Laid-back PhD clinical programs?

[tomfooleries]

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Does anyone know of or are part of a Ph.D. program that is surprisingly laid-back in its environment? I suppose I ought to be more specific but, I have heard others say that a department is particularly "laid-back." As a perfectionist and super-anxious individual, I imagine this to be awesomee. One of the programs mentioned to me was the UCSD/SDSU joint program. Maybe that has to do with geography; pretty cool though, considering it seems like a very competitive and well-respected program.

 

[futureapppsy2]

"Laid back" in what sense?

 

[ClinPsycMasters]

Does anyone know of or are part of a Ph.D. program that is surprisingly laid-back in its environment? I suppose I ought to be more specific but, I have heard others say that a department is particularly "laid-back." As a perfectionist and super-anxious individual, I imagine this to be awesomee. One of the programs mentioned to me was the UCSD/SDSU joint program. Maybe that has to do with geography; pretty cool though, considering it seems like a very competitive and well-respected program.

hehehe, "laid back"? Maybe it is geography and local culture but if you're talking about a competitive and respected program, none are laid back.

 

[erg923]

I think you will find programs that are less research intensive than others, thereby possibly making them a little more "warm and fuzzy" if you will, but no one is gonna be laid-back about educating professional mental health practitioners. This is serious business we do here. I do not advocate being "laid back" about any aspect of what i do or my responsibilities as a professional.

I would suggest being laid back on your down time, not while studying, doing research, or seeing patients on practium.

 

[tomfooleries]

I think you will find programs that are less research intensive than others, thereby possibly making them a little more "warm and fuzzy" if you will, but no one is gonna be laid-back about educating professional mental health practitioners. This is serious business we do here. I do not advocate being "laid back" about any aspect of what i do or my responsibilities as a professional.

I would suggest being laid back on your down time, not while studying, doing research, or seeing patients on practium.

Yikes. You seem insulted by my question. That, or you want to flex your experienced muscles. Regardless, don't like the tone... so I will reciprocate:

I'm well versed in the routine; what year are you? I might have more experience... As an RA, I am research-reliable to evaluate kids suspected of having ASDs. I write reports "better than all the grad students" at a top tier university.

In reflecting on the past two years here, I only wondered if there are any respectable programs out there made up of those individuals (all motivated by their painful awareness of how others perceive them, and how they might be able to pick apart their own psychopathology in time) who are less angry and externalizing about their lots in life. I bet most of them are in fact in CA, huh?

You're probably right; all are respected institutions driven by the pressures of grant chasing and publishing. It just seems so damn counter-intuitive to earn a useless degree, with no career potential, in a pressured environment. Out of the funny farm and on to medicine it is, then...

 

[erg923]

Oh, my bad, i didn't mean to offend someone who writes such fantastic psych reports....

Calm down kid...and no, i don't think you have more experience than me-Not that it (or your "better than all the grad students reports") is an anyway relevant here. You can't read tone over a message board, so get over your perceived ego slight and move on....

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Does anyone know of or are part of a Ph.D. program that is surprisingly laid-back in its environment? I suppose I ought to be more specific but, I have heard others say that a department is particularly "laid-back." As a perfectionist and super-anxious individual, I imagine this to be awesomee. One of the programs mentioned to me was the UCSD/SDSU joint program. Maybe that has to do with geography; pretty cool though, considering it seems like a very competitive and well-respected program.

I think the reaction you got is not out of the ordinary. People often post threads on here that are generally looking for a "different but equal" option, but what they really want is less work in the same or less time. I felt the same thing when I read, "laid back"....because that just doesn't exist because there is took much to do. A more laid back culture is one thing....but the work is the work.

Part-Time at a reputable program will be non-existent in the traditional sense. A person may be able to stretch out their classes a bit, but programs set classes by cohort, and I do see a program wanting someone who isn't fully committed. If you were hiring someone to work for you, who will have a direct impact on your work....would you want the person who would put in long hours and do whatever it takes or the person who is looking to avoid as much stress as possible? Stress is a great motivator and it gets things done.

Graduate school is anything but laid back. The only time I could describe my time as "laid back" was the day after match day to a few weeks before I moved. I still had stuff to do, but it was 30hr/wk instead of 50-70hr/wk. I actually got bored with 30-35hr/wk, but I did catch up on my sleep.

 

[deleted176373]

If you are talking about internal competition once you're in, I would say that USUHS is fairly laid back and highly collaborative... getting in might be competitive, once in, your cohort might as well be your family. On the other hand, the amount of work expected, is hardly laid back.

Mark

 

[futureapppsy2]

Yikes. You seem insulted by my question. That, or you want to flex your experienced muscles. Regardless, don't like the tone... so I will reciprocate:

I'm well versed in the routine; what year are you? I might have more experience... As an RA, I am research-reliable to evaluate kids suspected of having ASDs. I write reports "better than all the grad students" at a top tier university.

In reflecting on the past two years here, I only wondered if there are any respectable programs out there made up of those individuals (all motivated by their painful awareness of how others perceive them, and how they might be able to pick apart their own psychopathology in time) who are less angry and externalizing about their lots in life. I bet most of them are in fact in CA, huh?

You're probably right; all are respected institutions driven by the pressures of grant chasing and publishing. It just seems so damn counter-intuitive to earn a useless degree, with no career potential, in a pressured environment. Out of the funny farm and on to medicine it is, then...

Woah. This reaction seems a bit over the top.

I think all erg was saying was that grad students--and med students, for that matter--should take their work very seriously. That doesn't mean they (should) never have fun or relax (you HAVE to sometimes, or you would burn out and that would hurt you--and your work--too!), but they shouldn't focus on fun or relaxation when it's at the expense of their clients or future clients, PIs, research participants, etc.

 

[docma]

Maybe the question could be considered in light of "which programs are known for a sense of integrity and humane attention to students' developing a balanced capacity for rigor while maintaining their self-worth and compassion?" Some programs, both PhD and Psyd are better at this than others. There are also significant differences in whether cohorts are encouraged to be collaborative or competitive with each other. That kind of data would be interesting to gather.

I have a positive impression of the Rutgers program in this regard. Maybe also UChicago program in Human Development. And maybe UCSB and University of Washington? I don't have direct data on any of these though,

 

[krisrox]

I can think of programs that are more cooperative than competetive, if that's what you're talking about.

 

[futureapppsy2]

I can think of programs that are more cooperative than competetive, if that's what you're talking about.

Slightly OT, but I think every single program I interviewed at emphasized this about their program.

 

[olychick65]

Slightly OT, but I think every single program I interviewed at emphasized this about their program.

Ditto. But I do wonder whether that's more a line programs feed to interviewees. There seems to be a fair number of grad students and psychologists who talk about how competitive their programs are/were (in my experience). Maybe programs emphasize cooperative aspects of their programs to make potential students feel more comfortable, because clearly the OP isn't alone in wanting an environment that isn't incredibly stressful within the cohort, etc. because there are already so many stressors in terms of requirements.

 

[krisrox]

Slightly OT, but I think every single program I interviewed at emphasized this about their program.

I agree that it's a well-advertised trait, but some are better about adhering to it than others. Loyola and UW-Milwaukee, for instance, said they were more cooperative than competitive, but they were still more competitive than most programs I've seen.

 

[Ollie123]

Agree that there seems to be a terminology problem in this thread.

Laid back isn't going to mean you don't have to work hard or can get by spending < 40 hours a week on school, or that standards are lower. However, there are plenty of programs where students aren't sabotaging eachother, collaboration is encouraged rather than viewed as grad students being "stolen", students don't cry themselves to sleep every night, and no one is beaten with chains for having a manuscript rejected. I'm still unclear which you are asking for.

 

[erg923]

Ditto. But I do wonder whether that's more a line programs feed to interviewees. There seems to be a fair number of grad students and psychologists who talk about how competitive their programs are/were (in my experience). Maybe programs emphasize cooperative aspects of their programs to make potential students feel more comfortable, because clearly the OP isn't alone in wanting an environment that isn't incredibly stressful within the cohort, etc. because there are already so many stressors in terms of requirements.

I think this can vary widely within programs as well. My lab is very collaborative, but others here are not at all. I can understand both sides to the argument actually. Frankly, I think a certain amount of healthy, polite competition within a lab makes pretty productive grad students...which is the real bottom-line for any lab, IMHO.

 

[242598]

.

 

[cara susanna]

My program's pretty laid back, I think.

 

[erg923]

A girl once told me that when she was working as an RA, members of her group were forbiden to go out to lunch with members of another group that was across the hall and that they were not allowed to use the other groups microwave, which was in a shared snack/eating area. This was at large medical school psychiatry department in the northeast...maybe the same one...

 

[ClinPsycMasters]

I hate all these departmental politics. Some universities are so dogmatic about it. It's ridiculous.

 

[aagman01]

I hear where your coming from. Doctoral programs can be very rigid and research intensive. I have been shocked at the rigidness and myopic perspectives of grad students and faculty in my phd program. I could certainly share stories - on one research team I have been a part of, a faculty member dropped 7 out of 8 members because they did not complete write-ups when she wanted them in by. She got a whole lot of free data coding and free labor out of that one. Instead of asking why a majority of the research team did not complete their contributions (even though all had in the past), and there were legitimate reasons for the failure to meet the faculty members deadline on the part of the grad students, the faculty blamed the students. No self-reflection on her part at all as to why 7 out of 8 phd students did not complete the work. Making the story worse, just a month previously, all research team members had gotten abstracts in for a symposium on time - but the symposium was rejected, because the same FACULTY member missed the deadline of submitting her contribution. Not even an apology on her part for that.

For you, I would recommend looking for programs at smaller schools, as they tend to have at least somewhat less publication/grant driven faculty. Of course, "somewhat" is the key there. Psyd programs too, may be something for you to look at.

Best of luck

Yikes. You seem insulted by my question. That, or you want to flex your experienced muscles. Regardless, don't like the tone... so I will reciprocate:

I'm well versed in the routine; what year are you? I might have more experience... As an RA, I am research-reliable to evaluate kids suspected of having ASDs. I write reports "better than all the grad students" at a top tier university.

In reflecting on the past two years here, I only wondered if there are any respectable programs out there made up of those individuals (all motivated by their painful awareness of how others perceive them, and how they might be able to pick apart their own psychopathology in time) who are less angry and externalizing about their lots in life. I bet most of them are in fact in CA, huh?

You're probably right; all are respected institutions driven by the pressures of grant chasing and publishing. It just seems so damn counter-intuitive to earn a useless degree, with no career potential, in a pressured environment. Out of the funny farm and on to medicine it is, then...

 

[Wildcat06]

For you, I would recommend looking for programs at smaller schools, as they tend to have at least somewhat less publication/grant driven faculty. Of course, "somewhat" is the key there. Psyd programs too, may be something for you to look at.

Best of luck

I would also recommend looking into diverse departments. My program is very research-oriented (and very focused on publishing) but it's laid-back in the sense that there is little to no competition between students. I think this is because our research interests are too diverse for us to feel any threat from our classmates and the level of comparison doesn't extend far beyond the classroom.

 

[HopefulStudent8]

Does anyone know of or are part of a Ph.D. program that is surprisingly laid-back in its environment? I suppose I ought to be more specific but, I have heard others say that a department is particularly "laid-back." As a perfectionist and super-anxious individual, I imagine this to be awesomee. One of the programs mentioned to me was the UCSD/SDSU joint program. Maybe that has to do with geography; pretty cool though, considering it seems like a very competitive and well-respected program.

I am not sure if anyone else already mentioned this, but I actually interviewed at UCSD/SDSU this year and I have to say it is anything BUT laid back. In fact, at the interview the DCT stood in front of us with pictures of San Diego's gorgeous beaches and said "enjoy these pictures now, because if you come here, you're never going to see them." Of course I can't know how true that is, but it wasn't really the message that I was looking for. There are some things in particular that I know about the program from my experience there.

For one thing, they have an incredibly high rate of publications per student at the time of graduation, which they are (rightfully) very proud of and drive home that they want incoming students to follow suit. For another, they have a HUGE faculty and only certain faculty are able to take students each year, which means that many students only have one or two (or no) other students working with his/her mentor. I didn't find this appealing because it would mean that all of the small details of a lab would fall on a fewer # of students. Also, their program is split across two different campuses which are 20 minutes apart without traffic. One side has most of the classes for the first few years, and if your mentor happens to be on the other campus, you can imagine that there would be a lot of traveling back and forth. Lastly, (and most strangely, I think), the campuses are on two different time schedules because one is on the quarter system and one is on the semester system. The students told me that this can be a bit of a headache in terms of paperwork but that in general it's not a huge deal. As a very anxious person, I don't want to have to worry about more paperwork when a draft of my thesis is due.


Anecdotally, I spoke with a graduate of the program who endorsed that her and her classmates enjoyed their time at UCSD/SDSU immensely, but it was a TON of work and at least one of their starting peers never finished.

 

[ygolohcysp]

***

 

[psych8000]

Haha. IMO, if you think a program is laid back, it's because they aren't remotely interested in taking you so they really don't care what you do or say, and laugh with ya anyway. haha. A POI who wants you for a grad student will be anything but laid back. This is your future drill seargent, and you are their potential liability, reputation, ego, etc.

 

[roubs]

Haha. IMO, if you think a program is laid back, it's because they aren't remotely interested in taking you so they really don't care what you do or say, and laugh with ya anyway. haha. A POI who wants you for a grad student will be anything but laid back. This is your future drill seargent, and you are their potential liability, reputation, ego, etc.

Not true of all programs.

 

[jexa]

Haha. IMO, if you think a program is laid back, it's because they aren't remotely interested in taking you so they really don't care what you do or say, and laugh with ya anyway. haha. A POI who wants you for a grad student will be anything but laid back. This is your future drill seargent, and you are their potential liability, reputation, ego, etc.

I don't think a mentor has to be a drill sergeant to inspire graduate students to be productive. I definitely think a mentor can be "laid back" in demeanor and style and still have high expectations. I work at a university with a "laid back" program that still has high expectations for students. "Laid back" in this case means -- supportive, cooperative, students can dress more casually than you'd expect, mentors don't yell or get spiteful but find better ways of motivating students, etc.

I, personally, don't see myself being able to work for a person who had a drill sergeant attitude with me. I just cannot be productive with someone breathing down my neck (anxiety will make me shut down). But I am incredibly productive with a supportive atmosphere, and I'm convinced that in the right program (i.e., one with high expectations, but low stress-due-to-politics) I will get pretty far.

I think this is what the OP means.

Like the OP, I am a perfectionist and very anxious. I work for a VERY productive researcher and have achieved 11 publications in the two years I have worked for him. He is 35 and has over 190 publications (this man is insane). But at the same time, he's totally "laid back" (a bunch of us went out to karaoke and he kept buying people drinks haha, and he brings his 2 year old to work sometimes. He also curses like a sailor, and so I get to feel comfortable doing the same). Oh, and he has NEVER been harsh with me, rarely criticizes me, etc. I work hard, and he praises me, and that's mostly how we interact. If he had been a drill sergeant, I doubt I could have been so bold as to suggest the independent projects I suggested, to ask for work that would earn me authorship, etc. Working with someone who is personable in this way is the best way for an anxious person like me to succeed.

 

[stigmata]

Oh this is funny!! Really?

 

[jexa]

Oh and, I interviewed at CU Boulder and I can say that by my definition of laid back, the program there is wonderfully laid back. The students work HARD and are very productive but the environment of the program is very friendly, people are passionate about the work they're doing, everyone I met seemed genuinely happy, etc. I just didn't detect much tension -- and I am pretty good at feeling out tension. A great program in general, and a great city -- I would highly recommend it.

 

[psich]

I don't think a mentor has to be a drill sergeant to inspire graduate students to be productive. I definitely think a mentor can be "laid back" in demeanor and style and still have high expectations. I work at a university with a "laid back" program that still has high expectations for students. "Laid back" in this case means -- supportive, cooperative, students can dress more casually than you'd expect, mentors don't yell or get spiteful but find better ways of motivating students, etc.

I, personally, don't see myself being able to work for a person who had a drill sergeant attitude with me. I just cannot be productive with someone breathing down my neck (anxiety will make me shut down). But I am incredibly productive with a supportive atmosphere, and I'm convinced that in the right program (i.e., one with high expectations, but low stress-due-to-politics) I will get pretty far.

I think this is what the OP means.

Like the OP, I am a perfectionist and very anxious. I work for a VERY productive researcher and have achieved 11 publications in the two years I have worked for him. He is 35 and has over 190 publications (this man is insane). But at the same time, he's totally "laid back" (a bunch of us went out to karaoke and he kept buying people drinks haha, and he brings his 2 year old to work sometimes. He also curses like a sailor, and so I get to feel comfortable doing the same). Oh, and he has NEVER been harsh with me, rarely criticizes me, etc. I work hard, and he praises me, and that's mostly how we interact. If he had been a drill sergeant, I doubt I could have been so bold as to suggest the independent projects I suggested, to ask for work that would earn me authorship, etc. Working with someone who is personable in this way is the best way for an anxious person like me to succeed.

He sounds like such a fun advisor to work with!

 

[kapinkkidowski]

My program is incredibly "laid-back" in that you dont feel like anyone is going to decide you are a failure at life if you stumble; they will do everythign they can to help you. There isnt any competition between students, or faculty, as far as I can tell. Some mentors invite their students over for dinner. Collaboration is the norm. Cohort-mates are like family.

However, its also very intense. I spend WAY more than 40 hours a week working. Its a research intensive program and students and faculty publish quite a bit. My professors accept only my best, and I can't complain because its so obvious they give me theirs. But they also encourage us to eat and sleep and maybe even have relax for a couple of hours every now and then. I may still be overworked and sleep deprived, but I'm happy too.

It's definitely possible to be laid-back, supportive and caring and still be rigorous and demanding at the same time.

 

[futurepsydoc]

I think most of the discussion here got caught up in semantics. To add to this issue, I think the term "culture" speaks more to the point brought up by the original poster and encompasses everything being discussed.

The "culture" of a department of program, in my opinion, is critical to one's experience. Does the culture foster collaboration or competition? Is the feedback given to students more constructive or critical? Does the culture support the development of work-life balance or merely pay lip-service to it? Is greater emphasis placed on publishing, clinical work, coursework, or some combination of the three?

People thrive in different settings. I think we can all agree on that. The question than becomes, what culture will benefit your development as a professional most? The popular developmental notion of "goodness of fit" seems to be the most important aspect to consider. Teasing this out during interviews is a critical issue for applicants to consider.

Keeping that in mind, I would agree that graduate school is neither "laid back" or "easy going." If you are looking for either, clinical psychology may not be for you. Doctoral students, regardless of whether they are in a PsyD or PhD program, have a lot on their plates. The culture of the program/department can exacerbate/mitigate the stress that accompanies these demands.

For some individuals, a culture that fosters cutthroat competition will likely lead to a more difficult road, as it will increase anxiety and self-doubt. In contrast, some students thrive in these settings, as it may foster creativity, productivity, and success.

For many individuals, a more collaborative and supportive environment is likely to buffer stress levels, or at the very least, not pile on another layer of stress. However, this could very well lead to complacency and a lack of rigor, especially if one is not pushed hard enough.

Whatever the case may be, knowledge of yourself and how you respond to similar environments, will be critical in helping you choose what program is right for you.