Kerry Joke

[navdoc47]

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Ok an offshoot of Kerry's 'joke'...

If you just borrow the money...you won't get stuck in Iraq 😀

let's see the range of humor on this forum - heh.

(please don't bore us with 'omg kerry was insulting...blah, blah, blah').

 

[R-Me-Doc]

Ok an offshoot of Kerry's 'joke'...

If you just borrow the money...you won't get stuck in Iraq 😀

let's see the range of humor on this forum - heh.

(please don't bore us with 'omg kerry was insulting...blah, blah, blah').

Obviously, Kerry was way wrong.

Just ask any doc who studied his a$$ off in college, med school and residency and STILL got shipped to the sandbox!!😀

X-RMD Glad I skipped all that studying . . .

 

[Croooz]

Iraq...Similac....Ipecac....
Kerry was right. Everyone knows those who join the military can't read............





....................the fine print.

 

[DogFaceMedic]

I'm curious:
How many people that now dominate this forum, think our nation is worth defending?

 

[Croooz]

🙄 Here we go...."you're either with us or you're a terrorist." I think a nation that can't take a joke is not worth defending.

I'm curious:
How many people that now dominate this forum, think our nation is worth defending?

 

[notdeadyet]

🙄 Here we go...."you're either with us or you're a terrorist." I think a nation that can't take a joke is not worth defending.

Amen to that. When did speaking your mind become unAmerican?

 

[DiveMD]

The "joke" was a tasteless idiotic comment; but I do not feel personally attacked.

I'm curious:
How many people that now dominate this forum, think our nation is worth defending?

I believe in defending my Nation with my life…but not in giving up my life defending other Nation…

 

[R-Me-Doc]

I'm curious:
How many people that now dominate this forum, think our nation is worth defending?

I'm curious too: what does this have to do with medicine, anyway? 😕

X-RMD

 

[Galo]

Amen to that. When did speaking your mind become unAmerican?

When you are a military physician demanding appropriate patient care. That's when.

People who did not get that joke, (appropriate or not), as a direct dig at Bushy, missed the point.

 

[|2idicu|ous]

I'm curious:
How many people that now dominate this forum, think our nation is worth defending?

I certainly think it is worth defending. It seems that you are you trying to label bitter former milmed docs as unpatriotic- is that true? I hope its not, because thats just ridiculous.

 

[Ex-44E3A]

We all think our nation is worth defending, which is a big reason why a lot of us served.

Did you have another point with that statement?

 

[S-Mart]

Amen to that. When did speaking your mind become unAmerican?

There's nothing more unamerican than stripping people of there identity, breaking down the ego, replacing it with propaganda, and convincing them that a high-and-tight is fashionable. Besides, Kerry was right. Anyone who was or is enlisted will tell you the same thing.👎

 

[Croooz]

Have to disagree with you here. It's precisely these actions that allow us to be Americans so this "stripping" is the most American thing an American can do. We require the sacrifice of service members so that we can continue to enjoy the freedoms we have. With those freedoms come the right to poke fun.

I understand people getting upset at someone who has never worn the uniform making a comment like Kerry. However he's worn the uniform and I agree most any enlisted person would agree with Kerry's botched joke. I do and every Marine and sailor I've worked with has said the same thing when on a deployment. Basically "Man I wish I would've paid attention in school so I wouldn't be stuck doing this s*&^"

There's nothing more unamerican than stripping people of there identity, breaking down the ego, replacing it with propaganda, and convincing them that a high-and-tight is fashionable. Besides, Kerry was right. Anyone who was or is enlisted will tell you the same thing.👎

 

[DogFaceMedic]

I don't think many people who post here understand why Kerry's comments were so insulting. His views are elitist and arrogant. He joined the navy to build his political resume, and was the only swifty to leave his command early voluntarily. It is not that Kerry is unpatriotic, it's that he is wrong about what makes the nation what it is.

It's the arrogance to believe that only those who enlist are those who do not have a better lot in life. I again refer those interested to my favorite infantryman: https://www.infantry.army.mil/videos/video22/index.htm

How many here would consider enlisting if they were not in medicine? And not just for the benefits.

[actually the gas bag figured it out, since he has so much time sitting around thinking and exposing conspiracies. ALthough I am not a recruiter, I am really a secret agent for Haliburten planning to take over the world along with my sidekick, a genetically altered mouse named Pinky...]

 

[militarymd]

I'm curious:
How many people that now dominate this forum, think our nation is worth defending?

I submit to you that 100% of the "people that now dominate this forum" KNOW, not "think" our nation is worth defending.

What's your point?

 

[Croooz]

A politician who joined the military to build their political resume.....should we make a list of these or just leave it at the ones who don't agree with your political views? Politicians who do things to build their resumes.....let's see.....who joined the ANG and was AWOL......

This was supposed to be a joke thread. I guess that's the joke.

I don't think many people who post here understand why Kerry's comments were so insulting. His views are elitist and arrogant. He joined the navy to build his political resume, and was the only swifty to leave his command early voluntarily. It is not that Kerry is unpatriotic, it's that he is wrong about what makes the nation what it is.

It's the arrogance to believe that only those who enlist are those who do not have a better lot in life. I again refer those interested to my favorite infantryman: https://www.infantry.army.mil/videos/video22/index.htm

How many here would consider enlisting if they were not in medicine? And not just for the benefits.

[actually the gas bag figured it out, since he has so much time sitting around thinking and exposing conspiracies. ALthough I am not a recruiter, I am really a secret agent for Haliburten planning to take over the world along with my sidekick, a genetically altered mouse named Pinky...]

 

[orbitsurgMD]

I don't think many people who post here understand why Kerry's comments were so insulting. His views are elitist and arrogant. He joined the navy to build his political resume, and was the only swifty to leave his command early voluntarily. It is not that Kerry is unpatriotic, it's that he is wrong about what makes the nation what it is.

It's the arrogance to believe that only those who enlist are those who do not have a better lot in life. I again refer those interested to my favorite infantryman: https://www.infantry.army.mil/videos/video22/index.htm

How many here would consider enlisting if they were not in medicine? And not just for the benefits.

[actually the gas bag figured it out, since he has so much time sitting around thinking and exposing conspiracies. ALthough I am not a recruiter, I am really a secret agent for Haliburten planning to take over the world along with my sidekick, a genetically altered mouse named Pinky...]

Well, since you have enough time to write, you might practice writing "Halliburton".

Call yourself dogface whatever. Pretend to have the standing to judge both those who post here who have done honorable service as well as John Kerry--you forgot to mention the 3 PH citations that got him the early ticket out, BTW--and then dismiss him as arrogant. Kerry is a politician. Whether he is or isn't arrogant is beside the point. You are the presumptuous one, with the backhanded suggestion that others are somehow less honorable, less a citizen if they would not enlist in the military for reasons that did not include financial benefits. There are plenty of honorably-serving enlisted and officers who are in the service primarily because they were attracted to some financial benefit to service. Sorry, but they can serve well just the same, and they are no less worthy of gratitude or esteem than those whose service comes from other reasons.

I think it is ironic that you disparage Kerry, who like GWB came from a privileged background and like GWB found his way to Yale and Skull and Bones. Kerry, for whatever his purposes, didn't have to join the Navy and didn't have to go to Vietnam. The point is, he did that, when it might have been far safer and more expedient to buff his resume stateside in a national guard unit that didn't care much whether he showed or not.

I think it is very reasonable to conclude that many who enlist do so precisely because they find enlistment their best available option. In fact, for you to believe otherwise is to presume far worse of the capacity for reasoning by those enlistees than any ill-considered remark by a losing Presidential candidate.

 

[MedSchoolFool]

I'm a veteran....Chinese linguist in the Army...and I'll tell you...95% of the military are idiots, *****s, dumb asses, and plain ol' poorly educated boneheads.

Sure there are exceptions. Sure there are some smart people. But by and large this is not what the military is all about. In fact, it better suits the needs of the military to enlist the less educated, because the last thing the military needs are people who think for themself!

I actually feel like I became dumber just by associating with the military. Honestly, I've never been around a group of less sophisticated, more blatantly ignorant, and all around stupid people in my life.

And whoever thinks that being in the military is the equivalent of "defending your country" or "promoting freedom" is really drunk on propaganda. Perhaps there was a time when serving in the military meant these things, but now it is nothing but a political machine used only for control of coveted world resources.

Our way of life is not under attack, even during 9/11. Defending freedom??? Jesus, you people are pathetic. If only it were really that noble. The **** we have done and continue to do to other countries...it's like our leaders were begging for 9/11 to happen. I've got news for you all.....the people who control our country, and our military, are not the guys in the white hats. They are not the good guys. They would sell each and every one of us out in a heartbeat for a penny higher return on their oil stocks.

The honor in the military is only a facade, a mirage, some romantic idea that actually never existed. We like to pat ourselves on the back for WW II, but we would have let every Jewish person on earth perish in a concentration camp if it hadn't been for the fact that our leaders saw we might make a quick buck off of getting involved. So we ALLOWED Pearl Harbor to happen. Open your eyes all you sheep. It will always be this way.

Kerry was right to begin with...it was not a botched joke. It is pretty much a fact. The military is a place for stupid people, misfits, bullies, and social rejects to find a job and a group they can fit in with.

Sorry, but as a veteran I have the right to my opinion...and I have the right to disrespect everything the miltary REALLY stands for. I was one who they couldn't brainwash.

 

[MedicalCorpse]

I'm curious:
How many people that now dominate this forum, think our nation is worth defending?

How many people that now dominate this forum, and place commas where they are not needed, think that breathing is important for human life?

Just as self-evident and just as insulting, Dogface.

Friends don't let friends listen to recruiters' flag-waving horse hockey.

I spent from 1981-2005 in uniform. Do not EVEN think to question my patriotism. If I did not care deeply about the corrupt state of military medicine, I would not be here. If I honestly thought I could make more of a difference inside military medicine than outside, I would still be on active duty. The sad fact, and Catch 22, is this: while on active duty, military members are severely constrained in their freedom of speech. Anything they write or post that is not vetted by their local Public Affairs Office can (and probably will) be used against them by their anencephalic Commanders. The second an officer separates from the military, however, jingoistic *****s will excrete words to the effect that the ex-military officer has no right to speak his/her mind, because he/she left the military in disgust and anguish at the pre-meditated murder of his/her career, due precisely to the lack of honor and justice in today's military medical arena. No rank = no standing; rank = no freedom.

Catch 22.

--
R

 

[MedicalCorpse]

I'm a veteran....Chinese linguist in the Army...and I'll tell you...95% of the military are idiots, *****s, dumb asses, and plain ol' poorly educated boneheads.

Wo juede, ni shuo de hen hao. Jiaru na ge ben de ren bu yao ting ni de shuohua, meiyo wenti. Women laoren zidao, ni shuo zhen de.

Ni de haopengyou,

--
R

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

I'm a veteran....Chinese linguist in the Army...and I'll tell you...95% of the military are idiots, *****s, dumb asses, and plain ol' poorly educated boneheads. And I'm a tool.

Sure there are exceptions. Sure there are some smart people. But by and large this is not what the military is all about. In fact, it better suits the needs of the military to enlist the less educated, because the last thing the military needs are people who think for themself!

I actually feel like I became dumber just by associating with the military. Honestly, I've never been around a group of less sophisticated, more blatantly ignorant, and all around stupid people in my life. Me = tool!

And whoever thinks that being in the military is the equivalent of "defending your country" or "promoting freedom" is really drunk on propaganda. Perhaps there was a time when serving in the military meant these things, but now it is nothing but a political machine used only for control of coveted world resources.

Our way of life is not under attack, even during 9/11. Defending freedom??? Jesus, you people are pathetic. If only it were really that noble. The **** we have done and continue to do to other countries...it's like our leaders were begging for 9/11 to happen. I've got news for you all.....the people who control our country, and our military, are not the guys in the white hats. They are not the good guys. They would sell each and every one of us out in a heartbeat for a penny higher return on their oil stocks. Soy esta tool.

The honor in the military is only a facade, a mirage, some romantic idea that actually never existed. We like to pat ourselves on the back for WW II, but we would have let every Jewish person on earth perish in a concentration camp if it hadn't been for the fact that our leaders saw we might make a quick buck off of getting involved. So we ALLOWED Pearl Harbor to happen. Open your eyes all you sheep. It will always be this way.

Kerry was right to begin with...it was not a botched joke. It is pretty much a fact. The military is a place for stupid people, misfits, bullies, and social rejects to find a job and a group they can fit in with. Still a tool!

Sorry, but as a veteran I have the right to my opinion...and I have the right to disrespect everything the miltary REALLY stands for. I was one who they couldn't brainwash.

 

[MedicalCorpse]

Gnomes?

This makes no sense. This post has my vote for the most unintelligible offering of the year.

--
R

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

Gnomes?

This makes no sense. This post has my vote for the most unintelligible offering of the year.

--
R

I googled troll and that's the first image that came up. The Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll. They're pretty common on the other forums here, but this is the first I've seen in Milmed.

 

[MedicalCorpse]

I googled troll and that's the first image that came up. The Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll. They're pretty common on the other forums here, but this is the first I've seen in Milmed.

Disagree. This guy has sufficient experience to be heard. He also spent quite a chunk of time writing his post. Labeling people as "trolls" without knowing them debases the discourse of this forum.

I consider people like "DogFace Medic" to be more trolls than this guy...DFM posts stuff like "How many people here like to kill puppies? If you don't like to kill puppies, shut the F*** up!".

Besides, this dude speaks Zhongwen, so he has to be cool

--
R

 

[MedSchoolFool]

Wo juede, ni shuo de hen hao. Jiaru na ge ben de ren bu yao ting ni de shuohua, meiyo wenti. Women laoren zidao, ni shuo zhen de.

Ni de haopengyou,

--
R

Nali, nali. Nin shuode tai keqi. Nin yiding hen congming, hen haode ren. Wo kanbudong "jiaru", keshi kandedong biede.

Nin zai nar xuele Zhongwen? Shi bu shi Jiazhou? Shi bu shi Guofang Yuyuan Xueyuan? (not spelled right). Wo hen jiu mei shuo Zhongwen, keshir hai jide yidianr.

Zaijian haopengyou

Jiang DingWei (Chinese name)

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

Disagree. This guy has sufficient experience to be heard. He also spent quite a chunk of time writing his post. Labeling people as "trolls" without knowing them debases the discourse of this forum.

Seriously? The guy threw a flaming terd into the room to watch what would happen. Guess I'm obliging now, stomping on the bag for all it's worth.

95% of the military are idiots... Jesus, you people are pathetic... we ALLOWED Pearl Harbor to happen... The military is a place for stupid people

Yes, I'm sure it took quite a bit of time compiling that pile of garbage. Bravo

 

[MedSchoolFool]

Seriously? The guy threw a flaming terd into the room to watch what would happen. Guess I'm obliging now, stomping on the bag for all it's worth.



Yes, I'm sure it took quite a bit of time compiling that pile of garbage. Bravo

Tic, Tic, Tic....I believe that a troll would more likely be someone who inserts words into another persons post when they are quoting them. Something like what you did with your "tool" comments earlier.

Like I said...I'm a veteran. I think I'm qualified enough to speak out on this issue. You can call it being a troll, but frankly your juvenile postings are pretty much the epitome of what it takes to be a troll.

So let's leave it at this....let those of us with military experience speak about the military, and in return we will let those of you with troll experience speak about being a troll. OK, troll?

 

[Rydney]

Seriously? The guy threw a flaming terd into the room to watch what would happen. Guess I'm obliging now, stomping on the bag for all it's worth.



Yes, I'm sure it took quite a bit of time compiling that pile of garbage. Bravo

Attacking an individual in an attempt to discredit his or her position does not make said person wrong, it only makes you a Republican.

 

[MedSchoolFool]

Oh! And by the way, there is a distinct difference between "trolling" and engaging or initiating a worthy debate.

This is actually an issue I feel particularly passionate about since I witnessed first hand how the talk of "freedom" and "defending our country" is a white-washing lie. And as far as the majority of military persons lacking smarts, I would love to see a statistic on the levels of education among the military enlisted vs. the levels of education in the general populus. I'm sure that would be an eye-opener for you.

But it isn't necessarily a lack of education that makes me feel most military persons are stupid. Rather it is their commitment to narrow-mindedness. Trust me, the military targets young people for a reason, and it isn't because they have more physical abilities. It is because they have less intellectual abilities. The military actually fosters stupidity because stupid people do not question authority. Stupid people will willingly die for invalid reasons. Stupid people will believe whatever you tell them to believe. Stupid people don't complicate matters when businesses and government conspire to go to war and make profits.

To paraphrase, John Kerry may have said there are stupid people in the military, but George Bush and many others have actually treated them like they are stupid by portending to give a damn about their welfare. By selling them a lie that they are fighting and being killed for anything that matters.

 

[Ex-44E3A]

MedSchoolFool: I don't know what branch you served it, but most of my troops were brighter than average... I'd say better educated than the civilian population, but you don't have to believe me:

Here's some light reading

Also, what's up with the "US practically begging for 9/11 to happen?" So it's your contention that the United States wore a short skirt and "asked for it?"

This isn't the appropriate forum for this stuff.

 

[siinew]

Amen to that. When did speaking your mind become unAmerican?

Exactly. Well stated.

 

[siinew]

MedSchoolFool: I don't know what branch you served it, but most of my troops were brighter than average... I'd say better educated than the civilian population, but you don't have to believe me:

Where did you serve then? I disagree. I have 11 years in the Army, both in MI and Special Forces. Dealing with infantry and ground troops was something I did on a daily basis for much of that 11 years. The average education was GED or High School for most of them. Many of them were bright, it's true, but not well educated at all.

While the military makes it easy to get college while you're stationed at a base (the Army does, anyway), it's something that the vast majority do NOT take advantage of.

But all this is beside the point. Kerry's remark was most likely in reference to our president specifically anyway (not the troops), although he has a point either way. Or are you going to start elaborating on the superb intellectual capabilities of GWB who can barely form a sentence on his own (and, "mommy, I just made a doody in the toytoy by myself" doesn't really count as a sentence on your own if you're looking for examples).

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

Guys, y'all just lost all credibility with me. It's like like listening to some seemingly wise old man talking about his views on current events, only to find out he believes the government is run by alien cows from the center of the earth. Good luck in DO school next year MedSchoolFool, try and leave your bitterness at the door. Have fun writing your essays MedCorpse, I'll see you on the news with all the other picket-waving crazies one day (honest to goodness man you're an anesthesiologist; don't you have anything better to do with your time?). The troll is gone...

 

[MedicalCorpse]

Nin zai nar xuele Zhongwen? Shi bu shi Jiazhou? Shi bu shi Guofang Yuyuan Xueyuan?

(Switching to English so as not to annoy the non-Chinese-speaking denizens of this forum)

I taught myself Mandarin using books and tapes. For a time while I was stationed in California (Travis), I took Saturday Chinese lessons via a UC Davis extension program. I have also picked up a bit from my wife, who was born in Taiwan, and her mom, who fled Communist China in 1949 with Jiang Jieshi.

The people in this forum are very patriotic, in general, as am I, and as are you, in your own way. However, there is a great difference between supporting and defending the Constitution and "my country, right or wrong". Where our country has been "wrong", whether in following disastrous foreign policies or murdering military medicine, you and I feel the responsible parties should be held accountable for their misdeeds. Only by pointing out errors can wrongs be righted.

However, there are certain recruiters and recruiter wannabes here who follow the U.S. Military's New 2006 Core Values:

1) "Shut up you whiner or else you hate the troops and support terrorists and kill puppies."
2) "Because active duty troops are forbidden by Art. 88 of the UCMJ from speaking out against our Commander in Chief, we are going to hold civilian military veterans to the same standard. Shut up."
3) "If you thought (military medicine, military policy) was so important, you should have stayed in the military to try to change it from within, regardless of the brutal mechanisms in place designed to quash dissent from active duty subordinates (NJP, UCMJ, adverse assignments, career immolation via bad OPRs). Now that you have left active duty, you are instructed to shut up, because the experiences and opinions you have accumulated after 19 years on active duty are irrelevant. Shut up."
4) "You guys should know that all of the problems you relate from your active duty service last year have been fixed this year. You are no longer on active duty, so you missed the palm fronds and grape peelers we have acquired to make our AD docs' lives a virtual paradise. Shut up."

As I understand it, your point re: 9/11 was that years of failed policies under Presidents of both parties, combined with ignorance of Wahhabist outrage at U.S. bases in their Holy Land (Saudi Arabia), mixed with official neglect of the critical danger posed by Al Qaeda, and inaction by both Clinton and GW Bush prior to 9/11 to neutralize this danger, facilitated this tragic and unjustifiable mass murder. Few rational people would argue the converse. Just read the 9/11 Commission report to learn how many levels of our government failed miserably over many years to take the crucial yet simple actions which might (might) have prevented this tragedy, along with the attack on the Pentagon and United 93.

Re: Pearl Harbor. I just went to the International Spy Museum in Washington, D.C. Many books have been written regarding what we knew when about the Japanese "sneak attack" at Pearl Harbor, including why the U.S. Navy chose to concentrate so many ships there as "sitting ducks".
The Japanese Purple code had been broken long before 12/7; however, as many books indicate, it is probably more likely that bureaucratic friction and miscommunication prevented appropriate warning of Japanese intentions, rather than a pre-meditated conspiracy within the Roosevelt administration; see http://www.amazon.com/Pearl-Harbor-Decision-Roberta-Wohlstetter/dp/0804705984: "In the last few hours of peace, the detection and communication of warning signals depended most desperately on the speed and efficiency of technical facilities and on the reaction time of the individual observer." Speed, Efficiency, Reaction Time: not words anyone has ever used to describe any large military/political bureaucracy anywhere at any time.

Don't listen to the reverse Voltaires here, who declaim self-righteously:
"I disagree with what you say, and will fight to the death to prevent you from saying it." Name calling, labeling, and other 3-year-old levels of irrational discourse should not dissuade any of us from speaking truth to power.

--
R

 

[MedicalCorpse]

Have fun writing your essays MedCorpse, I'll see you on the news with all the other picket-waving crazies one day (honest to goodness man you're an anesthesiologist; don't you have anything better to do with your time?).

I do have better things to do with my time.

The fact that I choose to come here to stand up against the willful destruction of military medicine reflects how important this issue is to my heart. I was tragically unable to deflect the juggernaut of the Military Medical Corpse from plopping into the Porta-Potty of mission failure while on active duty. I still care enough to try to work for reform and reincarnation of military medicine from the outside, now that I have regained the 1st Amendment civil rights I gave up while on AD under the UCMJ.

I don't think that either you, Tic, or MedSchoolFool is a "troll". Everyone is entitled to his/her opinions. The artificial medium of words on a computer screen guarantees misunderstandings and resultant textual assaults and blathery. If we were all sitting in a bar somewhere quaffing brewskis and debating these issues, our facial expressions, hand gestures, vocal intonations, and, in my case, tears would soften the harsh interactions I have found in every single online discussion forum since, oh, 1994 or so, including Usenet, Compuserve, IRC, and, nowadays, blogs and fora such as SDN.

Everyone take a deep breath and repeat after me:
"You have a right to your opinion. It does not make you insane or inhuman to have a different opinion than myself. I will not tell people to shut up or label them with insulting monikers in order to bully people on the internet to see things my way. I will defend your right to hold and express opinions with which I vehemently disagree. Let's continue the dialogue rather than attempting to force everyone to follow one party line. Can't we all just get along?"

--
"Blessed are the MedicalCorpses, Because they will find, um, something something."

 

[MedicalCorpse]

Here's some light reading

Spppftth. Gulp. Ow. I just spewed coffee all over my monitor. Thanks, dude.

You rely on The Heritage Foundation for your information?

From: http://www.heritage.org/About/images/about-FEATURE.gif

Ex-44E3A, you know I value your opinions and experiences greatly, and agree with almost (almost) everything you have written here, but, c'mon, where's the "Fair and Balanced" when you link to the Heritage Foundation?

I might as well fire up my browser and link to boilerplate from the Institute for Policy Studies, the Progressive Policy Institute , the Center for American Progress , or the Economic Policy Institute.

Sigh.

Your registered-Republican-since-1981 buddy,

--
R

 

[Ex-44E3A]

I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth, MedicalCorpse.

If you have a disagreement with the methodology, or number-massaging in the study I linked, then that's fine... it's simply one of the first that popped up when I Googled "military, demographics, study." At least I threw out something besides my anecdotal opinion.

* Addendum *
Here's something from the "Resource Center for Non-Violence" (whoever that is, but I doubt they're Neocons). The money quote is "Today's servicemen and women may not be Ivy Leaguers, but in fact they are better educated than the population at large: reading scores are a full grade higher for enlisted personnel than for their civilian counterparts of the same age. "

So there you have it... from the other side.

And in the interests of fair and balanced, I think every president going back to Carter shares part of the blame for fumbling the Islamic Fanatic Football... oh well, that's a debate for another time, and another forum.

Sorry about your monitor

 

[MedSchoolFool]

Experiential evidence is often of some greater value than factual claims. Think about it....In med school the first 2 years are traditionally devoted to basic sciences...we learn how the body is supposed to work and how normal functions are interrupted. These are the facts. But it is during those next 2 years, the clinical years, when it all really comes together. The facts are reinforced, altered, stretched, fine-tuned, etc. because of our experiential evidence gathering during these 2 years. Direct, personal observation is not an inferior method for attaining the truth. It is quite essential.

However, I really appreciate the efforts taken to research and present discreet exhibits of evidence in support of one POV or the other. If anything it shows a determination to argue your point. But always consider the source. Very few studies concerning our governent and military are not without an agenda. I am admittedly on the liberal side of the table, but I was not always.

Anyhow, I'm in complete agreement with what Kerry said, both the "original" version and the "botched" version. Both statements make sense to me.

 

[siinew]

Anyhow, I'm in complete agreement with what Kerry said, both the "original" version and the "botched" version. Both statements make sense to me.

👍 Exactly.

 

[g293]

I'm a veteran....Chinese linguist in the Army...and I'll tell you...95% of the military are idiots, *****s, dumb asses, and plain ol' poorly educated boneheads.

Sure there are exceptions. Sure there are some smart people. But by and large this is not what the military is all about. In fact, it better suits the needs of the military to enlist the less educated, because the last thing the military needs are people who think for themself!

Perhaps your opinion comes from being ex-Army. I was an AF intel officer from 87-96 and my first assingment was at an airborne intel squadron supervising over 200 enlisted air force linguists. By far the bulk of them were very well educated, many with master's degrees. We did encourage independent thinking since they were doing work that required picking out what may be important from what may not be. The military doesn't have a monopoly on idiots, *****s, dumb asses and poorly educated boneheads.

Now as an AF urologist, I certainly do see some boneheaded and stupid people in the service. I also see them at Taco Bell, the local mall and all over the place. One of the most important lessons I have learned so far in life is that there isn't a level you will reach in life where you will only be surrounded by smart, friendly, trustworthy people. You start off in undergrad thinking that all my co-workers who made it thru college will obviously be smart, full of common sense and an overall great bunch of people. How disappointed you are when you realize that isn't true. Same thing when you go to medical school-everyone had to get thru interviews, score well on the MCAT, get good grades--finally I'll be surrounded by smart, caring, funny people and lose all the sociopaths. Wrong again!!

Finally, I guess I'm thick headed, but if one of you is smart enough to be on the same playing field with John Kerry, could you please explain how his comments were a "botched joke"?? I'm serious here, I don't get the joke.

“You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq.”

As I read this, he is basically saying that the economy is pretty strong right now, so if you enter it well educated, you can do well for yourself. If you're not smart, you go in the military and go to Iraq. Where is the George Bush angle here??????????

 

[siinew]

Finally, I guess I'm thick headed, but if one of you is smart enough to be on the same playing field with John Kerry, could you please explain how his comments were a "botched joke"?? I'm serious here, I don't get the joke.

“You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq.”

As I read this, he is basically saying that the economy is pretty strong right now, so if you enter it well educated, you can do well for yourself. If you're not smart, you go in the military and go to Iraq. Where is the George Bush angle here??????????

"...If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq.” -- if you don't do well in school, or basically an undereducated f*ckup like GWB, you get stuck in Iraq. Well, technically, you get all your servicemen and women who work for you, stuck in Iraq, but the person stuck there, politically speaking, is GWB.

 

[Galo]

"...If you don’t, you get stuck in Iraq.” -- if you don't do well in school, or basically an undereducated f*ckup like GWB, you get stuck in Iraq. Well, technically, you get all your servicemen and women who work for you, stuck in Iraq, but the person stuck there, politically speaking, is GWB.

100% agree with this, and this is exactly what Kerry said. If you read anything else into it, your digging for something that was not there.

Its unfortunate people in this country cannot go outside of our shell and see how dubya is seen by the world. This cowboy has made the US a pariah to the rest of the world.

 

[souter]

Ok an offshoot of Kerry's 'joke'...

If you just borrow the money...you won't get stuck in Iraq 😀

let's see the range of humor on this forum - heh.

(please don't bore us with 'omg kerry was insulting...blah, blah, blah').

"I will not withdraw, even if Laura and Barney are the only ones supporting me." --George W. Bush, talking to key Republicans about Iraq, as quoted by Bob Woodward

"You know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." --George W. Bush, interview with CBS News' Katie Couric, Sept. 6, 2006

 

[g293]

100% agree with this, and this is exactly what Kerry said. If you read anything else into it, your digging for something that was not there..

So, he was at a University, speaking to students, talking about studying and working hard, never mentions the president's office, name or aludes to him in any way, and we are to infer that he was talking about George Bush being stupid??? And since it is an international given (amongst liberals and liberal Europeans anyway) that Bush is stupid, it's his stupidity that got us in Iraq and has us now in a war. That's clear🙄

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZWE4YzAxODIxYzYwMTJlZGQxYTQ0ODZkNGU0ZDZhYjg=

November 2, 2006 8:39 AM

Hey, Stupid
If you’re reading this in Iraq and wearing an American uniform, John Kerry is smarter than you.

By Ed Morrow

“You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq.”


That was what Sen. John Kerry inarticulately said to a bunch of college kids, skipping classes to attend a Democrat rally at Pasadena City College in California. And then Kerry gave a small, smug smile. With American troops on the battlefield, fighting and dying, he had exhibited his superior intellect by insulting their character and intelligence. If only they had applied themselves in school, instead of lazily failing to make “an effort,” they wouldn’t have to dodge bullets in Baghdad. (As it happens, the men and women who serve in the American military are better educated than the general populace.)

After the explosion of criticism that followed his comments, Kerry indignantly refused to apologize and, without a trace of humor, declared the insulting remark was a “botched joke.” He angrily declared, “It disgusts me that these Republican hacks, who have never worn the uniform of our country, lie and distort so blatantly and carelessly about those who have.” This wildly contorted attack was dazzling in its spin and sputter. Kerry, who attained national notice as the face of an antiwar group that used stories told by fake Vietnam vets to brand real vets as war criminals, was insisting that military service made him immune from criticism from non-vets. “Despicable Republicans” and “right-wing nut jobs” were the ones at fault for his remarks being taken literally. We were supposed to know, if we have studied hard and done our homework, that he was insulting the president of the United States, stupid George W. Bush, and not America’s military. That was what that little contemptuous smile had been meant to telegraph. Bush was a slacker frat-rat in school and we are now stuck in Iraq because of his bad study habits and not because we are in a war against Islamist terrorists who have killed thousands of our citizenry and want to kill as many more as they possibly can.

Throughout the 2004 presidential race, Bush’s stupidity was one of the principal themes of the Kerry campaign. Bush = Stupid, while Kerry = Genius. Indeed, liberal mental superiority has been the overarching conceit of liberalism; conservatives are troglodytes, glowering out from their dark caves at a world they only dimly understand, while liberals are just one or two mental leaps short of transcending this mortal coil and ascending into one of those glittering, non-corporeal energy beings that are sometimes featured in science fiction productions heavy on pedantry and short on space babes and explosions.

James Baldwin wryly defined a liberal as “someone who thinks he knows more about your experience than you do.” To that, we can add, “and who thinks, because of his superior knowledge, he should be making your decisions for you.” While one might suppose this would be offensive to the ordinary herd, liberals have included a stepladder in their construct, allowing lesser folks to climb up to their level (or at least to a level just under where the decisions are made). If you agree with them, you’re a smartie, too! In fact, if you base your agreement on nothing more than your feelings of superiority, you’re even smarter and more superior, because you know “The Truth” without the mundane bother of having to reason it out. Democrats have been playing to this too-common weakness by promoting the charge that Bush is stupid.

How many late-night comedy routines and cartoonists have mocked Bush’s intelligence? How many million words describing W’s lack of wit fill the bowels of Al Gore’s invention, the Internet? How often have Harry Reid or Nancy Pelosi or Bill Clinton sought to advance their party by declaring Bush dumb? How many pundits have shortened their workday by disparaging Bush instead of examining his policies? Some conservatives have even joined in. My favorite was a TV pundit who presented an entire program on the issue “Is Bush an Idiot?” The host detailed the president’s “Bushisms.” These are quotations in which Bush jumbled his words or fumbled a rhetorical flourish. Some are amusing but, as a measure of intelligence, they are a poor metric. The president spends large chunks of every day talking to the public, often when he’s exhausted or has no time to prepare. In the thousands and thousands of words he has uttered during his years in politics there are inevitable mistakes. These are lovingly recorded for posterity by his political enemies, who don’t take similar note of the faults of their favored politicians, like Kerry. After analyzing Bush’s faults, the pundit decided that Bush lacked intellectual curiosity. This judgment was undercut by the pundit’s inability to recall the word “curiosity.” He finally offered up “intellectual curiousness.”

Now, how many times have the slurs on Bush’s brain been matched with a specific argument that challenges a Bush policy? We might excuse the comics if they offered similar mockery of liberals but they seldom do that outside of the most egregious cases. The pundits and politicians don’t have any excuse. They are simply resorting to denigration when they can’t counter Bush’s policies. Do you want to criticize Bush tax cuts? You don’t have to counter the argument that the tax cuts stimulated the economy, allowing it to thrive despite 9/11, high oil prices, and the uncertainties of the Terror War—just call Bush stupid. Do you want to criticize Bush’s plan to keep Social Security solvent? You don’t need to explain why Social Security shouldn’t be altered or concoct an alternative plan — just call Bush stupid. You don’t like the war in Iraq? Don’t offer a better strategy or explain how losing will be a good thing for America — just call Bush stupid.
The invocations of stupidity are actually appeals to stupidity. Can’t think for yourself? Uninformed? Do you lack facts to support your opinions? Do you think the Masons or Big Oil or the aliens who snatched Elvis are running the world? Well, don’t bother to stir your brain to assemble your argument or stitch together your grand conspiracy — just call Bush stupid.

This brings us back to Kerry’s “botched joke.” If that is what it was, and not the Freudian slip political maven Dick Morris claims it was, then the joke was just another “Bush is stupid” attack with Kerry positioning himself as smarter. He sincerely believes he is the president’s superior. As Newsweek reported, in the last days before his defeat in 2004, Kerry marveled to an aide, “I can’t believe I’m losing to this idiot.” Kerry’s superiority was cast in doubt not only by Bush handily defeating him but, again, months later, by academic and military records. Kerry finally released some of the military records he had kept private before the election. They showed he had scored lower than Bush on military intelligence tests. Kerry and Bush had both attended Yale (Bush went on to earn an MBA at Harvard while Kerry got a law degree at Boston College) and, while Bush’s grades had long been public, Kerry’s now were published. Bush had gotten a cumulative grade average of 77. This solid C was widely jeered by Democrats till Kerry’s grades came out. He got a 76. To put it in terms the Francophile Kerry might find familiar, his joking about Bush’s poor academic performance is, at best, a case of the kettle calling the pot noir.
Kerry’s self-regard seems to place him above more than just George Bush. After two days of furor over the Pasadena gaff, he finally stopped demanding that Republicans apologize for his mistake and listened to fellow Democrats desperate to pry some sort of apology out of him lest the Democrat party be associated with the words of its last presidential nominee. Kerry issued a statement that was more insulting than his original remark for being crafted with reflection. After invoking his military service, yet again, he regretted “that my words were misinterpreted to wrongly imply” an attack on the military. He then apologized “to any service member, family member, or American who was offended.” So, if you’re so stupid as to not understand he was making a joke, he’s sorry. He followed with an attack upon the Republican party, “their failed security policy,” and vowed “to fight for a change of course to provide real security for our country, and a winning strategy for our troops.” Exactly what that “change of course” is, what “real security” is, or what his “winning strategy” might involve, he didn’t explain. Why should he? We’re probably all too stupid to understand.

Its unfortunate people in this country cannot go outside of our shell and see how dubya is seen by the world. This cowboy has made the US a pariah to the rest of the world.

Yeah, we should elect who France and Germany want us to elect, so as not to come off as "ugly americans" and "cowboys". We don't want Lichtenstein looking down there noses at us, now do we?? Maybe Chirac can come run on the democratic ticket here once he destroys France, and the arab immigrants have burned Paris to the ground🙄

 

[siinew]

Yeah, we should elect who France and Germany want us to elect, so as not to come off as "ugly americans" and "cowboys". We don't want Lichtenstein looking down there noses at us, now do we?? Maybe Chirac can come run on the democratic ticket here once he destroys France, and the arab immigrants have burned Paris to the ground🙄

It's ok, man. You can go back to taking your medication now. That way you won't have to wig out and spend hours prepping a post as both a URL AND a copy and paste of that URL's actual text, with little meticulously bolded areas so we know which areas you are foaming at the mouth about the most, of that right wing propaganda you feel obliged to share in duplicate with everyone.

Count to 10 slowly and find the medicine cabinet. I hear Rush has some pain meds he'll share with you... oh wait, he doesn't take those anymore, just ridicules people with Parkinson's who do.

 

[g293]

It's ok, man. You can go back to taking your medication now. That way you won't have to wig out and spend hours prepping a post as both a URL AND a copy and paste of that URL's actual text, with little meticulously bolded areas so we know which areas you are foaming at the mouth about the most, of that right wing propaganda you feel obliged to share in duplicate with everyone.

Count to 10 slowly and find the medicine cabinet. I hear Rush has some pain meds he'll share with you... oh wait, he doesn't take those anymore, just ridicules people with Parkinson's who do.

Yeah, it took hours to cut and paste🙄 Hopefully you read the part about W's and Kerry's grades being similar. When you start school down in Texas perhaps you'll belittle the locals for their pronunciation of "nuclear" and other big words. Heck, I bet there are a lot of hispanics who "talk funny" too. You'll have a good feeling so much smarter then all of them.

Instead of arguing the idea that Kerry meant what he said or was criticizing the president, you respond with another liberal favorite diversion tactic-change the topic to Rush or some other "conservative". Wow, stunning argument dude............. The amount of thought you've put into your position is staggering.

I'm gonna need some pain meds to get this headache to go away, that's for sure😀

Anyway, it's my opinion that his statement was demeaning to the troops, and I being one have the right to believe that. Kerry has a history of talking badly about the military from his return from Vietnam, last year with his famous "we're kicking in doors in the middle of the night scaring children speech" and now this one.
If you have something to talk about other than Ann Coulter or or Rush Limbaugh, I'd like to hear your opinions too.

 

[siinew]

Yeah, it took hours to cut and paste🙄 Hopefully you read the part about W's and Kerry's grades being similar. When you start school down in Texas perhaps you'll belittle the locals for their pronunciation of "nuclear" and other big words. Heck, I bet there are a lot of hispanics who "talk funny" too. You'll have a good feeling so much smarter then all of them.

Instead of arguing the idea that Kerry meant what he said or was criticizing the president, you respond with another liberal favorite diversion tactic-change the topic to Rush or some other "conservative". Wow, stunning argument dude............. The amount of thought you've put into your position is staggering.

I'm gonna need some pain meds to get this headache to go away, that's for sure😀

Anyway, it's my opinion that his statement was demeaning to the troops, and I being one have the right to believe that. Kerry has a history of talking badly about the military from his return from Vietnam, last year with his famous "we're kicking in doors in the middle of the night scaring children speech" and now this one.
If you have something to talk about other than Ann Coulter or or Rush Limbaugh, I'd like to hear your opinions too.

Well, since my wife/wife's family is Hispanic, and I speak decent Spanish, as well as fluent German, and have lived in countries outside the USA, I don't think I have that xenophobic issue of making fun of people who come from different cultures. That's actually more of a trait to be normally conferred on the conservative side of the fence that you are so desperately trying to defend.

As to the issue of what Kerry said, either way it's true, so your whole argument is kind of senseless. Or are you really so naive as to believe that the majority of our troops are college educated intellectuals who are in Iraq because they are there to... what? help GWB find WMD's? Or maybe you're yet another politically correct (as in the new GOP version of political correctness, something like: "don't dare criticize us when we invade a sovereign nation, imprison and torture people illegally, commit any number of crimes of corruption, or you are obviously a terrorist") conservative who wants to find an excuse to summon up "outrage" at Kerry's horrible statements to try and deflect some of the election a$$-kicking that will likely take place in a few days?

I thought the statements by Laura Bush were humorous the next day... about not making statements that might put our troops in harm's way. I was thinking, like what? Maybe... "Bring it on"?

Again, as to Kerry's "history" about talking badly about the military, well... boo-f*cking-hoo. Cry me a river, dude, but it doesn't hurt to have civilian politicians keep our military in line, unless you'd prefer a military dictatorship. You are likely in the military or have been in the military if you are posting here, right? And you honestly have never seen our military behave like sh*theels before? Were you an administrative specialist or something? I sure as hell have seen it. Now before you call me a terrorist or anti-American communist or whatever this statement will set you off to do, think carefully. If you have actually seen action in the military, then tell me you haven't seen groups of 18-20 year old kids with high school educations (who comprise the majority of the troops on the ground) act like dumba$$es (and worse) when it was highly inappropriate and unprofessional to do so.

And finally, at least KERRY ACTUALLY SERVED... in a WAR no less. In my book that gives him a lot of talking rights. Unlike someone else I know who ran like a chickensh*t to the guard, sheltered by daddy, and even then couldn't hack it. Or maybe you could fall back on Cheney's military experience. LOL. Well, at least Cheney did see some form of combat. While hunting quail, anyway.

I'm not too sure whose parents bought them a better education and who slacked off more than whom between GWB and Kerry, but it doesn't take a genius to listen to the two talk to figure out which one actually has the ability to form a coherent thought, and which one is about 2 steps from the short bus. If you don't get that, then I guess I'm wasting my time arguing.

 

[Ex-44E3A]

Ummm yeah. There's so much political spin going on here, it's ridiculous... and that includes the "he was obviously talking about Bush" people.

I'm not all down with Rush, Bush or Kerry. Kerry may have been speaking from the heart, but whether he's actually right or not is immaterial... he either thought he was right, or he was too damned arrogant to admit his mistake.

If he'd simply gotten his speech wrong (and he should have immediately realized that he had, considering he botched it so terribly), what should he have done? What would any of us have done?

Answer: any of us would have immediately stopped, chuckled, made a self-effacing apology about how badly we'd screwed it up (and maybe turn that around to make a joke on the President... not like that's challenging or anything "geez... I'm starting to sound like the President"), and go on. Those of us who are/were academicians have given umpteen lectures, and screwed up something during the presentation... any public speaker has been in Kerry's shoes, and there's a right way and a wrong way to deal with it. Kerry chose the wrong way.

What did he do instead? Total attack-mode... "I'm not apologizing for anything." His ego is so stinking big that it took him a few days of his own party jumping his case to wring even a half-hearted apology out of him, and his "apology" was the usual blame-shifting lawyerly "I reget my remarks were misinterpreted..." that all politicians offer. Haven't these guys learned yet that the cover-up is worse than the offense?

Homework assignment: Contrast these two phrases:

"I'm sorry I offended you"

vs

"I'm sorry you misinterpreted my remarks"

One is an admission of fault, while the other is a back-handed apology that shifts the onus of the problem onto the other person, ostensibly for their inability to parse the other person's point (ie. you're too much of an idiot to comprehend my brilliance). This is verbal judo 101.

Kerry may not think the military are all stupid... I'll grant him that (though he's certainly defamed them in the past), but he's still guilty of arrogance and hubris.

Whatever... what he thinks doesn't matter anyway. Let's Move On (TM)

 

[MDDOWhatever]

->as in the new GOP version of political correctness, something like: "don't dare criticize us when we invade a sovereign nation, imprison and torture people illegally, commit any number of crimes of corruption, or you are obviously a terrorist"

So true. That's an interesting way to put it... the "new political correctness."

 

[dry dre]

Now, how many times have the slurs on Bush’s brain been matched with a specific argument that challenges a Bush policy? We might excuse the comics if they offered similar mockery of liberals but they seldom do that outside of the most egregious cases. The pundits and politicians don’t have any excuse. They are simply resorting to denigration when they can’t counter Bush’s policies. Do you want to criticize Bush tax cuts? You don’t have to counter the argument that the tax cuts stimulated the economy, allowing it to thrive despite 9/11, high oil prices, and the uncertainties of the Terror War—just call Bush stupid. Do you want to criticize Bush’s plan to keep Social Security solvent? You don’t need to explain why Social Security shouldn’t be altered or concoct an alternative plan — just call Bush stupid. You don’t like the war in Iraq? Don’t offer a better strategy or explain how losing will be a good thing for America — just call Bush stupid.
The invocations of stupidity are actually appeals to stupidity.

Taking note of the last referenced comment, Bush is stupid. If you think the economy (i.e. the economic future of the United States) is so strong (thriving[!]), you may belong in the boat. Consider the remarks of one non-pundit on this issue:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20061028/D8L1OC5G0.html

Upon entering office, Truman said that "the buck stops here." Well, with respect to the current President, prominent neocons are saying (with respect to the failure of Iraq) 'the buck stops with him':

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2006/12/neocons200612

The above is not an endorsement of Kerry nor his party, but rather a reality check to your rosy assessments.