KCUMB Class of 2018

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I don't think that you can become prepared for poorly written questions. That takes the assumption that there is a common theme to the improper usage of language and you can use that theme to gain an understanding into what the question is "getting at".
 
Do you guys think we can get away with not reading Robbins for Galbraith? He seems to be pretty thorough with his lectures
 
Didn't take that long to outline chapter 11. I feel like you're doing yourself a disservice by not at least reading Robbins.
 
I really don't think most of those questions were poorly worded. There were the one or two that I don't think gave enough information, but I understood what pretty much all of them were asking...

I'd at least read baby robbins for Galbraith. He even said in his first lecture there were a few things he was skimming over that were important for us to understand.
 
Stagg737 said:
I really don't think most of those questions were poorly worded. There were the one or two that I don't think gave enough information, but I understood what pretty much all of them were asking...

I'd at least read baby robbins for Galbraith. He even said in his first lecture there were a few things he was skimming over that were important for us to understand.
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I agree, was only half kidding. Most of the questions were pretty straightforward except for 2-3 which I thought were too vague. The questions that weren't directly related to renal were also mentioned at some point during lectures. As far as Galbraith, I plan on skimming through big robbins once just in case since I don't know what his questions will be like.
 
apr27 said:
i heard that 3 questions are being dropped and 1 question is being accepted for multiple answers.
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Maybe...2 questions will be accepting multiple answers, 3 will likely be dropped or "revised", and there's one which might have been misquoted, so they might either accept 2 answers or change the correct answer. The current grades aren't set in stone though, so they'll probably change.
 
Appears they dropped 3 questions from the total. Average now a 77.

Wow.

Thank the gods that's over.
 
Wasn't there during the review but the outcome kind of shows that there was some issues with the questions themselves: questions with multiple answers, revised...
 
Ok, some were poorly written. That's still way more than there should be. Maybe hire an in house English or Philosophy grad to read over the questions
 
Yeah that whole fiasco yesterday made my grade on the test go up, but my final grade in the section go down... Sigh... Frustrating that they can't just get the questions correct to begin with...

Whatever. Grades don't matter. I passed and now its on to Robbins again:writer::bookworm::writer::bookworm::yawn:
 
I didn't think it was possible, but somehow our school managed to make our rotations options even worse
 
If you read your email, they dropped two locations. One in MI and one in OH. Both were locations that ACTUALLY have residency programs...
 
Doing a rotation at a site that has a residency program isn't going to have any impact on where you match. Most people actually like preceptor based rotations without residents because it means you get to do more. Rotating at large university programs typically means you spend a month doing glorified shadowing. I do agree that we have less than stellar options for sites. Our clinical education is a total cluster, but eliminating 1 spot in Ohio is the least of our worries.

On another note, why is everyone so unhappy this year? Second year has been infinitely better than year one for me. We have no anatomy lab, and virtually no OMM or PCM labs. Maybe our first competency check off will totally change everything, but I thank god every day I didn't end up in Kirksville doing 4 hour OMM labs once a week. Majority of our class time is "DSA", where you can spend your free time as you choose. We just had a class with a 10% curve. Sure, some of the questions were terrible but have you heard about the COMLEX? It's notorious for poorly written convoluted questions. Lets not forget that many of our faculty actually write questions for the exam. At least we have some sort of familiarity with the mumbo jumbo language. Maybe (I'm hoping) it will help?

The whole rotation match thing is sucky and I hope rotations work out for everyone. I personally think every student should have an available spot in KC. Moving twice in 3 years is a huge disservice to us. Our clinical experiences are basically crapshoots. Most people learn a lot and seem to be very happy, but I'm sure there are some students that end up having a horrible experience and are not exposed to what they should be. Not having a hospital is a huge disadvantage for our school. It's unrealistic to think our school could open a hospital, but instead of expanding our school to Joplin, I think the money could have been better spent insuring quality clinical rotations at hospitals in KC and other places in the US (hello chicago....)

Unfortunately the direction our school has gone in is heavily weighed towards step 1.. but theres a lot more to being a doctor than doing well on the first board examination. I'm hoping things work out for us. Good luck guys!
 
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Everyone's experiences are different.
First year was much better for me.....stress level wise, schedule wise, grade wise.
I know second year steps it up a notch....not disputing that....maybe it's just second year exhaustion. People get cranky when they're tired. Lol.
 
Lost Vagus said:
Unfortunately the direction our school has gone in is heavily weighed towards step 1.. but theres a lot more to being a doctor than doing well on the first board examination. I'm hoping things work out for us. Good luck guys!
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I don't see this as unfortunate. First 2 years should be heavily geared towards prepping for step 1. Yes there is much more to being a doctor than boards, but this is the most important exam and will determine our future. Even more so for those of us who want to be in a field that happens to be competitive. Plus were at a disadvantage compared to MDs so its even more important we do well. Focus should be on step 1 and the quality of rotations both. I do agree about second year so far though, so much better.
 
Lost Vagus said:
Doing a rotation at a site that has a residency program isn't going to have any impact on where you match. Most people actually like preceptor based rotations without residents because it means you get to do more. Rotating at large university programs typically means you spend a month doing glorified shadowing. I do agree that we have less than stellar options for sites. Our clinical education is a total cluster, but eliminating 1 spot in Ohio is the least of our worries.

On another note, why is everyone so unhappy this year? Second year has been infinitely better than year one for me. We have no anatomy lab, and virtually no OMM or PCM labs. Maybe our first competency check off will totally change everything, but I thank god every day I didn't end up in Kirksville doing 4 hour OMM labs once a week. Majority of our class time is "DSA", where you can spend your free time as you choose. We just had a class with a 10% curve. Sure, some of the questions were terrible but have you heard about the COMLEX? It's notorious for poorly written convoluted questions. Lets not forget that many of our faculty actually write questions for the exam. At least we have some sort of familiarity with the mumbo jumbo language. Maybe (I'm hoping) it will help?

The whole rotation match thing is sucky and I hope rotations work out for everyone. I personally think every student should have an available spot in KC. Moving twice in 3 years is a huge disservice to us. Our clinical experiences are basically crapshoots. Most people learn a lot and seem to be very happy, but I'm sure there are some students that end up having a horrible experience and are not exposed to what they should be. Not having a hospital is a huge disadvantage for our school. It's unrealistic to think our school could open a hospital, but instead of expanding our school to Joplin, I think the money could have been better spent insuring quality clinical rotations at hospitals in KC and other places in the US (hello chicago....)

Unfortunately the direction our school has gone in is heavily weighed towards step 1.. but theres a lot more to being a doctor than doing well on the first board examination. I'm hoping things work out for us. Good luck guys!
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Correct me if I'm wrong but the resources given to open that campus in Joplin didn't take anything away from the KC campus. The building was given to build a school there. It's not like we could sell the building and invest the $$ elsewhere. The administration took advantage of an opportunity.

That rotation site in OH that was taken down was a 500+ bed level 1 trauma center and used by University of Toledo's medical school too. On paper it looked better then the bunch of the podunk choices we have now. It's ridiculous how much of a disparity there is between MD and DO schools when it comes to clinical education.
 
I wish we had more options in cities with 100k plus people. I'll go crazy in a small town
 
chizledfrmstone said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but the resources given to open that campus in Joplin didn't take anything away from the KC campus. The building was given to build a school there. It's not like we could sell the building and invest the $$ elsewhere. The administration took advantage of an opportunity.

That rotation site in OH that was taken down was a 500+ bed level 1 trauma center and used by University of Toledo's medical school too. On paper it looked better then the bunch of the podunk choices we have now. It's ridiculous how much of a disparity there is between MD and DO schools when it comes to clinical education.
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This gives ACGME residency programs even more reason to discriminate against DOs. Its a systemic problem that needs to be addressed.
 
chizledfrmstone said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but the resources given to open that campus in Joplin didn't take anything away from the KC campus. The building was given to build a school there. It's not like we could sell the building and invest the $$ elsewhere. The administration took advantage of an opportunity.

That rotation site in OH that was taken down was a 500+ bed level 1 trauma center and used by University of Toledo's medical school too. On paper it looked better then the bunch of the podunk choices we have now. It's ridiculous how much of a disparity there is between MD and DO schools when it comes to clinical education.
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I remember either Dr. Han or Dr. Dougherty or someone else said the bolded. So the funding shouldn't affect us in KC. I think there are pluses and minuses to our system. No, we probably won't be at a big academic center for most rotations, but like Vagus said, we'll probably get the chance to actually do a lot more instead of basically shadowing physicians or residents. I'd personally rather get more hands-on experience than just bustling around in a group hoping we get to see stuff, but that's just me.
 
Preceptor based rotations WILL NOT prepare you to be a successful resident or even a Sub-I at an academic program.

Ward based rotations prepare you to be a resident, there are usually (and should) be built in morning reports, noon conference, etc.

You will learn how to put in central lines, suture, intubate, whatever the skill happens to be at the right time. For now, you need to learn the skills that will make you a successful resident such as learning the work up of patients, learning how to write notes, function as a member of a team.

DO students can score well on the step exams, but where the problem lies is in the clinical education. A major concern of PD's in taking DO's into their residency program is that they have only been trained in the preceptor mode and real have no experience functioning like an intern in a hospital as part of a care team

My advice to any DO students is do everything you can to ensure academic, hospital based rotations. Keep this is mind when ranking core sites, and if nothing else, schedule some M4 away rotations in academic centers.
 
meliora27 said:
Preceptor based rotations WILL NOT prepare you to be a successful resident or even a Sub-I at an academic program.

Ward based rotations prepare you to be a resident, there are usually (and should) be built in morning reports, noon conference, etc.

You will learn how to put in central lines, suture, intubate, whatever the skill happens to be at the right time. For now, you need to learn the skills that will make you a successful resident such as learning the work up of patients, learning how to write notes, function as a member of a team.

DO students can score well on the step exams, but where the problem lies is in the clinical education. A major concern of PD's in taking DO's into their residency program is that they have only been trained in the preceptor mode and real have no experience functioning like an intern in a hospital as part of a care team

My advice to any DO students is do everything you can to ensure academic, hospital based rotations. Keep this is mind when ranking core sites, and if nothing else, schedule some M4 away rotations in academic centers.
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I'm assuming this is true (to a certain extent) for most specialties, but are there any specialties other than probably IM where it's much more important to rotate at an academic site? Especially if we're not interested in doing research during residency.
 
Stagg737 said:
I'm assuming this is true (to a certain extent) for most specialties, but are there any specialties other than probably IM where it's much more important to rotate at an academic site? Especially if we're not interested in doing research during residency.
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Research aside, the bottom line is that you only know what you see. If you opt to only rotate with preceptors or in small hospitals that have to transfer out complicated cases for whatever reason, you will have missed out on tons of pathology.
 
meliora27 said:
My advice to any DO students is do everything you can to ensure academic, hospital based rotations. Keep this is mind when ranking core sites, and if nothing else, schedule some M4 away rotations in academic centers.
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are you talking about prioritizing sites near large, academic centers? Also, are any of our sites "academic, hospital based?" To my understanding, we just have community and preceptor based core sites now? Would the non preceptor based (e.g. community hospitals) be our equivalence to a large, academic center?
 
meliora27 said:
Research aside, the bottom line is that you only know what you see. If you opt to only rotate with preceptors or in small hospitals that have to transfer out complicated cases for whatever reason, you will have missed out on tons of pathology.
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Are all the preceptor-based rotations at smaller hospitals though? For example, if we stay in KC and rotate with a preceptor, does that mean that we won't see those cases for sure? Are any of the preceptor sites at larger hospitals with decent diversity of cases?
 
chizledfrmstone said:
That rotation site in OH that was taken down was a 500+ bed level 1 trauma center and used by University of Toledo's medical school too. On paper it looked better then the bunch of the podunk choices we have now. It's ridiculous how much of a disparity there is between MD and DO schools when it comes to clinical education.
Click to expand...
That's what I meant by saying our options became worse
 
meliora27 said:
Preceptor based rotations WILL NOT prepare you to be a successful resident or even a Sub-I at an academic program.

Ward based rotations prepare you to be a resident, there are usually (and should) be built in morning reports, noon conference, etc.

You will learn how to put in central lines, suture, intubate, whatever the skill happens to be at the right time. For now, you need to learn the skills that will make you a successful resident such as learning the work up of patients, learning how to write notes, function as a member of a team.

DO students can score well on the step exams, but where the problem lies is in the clinical education. A major concern of PD's in taking DO's into their residency program is that they have only been trained in the preceptor mode and real have no experience functioning like an intern in a hospital as part of a care team

My advice to any DO students is do everything you can to ensure academic, hospital based rotations. Keep this is mind when ranking core sites, and if nothing else, schedule some M4 away rotations in academic centers.
Click to expand...

It seems to me that our pre-clinical education has been improved at the expense of our clinical rotations. Whatever happened to those supposed sites they were expanding to? Ridiculous.
 
HotLunch96 said:
It seems to me that our pre-clinical education has been improved at the expense of our clinical rotations. Whatever happened to those supposed sites they were expanding to? Ridiculous.
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Oh yeah, wasn't Las Vegas supposed to be a site??

Where the hell did Iowa come from??

The worst part is sometimes the preceptors don't even feel like teaching. The hospital just tells them "Here's some CME credit go teach"
 
meliora27 said:
Preceptor based rotations WILL NOT prepare you to be a successful resident or even a Sub-I at an academic program.

Ward based rotations prepare you to be a resident, there are usually (and should) be built in morning reports, noon conference, etc.

You will learn how to put in central lines, suture, intubate, whatever the skill happens to be at the right time. For now, you need to learn the skills that will make you a successful resident such as learning the work up of patients, learning how to write notes, function as a member of a team.

DO students can score well on the step exams, but where the problem lies is in the clinical education. A major concern of PD's in taking DO's into their residency program is that they have only been trained in the preceptor mode and real have no experience functioning like an intern in a hospital as part of a care team

My advice to any DO students is do everything you can to ensure academic, hospital based rotations. Keep this is mind when ranking core sites, and if nothing else, schedule some M4 away rotations in academic centers.
Click to expand...
This is spot on. I've been told exactly this by other residents as well.
 
apr27 said:
are you talking about prioritizing sites near large, academic centers? Also, are any of our sites "academic, hospital based?" To my understanding, we just have community and preceptor based core sites now? Would the non preceptor based (e.g. community hospitals) be our equivalence to a large, academic center?
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I don't know what the latest rotation sites are. However, at least 2 years ago, there were sites in FL, OH, and MI, that were based out of small/medium sized community hospitals, with active residency programs, so when you did you rotations, you were doing ward based rotations, alongside residents in a training program. This makes for a much better experience as contrasted to some random "IM rotation" which is really just shadowing/assisting a PCP in their outpatient IM practice where they aren't even practicing any evidence based medicine, there is no discussion of major journal articles, etc.

Interestingly enough, the LCME, which the the MD version of COCA, actually has a stipulation in their accreditation criteria requiring clinical training to be alongside residents. I don't think it's a 100% requirement, bc even at MD schools you may have a preceptor based PCP experience, but the LCME at least, thinks there is a great enough educational benefit to training alongside residents that they mandate it in their accreditation requirements.
 
Stagg737 said:
Are all the preceptor-based rotations at smaller hospitals though? For example, if we stay in KC and rotate with a preceptor, does that mean that we won't see those cases for sure? Are any of the preceptor sites at larger hospitals with decent diversity of cases?
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There are opportunities to rotate at KU, St. Luke's, NKC, the Leavenworth VA (core site for the KU residents), and Truman.

I don't know what rotations are available at each hospital, and I don't know the process for securing rotations there, you'd have to talk to the OCCE to see what percent of students can get the majority of their core rotations at those places. For cardiology at least, the Mid America Heart Institute, which is at St. Luke's on the Plaza has a really big national reputation. O'Keefe (from the O'Keefe EKG book, which is the 'Dubin' EKG book for actual cards fellows), is an attending there. One of my classmates had him as an attending. If you're interested in Heme/Onc, KU has an NCI designation which is a really big deal in the H/O world.

I think for IM, there may be a few preceptors who are actually hospitalists who cover NKC. You'll get plenty of exposure to the bread and butter stuff you would see on the wards at any big hospital. While you may not see the Zebras, you'll see all a wide range of horses.
 
"Opening" more KC spots and coming up with specialized rotation "tracks" is really just window dressing our clinical education in my opinion. It appears to me that the school just doesn't want to have to pay for our rotations and would rather dump us onto physicians who probably don't get paid for their time and effort and pocket the difference.
 
@meliora27 , so how important would you say being in the wards is for non-IM fields. Tbh, IM is at the bottom of the list of areas I'm interested in, so for something like family med, EM, or surgery, how important is it to work alongside residents as opposed to working in a community based hospital/clinic with equal exposure to cases? Sorry to ask so many questions, just trying to gauge these factors from someone that's been through it.
 
Stagg737 said:
@meliora27 , so how important would you say being in the wards is for non-IM fields. Tbh, IM is at the bottom of the list of areas I'm interested in, so for something like family med, EM, or surgery, how important is it to work alongside residents as opposed to working in a community based hospital/clinic with equal exposure to cases? Sorry to ask so many questions, just trying to gauge these factors from someone that's been through it.
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So, what is our best rotation site anyways? Also have you heard any news about them adding in some new sites for class of 2019?
 
serenade said:
So, what is our best rotation site anyways? Also have you heard any news about them adding in some new sites for class of 2019?
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The best rotation site is the one where you don't hae to drive to multiple clinics in the region to see an attending for a variable amount of time. So essentialyl one where all your clerkships are in one hospital with as much inpatient exposure as possible. Sure for FM, Peds, Psych you wouldn't mind outpatient. But an IM rotation shadowing a preceptor at their IM specialty group that's all outpatient? No thank you.
 
AlteredScale said:
The best rotation site is the one where you don't hae to drive to multiple clinics in the region to see an attending for a variable amount of time. So essentialyl one where all your clerkships are in one hospital with as much inpatient exposure as possible. Sure for FM, Peds, Psych you wouldn't mind outpatient. But an IM rotation shadowing a preceptor at their IM specialty group that's all outpatient? No thank you.
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Yah, I've heard that's one of the negatives about staying in KC. You end up rotating in different hospitals all the time or something.

I mean, I'm divided. On one hand I want to stay at KC because it means not having to move, on the other hand going to Ohio for better rotations means pulling me and my bf up for just a year and a half since most of my 4th year will be hopefully in the East coast.
 
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serenade said:
Yah, I've heard that's one of the negatives about staying in KC. You end up rotating in different hospitals all the time or something.
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It's not bad per se. I mean heck, people stay in KC all the time and end up matching at awesome places like KU Med and UMKC. So it's def not the end of the world..it's just figuring out what type of training you are looking for for youself.
 
AlteredScale said:
It's not bad per se. I mean heck, people stay in KC all the time and end up matching at awesome places like KU Med and UMKC. So it's def not the end of the world..it's just figuring out what type of training you are looking for for youself.
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True enough. I'll probably still aim to stay in KC for my rotations.
 
Stagg737 said:
@meliora27 , so how important would you say being in the wards is for non-IM fields. Tbh, IM is at the bottom of the list of areas I'm interested in, so for something like family med, EM, or surgery, how important is it to work alongside residents as opposed to working in a community based hospital/clinic with equal exposure to cases? Sorry to ask so many questions, just trying to gauge these factors from someone that's been through it.
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I think FM lends it's self well to outpatient, preceptor based training, however as a rule of thumb, I think in patient training tends to be more robust than outpatient training. For surgery, the problem with the preceptor model, is often that you only get exposed to the cases that your preceptor does. Many times, you're with a general surgeon, so it's a month of hernias/appys/gall bladders/lumps/bumps with +/- a few colectomies and a breast case thrown in. At a hospital, you'll likely get more exposure to vascular cases, trauma, and may have the opportunity to see some sub-speciality cases as well (ENT, Urology, etc.).

You only know what you see, so don't short change yourself. Try to see everything you can. Get to work early, stay late, take an extra admission, take an extra call, in the end you'll thank yourself, and so will your patients.
 
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