuals are at a considerable DISadvantage all the way up until admissions, therefore even if they are given extra points on their application, they still had a harder time getting to where they are as a whole) I know several ORM whose stats are similar to my own, but have been accepted to school where I was rejected post-secondary.

Ironically, post-medical school/residency, URM of every socio-economic level and every level of acheivement (low stats and high) will be at a disadvantage on account of a universal assumption that we didn't earn own place, (an assumption that has nothing to do with affirmative action-- prop 209) while the ORM who applied disadvantaged can effectively escape any stigma--IOW his low stats no longer matter after he gains admission through socio-economic affirmative action. This is why URM doctors are more likely to serve in underserved areas. Our Brown/Black skin make our white lab coats disappear.

 

[FIREitUP]

why do you assume wealthy/middle class URMs have an advantage over ORMs who are disadvantaged? There is a special section for individuals who've overcome diversity and trust me...these individuals have are given extra consideration (I will not use the word advantage because these individuals are at a considerable DISadvantage all the way up until admissions, therefore even if they are given extra points on their application, they still had a harder time getting to where they are as a whole) I know several ORM whose stats are similar to my own, but have been accepted to school where I was rejected post-secondary.

Ironically, post-medical school/residency, URM of every socio-economic level and every level of acheivement (low stats and high) will be at a disadvantage on account of a universal assumption that we didn't earn own place, (an assumption that has nothing to do with affirmative action-- prop 209) while the ORM who applied disadvantaged can effectively escape any stigma--IOW his low stats no longer matter after he gains admission through socio-economic affirmative action. This is why URM doctors are more likely to serve in underserved areas. Our Brown/Black skin make our white lab coats disappear.

you and I both know that schools want to promote diversity, and will take the URM over the ORM with same stats any day. but, i respect your opinion and i hope that most people are not so backwards as to look at one's skin color over their abilities and knowledge.

 

[MiSfiT2013]

you and I both know that schools want to promote diversity, and will take the URM over the ORM with same stats any day. but, i respect your opinion and i hope that most people are not so backwards as to look at one's skin color over their abilities and knowledge.

Unfortunately this is not the world we live in. When it comes to the workplace, URMs are often still discriminated against despite their academic achievements...

 

[scattun]

Unfortunately this is not the world we live in. When it comes to the workplace, URMs are often still discriminated against despite their academic achievements...

I just want to say as a hispanic (don't know whether you want to count that as URM or not), I don't think I have ever been racially against in my life, save that time I got pulled over, but really that was more my passenger's fault than the trooper. I am really curious to hear stories from URM's who think they have been discriminated against. I don't know if that needs another thread or not, but either way I would like to hear about others' experiences.

 

[TaylorMDhopeful]

I just want to say as a hispanic (don't know whether you want to count that as URM or not), I don't think I have ever been racially against in my life, save that time I got pulled over, but really that was more my passenger's fault than the trooper. I am really curious to hear stories from URM's who think they have been discriminated against. I don't know if that needs another thread or not, but either way I would like to hear about others' experiences.

I think nowadays racism is more covert than blatant discrimination as law suits and dismay would cause more societal agitation than is already present.

But from my experiences growing up in NYC and just being at institutions on the east coast:
-working in health care facilities for the first time..whenever something of value was misplaced I was always the first person questioned even when there were other students there. When I said I didn't see anything, I was met with mistrust and ostracizing tendencies

-in college, as the only AA male in my major in my class, I found it hard to form study groups. I was even told by a good friend of mine (Asian) that no one wanted me to join the study groups bc they didn't think I was as smart as them without knowing me so I wouldn't be able to add anything constructive

-being targeted by police. I feel as though everytime I see a checkpoint to check bags in the train station, I am always told to come on the line..even on my interview day for Downstate when I was in a suit with a portfolio.

-a few bars in NYC that I have been to have been known for not letting AAs in without basically being in dress clothes (dress shirt, slacks, shoes) while Caucasians can get in with sweat pants and timberland boots. Sometimes I can't even get in even with following the criteria. I was told by a bar bouncer that I wouldn't be getting in tonight because there were enough thugs inside....I in no way look like a thug..short hair, scrawny 160 pounds, glasses and somewhat conservative.

-when I walk by people in the streets, women sometimes clutch their bags closer, change the side of the bag or move on the other side of their male counterpart. Things I have begun to notice probably around high school.

-people explaining everything dumbed down for me as if I need an encyclopedia or dictionary by my side to understand what they are saying..

Maybe I am just overreacting but this is what I notice on a daily basis. I don't always attribute everything bad that happens to me to racism but sometimes I wonder what some people are thinking.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I think nowadays racism is more covert than blatant discrimination as law suits and dismay would cause more societal agitation than is already present.
.

qfmft. it's much more subtle and nuanced. in a way it's worse.

 

[jhamaican]

why do you assume wealthy/middle class URMs have an advantage over ORMs who are disadvantaged?

because that is where the hard stats point.

 

[Dr Lyss]

because that is where the hard stats point.

????

what stats? last time I checked admissions data doesn't look at family income for ANY applicants. I'd love to see it, but it doesn't exist 🙄

 

[jhamaican]

there are more practicing white docs than black docs. how is this fair?!?.

Possibly because there are more white people total in the population?

 

[jhamaican]

????

what stats? last time I checked admissions data doesn't look at family income for ANY applicants. I'd love to see it, but it doesn't exist 🙄

The lower average stats for URM acceptances when compared to the average stats of accepted nonURM lead people to assume (possibly incorrectly) that wealthy/middle class URMs have an advantage over ORMs who are disadvantaged. That is all i am trying to say.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Possibly because there are more white people total in the population?

ratio adjusted. i was also being sarcastic

 

[jhamaican]

ratio adjusted. i was also being sarcastic

as was I

 

[ezsanche]

me too

 

[jhamaican]

Far more of an issue is the fact that there are entire medical schools that are labeled as "primarily hispanic" or primarily "african-american" by SDNs own school selector spreadsheet. If you want to discuss just how much better your chances as a URM are, these cannot be discounted. There does not seem to be entire schools for disadvantaged applicants as there are schools for applicants of certain heritage.

 

[rockaction]

deleted

bannie's losing his/her cool what's the deal

 

[neuro raqs]

.

 

[teenmachinery1]

I just want to say as a hispanic (don't know whether you want to count that as URM or not), I don't think I have ever been racially against in my life, save that time I got pulled over, but really that was more my passenger's fault than the trooper. I am really curious to hear stories from URM's who think they have been discriminated against. I don't know if that needs another thread or not, but either way I would like to hear about others' experiences.

every time i get pulled over i get asked for weapons. :/

Last time i got pulled over the cop asked me who the car belonged to (jeep). I said mine. She then, incredulously, asked if I was sure. :/

It's really hard to tell if people think different of you because of your skin color, but I'm leaning towards this. Otherwise, it's kind of difficult to understand why people seem so _shocked_ to hear me speak, know that I "can read"... etc. etc.

Although I'm half mexican, my ex-girlfriend's mother (former stripper) called me the N word... So I guess there are some equal opportunity racists out there. I laughed it up at the time but this kind of stuff makes you think.

that's all i gots to say.

edit: oh and racism is pretty easy to hear while you hear your mother crying from some young adults yelling at her while she's in her car, telling her to go back to her own country. :/

i have to work now.

 

[nicole004]

Unfortunately a lot of nonURM individuals like to think this country is perfect and that racism no longer exists. Although you (hypothetical person) may not consider yourself a racist I can assure you (from experience) there are plenty of your counterparts that do.

With that said, it really annoys me to see people complaining about URM students getting a so called advantage in med school applications. Non URM students have no idea what we go through almost daily and what we will have to go through as professionals. I love being black and am proud of my heritage, but I would sure love to live a day without any prejudice based solely on my skin...yeah that would be nice, oh hey lucky you!

It is not even that great of an advantage...I would say it makes you like an instate applicant at any school in the country.

every time i get pulled over i get asked for weapons. :/

Last time i got pulled over the cop asked me who the car belonged to (jeep). I said mine. She then, incredulously, asked if I was sure. :/

It's really hard to tell if people think different of you because of your skin color, but I'm leaning towards this. Otherwise, it's kind of difficult to understand why people seem so _shocked_ to hear me speak, know that I "can read"... etc. etc.

Although I'm half mexican, my ex-girlfriend's mother (former stripper) called me the N word... So I guess there are some equal opportunity racists out there. I laughed it up at the time but this kind of stuff makes you think.

that's all i gots to say.

edit: oh and racism is pretty easy to hear while you hear your mother crying from some young adults yelling at her while she's in her car, telling her to go back to her own country. :/

i have to work now.

 

[Gallix23]

Unfortunately a lot of nonURM individuals like to think this country is perfect and that racism no longer exists. Although you (hypothetical person) may not consider yourself a racist I can assure you (from experience) there are plenty of your counterparts that do.

With that said, it really annoys me to see people complaining about URM students getting a so called advantage in med school applications. Non URM students have no idea what we go through almost daily and what we will have to go through as professionals. I love being black and am proud of my heritage, but I would sure love to live a day without any prejudice based solely on my skin...yeah that would be nice, oh hey lucky you!

It is not even that great of an advantage...I would say it makes you like an instate applicant at any school in the country.

This works both ways. I live in an urban place and my school was extremely diverse. I (as well as my friends) have had to put up with all sorts of racial slurs directed at my white skin and Italian heritage. They can yell at it me in the hallways or wherever, and it simply slips through the cracks because there is a HUGE double standard in society regarding this issue.

I'm not saying racism is right at all and the people who I describe in the above paragraph are the scum of the school/community, but racism comes full circle, not just against URMs.

 

[yearn4ivy]

Dear person,

Is you subconscious nagging you? Are you really a racist and trying desperately to clear that up in an anonymous internet forum?

From all I posted, all you were able to glean is that I accused everyone of being racist? That speaks more to you character.
Please read my post again, and if you must, give me a step-by-step breakdown of how you arrived at your interpretations from my post.

you're right, we're all racists. now i have to appologize to jesse jackson because i am disgruntled that people of different races are not considered equal. the credentials of URMs are consistently disproportionally lower than their non-URM counterparts. i don't really see how u can argue otherwise with an anecdote.

if u show a commitment to the under-deserved, then you should get a leg up, but if you are an affluent URM I don't really see why you should get preference over a non-URM who has overcome more adversity. Just my .02 dollars (or 2 cents as they call it).