Key points in letter of recommendation?

[Daniel M. Pitta]

What are some key points you had your boss/coworkers/head PT touch on re: you for your PTCAS reference? Some schools require you to have two different PTs write you a reference. I only have one PT that I know on any sort of personal level, and the other PT whom I've worked for says he doesn't really have time to write me one, but will sign off on it if I write my own...so that puts me in the awkward position of writing my own letter of recommendation.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated...

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[redrose424]

They have to follow a link through their email to write you one... so how are you going to write your own?

 

[jnllvllnv]

I'm in a similar situation. My anatomy professor isn't a big computer person and allowed me to write my own recommendation.

I'm not too sure about content yet, but I have been told to make sure the style of my writing for the recommendation is different in comparison to my essay for the PT applications.

 

[Phyline]

They have to follow a link through their email to write you one... so how are you going to write your own?

You write a letter and give it to them to upload.

 

[Daniel M. Pitta]

They have to follow a link through their email to write you one... so how are you going to write your own?

One of my old bosses asked me to write out a rough draft of key points I'd like him to touch on, and then he would put it in his own words.

 

[ptisfun2]

What are some key points you had your boss/coworkers/head PT touch on re: you for your PTCAS reference? Some schools require you to have two different PTs write you a reference. I only have one PT that I know on any sort of personal level, and the other PT whom I've worked for says he doesn't really have time to write me one, but will sign off on it if I write my own...so that puts me in the awkward position of writing my own letter of recommendation.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated...

If you are applying to PTCAS schools, I recommend structuring a letter to touch on each of the check boxes for the rubric.

 

[starrsgirl]

They have to follow a link through their email to write you one... so how are you going to write your own?

After the check boxes, there is an open section for them to write their own thoughts. I think this section is the most important part of the recommendation. I highly recommend writing your own bullet points or giving a lot of ideas/info to your writers before they submit.

I tried to have my references touch on weaknesses in my application. For example, I had a very low GPA from many years ago. I made sure one reference talked about how I worked full time for him while pulling a 4.0 in my master's work. And I also balanced a lot of extra volunteer and service work at the same time (trying to show I could handle a heavy workload with ease)

I had an instructor talk about how I was as a student (trying to paint a picture of my personality with my classmates and instructors...touched on tutoring my classmates, leading discussions, group projects.). I had my PT reference describe my interactions with patients, my initiative around the clinic and my dedication to the field.

Try to think of some ways a reference could describe you that will further bring you to life for the admissions committee.

 

[osupt]

I do not think writing your own letter is honest, as future healthcare professionals we need to hold ourselves to higher standards than this. Patient's want to be treated by professionals with high integrity, which I am not seeing in this thread. I guess it's up to you guys but that completely ruins the integrity of the LOR's. I would never be ok with writing my own LOR, but I guess that's a personal choice.

 

[jnllvllnv]

I do not think writing your own letter is honest, as future healthcare professionals we need to hold ourselves to higher standards than this. Patient's want to be treated by professionals with high integrity, which I am not seeing in this thread. I guess it's up to you guys but that completely ruins the integrity of the LOR's. I would never be ok with writing my own LOR, but I guess that's a personal choice.

Many PTs, professors, and employers actually request that we write our own LORs. It's pretty common when applying to grad school. I don't think it is fair to bash on the integrity of the people who write their own LORs when their references have requested that it be written by the students themselves. If all of your references requested that you write your own LORs, would you say "no" to all of them? It might seem like an unlikely scenario, but considering that PTCAS no longer takes paper references, it wouldn't be a surprise if many older PTs, professors, and employers had difficulties with the electronic LORs and transferred that responsibility to the student. Two out of four of my references were having difficulty with the electronic LORs (as easy as it may seem for us), and I offered to sit down with them to walk them through it. One of them agreed while the other one gave me her blessing to fill it out for her. For some people, especially professors at big universities, it's a matter of not having the time. If you got the highest grade in your anatomy class and your anatomy professor had you write your own LOR because he/she didn't have the time, would you say "no"?

If writing your own LOR suggests a loss of integrity, there are tons and tons of people getting into grad school with low moral standards.

 

[osupt]

I would say no and find another reference. I worked hard to establish strong relationships with supervisors and professors so that I would be able to get strong letters of recommendations. We are applying to very competitive programs so we should be very high caliber students to get accepted. If you truly are a high caliber student, there should be many people willing to write a LOR for you. If one of the references I chose asked me to write my own, I would use a different reference. Most students are not even able to see the LOR written for them unless they refuse to sign the waiver and contact the schools they are applying to directly to view them, then most likely be questioned in an interview as to why they chose to view the letter. Meanwhile some students are deceiving the schools they are applying to by writing their own LOR's. This is entirely backwards and unfair to students and references with high integrity. Technology and computer skills are essential to being productive in almost any field nowdays, so I have a hard time buying that a reference that carries credibility can't figure out an electronic reference.

 

[jnllvllnv]

Please realize that now you are also bashing on my references too by suggesting that by not being able to complete the electronic reference on their own, they do not have credibility. The reference who was not able to complete the electronic reference has multiple sclerosis and has to be around 70 years old or older. Despite her condition she completed her Masters and despite her age and condition she is currently an anatomy professor. I had a very strong relationship with her as I did receive the highest score in her class and was a TA for her for 2 semesters. I also worked hard to nurture this relationship, but she still had me write my own LOR.

Please be careful about the generalizations you make about others' integrity and credibility. Being a high caliber student is important and I get that you want there to be integrity in the process of applying for school. But another thing to consider, especially when going to healthcare is empathy. There are all sorts of people here in this forum and applying for school. There are traditional and non-traditional students with all sorts of circumstances. Circumstances that may either prevent them from having a plethora of references to choose from or circumstances on the part of the references that prevent them from being able to write LORs for people they do have good relationships with.

No one is in no position to judge any person's integrity, especially in a forum like this where essentially we are all strangers and do not know anything about anyone's circumstances. Being successful in healthcare is not just about being able to apply the knowledge you have, it is also about being able to connect with others and empathize with them.

 

[osupt]

I agree with you on that standpoint, we all should have empathy, and I did not know that your professor had MS. However that does not excuse deception and I will stand behind what I said earlier, writing your own LOR is cheating and inexcusable. If this truly is happening all the time then schools should consider getting rid of LOR's.

 

[jnllvllnv]

Life is not fair and it's something we all have to deal with. There will be people who abuse the ability to write their own LOR and will manipulate the letter to their advantage, but is it really unfair when the student truly is a good DPT candidate? Is that really deception? I understand that you said that if you're really a great student, you should have plenty of references, but like I said before, people have different circumstances.

For a lot of people, the references still do the actual submission, so the references do have the ability to edit the LOR or completely change it. I don't think it's fair to say people are "cheating", when the reference still has full control of what is submitted. Like I said earlier, there's a lot of different circumstances, so it's best to not generalize and label people who happen to have input on their LORs as cheaters or people with no integrity.

I'm only pushing this subject because I feel that most of us have worked very hard to get to this point. These forums are for support and encouragement and it creates a toxic environment when someone decides to point fingers and judge without knowing others' situations. You're entitled to your own opinion and if you believe that LORs no longer serve their purpose, that's fine, but please don't label people as cheaters, lacking integrity or credibility. The process of getting into school is hard enough and I don't think it's helpful when you feel like people are questioning your integrity or credibility, especially when you are just following the instructions of your reference, who is more than likely in some type of authoritative position over you.

 

[Daniel M. Pitta]

I would say no and find another reference. I worked hard to establish strong relationships with supervisors and professors so that I would be able to get strong letters of recommendations. We are applying to very competitive programs so we should be very high caliber students to get accepted. If you truly are a high caliber student, there should be many people willing to write a LOR for you. If one of the references I chose asked me to write my own, I would use a different reference. Most students are not even able to see the LOR written for them unless they refuse to sign the waiver and contact the schools they are applying to directly to view them, then most likely be questioned in an interview as to why they chose to view the letter. Meanwhile some students are deceiving the schools they are applying to by writing their own LOR's. This is entirely backwards and unfair to students and references with high integrity. Technology and computer skills are essential to being productive in almost any field nowdays, so I have a hard time buying that a reference that carries credibility can't figure out an electronic reference.

OK...for instance, UMaryland (my top choice) asks that one of our LOR's come from a supervisor during a volunteer experience. I work full-time and am taking3 prereqs, so am barely able to get 5-10 volunteer hours/week. The last two places where I volunteered, I asked the PT that I shadowed to write me a LOR and they said that they weren't sure they could do it because it's something you would want to ask from someone who knows you on a personal level. Since I am not able to commit more of my time to "getting to know" these potential references on a personal level, what would you suggest I do in order to get a strong LOR?

 

[Daniel M. Pitta]

Many PTs, professors, and employers actually request that we write our own LORs. It's pretty common when applying to grad school. I don't think it is fair to bash on the integrity of the people who write their own LORs when their references have requested that it be written by the students themselves. If all of your references requested that you write your own LORs, would you say "no" to all of them? It might seem like an unlikely scenario, but considering that PTCAS no longer takes paper references, it wouldn't be a surprise if many older PTs, professors, and employers had difficulties with the electronic LORs and transferred that responsibility to the student. Two out of four of my references were having difficulty with the electronic LORs (as easy as it may seem for us), and I offered to sit down with them to walk them through it. One of them agreed while the other one gave me her blessing to fill it out for her. For some people, especially professors at big universities, it's a matter of not having the time. If you got the highest grade in your anatomy class and your anatomy professor had you write your own LOR because he/she didn't have the time, would you say "no"?

If writing your own LOR suggests a loss of integrity, there are tons and tons of people getting into grad school with low moral standards.

Exactly...people in this thread are bashing it without realizing that every PT I asked for a reference either told me they don't have the time or asked me to write it out for them to edit. It's not like I would do it if I had a choice in the matter.

 

[Phyline]

OK...for instance, UMaryland (my top choice) asks that one of our LOR's come from a supervisor during a volunteer experience. I work full-time and am taking3 prereqs, so am barely able to get 5-10 volunteer hours/week. The last two places where I volunteered, I asked the PT that I shadowed to write me a LOR and they said that they weren't sure they could do it because it's something you would want to ask from someone who knows you on a personal level. Since I am not able to commit more of my time to "getting to know" these potential references on a personal level, what would you suggest I do in order to get a strong LOR?

In this case I would actually look elsewhere for a reference or do my best to accumulate enough hours (40? 60? 100?) to develop a close enough relationship with the PT.

 

[redrose424]

OK...for instance, UMaryland (my top choice) asks that one of our LOR's come from a supervisor during a volunteer experience. I work full-time and am taking3 prereqs, so am barely able to get 5-10 volunteer hours/week. The last two places where I volunteered, I asked the PT that I shadowed to write me a LOR and they said that they weren't sure they could do it because it's something you would want to ask from someone who knows you on a personal level. Since I am not able to commit more of my time to "getting to know" these potential references on a personal level, what would you suggest I do in order to get a strong LOR?

In my, probably unpopular, opinion it sounds to me like the PT just didn't want to write you a reference and made an excuse. The PT who wrote my letter I volunteered with for a little over a month, one shift per week, at about 6 hours. She was ecstatic to verify my hours (offered to) and also ecstatic to write me the letter. Seems strange that yours claimed they needed to know you on a personal level.

 

[Daniel M. Pitta]

In this case I would actually look elsewhere for a reference or do my best to accumulate enough hours (40? 60? 100?) to develop a close enough relationship with the PT.

Where am I finding the time to do this in my already very busy schedule?

 

[Daniel M. Pitta]

In my, probably unpopular, opinion it sounds to me like the PT just didn't want to write you a reference and made an excuse. The PT who wrote my letter I volunteered with for a little over a month, one shift per week, at about 6 hours. She was ecstatic to verify my hours (offered to) and also ecstatic to write me the letter. Seems strange that yours claimed they needed to know you on a personal level.

And so what am I to do about the fact that more than one PT has asked me to write my own? "Look elsewhere" is not a sufficient answer because it's not as if my time is unlimited. I can't force someone to write a LOR for me, regardless of how engaged I am when I am working or volunteering under them. I am curious to hear what you would do in my situation. Would you just not apply to DPT school at all if you can't find 4 people to commit to writing you letters of recommendation?

 

[Phyline]

Um, "busy schedule" is an excuse. Priorities. I mean, you're finding time to take prerequisite classes and work a job, you can find time to shadow if it's necessary. I've been up at 5am every day to ride the train for an hour to show up to the PT office 7-8:30am every day before going to work, haha. You gotta do what you gotta do!

Some of my references were happy to write me a letter after like 20h of shadowing, but I didn't take them up on it, because to me, 20h of contact is not convincing enough. And if a PT says they don't know me enough to write a letter, I'm not comfortable asking them for one (agreed with poster above) which is why I suggested looking elsewhere.

I hear you, I really do! Finding hours is hard, finding a LOR is even harder! Which is why when I was emailing places looking for shadowing, I immediately put it out there that I'm going to need a LOR and I planned for at least 40 hours with them in order to justify a LOR. Imagine yourself on an admissions committee - how credible do you think is a letter from someone who's known the applicant for two weeks 2-3 times a week? To reiterate, this is my personal opinion, and yours may vary

 

[Daniel M. Pitta]

Um, "busy schedule" is an excuse. Priorities. I mean, you're finding time to take prerequisite classes and work a job, you can find time to shadow if it's necessary. I've been up at 5am every day to ride the train for an hour to show up to the PT office 7-8:30am every day before going to work, haha. You gotta do what you gotta do!

Some of my references were happy to write me a letter after like 20h of shadowing, but I didn't take them up on it, because to me, 20h of contact is not convincing enough. And if a PT says they don't know me enough to write a letter, I'm not comfortable asking them for one (agreed with poster above) which is why I suggested looking elsewhere.

I hear you, I really do! Finding hours is hard, finding a LOR is even harder! Which is why when I was emailing places looking for shadowing, I immediately put it out there that I'm going to need a LOR and I planned for at least 40 hours with them in order to justify a LOR. Imagine yourself on an admissions committee - how credible do you think is a letter from someone who's known the applicant for two weeks 2-3 times a week? To reiterate, this is my personal opinion, and yours may vary

Thanks for sharing your opinion, it's much appreciated. Looks like I'm not the only one that has had trouble obtaining LOR's. People on this forum implying that said difficulty is somehow a negative indictment on me as a potential applicant, need not bother replying to the topic.

 

[Phyline]

I was really frustrated when the PT that agreed to let me volunteer for a long while and said she'll write a letter said flat out in the end - write it yourself. Wtf lady, you should have told me that when I came to meet you. I don't even like you and I spent so much time being nice to you. It was very obvious that she wanted nothing to do with it. I lucked out and USA dropped the second mandatory PT LOR from the requirements, but that kind of attitude alone tells me that I should not be using this person as a reference.

 

[redrose424]

And so what am I to do about the fact that more than one PT has asked me to write my own? "Look elsewhere" is not a sufficient answer because it's not as if my time is unlimited. I can't force someone to write a LOR for me, regardless of how engaged I am when I am working or volunteering under them. I am curious to hear what you would do in my situation. Would you just not apply to DPT school at all if you can't find 4 people to commit to writing you letters of recommendation?

It seems to me that something isn't right if more than one has asked you to write your own or who have claimed that they didn't know you on a "personal level." If I couldn't find 4 people to write me letters of recommendation then no, I wouldn't apply, because obviously I'm doing something that is turning people away from writing me one. I'm not saying that you shouldn't struggle to get recommendations, I think the whole process is frustrating (and, in my opinion, a little irrelevant), but I DO think its strange for a person to ask you to "just write your own" and I find it unprofessional. I had a professor who said he didn't know much about me, but he suggested I come in during office hours and he basically interviewed me to find information he needed for the recommendation. If I had performed poorly in his class or didn't make a somewhat positive impression on him then I'm sure he would have given me an excuse for why he couldn't take an hour or so out of his day. I find this to be an appropriate response for an individual who may not have enough information to write a complete recommendation, but simply asking you to write your own seems unprofessional.

 

[osupt]

And so what am I to do about the fact that more than one PT has asked me to write my own? "Look elsewhere" is not a sufficient answer because it's not as if my time is unlimited. I can't force someone to write a LOR for me, regardless of how engaged I am when I am working or volunteering under them. I am curious to hear what you would do in my situation. Would you just not apply to DPT school at all if you can't find 4 people to commit to writing you letters of recommendation?

I would ask them very politely to at least write something. The LOR's are just one data point, schools look at GPA's, work experience, GRE's, interviews...one or two generic LOR's should not be anything to worry about. The schools will see that you are busy and that you have good time management skills, but if a school found out that you wrote your own LOR, that could reflect really poorly

 

[starrsgirl]

I'm surprised (still) that people are shocked by being asked to write your own recommendation. This is EXTREMELY common in the workforce. Depending on how big your company is, your boss usually don't know you on such a level to write a top notch recommendation. For instance, I used to supervise and write performance reports on 30 people. Of course I knew them all, but I could never keep track of every important thing that each of them did. It would be a disservice to them to not ask for their input to a performance evaluation and for them to highlight their best work (ie similar to a recommendation). YOU are your own best advocate. I promise that many of these so called "good" recommendations that you think the person is writing for you are mostly form recommendations that say the same thing over and over. When you ask for a recommendation, be up front that you will provide a bulleted list of your accomplishments (not all of them, don't overwhelm them). Also for an open format letter like in PTCAS where they can write what they want, I suggest giving your writer some areas to focus on. "Could you focus on my ability to handle a stressful schedule, or my ability to work with patients, or my initiative.....and here are some ways that I directly demonstrated those things to you X, Y, Z". The PT you shadowed for cannot remember every instance and they will be grateful you kept a log and provided it to them at recommendation time.

In many cases, you won't develop a true personal relationship with the PT and that's OK. The goal is a professional one. It's OK if you don't have a million observation hours, many schools only require 50 or so. If you did those 50 hours at even 2 different locations, that's not a lot of contact time with a PT. But....if you go with bulleted list and some ideas for the PT, it gives them much more to write about and you will get a stronger reference in the end. Sell yourself!!! Gosh knows you will be asked to do it again at interview time. Be grateful for those people who ask you to write your own reference. This is a great skill you will carry with you for life....and a huge plus to your application.

(**Just to be clear as I feel there are some misunderstandings in this thread. When someone says "yes, I will give you a recommendation but please write your own", you aren't actually logging into PTCAS as them and typing it in. You basically write a draft copy and submit it to the recommender. The recommender may or may not edit the draft, in fact the final version may look very different. Or it won't at all. But by the recommender reviewing it, putting it in PTCAS and signing it, they are acknowledging that is their evaluation of you. Again, VERY common in the professional setting for anything from speech writing, to performance evaluations, to position papers, to company wide emails sent out by the boss.)

 

[osupt]

I had no idea this was so common...sorry guys didn't mean to shoot anyone down, I was just a little shocked hearing it at first.
http://fortune.com/2013/07/15/why-mbas-are-writing-their-own-recommendation-letters/

 

[ptisfun2]

I agree with those who say this is SOP. I have students draft a LOR all of the time, and send it, along with their resume to me before I meet with them to talk about a LOR. I edit and send. This is super common and I know at our school we don't even think about it. A LOR is a LOR.

I have written on more than one occasion here...when students do not get accepted and meet with me, one of the most frequent comments I give them is, 'Make sure you have people write letters that can speak to all of your strengths.' They assure me they have excellent LOR; I am looking at their application when I am speaking with them, and I am trying to subtly tell them that is one reason they were not accepted. If you can help control a referee speaking to all of your strengths but drafting it out, why wouldn't you?

 

[starrsgirl]

I have written on more than one occasion here...when students do not get accepted and meet with me, one of the most frequent comments I give them is, 'Make sure you have people write letters that can speak to all of your strengths.' They assure me they have excellent LOR; I am looking at their application when I am speaking with them, and I am trying to subtly tell them that is one reason they were not accepted. If you can help control a referee speaking to all of your strengths but drafting it out, why wouldn't you?

Wonderful point! Although I have never been on a PT admissions committee, I have been in various positions of hiring and evaluating candidates for other fields and I saw the same thing! Maybe it seems like a "great" LOR to you because they used positive words, but if it's not personal, if I don't get a really good picture of the candidate from the paper, if it doesn't differentiate you from other candidates (everyone is a "hard worker, reliable and caring"), if it doesn't quantify and provide evidence for your work/character....it's not a good LOR and I treated it like such.

 

[Daniel M. Pitta]

I'm surprised (still) that people are shocked by being asked to write your own recommendation. This is EXTREMELY common in the workforce. Depending on how big your company is, your boss usually don't know you on such a level to write a top notch recommendation. For instance, I used to supervise and write performance reports on 30 people. Of course I knew them all, but I could never keep track of every important thing that each of them did. It would be a disservice to them to not ask for their input to a performance evaluation and for them to highlight their best work (ie similar to a recommendation). YOU are your own best advocate. I promise that many of these so called "good" recommendations that you think the person is writing for you are mostly form recommendations that say the same thing over and over. When you ask for a recommendation, be up front that you will provide a bulleted list of your accomplishments (not all of them, don't overwhelm them). Also for an open format letter like in PTCAS where they can write what they want, I suggest giving your writer some areas to focus on. "Could you focus on my ability to handle a stressful schedule, or my ability to work with patients, or my initiative.....and here are some ways that I directly demonstrated those things to you X, Y, Z". The PT you shadowed for cannot remember every instance and they will be grateful you kept a log and provided it to them at recommendation time.

In many cases, you won't develop a true personal relationship with the PT and that's OK. The goal is a professional one. It's OK if you don't have a million observation hours, many schools only require 50 or so. If you did those 50 hours at even 2 different locations, that's not a lot of contact time with a PT. But....if you go with bulleted list and some ideas for the PT, it gives them much more to write about and you will get a stronger reference in the end. Sell yourself!!! Gosh knows you will be asked to do it again at interview time. Be grateful for those people who ask you to write your own reference. This is a great skill you will carry with you for life....and a huge plus to your application.

(**Just to be clear as I feel there are some misunderstandings in this thread. When someone says "yes, I will give you a recommendation but please write your own", you aren't actually logging into PTCAS as them and typing it in. You basically write a draft copy and submit it to the recommender. The recommender may or may not edit the draft, in fact the final version may look very different. Or it won't at all. But by the recommender reviewing it, putting it in PTCAS and signing it, they are acknowledging that is their evaluation of you. Again, VERY common in the professional setting for anything from speech writing, to performance evaluations, to position papers, to company wide emails sent out by the boss.)

Finally someone who understands the situation...great post.