Landing a hospital pharmacist job as a new graduate?

[Hedgehog32]

Then some unimaginative pharmacist will push PGY-3.

I believe this is just a rumor at this point, but I've heard the possibility is being tossed around throughout Atlanta-area hospitals.

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[deleted562805]

According to the recruiter, this is essentially a dead-accurate description of their mentality when it comes to evaluating applicants for new staffing positions. They're not thinking, "Hmmm, these PGY-2 grads will probably leave as soon as they receive an offer to take a position practicing in their specialty"; instead, they're choosing to interview and hire these candidates simply on the basis of them being the most qualified applicants in terms of both training and experience.

Also, that's another reason I'm not particularly enthusiastic about doing a residency (assuming I'd be competitive enough to be offered a spot in one anyways). If doing a residency led to the prospect of being able to get a really good pharmacist job in a really desirable area (I.e., the concept of doing extra training for a better deal, to put it colloquially), that would be one thing... but on the contrary, it sounds as if it's gotten to the point where residency program completion is a necessary resume credential to have just to qualify for what would've been considered an entry-level hospital pharmacist job 5+ years ago.

BTW @Hels2007, I've been thinking more about what you said in your previous post about me coming across as if me matching into a residency position would be a given. With over 1400 residency programs out there, I had figured that if I applied broadly enough, I'd get at least a couple interviews and hopefully an offer to attend a program somewhere (should I decide I want to take the residency path in the first place). However, in your brutally honest opinion and having had a chance to review my CV, what would you say my chances of matching into a residency somewhere are? My GPA (which I don't think I've mentioned) is above average.

If you recall, I have paid intern experience and a leadership credit on my CV. Would these two credentials combined with a solidly above-average GPA make me a competitive candidate for residency, in your opinion? Please feel free to be brutally honest and objective.

You would need to do clinical research with a preceptor in a hospital that does research in his or her expertise. Not some survey research within school. Almost every one in my class who applied for residency did a research poster for the Mid Year Expo.
For bonus, if you can be involved in a research that gets published as a manuscript in like Annals of Pharmacotherapy, it would make you stand out with residency programs in academic hospitals.

 

[Hedgehog32]

You would need to do clinical research with a preceptor in a hospital that does research in his or her expertise. Not some survey research within school. Almost every one in my class who applied for residency did a research poster for the Mid Year Expo.
For bonus, if you can be involved in a research that gets published as a manuscript in like Annals of Pharmacotherapy, it would make you stand out with residency programs in academic hospitals.

Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately, I'm a P4 student who will be graduating in May, so it isn't really feasible to do research at this point. Is having research experience critical for being competitive for pretty much all residency programs (even other than those offered by the top academic hospitals)?

 

[deleted562805]

Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately, I'm a P4 student who will be graduating in May, so it isn't really feasible to do research at this point. Is having research experience critical for being competitive for pretty much all residency programs (even other than those offered by the top academic hospitals)?

For all established private residency programs that are not academic hospitals ( I.e. Grady Memorial hospital) clinical research is going to make you stand out due to the increase in competition. If you did not do research, you would be limiting yourself to brand new residency programs, IHS residency programs, the VA health system and Rural hospitals in BFE

 

[Hedgehog32]

For all established private residency programs that are not academic hospitals ( I.e. Grady Memorial hospital) clinical research is going to make you stand out due to the increase in competition. If you did not do research, you would be limiting yourself to brand new residency programs, IHS residency programs, and the VA health system.

Thanks for the info. Just curious, do you happen to know how to tell if a program is new, aside from visiting the website of each program individually?

Also, does anyone know how selective hospitals have gotten when it comes to evaluating the strength (for lack of a better word) of residency programs when it comes to evaluating applicants for positions? I'm just trying to figure out if doing a residency at a new program or at an IHS site is going to make me less marketable when it comes to getting a job afterwards.

BTW, I noticed you distinguished between public and private residency programs that are not academic hospitals. Are programs offered by private, non-academic hospitals considered to be stronger/more well-reputed than programs offered by other types of facilities?

 

[deleted562805]

Thanks for the info. Just curious, do you happen to know how to tell if a program is new, aside from visiting the website of each program individually?

Also, does anyone know how selective hospitals have gotten when it comes to evaluating the strength (for lack of a better word) of residency programs when it comes to evaluating applicants for positions? I'm just trying to figure out if doing a residency at a new program or at an IHS site is going to make me less marketable when it comes to getting a job afterwards.

BTW, I noticed you distinguished between public and private residency programs that are not academic hospitals. Are programs offered by private, non-academic hospitals considered to be stronger/more well-reputed than programs offered by other types of facilities?

For your first question, I would check the ASHP directory website to search for new programs. I do not know the answer to your second question. Your best bet is to ask a pharmacist who has done a residency at IHS.

Yes, but it depends. The hospital I mentioned is well known. Sometimes, a program will make their program competitive based on where their former residents got matched for PGY-2s. I live in Alabama, and the hospitals excluding UAB medical center are just as competitive and are not as famous as Grady memorial. Many of the non academic hospitals usually have only 3 seats, where as large academic hospitals have six seats.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

I believe this is just a rumor at this point, but I've heard the possibility is being tossed around throughout Atlanta-area hospitals.

MCPHS already started a PGY-3 in medication safety. Look it up.

 

[Hels2007]

Also, that's another reason I'm not particularly enthusiastic about doing a residency (assuming I'd be competitive enough to be offered a spot in one anyways). If doing a residency led to the prospect of being able to get a really good pharmacist job in a really desirable area (I.e., the concept of doing extra training for a better deal, to put it colloquially), that would be one thing... but on the contrary, it sounds as if it's gotten to the point where residency program completion is a necessary resume credential to have just to qualify for what would've been considered an entry-level hospital pharmacist job 5+ years ago.

If that is a necessary credential, isn't it MORE of a reason to do it? No one really cares if you are enthusiastic about it or not, but if that's what it takes to get a hospital job now - then that's what it takes. That's like taking pre-reqs - maybe you did not care for some of those classes, but that's what you had to do to get to your end goal which was pharmacy school admission.

What's your backup plan? Say, you DON'T get a hospital job in eight months after graduation and it is now February-March 2021 what will you do? You will be damaged goods when competing with the fresh crop of new grads, whether for jobs or for residency, and even retail will frown upon someone who has been out of a job for that long. So, how early will you start looking for other types of jobs? Or are you willing to risk that your whole investment into your PharmD - three years of time and lots of money - will go down the drain? There are no right or wrong answers here, just answers you can live with and sleep at night.

If you recall, I have paid intern experience and a leadership credit on my CV. Would these two credentials combined with a solidly above-average GPA make me a competitive candidate for residency, in your opinion? Please feel free to be brutally honest and objective.

I have no clue. I have never had any interest in residencies and I don't know what they look for.

 

[Hels2007]

You would need to do clinical research with a preceptor in a hospital that does research in his or her expertise. Not some survey research within school. Almost every one in my class who applied for residency did a research poster for the Mid Year Expo.
For bonus, if you can be involved in a research that gets published as a manuscript in like Annals of Pharmacotherapy, it would make you stand out with residency programs in academic hospitals.

Interesting, how times change. I am pretty sure I was the only one in my class who did research while I was in school. Can't remember how many of us went for residencies, but I think 7-10 people got them, and two of us went for fellowships (both got them) - out of a small class of just over 60.

 

[Hedgehog32]

MCPHS already started a PGY-3 in medication safety. Look it up.

That's crazy... the pharmacists who do that residency are officially spending just as much time in school/residency as someone who becomes an IM or FP physician, assuming they earned a bachelor's degree first.

 

[Hedgehog32]

If that is a necessary credential, isn't it MORE of a reason to do it? No one really cares if you are enthusiastic about it or not, but if that's what it takes to get a hospital job now - then that's what it takes. That's like taking pre-reqs - maybe you did not care for some of those classes, but that's what you had to do to get to your end goal which was pharmacy school admission.

What's your backup plan? Say, you DON'T get a hospital job in eight months after graduation and it is now February-March 2021 what will you do? You will be damaged goods when competing with the fresh crop of new grads, whether for jobs or for residency, and even retail will frown upon someone who has been out of a job for that long. So, how early will you start looking for other types of jobs? Or are you willing to risk that your whole investment into your PharmD - three years of time and lots of money - will go down the drain? There are no right or wrong answers here, just answers you can live with and sleep at night.

I have no clue. I have never had any interest in residencies and I don't know what they look for.

Those are all good points you brought up. The more I think about it, it's not so much that I absolutely have to get a hospital position - it's moreso that I just want to avoid retail. That's one reason I asked you via PM about industry jobs that a new grad might qualify for. I also would consider an LTC position as well. Either way, it's obvious that I need to lend more consideration to doing a residency...

 

[Hedgehog32]

For your first question, I would check the ASHP directory website to search for new programs. I do not know the answer to your second question. Your best bet is to ask a pharmacist who has done a residency at IHS.

Yes, but it depends. The hospital I mentioned is well known. Sometimes, a program will make their program competitive based on where their former residents got matched for PGY-2s. I live in Alabama, and the hospitals excluding UAB medical center are just as competitive and are not as famous as Grady memorial. Many of the non academic hospitals usually have only 3 seats, where as large academic hospitals have six seats.

Sending you a PM, if you don't mind

 

[Hels2007]

Those are all good points you brought up. The more I think about it, it's not so much that I absolutely have to get a hospital position - it's moreso that I just want to avoid retail. That's one reason I asked you via PM about industry jobs that a new grad might qualify for. I also would consider an LTC position as well. Either way, it's obvious that I need to lend more consideration to doing a residency...

Don't think too long... the conference where a lot of people will be meeting with the residency programs starts next week... and then it kicks into high gear soon after.

I think I did respond about industry and agency jobs - start looking at listings now to see how many you see and maybe get in touch with a couple positions just to see if they would consider someone like you, and whether they anticipate having positions open in the summer. Same for LTC jobs.

 

[deleted562805]

Interesting, how times change. I am pretty sure I was the only one in my class who did research while I was in school. Can't remember how many of us went for residencies, but I think 7-10 people got them, and two of us went for fellowships (both got them) - out of a small class of just over 60.

Yep, I just know that the 2018 class above me had 20 students who matched. Out of those 20 students, only 6 did PGY-2s. In 2019 in my class, 30 students got matched for PGY-1.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Don't think too long... the conference where a lot of people will be meeting with the residency programs starts next week... and then it kicks into high gear soon after.

I think I did respond about industry and agency jobs - start looking at listings now to see how many you see and maybe get in touch with a couple positions just to see if they would consider someone like you, and whether they anticipate having positions open in the summer. Same for LTC jobs.

Actually, the other day I did a search on LinkedIn for jobs in medical information/writing/managed care that a new grad might qualify for. Believe it or not, some of the positions actually have had 230+ applications submitted so far during the first few weeks of the positions being posted. I was surprised to see that even more people seem to be applying for those kinds of jobs than for hospital pharmacist positions. I'm guessing the 200+ applications probably include a handful of retail pharmacists looking to escape CVS/Walgreens, as well as non-pharmacist medical professionals.

 

[greenteapanacea]

Actually, the other day I did a search on LinkedIn for jobs in medical information/writing/managed care that a new grad might qualify for. Believe it or not, some of the positions actually have had 230+ applications submitted so far during the first few weeks of the positions being posted. I was surprised to see that even more people seem to be applying for those kinds of jobs than for hospital pharmacist positions. I'm guessing the 200+ applications probably include a handful of retail pharmacists looking to escape CVS/Walgreens, as well as non-pharmacist medical professionals.

Don't get discouraged by those numbers. LinkedIn includes anybody who even starts the application as an "applicant". Obviously, a lot of people don't necessarily complete those applications, and another handful are not qualified.

 

[Hels2007]

If those positions on LinkedIn are marked as "Easy apply", then all it takes to apply, sometimes, is attaching your resume and clicking one or two other multiple choice questions. Those always have a ton of applicants because it is so easy to do.

 

[Hedgehog32]

For those of who have completed residencies (@Pharmacy is a Scam), is it true that pretty much all residency programs require their residents to work 7 days/week (in addition to projects they have to work on independently)? Do they really not get any days off each month?

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

For those of who have completed residencies (@Pharmacy is a Scam), is it true that pretty much all residency programs require their residents to work 7 days/week (in addition to projects they have to work on independently)? Do they really not get any days off each month?

Negative. Usually it would be something like 5 days/week plus staffing every other weekend, maybe even once a month. And it also depends what rotation you’re on.

This isn’t medical residency where you are on call 24/7 and therefore sleep in the hospital and get no days off ever.

 

[spacecowgirl]

As a person who both completed a residency and was a site director, no. Not at all. 40-50 hours/week.

 

[Hedgehog32]

Negative. Usually it would be something like 5 days/week plus staffing every other weekend, maybe even once a month. And it also depends what rotation you’re on.

This isn’t medical residency where you are on call 24/7 and therefore sleep in the hospital and get no days off ever.

Ironically enough, at most of the residencies in the southeast (GA/AL), it seems like working 7 days a week is unfortunately the norm. I know it probably sounds lazy, but that's probably one of the main reasons I'm not really wanting to do a residency. I remember how $h*55y I would feel after working 7-10 days in a row while also dealing with school/studying/project outside of work during my P3 year, and I would just honestly rather not put myself through that again. What makes me even more discouraged is the fact that doing a residency will apparently (based on what I've been told during my conversations with recruiters and DOPs over the last few weeks) only give me the bare-minimum eligibility for an entry-level staffing job. In other words, it's an example of more training =/= better-than-entry-level-opportunities. I guess that's just the nature of the pharmacist job market right now, though.

 

[Hedgehog32]

As a person who both completed a residency and was a site director, no. Not at all. 40-50 hours/week.

Do you mind if I ask what region of the US you're in? Apparently, many of the hospitals here in the southeast are taking advantage of residents as cheap labor. Like a pharmacist at my rotation site who used to work at the hospital I was an intern (which also has a residency program) -- "they basically used them as cheap pharmacists"

 

[El Trombopag]

N of 1, but I was floored when my director said we only had a handful of non-foreign applicants for a full time, day shift, inpatient pharmacist job. It was posted about a month ago. None were bcps, none had residencies, only a couple of out of staters even had hospital experience. We went with a new grad (well, graduated last May). We’re a little out of the way, but not completely undesirable. Tourist town really, population around 30-50k, 2 hours from a major metropolitan area. I don’t understand, I really expected more/better applicants. It was on indeed.

 

[Hedgehog32]

N of 1, but I was floored when my director said we only had a handful of non-foreign applicants for a full time, day shift, inpatient pharmacist job. It was posted about a month ago. None were bcps, none had residencies, only a couple of out of staters even had hospital experience. We went with a new grad (well, graduated last May). We’re a little out of the way, but not completely undesirable. Tourist town really, population around 30-50k, 2 hours from a major metropolitan area. I don’t understand, I really expected more/better applicants. It was on indeed.

I'm surprised to hear that you didn't receive applications from more experienced, residency-trained pharmacists, especially since my conversations with recruiters and hospital pharmacy personnel have led me to believe that there's no shortage of competition for hospital jobs even in BFE locales. Do you mind if I ask what region of the US you're in? Feel free to PM me if you'd prefer.

 

[BidingMyTime]

N of 1, but I was floored when my director said we only had a handful of non-foreign applicants for a full time, day shift, inpatient pharmacist job. It was posted about a month ago. None were bcps, none had residencies, only a couple of out of staters even had hospital experience. We went with a new grad (well, graduated last May). We’re a little out of the way, but not completely undesirable. Tourist town really, population around 30-50k, 2 hours from a major metropolitan area. I don’t understand, I really expected more/better applicants. It was on indeed.

That is surprising. Does your hospital have high-turnover, financial issues, or anything else that might have scared away applicants?

 

[spacecowgirl]

I'm in the Midwest.

 

[Hedgehog32]

I'm in the Midwest.

Just curious, do you happen to know if your hospital (or those in your area) ever hire new graduates who didn't complete residencies for any positions?

 

[spacecowgirl]

No. Not in 2019. Everything in my state is requiring 2+ years of pharmacist experience or at least at PGY1. Even for staffing.

 

[njac]

Here's a brief update for anyone who's been following this thread. A few days ago, I talked to a recruiter who works with a fairly large hospital network in the southwest. She said that the job market has gotten so competitive in states like AZ that when she posted a job opening last Tuesday for a standard inpatient hospital pharmacy staffing position, they received over 40 applications for it overnight. Since at least 5 or 6 of those applicants had completed PGY-2 residencies, she said that choosing which applicant to hire was "basically going to be a crapshoot" unless one of the applicants really fumbles their interview.

This was for a rather large metro city in the southwest. While they don't receive quite as many applicants for positions posted for hospitals in smaller towns, even the middle-of-nowhere positions are receiving totals of 30+ applicants (including at least a handful of residency program graduates). She recommended that I either complete a PGY-2 and gain at least 2-3 years of experience elsewhere before applying to positions posted for their metro hospitals or consider transitioning into another career entirely (she actually suggested looking into PA school -- no, I am not kidding but I wish I was). I feel basically the same way about going back to school to get another degree as I do about completing a residency, though.

Banner? Seems like they’ve bought up half the hospitals in Arizona.


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[njac]

For those of who have completed residencies (@Pharmacy is a Scam), is it true that pretty much all residency programs require their residents to work 7 days/week (in addition to projects they have to work on independently)? Do they really not get any days off each month?

No.

There’s wide variation between residencies.

My PGY-1 was 11-on, 3-off. I worked at a hospital where our PGY-1s staffed one weekend per month.

My PGY-2 was no staffing but had overnight on-call. I would work 2 Saturday’s a month (24hr 8a-8a)


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[Hedgehog32]

Banner? Seems like they’ve bought up half the hospitals in Arizona.


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Yeah, it was Banner. Apparently even their rural/overnight positions are getting applications from both experienced pharmacists as well as residency graduates.

No.

There’s wide variation between residencies.

My PGY-1 was 11-on, 3-off. I worked at a hospital where our PGY-1s staffed one weekend per month.

My PGY-2 was no staffing but had overnight on-call. I would work 2 Saturday’s a month (24hr 8a-8a)


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Was the 11-on/3-off schedule rough? Back when I had a hospital intern job during my P3 year, I remember how exhausted I'd feel after sometimes working 7 days in a row (then again, I was also trying to exercise and go out to eat most days of the week as well). The hospital I worked as an intern at makes their residents do staffing work every other weekend in addition to all the projects they have to work on during their own time, and that's honestly the kind of schedule/arrangement I can't bring myself to want to sign up for.

 

[Hels2007]

I worked 12/2 when I was doing my fellowship, because I worked every other weekend at Walgreens to supplement my stipend. So it was 9-10 hours a day at the fellowship site five days a week, every other weekend in retail, and then I also had teaching responsibilities for which I prepared on my own time, plus committee responsibilities, also on my own time. Can't say I felt terribly oppressed, I still found time to go out and explore NYC and participate in my hobbies. And it was only one year.

In fact, I distinctly remember having more energy and more time to do everything I needed to do that is not "fun" (like cleaning) when I was superbusy (such as during the fellowship or when I did my master's while working full time) than when all I did was one full-time job and a retail shift every month or two. After all, humans did not evolve to be idle. If I was meant to live like a sea cucumber, I would have been born one.

 

[Hedgehog32]

I worked 12/2 when I was doing my fellowship, because I worked every other weekend at Walgreens to supplement my stipend. So it was 9-10 hours a day at the fellowship site five days a week, every other weekend in retail, and then I also had teaching responsibilities for which I prepared on my own time, plus committee responsibilities, also on my own time. Can't say I felt terribly oppressed, I still found time to go out and explore NYC and participate in my hobbies. And it was only one year.

In fact, I distinctly remember having more energy and more time to do everything I needed to do that is not "fun" (like cleaning) when I was superbusy (such as during the fellowship or when I did my master's while working full time) than when all I did was one full-time job and a retail shift every month or two. After all, humans did not evolve to be idle. If I was meant to live like a sea cucumber, I would have been born one.

I'm surprised the 12/2 work schedule didn't weigh you down any. Maybe I'm just lazy, or possibly not motivated by the right reasons to be considering applying to residencies.

 

[Hels2007]

I'm surprised the 12/2 work schedule didn't weigh you down any. Maybe I'm just lazy, or possibly not motivated by the right reasons to be considering applying to residencies.

It probably is the motivation issue. I *enjoyed* the work I was doing for my fellowship, and I had fun teaching and didn't mind other responsibilities and retail was something I was extremely comfortable with. Attitude does matter. I personally find whining and complaining exhausting even if I do it just sitting on the couch (which is why I don't do it very often!).

 

[gwarm01]

MCPHS already started a PGY-3 in medication safety. Look it up.

You better know your tallman lettering inside and out after a PGY3 in medication safety.

 

[spacecowgirl]

I was motivated by having better opportunities after residency and it's paid off in spades for me. YMMV but I did it to hedge my bets and I never regretted putting in one year to benefit 40 years of a career. I was a nontraditional student as well so I get not wanting to train longer, but I don't think your idea of no life, working nonstop, no fun is accurate. You mention a surgery and as a new hire, your pto and fmla is limited, residency or not.

 

[Hedgehog32]

It probably is the motivation issue. I *enjoyed* the work I was doing for my fellowship, and I had fun teaching and didn't mind other responsibilities and retail was something I was extremely comfortable with. Attitude does matter. I personally find whining and complaining exhausting even if I do it just sitting on the couch (which is why I don't do it very often!).

I was motivated by having better opportunities after residency and it's paid off in spades for me. YMMV but I did it to hedge my bets and I never regretted putting in one year to benefit 40 years of a career. I was a nontraditional student as well so I get not wanting to train longer, but I don't think your idea of no life, working nonstop, no fun is accurate. You mention a surgery and as a new hire, your pto and fmla is limited, residency or not.

I think that makes it so hard for me to get motivated to want to do a residency is because of everything I'm hearing about how even pharmacists who have completed residencies are having a hard time finding positions (including the majority of the most recent group of residency program graduates who completed the program at the hospital I used to work as an intern at). I have always been a very risk-averse person who gets really anxious during scenarios like these, which is one of the reasons I went ahead and decided to get in touch with hospitals, recruiters, and staffing agencies so far ahead of time. I guess it's just going to come down whether I want to do the residency badly enough to put myself through one (assuming I'd even get offered a spot somewhere), if I have the guts to risk trying to get a job without completing one first, or if I want to consider pivoting into another profession entirely that might not be as saturated.

 

[Hels2007]

I get the whole risk-averse mindset, I am that way myself - but you are already three years too late being "risk averse". The pharmacy gravy train has left the station circa 2008. Anyone who applied to pharmacy school after 2010 and calls themselves risk-averse is playing ostrich. You either have to go all out and do whatever it takes to increase your chances to get a job you would like or at least wouldn't hate, or accept that you are on shaky ground and start putting a solid Plan B (and plan C, and plan D) in place.

I don't know if there are low-risk jobs out there except for government ones.

 

[Hedgehog32]

I get the whole risk-averse mindset, I am that way myself - but for you it's already three years into being in a high-risk position. The pharmacy gravy train has left the station circa 2008. Anyone who applied to pharmacy school after 2010 cannot be truly honest with themselves when calling themselves risk-averse. That's just playing ostrich. You either have to go all out and do whatever it takes to increase your chances to get a job you would like, or accept that you are placing yourself on very shaky ground and start putting a solid Plan B (and plan C, and plan D) in place.

I don't know if there are low-risk jobs out there except for government ones.

I think that one reason I thought I'd be better off than most pharmacy grads is because of the intern position I held at a hospital that (until last year) still hired its interns into less desirable second/third shift positions, prior to instituting a residency grads-only policy in 2019. My family has also known some of the management-level pharmacists at that hospital for years, so I kind of had hoped that the whole "who you know" thing would work out in my favor.

At this point, I'm not sure what I'm going to do. When 7 out of 10 of the residents who graduated back in June from a program in a relatively undesirable region (you've looked it up, so you know I'm not exaggerating, LOL) still haven't found jobs after 6+ months of having finished the residency program, it paints such a bleak picture of the future and makes it so hard to get motivated because I know the odds of me finding a job even after completing a PGY-1 will be slim, and that's even if I'm willing to apply to positions in rural areas (based on what I've learned talking to recruiters and pharmacy directors at hospitals in those areas).

Ironically enough, a pharmacist at my rotation site flat-out offered to write me an LOR for PA school applications, and I did a brief bit of research and learned that there are a handful of programs that don't require applicants to submit GRE scores, so maybe it's worth throwing a Hail Mary and applying to see what happens. I fully expect that the PA job market will be saturated eventually, but as it stands now, I can do a search on Indeed or LinkedIn for PA jobs in decent-sized cities and return 3-5 pages worth of jobs, whereas searches for pharmacist jobs in those same areas return maybe 2-4 positions total, so I think their job market is still a ways off from reaching critical saturation. I guess it could be worth applying to a few programs, even if just to potentially give myself another option.

 

[spacecowgirl]

I didn't do a residency because I wanted to do a residency any more than I had kids because I wanted to not sleep for 2 years straight. It's about playing the long game. Your concerns about finding a job even after a residency are well founded. It sucks, it isn't fair. But you have to play the hand you were dealt. I can't figure out why you'd consider PA school over a residency. That makes the majority of the story you're telling yourself invalid. There are good reasons not to do a residency but the fact remains that this is the market and you'll have a hard time getting the job you want, made even harder by trying to do it without a residency. Again, it's crap, but here we are.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

This subject has been beaten to death for the OP and quite frankly the pushback and stubbornness he is still giving already tells me he won’t be a good residency candidate. No offense dude but you need grit and toughness to survive in today’s job market, and if you don’t have the right mindset going into a residency you probably won’t perform well in it anyways. You have the facts on hand and onus is on you to make your own decisions. If you’re just shopping around on online forums until you hear something you like, then you are doing yourself a disservice.

 

[Hedgehog32]

I didn't do a residency because I wanted to do a residency any more than I had kids because I wanted to not sleep for 2 years straight. It's about playing the long game. Your concerns about finding a job even after a residency are well founded. It sucks, it isn't fair. But you have to play the hand you were dealt. I can't figure out why you'd consider PA school over a residency. That makes the majority of the story you're telling yourself invalid. There are good reasons not to do a residency but the fact remains that this is the market and you'll have a hard time getting the job you want, made even harder by trying to do it without a residency. Again, it's crap, but here we are.

I agree that on the surface it doesn't make sense to consider spending 2+ years in PA school but not the same amount of time completing a pharmacy residency. I think the best way to summarize my reasoning is like this: even if I completed a PGY-1 and PGY-2 (assuming I'd even match somewhere in the first place), there's a good chance I'd still have a hard time competing for jobs even in small rural towns, as my recent conversations with recruiters and hospital DOPs have indicated. I would be willing to take a hospital staffing position in the middle of nowhere as a new grad to gain experience, but for some I just don't think I can get behind the notion of doing a residency just to end up in that same position. In other words, having to take a relatively undesirable job in a rural locale as an inexperienced new grad is one thing, but being lucky to get that same relatively undesirable job as a residency program grad just sucks to me for some reason.

To put it another way, I do not live in what you'd call a desirable area (@Hels2007 can vouch for this, as I have divulged my location to her via PM). I'm from a medium-sized city in the southeast with one of the lowest median per capita incomes and possibly the highest property crimes rate of any medium-sized city in the US. Even though I don't mind continuing to live here for the short-term while I finish school (since I'm at least getting to save money by living at home w/ my family), I had hoped to eventually move to somewhere nicer.

... But here's the catch: my city basically sucks on an objective level, and yet as stated in a prior post, the vast majority of the most recent group of local residency program graduates (7 out of 10) can't find ANYTHING here, because even this crappy town's job market is saturated. So even by completing a residency, the odds would still be against me finding something even in a relatively undesirable city like this one. In other words, I'd be lucky to complete a PGY-1, get several years of experience in a middle-of-nowhere town, and maybe after all that be competitive for a position in my hometown.

I think the best way to describe my lack of motivation is to simply say that the best-case employment scenario that I could hope for after completing a residency is still not something I'd personally be happy with long term. Or in other words, the challenge of doing a residency just doesn't seem to be worth what I could realistically expect to get out of it.

I realize that I should have considered how I'd cope with this kind of scenario BEFORE I had started pharmacy school, but I was one of those foolish, naive applicants who insisted that it would never get "that bad," and yet that's exactly what ended up happening. So as @Pharmacy is a Scam said, I guess all I can do at this point is determine whether I'm willing to put in the grit and determination to do all I can to make myself as competitive as possible in light of what the job market has become, or do something else entirely.

 

[Hedgehog32]

This subject has been beaten to death for the OP and quite frankly the pushback and stubbornness he is still giving already tells me he won’t be a good residency candidate. No offense dude but you need grit and toughness to survive in today’s job market, and if you don’t have the right mindset going into a residency you probably won’t perform well in it anyways. You have the facts on hand and onus is on you to make your own decisions. If you’re just shopping around on online forums until you hear something you like, then you are doing yourself a disservice.

Please see what I posted in my post just above this one; in a risk vs. reward sense, it's basically a case of me having a hard time considering the most realistic payoff of doing a residency to be worth the effort and sacrifice it would take (and this is assuming I would even get a residency position somewhere in the first place).

Even though I really am not looking forward to the prospect of doing 2 more years of school to become a PA, the reason that alternative path honestly sounds more appealing than doing a residency is simply because there's a much greater likelihood that me busting my butt to be an excellent PA (or whatever) student is more likely to lead to an overall life situation I'd be happy with for the long-term than what I'd get from busting my butt for the next 2 years as a PGY-1 and PGY-2 resident.

So even though both pathways would take approximately 2 years to navigate, the 2 years spent pursuing the PA pathway *seem* like they would result in a more substantial payoff relative to the stability and long-term location flexibility I want out of a career, assuming that the PA profession's job market isn't already close to being decimated a la pharmacy.

 

[student089]

Why consider PA if there are other options rather than hospital? Whats about retail, independent, LTC,...? Why wasting money if you could have made money using your pharmacy degree? Your intern experience will be a plus once you work as a pharmacist, then apply to hospital moving forward.
I think you should worry how to get a job after graduated, or applying for residency. PA is a bad move imo, adding more debt for no reason.

Sent from my SM-G960U using SDN mobile

 

[Hedgehog32]

Why consider PA if there are other options rather than hospital? Whats about retail, independent, LTC,...? Why wasting money if you could have made money using your pharmacy degree? Your intern experience will be a plus once you work as a pharmacist, then apply to hospital moving forward.
I think you should worry how to get a job after graduated, or applying for residency. PA is a bad move imo, adding more debt for no reason.

Sent from my SM-G960U using SDN mobile

I agree that PA school might not be the smartest move; at this point, it's merely a consideration for a possible plan B career. I'm honestly just not interested in retail (including independent) pharmacy. I am open to LTC positions but I've heard those are next to impossible to get as well.

The only statement in your post that I might consider disputing is where you said that I could have a shot at hospital jobs after getting pharmacist work experience in a different setting; apparently, some hospitals are starting to require residency completion even for staffing positions, whereas hospital experience (but without the residency credential attached to it) is effectively worthless.

 

[Blue2midnight]

I agree that PA school might not be the smartest move; at this point, it's merely a consideration for a possible plan B career. I'm honestly just not interested in retail (including independent) pharmacy. I am open to LTC positions but I've heard those are next to impossible to get as well.

The only statement in your post that I might consider disputing is where you said that I could have a shot at hospital jobs after getting pharmacist work experience in a different setting; apparently, some hospitals are starting to require residency completion even for staffing positions, whereas hospital experience (but without the residency credential attached to it) is effectively worthless.

Is how you’ve rationalized not doing a residency or doing anything pharmacy related unless you get it the way you want to get it also how you rationalized your decision to go to pharmacy school?

Some of the pharmacists that I know that don’t have jobs or only have per diem gigs made their own bed. One refused to take a job away from family. Another one is actually an awful worker and creates a toxic work environment. So it’s no surprise they don’t have jobs. I’m not saying it’s like this for everyone but no one’s going to go out there and admit “oh yeah. My personality and work ethic sucks, no wonder no one wants to hire me”

 

[Hedgehog32]

Is how you’ve rationalized not doing a residency or doing anything pharmacy related unless you get it the way you want to get it also how you rationalized your decision to go to pharmacy school?

Some of the pharmacists that I know that don’t have jobs or only have per diem gigs made their own bed. One refused to take a job away from family. Another one is actually an awful worker and creates a toxic work environment. So it’s no surprise they don’t have jobs. I’m not saying it’s like this for everyone but no one’s going to go out there and admit “oh yeah. My personality and work ethic sucks, no wonder no one wants to hire me”

I can assure you that my work ethic doesn't suck, as I worked as an intern for a local hospital network since my P2 year up until last week (was fired along with the other interns) and never turned down any shifts I was asked to work, including holidays and weekends. I also doubt it's my personality, as I was asked to work shifts in virtually every pharmacy (both inpatient and outpatient settings) owned by the hospital network, and the manager who gave me the firing phone call last week told me that any of the managers would be happy to give me a favorable LOR for residency or job applications.

On the contrary, the reason I'm considering pivoting away from pharmacy and pursuing a different profession altogether is because I *am* actually making it clear to hospital DOPs & recruiters that I'm willing to be flexible, go essentially anywhere, and work any shift, and yet the people I'm talking to are being brutally honest with me and letting me know that I'd have a very hard time getting a job at one of their rural facilities even if I completed a residency simply because of the sheer volume of highly-qualified applicants. I wish I could say I was exaggerating here, but if you don't believe me, I would be happy to PM you the contact information for the recruiters/DOPs I've spoken with if you'd like to get in touch with them. Even the DOP at a hospital in Bethel, AK said she was surprised that they received a handful of applications from experienced pharmacists for the most recent position they posted.

So it's not that I'm not willing to be flexible here; moreover, it's the dilemma that even though I AM willing to be flexible and accommodating to employers, the odds of me finding a job apparently even in BFE would be slim. Again, I didn't develop this perception or outlook until after speaking with numerous professionals involved in pharmacy personnel hiring that I've gotten in touch with over the last few months. In other words, even if I complete a residency and bust my butt working just as hard as I did when I was juggling both intern shifts and studying/projects for school, the simple odds are that I'll still end up being unemployed for an extended period of time, just like the seven local residency program graduates from last June who haven't found anything yet.

FWIW, it was the recruiter for the large AZ hospital system who suggested I look into PA school instead of doing a residency.

 

[student089]

Pharmacy experience as a pharmacist is important, no matter what. Some hospitals might start require residency for staffing, but not all of them. If you are single and ready to move around, you will get opportunity. You can highlight your intern experience in cover letter and apply everywhere. (I was an intern in both retail and inpatient too.)
And I don't know why those recruiters said that, but the ppl I know who did residency have no problem to land a job. FYI

 

[Hedgehog32]

Pharmacy experience as a pharmacist is important, no matter what. Some hospitals might start require residency for staffing, but not all of them. If you are single and ready to move around, you will get opportunity. You can highlight your intern experience in cover letter and apply everywhere. (I was an intern in both retail and inpatient too.)
And I don't know why those recruiters said that, but the ppl I know who did residency have no problem to land a job. FYI

I had hoped I'd be able to get a staffing position without having completed a residency as well, but apparently many hospitals have recently started requiring residency as a resume credential to qualify for these positions, even just within the past year or so (this is the case with the hospital I interned at). I know it sounds like I must be exaggerating at least a little bit, but I have contacted hospitals and recruiting/staffing agencies in every region of the US over the last few months and have basically been told the same thing, which is either that completion of residency is now a requirement for hiring consideration, or that at least 2 years of hospital pharmacist work experience is required.

The recruiter I talked to who works for a large hospital network in the southwest said they received over 40 applications, including many from residency-trained grads and experienced pharmacists, within 10-12 hours of posting a pharmacist position about two weeks ago. This is for a hospital just outside of Phoenix, AZ. They said their rural hospitals aren't receiving quite as many applications, but that they're still receiving enough to be able to mandate residency completion as a criterion for hiring consideration.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

I can assure you that my work ethic doesn't suck, as I worked as an intern for a local hospital network since my P2 year up until last week (was fired along with the other interns)

Fired? So there’s more to your story that meets the eye... sounds like a red flag to me.

Also, keep in mind that while jobs outsourced to staffing agencies are likely the hard to fill jobs (which is why an organization would even bother to use a third party to recruit, rather than simply posting their position online), these are also the jobs that are probably getting the most applicants, because they’d be getting the “everyone who wants anything, anywhere in the country” type of applicant who won’t be applying to “regular” jobs. This is not to say that “regular” jobs are any less competitive than jobs posted by a staffing agency, but in my opinion you’d have a more favorable hit-or-miss rate by applying to “regular” jobs because they are less visible to other job seekers than the ones staffing agencies try to fill (which EVERYONE will be told about). It’s a simple concept: the number of qualified candidates gunning for a job is irrelevant if the majority of them don’t hear about the job to begin with.