Kirby - Game Thread

[Boquise]

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man this really shows that my weakness as a player is that i dont push hard enough on stuff and consider way too many factors.

 

[Boquise]

If the point you are trying to make is 'Why does the tie break vote' get less credit than the vote swing or Dina's vote, then I think I assess it like so:
Pippy's vote > Your vote > Dina's vote, where Dina is the most likely busser.

I fundamentally disagree on that but whatevs

 

[DrWilgy]

And Pippy's vote did not stay on the counterwagon.
My point is that your vca is flawed.

Break it down for me clearly Boq.

You advise that your vote shouldn't be assessed as a bus vote based on VCA, where Pippy's and Dina's should?

From your perspective doesn't it make the most sense for the busser to just be Dina as W Pippy would have most likely stayed on Mayo?

I agree with you that a team with Dina makes more sense if that's the case.

 

[DrWilgy]

yeet Dina

 

[JaggedJimmyJay]

yeah like i understand your town pov too if you are town. The pieces point to scum motivation too however

I get it.

I think my best answer is that, like you said about yourself, I probably don’t waffle around my read or concede it if I am mafia. I pick a lane and stick with it.

I recognize the wifom and won’t belabor the point.

 

[JaggedJimmyJay]

The problem is, JJJ, that town are usually super paranoid about my takes and cant get over how I both can be razor sharp with some reads but also flip-flop, despite my reasoning being purely logical. Scum however, super understand where I am coming from, which makes it logically difficult for them to even push me, because they see how my pov makes sense and just... That's hard to start battling tbh

So this kinda sucks if you are town, because it would be such a rare reaction

I know your soul. And I see you. And I forgive you. *lays hand on shoulder*

 

[Boquise]

Break it down for me clearly Boq.

You advise that your vote shouldn't be assessed as a bus vote based on VCA, where Pippy's and Dina's should?

From your perspective doesn't it make the most sense for the busser to just be Dina as W Pippy would have most likely stayed on Mayo?

I agree with you that a team with Dina makes more sense if that's the case.

No, I actually think that Pippy's vote make her town. I don't limit my clears to a quota.
What I am combatting is people sleeping into "lmao boq's vote is a bus vote". I have been sussed today for "likely bus" but no one has provided any rationale or explaining why I am the likeliest bus. I just am. No one has been interested in the posts I have made that is about my approach yesterday, nor has anyone, when trying to push me, used my own posts. Genny has failed at describing my wolf agenda, you have failed at explaining why my vote is wolfy from a vca perspective.

Which is good. Second part of my job as town is to demonstrate why I am town and I can't expect anyone to do that for me tbh

 

[Boquise]

I get it.

I think my best answer is that, like you said about yourself, I probably don’t waffle around my read or concede it if I am mafia. I pick a lane and stick with it.

I recognize the wifom and won’t belabor the point.

I know your soul. And I see you. And I forgive you. *lays hand on shoulder*

it is super hard to not see this as you pocketing me and you also know that pocketing is super effective against me gaaaaaaaaah

 

[JaggedJimmyJay]

it is super hard to not see this as you pocketing me and you also know that pocketing is super effective against me gaaaaaaaaah

I just speak from the heart, Boquise. I don't even ask that you change your read. I am not terribly fussed with it right now. We talk about it after the game instead if you prefer.

 

[JaggedJimmyJay]

POE
B. Boquise, esquire
Genny
samac
zenge
Dr Wilgy
Mayo
Mothy
Pippy
Nate
Mighty
Moon
JJJ
Dina

I don't agree with your mayo clear but otherwise this seems fine. I agree with your vibe read on mothy. I might have other nitpicks, but I will complete my interaction reviews before I bother with all that. This is why I am okay with the situation even as a certified POE Citizen. I think this game might solve itself as long as people keep their heads on straight. There aren't a ton of viable candidates, at least as I currently see things.

 

[Boquise]

is ok tbh

all i can do is play with an open door to my brain. Or at least ajar.
If I get misyeeted after all this it is both on me and the rest of town who vote me.

Which is fine.
It is fine.
jsdncsdhvuvh

I also want to show scum that I am not some yeet fodder that will calmly go over.

 

[Boquise]

I don't agree with your mayo clear but otherwise this seems fine. I agree with your vibe read on mothy. I might have other nitpicks, but I will complete my interaction reviews before I bother with all that. This is why I am okay with the situation even as a certified POE Citizen. I think this game might solve itself as long as people keep their heads on straight. There aren't a ton of viable candidates, at least as I currently see things.

hmm maybe calmly going over is the play then tbh
why dont you agree with the mayo clear


i am going to play video games tbh

 

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Mayo is imo spewed town due to how his wagon kept competing against Dubz' for a long time. I don't think Dubz tried that hard making people not vote Mayo either.

I just think this is too generous, and it doesn't consider the reading card dynamics of this place. Given PSV's existing suspicion of Dubz, once Zenge also threw a vote down that Dubz wagon was going to take off. So I'm not sure the mayo wagon even mattered that much even when it was still populated. These folks diligently follow the leader with these tight meta reads, and I mean no disrespect in that. It can work beautifully, and it did here.

 

[Animal Midwife]

Day 2 Yeet Tally
Wilgy (1) - Pippy 3
Boq (1) - samac 7
Dina (2) - Boq 30, Wilgy 19
mighty (1) - moon 11

5/13
yeet close in ~33 hours

 

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Dubz/Dina interactions

Dubz on Dina:

Spoiler

DEEEEEEEEENA!

village
wolf
village
village
village

Village lite, village, wolfy, neutral, village, wolfy, neutral

Nothing. Town read GTH and neutral read when asked to share takes on her own voters.

Dina on Dubz:

Spoiler

hi dubz

yeet dubz

seems fun

it's kinda rare that dubz gets yeeted let alone pushed early. This doesn't really fit what you're asking but me and someone else tried to push her incorrectly in CYO II (?) (it was one of the choose your owns)

she bussed a packmate in her recent wolf game, but dubz was sussing her earlier today, so based on interactions seems less likely for them to be w/w

I don't understand why you're voting dubz then

Do you find pippy/dubz compatible though?

what are your thoughts on dubz voting pippy and scum reading her?

There's essentially nothing to discuss until the end of Day 1. Dina was the last of seven voters on Dubz. That's worth no credit. It doesn't have to be a bus; the vote on its own power strikes me as "rand". I think it was Dina's only vote of the day. The rest of the posts make me feel mostly nothing. I could theorize a mafia agenda if I wanted to (e.g., trying to tie Boq and/or I to Dubz with the EOD questions about his vote or my jumbling of the Dubz/mothy/Pippy dynamic). I don't have much confidence that this is a good case, so I kinda shrug.

Conclusion

I have no reason to remove Dina from the POE on this basis. I kinda have no idea.

 

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I recall that PSV believed that mothy was independently suspicious and that she fit with Dubz, so I won't lose that in the midst of vibe reads.

 

[mightyrunner7]

I'm going to open today with:

Yeet JJJ

The two key data points that have occured overnight were Dubz turning scum and PSV getting chomped. Neither of those items immediately grant JJJ village points, so I'm going to start off with reiterating this position until I do some more analysis

 

[mightyrunner7]

Fair warning - I flew into Chicago this morning for work and will do my best to monitor threadstate, but please don't expect any real analysis until I get to my hotel tonight

 

[moonstermash]

Okay, let me try to reconstruct my EOD into post-EOD JJJ thoughts. I'll start from memory, then pull posts later. (Hopefully none of this is wrong, but c'est la vie, I can't keep working on this monster.)

So, like I mentioned briefly in my EOD posts, while I was catching up on reading (I think I'd missed 4-5 hours at least before I posted again), mayo had been rising from null to a town-lean, and JJJ had been falling as a town-lean to more null. It may have been a function of mayo having time to actually play, vs JJJ being limited by running into the post cap, but to a degree I think mayo was doing more with less, and JJJ was doing less with more. I was especially concerned that JJJ's game, while personally helpful in sorting my own thoughts on players, didn't necessarily yield data that overall was super-helpful. And the way JJJ talked about the data didn't make it seem like he thought it was that helpful at the time, either, which concerned me. I was worried it was an attempt to look townie and throw noise into the thread, especially if it was something he did a lot, because it's fairly easy to replicate regardless of alignment, and it seemed like he should have a better sense of what to conclude from the data if he'd done it 20-30 times.

Then, near twilight, mayo and JJJ have a back-and-forth (although honestly I've forgotten about what exactly - Dubz and JJJ's read there?), and reading along, I'm firmly on mayo's side, I think he's making a lot of good points. JJJ has some points, too, but they don't seem as solid, especially since I wasn't scum reading Dubz, and her wagon in general had basically happened entirely while I was away, so TBH I didn't fully understand it.

Then, post-flip, I go, "Oh, wow - JJJ was right, mayo was wrong, dang." Even though JJJ had previously been wrong about Dubz, his about-turn at EOD and reading the game state as Dubz wolf now seemed on the money, instead of being weird. (And yes, of course it occurred to me that this could be because they're packmates, but there's some other interactions near EOD that didn't feel that way, at least from JJJ's side.) FMPOV, I feel like JJJ is a good kill based on EOD and his reputation - not fully understanding the Dubz wagon, I hadn't noticed the extent that other people drove it (I had seen some "PSV/Zenge cleared if Dubz wolf," though).

The way I ended up clearing PSV as town for myself was actually thinking back to the "there's a wolf on Pippy's wagon" conversation from earlier in D1, and remembering that Dubz had been involved as a questioner, and feeling that it was more likely to be a t/w interaction between them and/or that Dubz was maybe the only wolf involved there? At least for the part of the conversation I really tracked. I'll just dump the quotes I collected, I've been trying to add some commentary, but now it feels really stale and I'm low energy (yay, anemia):

Spoiler: "wolf on Pippy's wagon" quote collection

I'd bet there's a wolf on Pippy right now.

Would you like to be more specific?

Who do you think is the most likely howler?

No, I meant with the finger-pointing. A one in three chance of hitting a wolf seems pretty high, right?

But it's not really 1 in 3. PSV's reasoning was that the vote built with little substantiation, so I think that excuses the vote starter (Zenge). He wasn't really the cause of the vote building, especially since he hasn't done any pushing beyond the initial vote

@potentialsheltervet, between genny and DrWilgy, who would you view as the more sus? Or was I wrong and you actually would pick Zenge out of the 3?

Including the scenario that Pippy is a wolf? Or only in a Village!Pippy world?

Genny.

Only the latter, which is how I am currently interpreting events.

What makes you village read pippy? Any reason you’re wolf reading genny other than the Pippy vote?

so you’re village reading Samac then?

So I get what you’re getting at here, feels too easy. But ya know what felt too easy last game? Visc.

I doubt all three wolves were involved here; kinda tempted to soft-clear everyone else (genny, Zenge, samac, mighty), but especially genny. I wouldn't duplicate a buddy's efforts just to look towny, which is what Dubz would have been doing. (But then I'm not that good a wolf, either, especially on forums/in new environments. See S8SCI for meta there if you care/have time.)

And then, having felt that JJJ was towny and could die overnight, I reread the first five pages until sleep hygiene time, looking at Dubz interactions and JJJ comments especially. In hindsight I suppose I may have confbiased myself a bit on JJJ, in both directions.

@holdthemayo Does this help? I'll still pull posts/link some stuff from JJJ (and #1,333 is where I pulled some stuff on you), but I need a break first.

 

[mightyrunner7]

Vote mighty

Based on this (and a quick ISO to check for myself):

I'll agree that my last 2 hours of content were mostly fluffy nonsense to get my postcount up. I personally would grade myself around average in terms of meaningful posts/contributions. I just hope you did a full ISO and were not overly swayed by my last 15 posts

 

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Dubz/mothy interactions

Dubz on mothy:

Spoiler

Eh it just didn't inspire me. I read the things. They just seemed like...mothy things. She's got 4 votes already. It's boring.

And my Pippy vote is based on two posts and multigame background research, thank you very much.

village
wolf
village
village
village

@potentialsheltervet how confident are you in your mothy read?

Anyway

Not actually interested in the Nate vote, just wanted to see what would happen if I moved there. Results...unexpected, particularly no one even asking me about it lol

I wanted to give some more thought to mothy if PSV felt strongly there, but with her being unsure I'm leaning on my own read. Still think moth is just noob village.

Think I'm almost at post cap now so uh guess if this is still a thing I'll muster the energy for yeet armor at EOD.

unyeet Nate yeet pippy

I enjoy that you're only 50/50 on your mothy read, but it's a major foundation for your read on me. Cool cool.

I typed this post while in a worse mood, but I owe it to my past!self to post it

Oh my god. I literally didn't shade Jay. I presented reasoning and voted for Pippy. And I directly confronted samac about her different behavior this game. That's not bits of shade. At all.

The mothy thing was what you originally questioned me about, so it seemed like that was your foundation. I get there is more to it now, but that's how it started so that's why I mentioned it.

I don't really blame you for feeling worse here, because Zenge voting for me has a lot of pull, and when he was eventually wrong on me I didn't expect to survive it. I get that. It just...has thrown me off guard because I have been trying hard to solve and have been more engaged because I have had more time than I've had in months. So you guys seeing the opposite is ?_? from my perspective. I don't get it.

To that end I'm kind of like...idk. On the verge of just shrugging. It feels like I'm being stonewalled because Zenge has made up his mind and moved on to packmate analysis before I've even flipped. It doesn't feel like I'm really being heard at all, or given one iota of consideration for him being wrong. Might as well rip off the bandaid and move on.

There are some interesting moments here. When mothy was a wagon (4 votes), Dubz had not commented on it. PSV noticed, asked/accused, and Dubz's reply was the first post in the spoiler. PSV felt this might imply Dubz was protecting mothy (by directing attention to Pippy instead). I cannot really speak to that, but it's a valid possibility.

The orange things stand out. Dubz asked PSV for a confidence level about reading mothy as mafia. PSV responded "50/50, but it's roughly the best I have". Dubz took the "50/50" part of that and went with it, expressing she would have looked more into mothy, but not if PSV is only that confident. That's not a great look for mothy. PSV is being given an unreasonable burden of confidence on Day 1, and Dubz used that as an excuse to not only avoid the mothy wagon, but to not bother even taking a look.

mothy on Dubz:

Spoiler

Reason I’m not going for Dubz (atm): PSV came out hard on me, and Dubz pointed out that these are just mothy things. I think if Dubz was wolf, I would be an easy D1 target and she woulda jumped on me.

That being said, I’m feeling sus about PSV. Something just feels wrong about how sure she was of me, now she’s at 50/50, and I don’t think she’s really done much more hunting aside from just calling me out.

So either PSV is a wolf and Dubz isn’t involved, or both are wolves.

I’m leaning towards Dubz being village atm.

I mean a trend emerges here.

Dubz town read mothy, at least in part, because PSV wasn't confident enough about suspecting mothy.

mothy town read Dubz because PSV suspected her and Dubz defended her.

PSV is being blamed on both sides of this dialogue for their respective town reads, and now PSV is dead. I don't think that means nothing, and it should be discussed.

Conclusion

There are concerns here. I don't pretend it's some kind of slam dunk, but I think there's good enough reason to view this doubt that vibe reading mothy as "noob town" is not good enough at this stage of play.

 

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm going to open today with:

Yeet JJJ

The two key data points that have occured overnight were Dubz turning scum and PSV getting chomped. Neither of those items immediately grant JJJ village points, so I'm going to start off with reiterating this position until I do some more analysis

Ready for some wifom??? Here it comes!!! Right down the hatch!!!

[I don't kill the only person stumping hard for me in the game. The wifom is dumb. This kind of rationale always gets ignored in Mafia games and it will probably get ignored in this one, but it's valid and should be considered. Even if nobody cares in this match, think of it next time.]

 

[holdthemayo]

Then, post-flip, I go, "Oh, wow - JJJ was right, mayo was wrong, dang." Even though JJJ had previously been wrong about Dubz, his about-turn at EOD and reading the game state as Dubz wolf now seemed on the money, instead of being weird. (And yes, of course it occurred to me that this could be because they're packmates, but there's some other interactions near EOD that didn't feel that way, at least from JJJ's side.) FMPOV, I feel like JJJ is a good kill based on EOD and his reputation - not fully understanding the Dubz wagon, I hadn't noticed the extent that other people drove it (I had seen some "PSV/Zenge cleared if Dubz wolf," though).


@holdthemayo Does this help? I'll still pull posts/link some stuff from JJJ (and #1,333 is where I pulled some stuff on you), but I need a break first.

Not really. Especially the bolded part. How was JJJ right? How was I wrong? He was village reading Dubz and vice versa. I was wolf reading Dubz and vice versa.

By the time he begrudgingly conceded, it was very clear that Dubz was going down.

It ultimately doesn't matter, as I think I understand why you came to that conclusion now. I just think you interpreted the EOD very differently than I and others did.

 

[holdthemayo]

Ready for some wifom??? Here it comes!!! Right down the hatch!!!

[I don't kill the only person stumping hard for me in the game. The wifom is dumb. This kind of rationale always gets ignored in Mafia games and it will probably get ignored in this one, but it's valid and should be considered. Even if nobody cares in this match, think of it next time.]

I agree with you. The day ended with the entire game convinced Zenge and PSV were village. Zenge is the nominee so he wasn't realistically going to be the N1 kill.

I think most of us assume PSV was killed for being the most villagery villager who wasn't a nominee.

Though like I said earlier, NK analysis is often useless. Packs do things for weird reasons sometimes.

 

[samac]

What do others think of Samac re Dubz here?

This view seemed important to me as Samac pointing out that the Dubz wagon had resistance is what kept me from jumping from the wagon in paranoia. It very much settled the fear that Dubz was just an out of control wagon and thus I think it's likely T and can write Samac off as not bussing.

I don’t quite understand why it’s even worth talking about me tbh. Seems like an easy thing to do to make posts about town reading me based on this or that, I changed my vote to dubz in like 5 seconds after zenge voted

I think Samac has been genuine with liking me and town reading me despite generally eating n00bs. I think I did mention somewhere (perhaps only in my brain) that something did feel different to me about Dubz this game compared to the only other game I played with her. I don’t think there was any bussing with Samac—I think Samac genuinely wanted to take a chance at yeeting Dubz even if it resulted in a misyeet.

Above, noise

care to share with class why you are hmming at this post? @samac @DrWilgy

I don’t remember. I something just react to things as I read.

gth i kinda wanna say that this is a good look for samac?

Noise

Dubz/mothy interactions

Dubz on mothy:

There are some interesting moments here. When mothy was a wagon (4 votes), Dubz had not commented on it. PSV noticed, asked/accused, and Dubz's reply was the first post in the spoiler. PSV felt this might imply Dubz was protecting mothy (by directing attention to Pippy instead). I cannot really speak to that, but it's a valid possibility.

The orange things stand out. Dubz asked PSV for a confidence level about reading mothy as mafia. PSV responded "50/50, but it's roughly the best I have". Dubz took the "50/50" part of that and went with it, expressing she would have looked more into mothy, but not if PSV is only that confident. That's not a great look for mothy. PSV is being given an unreasonable burden of confidence on Day 1, and Dubz used that as an excuse to not only avoid the mothy wagon, but to not bother even taking a look.

mothy on Dubz:


I mean a trend emerges here.

Dubz town read mothy, at least in part, because PSV wasn't confident enough about suspecting mothy.

mothy town read Dubz because PSV suspected her and Dubz defended her.

PSV is being blamed on both sides of this dialogue for their respective town reads, and now PSV is dead. I don't think that means nothing, and it should be discussed.

Conclusion

There are concerns here. I don't pretend it's some kind of slam dunk, but I think there's good enough reason to view this doubt that vibe reading mothy as "noob town" is not good enough at this stage of play.

I gotta say I don’t know the last time a noob wolf completely got off my noob wolf radar and I’m going to be very impressed if she is wolf.

 

[DrWilgy]

I don’t quite understand why it’s even worth talking about me tbh. Seems like an easy thing to do to make posts about town reading me based on this or that, I changed my vote to dubz in like 5 seconds after zenge voted

I mean, in a world where I'm looking at just a neutral Samac without posts the 2nd vote on Dubz when there was a 3/3/3 split COULD be interpreted as a noncommittal vote, while I don't think that was the case, I do still think that it's important to parse evidence that points to why I don't think that was the case and have curiosities related to how others perceive it.

That post exclusively stood out to me to the point of me remembering it this morning upon realizing we were both still alive.

 

[genny]

Genny has failed at describing my wolf agenda

I haven’t even tried yet eesh. I don’t like rereading while on mobile, so it’s going to have to wait until tonight when I can get to my laptop.

 

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I'm a bit bugged out by moonster town reading me. Her conclusions about me are broadly correct from the standpoint of motivation, but I frankly thought [nearly] everyone in this thread outside PSV was going to hate me today.

I don't know what to do with that.

 

[genny]

I don't know what to do with that.

Lawperize that, stat!!!

 

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Though like I said earlier, NK analysis is often useless. Packs do things for weird reasons sometimes.

I understand that view, and most people hold it. I tend to think it is underused, however, and this broad assumption frees mafia to do whatever they want with any kill.

I actually think night kills reveal more than votes reveal, but folks have to be brave enough to venture down wifom lane. Few people are.

I realize nobody cares right now, and I am largely wasting a post to even say this. But it's something that interests me from a theory perspective, and maybe it can be a dialogue after the game with whoever feels like it. I think a lot of these presuppositions folks have about the game are backwards.

 

[genny]

I'm a bit bugged out by moonster town reading me

Also this is not the impression I got from the post I read.

 

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Also this is not the impression I got from the post I read.

I'm referring to moonster's initial impressions of me today.

 

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Dubz/mighty interactions

Dubz on mighty:

Spoiler

Okay, finally caught up.

I'm not a huge fan of the massive Dubz wagon. If JJJ put a gun to my head, I'm give a village read, but in reality I'd say neutral.

It really feels like people are piling on Dubz due to Zenge's read. Wow, I almost have Deja Vu from this morning... Why are we giving Zenge so much power? I don't think this is AI for Zenge either way, I'm just more questioning everyone else for blindly following along.

Honestly, the only person on the Dubz wagon who truly feels authentic is PSV, since she has been consistently hinting at this read all game

I apologize if this is too meta but... why should I care? Put simply, this game is intended to prepare for champs, which I understand to be an elite game among players who have never really interacted before.

Relaying overly on Zenges card feels like a cheat, regardless of Dubz true alignment. I welcome Zenge to find a read on Dubz based on past gameplay or tone or his own personal voodoo, but I would also expect everyone else to need a bit more convincing to join along, especially since the JJJ test showed a very different read of Dubz, and she didn't do much since then to play differently.

I doubt Zenge would intentionally misyeet Dubz, so I'm not giving him any wolf points, I'm just surprised at how quickly everyone else (except you PSV) jumped on.

Maybe this is a function of catching up, but 7 votes out of a village of 15 seems like a large wagon, especially since the next leader only has 3

Regarding Zenge, I expanded on my thoughts on him in another post, but the TLDR is I trust that he believes dubz is sus, I just don't put enough stock in his card to join along without more reasoning.

Okay, I see Moon has also joined the Dubz hesitancy group, but that was made after Samac's my post, so I'll discount it as meaningful resistance.

3 out of my 5 games have been played with Dubz. In those games, she has been either 3P or village. Honestly, I don't see any difference in play regarding those games and this one, so I read her the same until I get more evidence

I think my personal read on PSV is fairly dependent on how Dubz turns (assuming nobody starts moving votes), since she has been one of the first wolf!Dubz advocates

Never underestimate the power of the last 10 minutes

The noteworthy thing here is that mighty voiced a town read of Dubz and doubts about the wagon when it had swelled to size. I don't think that's a "problem" necessarily, and from the standpoint of typical-wolf-behavior, initiating this kind of view while your partner is getting slaughtered would be atypical. The only counterpoint would be the last post there, in which mighty implies that the vote can still be moved to someone else (me I believe in this context) in the last ten minutes. So, sure I guess. I don't think this looks that bad overall.

Spoiler

Did you read my posts about my vote? I did have reasoning beyond just following Zenge (though that did contribute).

He didn't vote for you immediately though. Iirc he held his vote until the second irl day of the first elimination cycle, and you weren't his first vote either. Plus your wagon did already exist before he voted there, he was the third vote.

So in that way vote behavior isn't actually that different, but interesting that you're saying it is and using that as justification for a vote.

What would you expect of a village!Jay this game then?

Okay, not convinced you actually read my posts then, because there's a third and important point about her misrepresenting Zenge's history of reading her. And I said in that post it wasn't 100% about Zenge having a decent ability to read her, but about the attempt to discredit it.

I can see why you would interpret her flipping her read on Jay differently since you're wolf-reading him, but it's less about that and more about how that post felt. More about the [Sporty voice] tone.

Not saying you have to agree because that's whatever, but it's disingenuous to represent the wagon as entirely existing because of following Zenge.

How dare

These are all direct responses to mighty. This stuff looks generally unaligned, as Dubz both shaded mighty for "not actually reading my posts" and being "disingenuous", and also kept on her DEFENSIVE SMEAR CAMPAIGN to make ME look like her TEAMMATE (in response to his suspicions).

Conclusion:

I think the more telling posts come from Dubz, and they reflect well on mighty. He's not a suspect for me today.

 

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Oh by the way, thanks @samac for interacting with that big wall I posted about Dubz when I post-capped yesterday. It got stuck at the bottom of a page, and I think was either overlooked or ignored by quite literally everyone else. That was frustrating and I appreciated that you took a look at it.

No slight intended on anyone else.

 

[moonstermash]

Dubz/Nate interactions

Dubz on Nate:


This is kind of fascinating. Dubz was the only person in the GTH exercise to call Nate town. Then she went on this little excursion to vote and unvote Nate "to see what would happen". There's a lot of wifom in that, but I think it might be a good thing for Nate? Given that Nate was a 5-1 mafia read in the GTHs, perhaps Dubz thought he would be the obvious choice to pursue a miss-vote. When it didn't catch on, she walked it back and gave the "reaction test" excuse. I grant that's speculative, but I kinda feel it. Maybe. Other perspectives greatly appreciated here.

Nate on Dubz:


Not a whole lot on this side. I highlighted the sentence that strikes me as most interpretable, but I don't actually have an interpretation for it beyond "ehhh?" So this is pointless. It's decent to voice some doubt about Dubz, I suppose, even if the broader explanation was about doubting samac instead.

Conclusion:

This is most interesting from the Dubz side of the equation. I think it might be a good thing for Nate. I would still probably POE him just because there's wifom all over that judgment, but he might not be my highest priority today. I would greatly appreciate external views about this one.

I think the big post of Nate's you pulled is decently towny on its own, and I agree that Dubz' vote and take back on Nate would be weird if they're paired. (Not for cred, not early enough to be an RVS hello, felt the need to explain the unvote and it comes off a little awkwardly self-conscious.) The only thing that gives me pause on this (and Nate in general) is the lack of content, but hopefully that will be solved today (even if I'm curious what ~things~ would happen otherwise).

Also, your highlight of Nate's sentence may have been eaten, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there. Is it this: "Of the other people active on the first few pages I felt least good about samac and Dubz, for reasons that I don't know if I have a solid explanation for yet"? Because I can see how it could be interpreted as "throwing a buddy's name out to distance, but not too hard," but I liked the (admittedly meta) explanation for the samac sus. I also liked that he didn't avoid reading samac due to plot armor, which would be easier for wolves to do, I feel (especially busy ones).

Overall, you may be right not to move him out of the POE based on Dubz interactions, especially since you don't weigh voting/VCA that heavily. I wouldn't put him on today's priority list, either, though - he'll either post more and hopefully be findable that way, or the aforementioned ~things~ will transpire.

 

[moonstermash]

 

[JaggedJimmyJay]

Also, your highlight of Nate's sentence may have been eaten, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there. Is it this: "Of the other people active on the first few pages I felt least good about samac and Dubz, for reasons that I don't know if I have a solid explanation for yet"? Because I can see how it could be interpreted as "throwing a buddy's name out to distance, but not too hard," but I liked the (admittedly meta) explanation for the samac sus. I also liked that he didn't avoid reading samac due to plot armor, which would be easier for wolves to do, I feel (especially busy ones).

Yes, it was that sentence. I highlighted it in green, but sometimes I think this forum doesn't allow you to expand posts to full view (not sure why, I am still learning the interface ropes myself). I have no gripe about his read on samac, and I might not gripe with the comment in general. It just seemed like there might be something to chew on it that bit even if I didn't know what (someone else might) -- primarily the more off-hand mention of Dubz by comparison to samac. Dunno if that's good or bad or anything, so I acknowledge I have nothing to say about this really lol

 

[supershorty]

sometimes I think this forum doesn't allow you to expand posts to full view

It does this with quotes sometimes, if that's what you mean, but you can usually tell when it's doing that and hitting refresh solves it IME

 

[Zenge142]

Yeah. Especially because I’m not using the reading card. My reasoning was based almost entirely on something someone else said. Could be right wolf wrong reason? Could be wrong villager wrong reason? We’re flying blind here.

@samac Im surprised you didn’t ask me about this the moment thread opened

 

[moonstermash]

Ah, I see where maybe the difference in views between me and other people on EOD is coming from - I straight-up misremembered a big chunk of what was happening. It was the back-and-forth where JJJ and mayo sussed each other; Dubz only played a minor role. Still, I was agreeing more with mayo's posts. IDK how I feel about it now, though. I'm sure I could confbias in any direction - t/t, t/w, w/w (okay, maybe not the last one).

Spoiler: no commentary, just quotes for posterity

Okay some immediate takes as I have watched the thread since I hit the cap:

~ Boquise is probably my top town read in the game. Never eliminate him. Before he went to Swedish sleep, when he was expressing his trepidations about the Dubz vote, he was basically writing my posts for me.

~ I get the sense from the thread state that the Dubz wagon is correct, and that my town read was incorrect. So be it if so. I hope that's the case.

~ Both Pippy and mayo have been signal-boosting the Zenge theory that I am also mafia if Dubz is mafia, and that makes me think one or both of them are actually teammates of Dubz. That they both arrived at hard Dubz suspicion AFTER the mega-wagon showed up is just highly dubious to me. I cannot imagine they both arrived at that perspective honestly and independently. Between them, I find mayo considerably more suspicious. I got a sense that Pippy might just be stuck in confirmation bias about me.

Too many SDN brains glomming onto that realm, the history of Dubz wagons PSV was talking about, and the behavior of people that have arrived to the party late that look bussy to me.

I pushed you before Dubz was even on the menu. If you leave so many breadcrumbs, more than one pigeon will find them.

Between Pippy and mayo, I think mayo is significantly worse.

At most things, I would imagine

It's a high bar

Please don't do that. When people just dismiss combat in this way it is very frustrating. I haven't seen anything resembling a good reason to call mayo town in this game, and even if he isn't eliminated today I really don't want everything I've said to be thrown in the bin because it seems like a "knock it off and find a wolf" situation.

I mean if Dubz is mafia, mayo showing up this late in the game with a literal "strong ping" about Dubz AND MY GTH reads is just absolutely awful to me. That is the definition of opportunism.

If Dubz is town then ignore this gripe

I don't think they have been good content. I think they have signal boosted existing reads and are do not strike me as original or authentic. They might "look like" decent posts, but the material in them doesn't fit the bill for me.

I acknowledge that I am in a tunnel. Sometimes that's appropriate. We don't have to eliminate mayo right now, and that's okay. But as the game moves on I seriously don't want him to continue earning town credit for such frivolities.

@holdthemayo whatever your alignment, please pardon my rage-posts. I am letting the inner demons out a bit to recapture some lost town edge, but I am trying not be a complete jerk.

To be fair, I literally wasn't playing until today. Any pitch is going to be late. It's part of why I've avoided just voting and piling on the wagon until I catch up and can make a fully informed decision. Instead of just sheeping the wagon.

I've found that poetry can help

I don't understand mayo's read on samac.

"samac seemd to be her town self by page 5"
"samac doesn't normally decline to make strong reads"
"that seems more like mafia samac in general, but maybe she is more willing to be that way in the practice game with plot armor"

I am working on memory here and might not be portraying these posts perfectly. I just want to make the comment so that it can be discussed.

For what it's worth, there's a rich history of tunneling mayo and being wrong.

It's about 50/50 whether it's a wolf or a misguided villager. The latter tend to come around by D3.

I feel like you are reading my posts for the one line you think you can use, and then completely ignoring the rest

I suspect the SDN squad that wait until Day 3 to enter the tunnel do so because they don't think it's worth solving either way until about then.

But, yanno, I have little-to-no experience solving anyone in this game apart from DrWilgy.

What am I missing that would help me to make sense of your view of samac?

They exit the tunnel by D3... again with the reading

I misunderstood "come around"

I suspect that it's an inauthentic town read, yes. I felt that way from the first "town tingle" read, so I grant confirmation bias may be present. But I don't really understand the rationale of the read.

This is sort of my point. You are prejudging every post rather than openly reading them. If you really are a villager, I think if you take a deep breath and read a non-prejudged version what I've written since I joined the game, you'll feel differently.

I'm sus reading you as well, so if you are a frustrated wolf feel free to carry on

That post wasn't even meant to be one in which I express suspicion. I was just commenting blankly about the notion that people might tunnel you in some games and acknowledging that I have no background.

But you approached it with the assumption that the tunnel increased as they played, rather than the opposite. I think because you are frustrated with me (whether you are V or W)

I thought that's what you said. "They come around to tunneling me on Day 3". Just misunderstood what you said.

Depends upon whether the "reading card" thing is one-way or two-way. This idea seems more prevalent in this community than I tend to see anywhere else (save maybe Mafia 451), so I am not sure how to navigate it other than shrug.

I'm fine with the Dubz vote, but that wagon doesn't need me. I'll shift for self prez, but in the interest of having a vote on the board.

Yeet JJJJJJJJJ

Who have I sussed more than him?

Not to brag, but i started this interaction by calling out posts that pinged me. He's the one who got defensive about it.

Nothing in the interval has changed my mind.

Though @JaggedJimmyJay - I appreciate you saying nothing was personal. That goes both ways. I'm sus of you in the game, but like you and look forward to playing with you again (whatever happens this game).

I also found this post, which honestly IDK what the point of it is if JJJ/Dubz are buddies, because it seemed unlikely anything would move votes off Dubz, and it's just creating spew (or anti-spew? TBH I'm not clear on what that is) from Dubz:

@WildZoo could you please just give one or three words to say how you feel about the people on your wagon:

PSV, Zenge, samac, DrWilgy, Boq, Pippy, Dina

And Dubz' answer:

Village lite, village, wolfy, neutral, village, wolfy, neutral

But on its own I know this isn't a strong dissociation, either.

 

[moonstermash]

It does this with quotes sometimes, if that's what you mean, but you can usually tell when it's doing that and hitting refresh solves it IME

Oh yeah, haha, I see it now.

 

[samac]

@samac Im surprised you didn’t ask me about this the moment thread opened

I didn’t care much after the fact because she flipped wolf tbh

 

[moonstermash]

@JaggedJimmyJay Out of curiousity - are you planning on looking at interactions between Dubz/everyone? (Except yourself, I presume.)

 

[JaggedJimmyJay]

@JaggedJimmyJay Out of curiousity - are you planning on looking at interactions between Dubz/everyone? (Except yourself, I presume.)

I’d like to if time permits. Lowest priority to the most likely town (e.g., Zenge).

 

[samac]

Also just want to apologize to y’all, I’m not on my best game. I just haven’t felt well the last couple days and I’m having a hard time coming out of the funk. Hopefully will get my head in the game soon.

 

[genny]

@samac Im surprised you didn’t ask me about this the moment thread opened

What was the Something?

 

[Zenge142]

What was the Something?

I really felt JJJ was pushing me to read Dubz in a way that felt like “How are you reading my packmate???”

 

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I really felt JJJ was pushing me to read Dubz in a way that felt like “How are you reading my packmate???”

I wanted to know how you felt, because PSV already suspected Dubz and adding you to that equation would have been important to me. And it was in the end.

 

[samac]

I really felt JJJ was pushing me to read Dubz in a way that felt like “How are you reading my packmate???”

What were the differences between his and my pushes for your dubz read

 

[JaggedJimmyJay]

The game is dead. Is it just folks at work? I mean no offense to those who’ve had no time. I just want to make sure we remain engaged. It could be coming this evening; hopefully so.