Lacking challenge, frustrated

[Critical Mass]

k so I've gotten the hang of tests and now things are going too smoothly near the end of 1st year...Skipping every class except mandatory ones and not doing any EC activities (I mean like EC ECs). I don't get much out of lectures, and the ppts alone are sufficient+faster. Granted I avg low 80s on tests which isn't spectacular, but who cares about yr 1+2 grades anyway. Been keeping up with First Aid and planning to do well on step 1 as well as the wards.

HOWEVER I feel like this is an unproductive way of living and I sincerely wish there were either online med schools or 3 year accelerated options. Doesn't Duke do 1 yr basic sciences? Why aren't 3 yr schools in existence?

I have to comment because much of the part that I quoted applies to me as well. I don't play video games, drink heavily, or watch anime; but I do have a job.

As much as I agree that M1/2 grades aren't that important, I recognize that my lack of devotion to my studies could in fact lead to a low step 1 contrary to my best laid plans. So while I do submit to my lack of drive, I also feel the need to work harder, not just to do well on step 1 but also because it might have an impact on patient contact down the road.

I guess that some people may enjoy drinking and playing video games while others would rather spend time with family/friends, so I suppose I can certainly advocate spending time on things that are important to you.

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[Yachtclub]

already maxing 250+ on bench and iq good enough for mensa so no probs there.

Dude, aren't you the one who said "Docs come in to talk to us all the time and say the 3 things that matter for docs are affability, availability and ability in that order"

Last time I checked, an attending's definition of "affable" probably wasn't a cocky anime kid who doesn't like vowels. Also, the "if they don't like it, screw 'em" attitude goes far towards matching into rads; you know even if you nail a 250 there's probably going to be at least 20 other "ppl" with that same score, and 60 more with 240's, all interviewing for the same 8-10 slots....

Sry if i'm bng abrsv, but I thnk im spking 4 the ppl.....

 

[Long Dong]

I think you have to realize that most people will change their minds about what they want to do once they see more. You might decide you love something you do in rotations. You might learn in rotations that you hate certain roles. Truth of the matter is that as a first year, you really don't know. And you don't need to --your job is just to keep as many doors open as you can. But you are for some reason making it harder to get certain options you have likely not had any exposure to yet. Grades certainly don't matter as much as some other things. (I've had mentors describe their lack of import as the "dirty little secret" of med school). But there is a correlation of med school grades to Step 1 (the second year grade correlation is far greater than that of the MCAT, because that covers the highest yield material), and, regardless of how it is weighted, residencies do see your grades and class rank. At a lot of places regularly getting low 80s puts you just shy of the class average which may even mean different wording in your dean's letter. That's well and fine if it's the best you can do. But pretty foolhardy if you are not putting in the effort to do better.

L2D is right on the money on this one, keep doors open. During my first 2 years of med school I was about 80% sure I wanted to do path. My classmates often called me the path guy in our class, come mid 3rd after working w/patients I remember why I came to med school in the first place, and that is to work w/patients. So I choose to go into derm, one of the only fields that has alot of patient contact and alot of path slides to read. I eventually want to do dermpath. Moral of the story is to keep doors open you might change your mind to a more competitive field and being AOA would definetly help, and w/your smarts probablely wouldn't take much extra effort.

Step 1 is heavy on year 2 material and definetly your grades are going to effect the wording in your deans letter even in p/f schools that don't have rankings. So just keep all of this in mind, cuz you might change your mind.

As for challenges then, being the buff and smart person your are, you could always go to clubs and hit on girls out of your league (like the super model types). I've always found that fun, if your going to get rejected might as well be from a hottie. Oh yeah you could always go on that tv show beauty and the geek and squire off against those other mensa peeps.

 

[Law2Doc]

I guess that some people may enjoy drinking and playing video games while others would rather spend time with family/friends, so I suppose I can certainly advocate spending time on things that are important to you.

I'm not sure you can equate the two, even if the time expenditure is the same. If you are getting low B's because you have to keep your marriage happy and family intact, or because you have financial need for a job, or have to attend to an ill relative, etc., that's always going to be regarded very differently than if you get low B's because of all the time you spend playing WoW, drinking, watching anime. People will acknowledge the former as something you just have to do, a preexisting obligation. You are trying to "have it all" and while you may come up short, the effort is generally respected. The latter, however, will be considered laziness no matter how you slice it. You are wasting an opportunity.

 

[jdh71]

jdh no interviews are acts of kindness, they are all 2 sided transactions. anyway as always thx for responses sry if im abrasive.

I'm just talking about helping your chances my hyperbole aside . . .

Look, you remind me of myself - scarry so . . . I recognized all of the BS for what it was BS quite early on - and IT IS! ALL OF IT! BS! Most med students are of a personality stripe that eats this crap up and loves it, and I'd reckon you're a little more closer to my personality style. I mean come on research?! Give me an effin break! How is my crunching your number on your project going to make me a better clinician? It doesn't. But that's the game . . . you see almost all of your academic institution have big shots in positions of authority (ie. they are the big deciders in who comes to their programs) and these guys LOVE research - their egos love their names at the front of paper they did no work on and they love even more the money and prestige that research brings to the program. The biggest factor affecting program ranking? Number of published papers. One again to reiterate the BS factor . . . what does this have to do with reading CT's and plain films? Not a flipping thing, but that's the hoop and you better jump monkey! Because if you don't? You're much more likely to find yourself scrabling or doing that back-up specialty - like IM.

I'm trying to save you some pain my friend. I've been there - done that - and found myself not matching into my competitive specialty of choice (of course I also have a history of marijuana abuse that lead to a repeat of 2nd year so I even had a harder fight than normal). And I'll be spending the next three years doing IM. Lucky for me I don't mind IM, like IM, even if I have to spend all my time with the "******s" and IMGs (if you missed the sarcasm in the last statement, it was there, please no offense intended).

If you really are having to beat MENSA back with a stick, then you're a smart guy . . think about it. It's all about options, and the closer to you get to match the less time and chance you have to do anything about, you'll be happy if you put forth some effort and find yourself with more interview offers than you have time or money to go to.

Peace.

 

[45408]

Well, it's usually not hard to figure out which of your classmates are the ones who are doing well and which aren't - there are always a couple that are just flat out dumb and can never answer the simplest questions. And considering a max of like 5% of our class can fail, the odds are strong that most of those neurotic people aren't lying when they say they're not in the danger zone. If you do a reasonable amount of work there is no reason to be petrified of failing.

I agree that most people shouldn't be petrified about failing, but if you do slack off, failing becomes very realistic. It's kind of like being chased by a bear that can't run quite as fast as you can. As long as you keep going at full speed, you'll be okay, but if you let it slip a little, you're finished. I'm running at full speed, and the bear is definitely behind me, but man, I'm getting tired.

 

[Mr. Freeze]

gimme a break, you think i would cite vid games, drinking etc as reason for substellar grades--ive come this far and have enough sense not to be a dummy. countless other reasons can be BSd whether they are true or not. as for AOA and "really competitive" specialties thats for gunners and not so relevant to the thread. gunners dont end up better off than shrewd slackers. btw doing well can hurt one in terms of opportunity cost. jdh no interviews are acts of kindness, they are all 2 sided transactions. anyway as always thx for responses sry if im abrasive.

I'm not implying you'd cite those, and I agree not everyone's non-academic endeavors are going to appeal to the rest of the herd. What I do believe is that when and if the topic of what you did outside of school comes up, your only recourse is dishonesty. Which isn't really any of my business. Unless you have the sack to say that you didn't really feel that grades were that important that you should apply yourself completely.

I think like someone else alluded to, your grades prolly carry more weight as their contribution to a dean's letter. I'm pretty sure if you get low 80's, you'll find yourself well into the bottom half of the class. Which for my sake I hope isn't too much of a handicap!

I think the real issue is that you aren't happy with your decision to go to medical school, you've picked the two specialties most likely to not have to interact with other human beings, and now you're doing as little as possible to reach your destination. You're closing doors for yourself before you even know what's on the other side.

 

[45408]

You could always go to the gym and try to get your bench press as high as your IQ or u and try to get your bench press higher then your step 1.

Hmmm, my bench press is almost certainly higher than my IQ, but if my board scores are on par with my bench, I'll be in real trouble.

 

[45408]

I'm not sure you can equate the two, even if the time expenditure is the same. If you are getting low B's because you have to keep your marriage happy and family intact, or because you have financial need for a job, or have to attend to an ill relative, etc.

Or just plain staying sane. I have plenty more time I could spend studying, but I'd be coo coo for coco puffs at that point. My brain already feels semi-gelatinized, and studying more would just make that worse.

 

[Shredder]

I'm just talking about helping your chances my hyperbole aside . . .

Look, you remind me of myself - scarry so . . . I recognized all of the BS for what it was BS quite early on - and IT IS! ALL OF IT! BS! Most med students are of a personality stripe that eats this crap up and loves it, and I'd reckon you're a little more closer to my personality style. I mean come on research?! Give me an effin break! How is my crunching your number on your project going to make me a better clinician? It doesn't. But that's the game . . . you see almost all of your academic institution have big shots in positions of authority (ie. they are the big deciders in who comes to their programs) and these guys LOVE research - their egos love their names at the front of paper they did no work on and they love even more the money and prestige that research brings to the program. The biggest factor affecting program ranking? Number of published papers. One again to reiterate the BS factor . . . what does this have to do with reading CT's and plain films? Not a flipping thing, but that's the hoop and you better jump monkey! Because if you don't? You're much more likely to find yourself scrabling or doing that back-up specialty - like IM.

I'm trying to save you some pain my friend. I've been there - done that - and found myself not matching into my competitive specialty of choice (of course I also have a history of marijuana abuse that lead to a repeat of 2nd year so I even had a harder fight than normal). And I'll be spending the next three years doing IM. Lucky for me I don't mind IM, like IM, even if I have to spend all my time with the "******s" and IMGs (if you missed the sarcasm in the last statement, it was there, please no offense intended).

If you really are having to beat MENSA back with a stick, then you're a smart guy . . think about it. It's all about options, and the closer to you get to match the less time and chance you have to do anything about, you'll be happy if you put forth some effort and find yourself with more interview offers than you have time or money to go to.

Peace.

hmm yeah good post, I'm lousy at these games so I didn't get into my choice schools. I tried hard in undergrad though but didn't reap much fruit so I've grown jaded about doing my "best". Everything is BS, man when does it end. IMs all right, nice short residency and if one doesn't mind it then no probs. Couldn't do it myself but I'm glad others can.

Long Dong derms so competitive, how are you doing on that front. For that yeah I can understand getting top grades and doing well in everything. Rads fairly competitive too but path not so much. Still lots of IMGs filling path spots. Hitting on modely chicks, mmm I like smart ones but they're rare.

Mensa it was a bunch of weird ppl, I found. Plenty of med students would get in anyway. I dunno about being smart, I just have a knack for studying the right things and knowing what will be asked and what won't. It's very valuable. L2D I can still lie though and say I was working rly hard and still struggling. Again outcome is the same and maybe they'll take pity. Btw all I'm discontent about playing vid games, drinking etc so I am not exactly reveling in it, that's why I made the thread. Anyway I don't like making totally self-centered threads, was wondering if anyone else felt similarly at all. Anyone have any business ventures on the side by any chance or pondering them? I'm passionate about this. I've mentioned First Aid, and that guy was not only a med student when he got that ball rolling but is also doing rads. Oh yeah Freeze you're right, def regrets and path/rads is no coincidence. Still it would be fairly easy to get path though ppl have decided to discuss rads only. Freeze is that OU? Do you know Shikha?

 

[Tired Pigeon]

Why is everyone encouraging the OP to work harder? Why are we worried about possible consequences to him in terms of fewer opportunities down the road?

If the guy slacks off, he might have to pay the price somewhere down the line, and if so he can enjoy his FP residency in East Bumf*ck. Alternatively, maybe he slacks off but still ends up in a nice rads spot (unlikely, IMO, but not technically impossible). In either case, he clearly hasn't asked for assistance here, so why share helpful advice and experience with him? He seems determined to make his own bed, so let him lie in it.

 

[lilnoelle]

I'm pretty sure if you get low 80's, you'll find yourself well into the bottom half of the class. Which for my sake I hope isn't too much of a handicap!

Is everyone's class like this? I think our 50th% is close to a "B", but not quite. Our school is a little odd cuz they don't do class rank based on your percentile in the class, just strictly by A,B,C,D,F (or honors, high pass, etc....). So, while my grades put me at around 75th%, a good part of my class is right there with me (everyone with straight B's). Does that make sense?

I've heard lots of individuals saying that a large portion of their class honors consistantly. Maybe my class is just on the dumb side, cuz thats certainly not the case for us.

Oh, and I'm with the Op with the stupidity that those who are not interested in research still have to do it just to get into a competitive residency.
I understand thats a hoop I'll have to jump through, and jump I will, but yet, it seems odd to me that the competitive specialties require research, I mean, really, why is research more important in dermatology than in IM? (I understand why it is from a practical standpoint, but am saying that it seems to me that research would be more important in fields like psych, IM, neurology, etc than for plastic surgery or radiology.)

 

[Law2Doc]

Why is everyone encouraging the OP to work harder? Why are we worried about possible consequences to him in terms of fewer opportunities down the road?

If the guy slacks off, he might have to pay the price somewhere down the line, and if so he can enjoy his FP residency in East Bumf*ck. Alternatively, maybe he slacks off but still ends up in a nice rads spot (unlikely, IMO, but not technically impossible). In either case, he clearly hasn't asked for assistance here, so why share helpful advice and experience with him? He seems determined to make his own bed, so let him lie in it.

I think it's less about encouraging to work harder and more about addressing his first post where he suggested med school should be done in 3 years because he was wasting his time and planning to coast into rads. I have no problem with him living with the consequences of his decision. He likely will anyway regardless of our feedback.

 

[Mr. Freeze]

hmm yeah good post, I'm lousy at these games so I didn't get into my choice schools. I tried hard in undergrad though but didn't reap much fruit so I've grown jaded about doing my "best". Everything is BS, man when does it end. IMs all right, nice short residency and if one doesn't mind it then no probs. Couldn't do it myself but I'm glad others can.

Long Dong derms so competitive, how are you doing on that front. For that yeah I can understand getting top grades and doing well in everything. Rads fairly competitive too but path not so much. Still lots of IMGs filling path spots. Hitting on modely chicks, mmm I like smart ones but they're rare.

Mensa it was a bunch of weird ppl, I found. Plenty of med students would get in anyway. I dunno about being smart, I just have a knack for studying the right things and knowing what will be asked and what won't. It's very valuable. L2D I can still lie though and say I was working rly hard and still struggling. Again outcome is the same and maybe they'll take pity. Btw all I'm discontent about playing vid games, drinking etc so I am not exactly reveling in it, that's why I made the thread. Anyway I don't like making totally self-centered threads, was wondering if anyone else felt similarly at all. Anyone have any business ventures on the side by any chance or pondering them? I'm passionate about this. I've mentioned First Aid, and that guy was not only a med student when he got that ball rolling but is also doing rads. Oh yeah Freeze you're right, def regrets and path/rads is no coincidence. Still it would be fairly easy to get path though ppl have decided to discuss rads only. Freeze is that OU? Do you know Shikha?

She's in my mod!!

Why not pursue an MBA or something?

 

[Law2Doc]

Is everyone's class like this? I think our 50th% is close to a "B", but not quite. Our school is a little odd cuz they don't do class rank based on your percentile in the class, just strictly by A,B,C,D,F (or honors, high pass, etc....). So, while my grades put me at around 75th%, a good part of my class is right there with me (everyone with straight B's). Does that make sense?

I've heard lots of individuals saying that a large portion of their class honors consistantly. Maybe my class is just on the dumb side, cuz thats certainly not the case for us.

At a lot of schools the average is around the 85% range, making low 80s below average. Honors is likely pushed up in schools with higher averages; most places don't have a large portion of their class honoring.

 

[Shredder]

Why is everyone encouraging the OP to work harder? Why are we worried about possible consequences to him in terms of fewer opportunities down the road?

Isn't that the basis of making and responding to threads on SDN? Reciprocity or something like that. Anyway everyone's picking on rads, I've acknowledged that it's pretty competitive. Path's a reasonable backup though and still affords good lifestyle and pay with easy residency and workload+call

Freeze ha cool, I met her at Bahamas, she's pretty and my indo friends loved her. MBA yes, can't take it up until after 2nd yr and the Step though at my program. I wonder if I could do some of it concurrently or over summer--dunno, the prob with med school is that classes occupy a lot of the schedule and I doubt double booking is an option. So some ppl do work and do med concurrently? What kinds of jobs and requiring what commitment? I may look into taking up something light that gives good experience.

 

[Law2Doc]

L2D I can still lie though and say I was working rly hard and still struggling. Again outcome is the same and maybe they'll take pity.

That's pretty sad that you have no integrity, or that you'd rather watch anime than maintain it, Shredder.

 

[Mr. Freeze]

Is everyone's class like this? I think our 50th% is close to a "B", but not quite. Our school is a little odd cuz they don't do class rank based on your percentile in the class, just strictly by A,B,C,D,F (or honors, high pass, etc....). So, while my grades put me at around 75th%, a good part of my class is right there with me (everyone with straight B's). Does that make sense?

I've heard lots of individuals saying that a large portion of their class honors consistantly. Maybe my class is just on the dumb side, cuz thats certainly not the case for us.

Oh, and I'm with the Op with the stupidity of individuals who are not interested in research still having to do it just to get into a competitive residency.
I understand thats a hoop I'll have to jump through, and jump I will, but yet, it seems odd to me that the competitive specialties require research, I mean, really, why is research more important in dermatology than in IM? (I understand why it is from a practical standpoint, but am saying that it seems to me that research would be more important in fields like psych, IM, neurology, etc than for plastic surgery or radiology.)

In the class above us, although somewhat neurotic self-described overachievers, I believe you could've had a 4.0 and been near 55-60%ile for MSI. Other years have been similar, but not quite as drastic.

I prefer to think of my grades as having relieved me of the stress of maintaining a 4.0

 

[Shredder]

L2D Ok what if I fake struggle then and convince myself that I did have a hard time. Who would be harmed if I lied about whether I worked hard or not for my grades? I'm still emphasizing that the result is the same and nobody needs to know any better. Basically what business do ppl have evaluating how hard ppl worked to achieve something or other. If they do ask I don't see what's wrong in fudging, it's not hurting anyone except other applicants and it's a competitive process so big deal. Who's going to ask how hard I worked in yr 1 and 2 anyway? I can understand rotations but I'll be sure to appear hard working there.

 

[Mr. Freeze]

Isn't that the basis of making and responding to threads on SDN? Reciprocity or something like that. Anyway everyone's picking on rads, I've acknowledged that it's pretty competitive. Path's a reasonable backup though and still affords good lifestyle and pay with easy residency and workload+call

Freeze ha cool, I met her at Bahamas, she's pretty and my indo friends loved her. MBA yes, can't take it up until after 2nd yr and the Step though at my program. I wonder if I could do some of it concurrently or over summer--dunno, the prob with med school is that classes occupy a lot of the schedule and I doubt double booking is an option. So some ppl do work and do med concurrently? What kinds of jobs and requiring what commitment? I may look into taking up something light that gives good experience.

OU doesn't have a joint program, so I looked into doing one at night, stand-alone. But then school started and I quickly found that maybe I should cross one bridge at a time. But you may not have to do your school's program.

 

[lilnoelle]

Ok what if I fake struggle then and convince myself that I did have a hard time. Who would be harmed if I lied about whether I worked hard or not for my grades? I'm still emphasizing that the result is the same and nobody needs to know any better

I really think its fine that your not putting extreme effort into med school. Go ahead and enjoy it, as long as you learn what you need to to be a physician. This year will be over before long and most likely next year will be more time consuming.
So, your slacking off and getting low 80s, at least your not slacking off and failing (there are a few in my class like that).
The big thing I think that people are bothered with here is your confidence that you will be able to do fantastically on the boards and match into something competitive even though you slacked off your first two years. If it works for you, fantastic, but I don't know that its something that you can bet on.

I say if your comfortable with what your doing, then keep it up (although you've told us that you don't feel like your behavior is what it should be).
If your telling the truth and you don't like your behavior, then study more and have it not be for the grades, but rather to learn. If your not happy with your behavior but don't want to study more, then find something more productive to do with your spare time. There are certainly many productive things that you could be doing.

 

[Law2Doc]

L2D Ok what if I fake struggle then and convince myself that I did have a hard time. Who would be harmed if I lied about whether I worked hard or not for my grades? I'm still emphasizing that the result is the same and nobody needs to know any better. Basically what business do ppl have evaluating how hard ppl worked to achieve something or other. If they do ask I don't see what's wrong in fudging, it's not hurting anyone except other applicants and it's a competitive process so big deal.

It kind of is a "big deal". Lying and fudging are symptoms of a lack of integrity, which is, frankly "unprofessional". You start out this way and next thing you know, you will be arrested for fudging Medicaid reimbursement forms because "it's a competitive process" too. The end doesn't justify the means in ethics -- it is the journey that matters. If you are so ethically bankrupt that you intend to lie in an interview, rather than spending the next couple of years putting yourself into a position where you wouldn't have to, you really aren't particularly suited for being a member of a profession. I don't care that you aren't pushing yourself (although I do think you are being shortsighted). But at least maintain your honesty about it.

 

[lilnoelle]

It kind of is a "big deal". Lying and fudging are symptoms of a lack of integrity, which is, frankly "unprofessional". You start out this way and next thing you know, you will be arrested for fudging Medicaid reimbursement forms because "it's a competitive process" too. The end doesn't justify the means in ethics -- it is the journey that matters. If you are so ethically bankrupt that you intend to lie in an interview, rather than spending the next couple of years putting yourself into a position where you wouldn't have to, you really aren't particularly suited for being a member of a profession. I don't care that you aren't pushing yourself. But at least maintain your honesty about it.

I don't understand why he'd ever find it necessary to say "I didn't honor my first two years because I watched anime and played video games".
I guess there might be enough discrepency between a 2.0 average and a 250 on Step I that might make someone curious, but I think the Op may have a 3.0 average rather than a 2.0. (He said he would have to put in a huge amount of work to bring his grades up a step, which wouldn't be the case if he was scoring around 82% and a B starts at 85%.) Is any interviewer really gonna point to first year grades and question about B's? I certainly hope not. Especially cuz I'm in the same position - I can get B's relatively easily but would have to put in a substantial amount of time to get A's and don't really feel its worth it (even though it might be intellectually possible).

 

[Mixtli]

Path and rads, I'm thinking about those too.

Med school is a lot different from our ugrad engineering days. You don't feel the same kind of reward you get from finishing a monster problem set or program. The difficulty ain't there in rote memorization, though unlike you, I find it hard to make a lot of free time. I think it will get a lot better 2nd year when we got our asses nailed to the books and Step I looming ahead of us so there's indefinite pressure to keep busy. Also, I think next year will be cooler since we get to learn a lot more about actual diseases and how to treat them.

 

[Long Dong]

Long Dong derms so competitive, how are you doing on that front. For that yeah I can understand getting top grades and doing well in everything. Rads fairly competitive too but path not so much. Still lots of IMGs filling path spots. Hitting on modely chicks, mmm I like smart ones but they're rare.

I matched, luckly. But during the interview season having meet so many outstanding applicants, I always thought to myself I should've done more to make myself stand out. Maybe I shouldn't have gone clubbing so much during years 1 and 2 and could've pulled a better step 1, done better on class grades to make aoa, done more research, gotten an extra degree (mba, mph, etc), win a bodybuilding competition or snowboarding half pipe contest. Yeah know, anything to make myself standout even more then these other guys with humungous CVs. But yeah if you like path and seeing patients think derm. If you are already frustrated w/the lack of challenge, after 20+ years of just looking at slides or sitting in the dark room you might get board to. At least w/derm or IR you can also do procedures and that stuff is hella fun. Again keep an open mind and do the best you can so you don't have any regrets as to what your options are come interview season.

 

[Law2Doc]

I don't understand why he'd ever find it necessary to say "I didn't honor my first two years because I watched anime and played video games".

As a prior poster indicated they can conceivably ask him what he did extracurricularly/outside of class during his first couple of years of med school. You probably avoid this question to some extent if your grades suggest you lived in the library. So too in your case where you have a family to point to as an EC.

 

[lilnoelle]

As a prior poster indicated they can conceivably ask him what he did extracurricularly/outside of class during his first couple of years of med school. You probably avoid this question to some extent if your grades suggest you lived in the library.

What if his extracurricular activities involved more social activities? Even though they don't add to his CV it seems like they would be more socially acceptable. What if it were me and I decided to have a third child? Obviously my time would be consumed by my child and my grades would be affected. Those things are more socially acceptable, but still are selfish things.
It doesn't really seem right that my selfish activities would trump his selfish activities in the eyes of an interviewer.
(just playing devil's advocate here)
And to further play devil's advocate - we all have a certain amount of extra time that we use to do what we want with. If we didn't, we wouldn't be on SDN. In the same sense, I'm wasting my study time right now, the week before a test. I'm probably not gonna admit that I spent x hours a week on internet when asked what I did with my first two years in a residency interview. No, I'll probably bring up my children.
Is that being dishonest?

 

[Law2Doc]

What if his extracurricular activities involved more social activities? Even though they don't add to his CV it seems like they would be more socially acceptable. What if it were me and I decided to have a third child? Obviously my time would be consumed by my child and my grades would be affected. Those things are more socially acceptable, but still are selfish things.
It doesn't really seem right that my selfish activities would trump his selfish activities in the eyes of an interviewer.
(just playing devil's advocate here)
And to further play devil's advocate - we all have a certain amount of extra time that we use to do what we want with. If we didn't, we wouldn't be on SDN. In the same sense, I'm wasting my study time right now, the week before a test. I'm probably not gonna admit that I spent x hours a week on internet when asked what I did with my first two years in a residency interview. No, I'll probably bring up my children.
Is that being dishonest?

I think you were posting while I was editing my post -- see my last sentence. Yes, having a child trumps drinking, cartoons and video games as far as excuses for not pushing yourself to the next level in med school. People will always evaluate your "selfish activities" against those of others. That's human nature.

 

[Critical Mass]

I'm not sure you can equate the two, even if the time expenditure is the same. If you are getting low B's because you have to keep your marriage happy and family intact, or because you have financial need for a job, or have to attend to an ill relative, etc., that's always going to be regarded very differently than if you get low B's because of all the time you spend playing WoW, drinking, watching anime. People will acknowledge the former as something you just have to do, a preexisting obligation. You are trying to "have it all" and while you may come up short, the effort is generally respected. The latter, however, will be considered laziness no matter how you slice it. You are wasting an opportunity.

Here's my question though, and I run into this sort of thing in pre-allo all the time. Does it really matter to a program why your performance was lower than you think it should have been? What I mean is, what if you had a married guy who liked to play video games? If he lied and wrote in his essay that he was devoting time to his family instead of preparing exams (when we was really enjoying his Wii), would that applicant have an advantage over a person who was never married?

I would also like throw out the fact that radiology isn't really in the top tier as far as competativeness goes. It's definitely competative and tough to match, but I believe that it is still a rung underneath rad onc, ORL, derm, plastics, etc.

 

[Law2Doc]

Here's my question though, and I run into this sort of thing in pre-allo all the time. Does it really matter to a program why your performance was lower than you think it should have been? What I mean is, what if you had a married guy who liked to play video games? If he lied and wrote in his essay that he was devoting time to his family instead of preparing exams (when we was really enjoying his Wii), would that applicant have an advantage over a person who was never married?

I would also like throw out the fact that radiology isn't really in the top tier as far as competativeness goes. It's definitely competative and tough to match, but I believe that it is still a rung underneath rad onc, ORL, derm, plastics, etc.

I think the rungs are closer than you think, and each has a range. A lot of the things you list overlap with some of the competitive things in the "rungs" just below.

As for your first point, if the person is lying, it is a lack of integrity whether he is married or not. A better dressed up lie is still a lie. I'm saying if the person had a more legitimate reason for not getting honors than eg playing video games, he will go farther without having to be unethical. But in the case of the OP, he has time to set himself up nicely for possible residency and claims he has the ability to do it, but chooses not to, instead complaining that med school is wasting too much of his time as is. That simply isn't the approach that gets you far, IMHO.

 

[lilnoelle]

oops, double post

 

[lilnoelle]

Aren't there quite a few med students (at least on SDN) who claim they study 4-6 hours a day until the week of the test? What are they doing with the other 10 hours? It seems like there could potentially be a lot of individuals who spend a lot of time with video games, or doing other entertaining things. I don't see why the Op is different than those mentioned above.

 

[Critical Mass]

Freeze ha cool, I met her at Bahamas, she's pretty and my indo friends loved her.

She does have beautiful eyes. I love Indian women.

L2D--I don't really see that there is such a thing as integrity in the minds of the most competative med students in my class, nor do I think that residency programs respect integrity much in the toughest specialties. I agree that they should, but the more competative the program, the more emphasis is placed on objective criteria.

NRMP 2005 outcomes show rads as .82 US seniors applying per position. It's getting more competative each year, but I'd take those odds if I were applying for rads.

 

[Law2Doc]

Aren't there quite a few med students (at least on SDN) who claim they study 4-6 hours a day until the week of the test? What are they doing with the other 10 hours? It seems like there could potentially be a lot of individuals who spend a lot of time with video games, or doing other entertaining things. I don't see why the Op is different than those mentioned above.

He's different because he's claiming he's wasting his time and wants med school to be fewer years. He's also asserting that grades don't matter, research is not worth the bother, that he will rock the boards notwithstanding coasting for two years, and that he expects to realistically land in a competitive residency. More power to him if he can accomplish all this. But that is what makes him different from the quiet slackers with fewer expectations and claims.

 

[Law2Doc]

L2D--I don't really see that there is such a thing as integrity in the minds of the most competative med students in my class, nor do I think that residency programs respect integrity much in the toughest specialties. I agree that they should, but the more competative the program, the more emphasis is placed on objective criteria.

I certainly have classmates with integrity, and a school that demands it and takes it pretty seriously. I also have worked for folks involved in the residency process at a couple of places, who likely wouldn't have much interest in someone they caught in a lie. (Based on my impression of their personalities).

 

[lilnoelle]

He's different because he's claiming he's wasting his time and wants med school to be fewer years. He's also asserting that grades don't matter, research is not worth the bother, that he will rock the boards notwithstanding coasting for two years, and that he expects to realistically land in a competitive residency. More power to him if he can accomplish all this. But that is what makes him different from the quiet slackers with fewer expectations and claims.

Thats the portion that I find odd. It resembles the pre-med assumption that an individual with a lower GPA is great as long as they "rock the MCAT". Thats fine if you've already "rocked the MCAT" but claiming so beforehand seems a little foolhardy.

"pride goeth before the fall"

 

[Critical Mass]

I certainly have classmates with integrity, and a school that demands it and takes it pretty seriously. I also have worked for folks involved in the residency process at a couple of places, who likely wouldn't have much interest in someone they caught in a lie. (Based on my impression of their personalities).

In this case, there is no way to prove that you didn't spend your free time with your family, so there would be no way to be caught in the lie. This is why I have stressed that I don't really think that programs care why you didn't do as well as they expect their accepted pool to do.

I'm not really endorsing the OP's lifestyle, but if he has a different values system than me, that's not my business.

I am willing to argue that being a parent provides more opportunity to grow as a person and learn skills that are important in patient care in contrast to playing video games or drinking, but I don't know how a PGY program can judge between two applicants. This situation may appear to be cut-and-dry, but what about a devoutly religious person who claims that he/she couldn't study on Sundays before exams?

 

[Law2Doc]

I'm not really endorsing the OP's lifestyle, but if he has a different values system than me, that's not my business.

Actually in a profession, if he is advocating behaving unethically (eg lying in a professional/academic capacity), it kind of is your business (although I agree, the slacking wouldn't be). A self regulating profession only works if there's a shared ethical underpinning and people work to uphold it.

 

[Shredder]

Interviews sometimes encourage lying by judging you based on your own personal business instead of letting it be and focusing on what's more relevant. Hey, I have Bill Clinton to look to for ethics right?

.82 US apps per rads spot, thank you. Path's even lower. Rads is like 4/5 or 3/4 competitive and path like 2/5. I have a good history of test taking and I plan to prep a lot for the boards so I think I'll do well on the Step. However I'll focus more on the review books and materials than class materials. Ideally they're supposed to coincide but I've seen that's not always the case so far.

CritMass true, the gunners are the ones most notorious for lying and backstabbing

 

[Critical Mass]

Actually in a profession, if he is advocating behaving unethically (eg lying in a professional/academic capacity), it kind of is your business (although I agree, the slacking wouldn't be). A self regulating profession only works if there's a shared ethical underpinning and people work to uphold it.

This is true, but I might also argue that telling a lie such as one that I referred to (again, not that I endorse the practice) is fairly similar to what happens every day when a physician bills a patient for an office visit absorbed by a PA in which he never saw the pt/reviewed the chart or when he increases the billing for an insured patient (i.e. bumping up a level) because he also asked him if he wanted something for zits when the pt was just coming in for some BP med refills.

Most of the laws regarding Medicare reimbursement only exist now because docs, labs, and hospitals spent too much of the 1980's dipping their hands into the government till. I don't see medicine as the most ethical profession by a long shot, so it seems like the ability to lie/cheat/steal might actually be selected for.

As I've said before, the majority of the students doing well in my class were very apparently lying in their AMCAS essays. While there is no question about this whatsoever, it's also likely that these folks are the ones who will be going into derm and/or plastics.

 

[dilated]

Thats the portion that I find odd. It resembles the pre-med assumption that an individual with a lower GPA is great as long as they "rock the MCAT". Thats fine if you've already "rocked the MCAT" but claiming so beforehand seems a little foolhardy.

"pride goeth before the fall"

"Rocking the MCAT" (as in, 95th %ile+) often means you're the kind of person who can pick up info fast. It's not unreasonable to expect that in your couple months of Step I cramming you can learn what you need. You won't get a 270 or anything, but the 235 or whatever you need for rads is certainly doable.

 

[lilnoelle]

"Rocking the MCAT" (as in, 95th %ile+) often means you're the kind of person who can pick up info fast. It's not unreasonable to expect that in your couple months of Step I cramming you can learn what you need. You won't get a 270 or anything, but the 235 or whatever you need for rads is certainly doable.

And its very possible that the Op will do this.

I was referring to premeds who have preformed poorly in undergrad and are still confident that they will rock the MCAT (36+ is what is usually claimed). Until one takes the test, one has no idea how they'll do.

I'm not saying the Op is such a person, he's probably very gifted and intelligent. I just don't think its good to make claims before you actually take the test. (maybe I'm a pessimist, but at this point in time I consider myself daydreaming when I think of possibly matching into a competitive residency, I'm not sure what I want to do yet, and am waiting to find out my score to help me decide what is open to me)

 

[Chulito]

<snip>...I won't actually claim I want a competitive residency until after I know my Step I score

 

[Doctor Bagel]

In the class above us, although somewhat neurotic self-described overachievers, I believe you could've had a 4.0 and been near 55-60%ile for MSI. Other years have been similar, but not quite as drastic.

I prefer to think of my grades as having relieved me of the stress of maintaining a 4.0

It's not quite that bad, but close. Supposedly about 30 people have straight A's after the first year, and I guess that'd put you in the top 20%. So yeah, the 4.0s make up almost all the top quartile, and if you make straight B's, you're probably in the bottom half. Anyway, I'm guessing low 80s at Shredder's school means something different.

 

[pagemmapants]

*hugs her H/P/F non-curved system*

 

[45408]

No kidding. I feel the same way as noelle. I'm not even going to let myself get overly interested in something really competitive until I get the Step 1 back (and only if I do well ). I'm trying hard now, but it doesn't seem like I'll be in position to get derm.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

No kidding. I feel the same way as noelle. I'm not even going to let myself get overly interested in something really competitive until I get the Step 1 back (and only if I do well ). I'm trying hard now, but it doesn't seem like I'll be in position to get derm.

The problem with not shooting for a competitive specialty before you get your board scores is that you let others get a drop on you. By the time you get your boards scores back during MS3 and decide you want derm (for example), some gunner's got the same score, has 2 publications in the top derm journal, knows half the derm faculty by their first names and wants the same spot you do. This is why some people recommend conducting prophylactic research in one or the other of the competitive specialties during year 1 and or 2 even if you're not 100% committed so that if/when your scores come through you'll be sitting real pretty and if not, well research never hurts (cept the amount of time you have for video games and drinking I guess).

 

[45408]

well research never hurts (cept the amount of time you have for video games and drinking I guess).

Or studying. Not all of us feel like we have plenty of time to go drinking and Netflixing. That's all well and good if you can manage that, but I decided not to do research this summer for my own sanity. I might do it as a M4 elective, but not now.

 

[Shredder]

im planning on reviewing M1 stuff for the step this summer. not doing solely that but i do plan on doing that. say it gave me 15 added pts on the step--would it be more valuable than research? Every older doc I meet says summer after M1 doesn't matter at all and to do whatever one wants--even one hottie 30 yr old dermo. Then again being a hottie girl gives you the leg up in dermo so they say. Still not seeing much value in research here unless one plans on doing it in and perhaps beyond residency. Certain programs just won't view it that highly

 

[Critical Mass]

*hugs her H/P/F non-curved system*

*wishes he went to school with pagemmapants.