Last AOA match!

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Yeah this will mainly affect psych and FM residents. Affect won’t take place until 2020 though, so current interns may squeeze by if they take level3 this year.
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Few questions (asked this in the ortho thread but will also ask here because likely more views):

So basically there are 20 initially accredited DO ortho programs as of Jan 2019, and of the programs finding out this week only Doctors in Columbus was added to the list of accredited programs.

For the programs still trying to get accredited will they be able to take residents in the 2020 match if they have not received ACGME initial accreditation?

Will AOA still accredit these programs post 2020?

Is this the last class that falls under the "no resident left behind" clause that will protect residents of AOA programs until 2025? Or is this the class of 2019.

I have heard mixed statements regarding these issues.
 
Ibn Alnafis MD said:
Yeah this will mainly affect psych and FM residents. Affect won’t take place until 2020 though, so current interns may squeeze by if they take level3 this year.
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Another reason to never return to CA
 
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Mad Jack said:
I guess that all comes down to whether you think someone needs a full residency to safely be a physician. As military GMO positions demonstrate, there is at least some utility in internship trained physicians. And as physician assistants and nurse practitioners demonstrate, one can certainly function with far fewer clinical hours and years of training independently.
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I think we can agree to disagree on both those accounts. There may be some "utility" but that falls far short of being able to practice safely. Those who’ve done a GMO will tell you that it was a great learning experience with the steep curve, however after subsequent residency training they will also tell you, if they’re honest, how little they actually knew. I’ve never met a single person who didn’t realize at the end of residency how much more there was to know.

And then there are the positions outside of "normal" medicine that require a medical license, such as clinical research trials, basic physicals for plasma centers, etc, where board certification is probably overkill. Could probably get away with doing cosmetic botox injections or vitamin infusions for hangovers like any midlevel hack could.
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Botox injections can actually be dangerous with possible permanent nerve damage a potential complication. I would not say that any "midlevel hack" could be doing them (the fact that they are doing them is a different problem for. different thread). I had a Botox injection by a BC plastic surgeon and ended up with a mild case of fortunately temporary ptosis. An NP I know who works in another plastic practice had *no idea* how to fix it despite “being trained” to do them (I ran into her randomly, did not seek out her advise).

That being said, I think there is a role for limited licensure for those who don't finish residency and limit practice to doing things like you've mentioned. They do not need to be BC.

I guess it's one of those areas where I'm fine with letting the market decide. Insurers won't reimburse for physician services that are billed by non-board eligible individuals, which limits a lot of the damage that can be done, and malpractice exists to catch anyone who decides to cast too broad a net with their scope of practice. If a big enough problem arises, the law will deal with it. We've been giving intern-trained physicians licenses for around a century without issue though, so my guess? Things are fine.
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False/SDN fallacy. While some insurers may choose to do that, I have a partner who is not BC nor BE and is on every plan we take, and is reimbursed at the same rate as the rest of us. What she can't do is operate any more, which is fine with her (and us).

Just because we've been giving interns unrestricted licenses for a century or so, I wouldn't say its "without issue". There are plenty of documented cases about PGY1 only trained doctors doing harm, not being able to handle the complexities of patient presentations, etc. A practice in vogue in the days of Flexner isn't necessarily the best SOP for our times, IMHO.
 
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BorntobeDO? said:
Heck no. If an NP with less than 6 months of FT clinical shadowing can prescribe narcotics then there is no way that a MD/DO should be required to wait till the end of residency. Clearly no one gives 2 craps about how much extra training we have, since NPs and PA's are allowed to do so much, with much less training. Raising an extra imaginary moat against our own while allowing every NP in the back door is stupid.
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I totally agree that their training is inadequate and is inappropriate in almost all cases for them to be able to prescribe most things especially controlled substances.

However in the fight against this it does us no good to claim that extra training is needed and say, “except us”. We cannot claim that medical school and residency is required to practice safely and then turn around and say that only one year is needed. It’s either one or the other.
 
BorntobeDO? said:
So in the commonwealth countries like Australia where USDO's now have full practice, do they get to use MD like you do here with your MBBS?
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No. In those countries MD is an advanced research degree.

For example in Australia the requirements, if I recall correctly, are that you must havebeen in practice for several years and produce a dissertation a kin to a PhD level. So using the MD without having completed those requirements would be seen as unethical because it’s completely different than how we use it.
 
Winged Scapula said:
No. In those countries MD is an advanced research degree.

For example in Australia the requirements, if I recall correctly, are that you must havebeen in practice for several years and produce a dissertation a kin to a PhD level. So using the MD without having completed those requirements would be seen as unethical because it’s completely different than how we use it.
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Unethical? I disagree. Even without a token dissertation the most equivalent degree is in fact, an MD, whereas a DO represents something completely different than what we do in the US. Its no more unethical than an MBBS claiming they are MD here for clarity.
 
BorntobeDO? said:
Interesting. And yet you have no qualms calling yourself a MD. No double standard at all.
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What's the deal with the vitriol? I'm not trying to hide or obscure anything.

The degree is totally different. The MBBS is a terminal medical degree as is MD or DO. I have completed the requirements for the terminal medical degree regardless of which country you are talking about.

The MD in Commonwealth countries is not the terminal degree, its an advanced degree. When I work in Australia, I use MBBS; when I work here I use MD.

Its pretty simple.
 
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Winged Scapula said:
What's the deal with the vitriol? I'm not trying to hide or obscure anything.

The degree is totally different. The MBBS is a terminal medical degree as is MD or DO. I have completed the requirements for the terminal medical degree regardless of which country you are talking about.

The MD in Commonwealth countries is not the terminal degree, its an advanced degree. When I work in Australia, I use MBBS; when I work here I use MD.

Its pretty simple.
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Apologies, I obviously misunderstood the degree equivalence as you can see from the edited post. I agree that the original had a bit of vitriol, hence why I changed it prior to your posting a reply. The edited post more accurately addresses what I was thinking rather than giving a quip.

Just for my curiosity, are you able to see the original edit even after changes as a admin or did you just happen to catch it in the 1 minute it was up before I changed it?

So then my question would be related to advertising as a MBBS equivalent rather than MD.
 
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AlbinoHawk DO said:
Because **** psych and their ability to moonlight early on... I mean, patient safety
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This unfortunately got buried... but you triggered a good memory...
BreakableBelatedArabianhorse-mobile.jpg


For those who have no clue about the reference (warning: Link has bad language):
 
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If anybody wants to start driving the perc bus HMU. Got pain, we come to YOU! No MRI required
 
alprazoslam said:
If anybody wants to start driving the perc bus HMU. Got pain, we come to YOU! No MRI required
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Your advertisement is weak.

Current pain guys got you beat by a mile.

Nowadays, they’re offering the Fluoroscopy Suite Bus HMU to all pts w/ BMI > 30 c/o of back pain.

Great gig to make tons of $$$ if you dgaf about moral values.
 
DNC127 said:
Few questions (asked this in the ortho thread but will also ask here because likely more views):

So basically there are 20 initially accredited DO ortho programs as of Jan 2019, and of the programs finding out this week only Doctors in Columbus was added to the list of accredited programs.

For the programs still trying to get accredited will they be able to take residents in the 2020 match if they have not received ACGME initial accreditation?

Will AOA still accredit these programs post 2020?

Is this the last class that falls under the "no resident left behind" clause that will protect residents of AOA programs until 2025? Or is this the class of 2019.

I have heard mixed statements regarding these issues.
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Its obviously in the ortho programs best interest to do what ever it takes to get accreditation so they can have residents to work instead of paying full time physicain salaries so I think eventually the majority of those programs will be fine. Is there a date that all programs have to meet or else they are gone?
 
Hey OP, goodluck to you come 2/4! I'm a 3rd year applying ortho next cycle, setting up auditions rn. What's your opinion on doing 2 2-week rotations? Is this too little time, or have you generally gotten positive feedback feeling like you made a good impression on the residents/attendings for them to rank you?

Also, is it a general consensus that more AOA programs are going to require you to rotate at a program for them to give you an interview?

Thanks in advance! bless up
 
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paradoxshift said:
Hey OP, goodluck to you come 2/4! I'm a 3rd year applying ortho next cycle, setting up auditions rn. What's your opinion on doing 2 2-week rotations? Is this too little time, or have you generally gotten positive feedback feeling like you made a good impression on the residents/attendings for them to rank you?

Also, is it a general consensus that more AOA programs are going to require you to rotate at a program for them to give you an interview?

Thanks in advance! bless up
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South pointe only does 2 weeks, other programs prefer 4 weeks. I did three 4 week rotations and three 2 week rotations. It’s rare to get interviews at places you don’t rotate. So seriously go into this realizing you may only get 4-5 interviews.

The only places I would feel comfortable doing 2 weeks are South Pointe, OSU, Toledo, and Riverside if the PD calls you.

Everyone still prefers 4 weeks though!

I was able to make a good enough impression in my 2 weeks to get interviews. I.e. during my two weeks I took q2-3 call and worked the weekends.
 
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electrolight said:
South pointe only does 2 weeks, other programs prefer 4 weeks. I did three 4 week rotations and three 2 week rotations. It’s rare to get interviews at places you don’t rotate. So seriously go into this realizing you may only get 4-5 interviews.

The only places I would feel comfortable doing 2 weeks are South Pointe, OSU, Toledo, and Riverside if the PD calls you.

Everyone still prefers 4 weeks though!

I was able to make a good enough impression in my 2 weeks to get interviews. I.e. during my two weeks I took q2-3 call and worked the weekends.
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Makes sense, good point about expecting few number of interviews.

Riverside is actually one of the places I am deciding between whether I should rotate there or rotate somewhere closer to home (east coast) since that's my goal but not sure what places are cooler with 2-week rotations.

Thanks for the insight on how you made a good impression, I'll be sure to do that
 
Okay, who’s ready? This has been the longest weekend of my life.
 
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Looking forward to this one tonight. Go get it 2019!
 
MATCHED! Headed to Pitt! Anyone else headed there?
 
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They went out at 6:40. Very interested to hear what specialties y’all ended up in.
 
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So excited for you all! Best of luck!
 
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6 ortho matches so far at KCU on our Facebook page (5 AOA 1 military).

Edit: another AOA ortho. So 7 ortho matches total so far
 
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Dr.Bruh said:
6 ortho matches so far at KCU on our Facebook page (5 AOA 1 military).
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I heard you guys had like 15 applying. Is that true or over hyped?
 
DNC127 said:
I heard you guys had like 15 applying. Is that true or over hyped?
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No idea. I’m not in the 4th year class so I barely know anybody. But this class does seems nuts. Already and optho and two Uro matches and I do know 2 in that class applying acgme derm this year each with like 9-10 interviews. So definitely looking forward to seeing the final match results.
 
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Oh_Gee said:
comlex goes up that high?
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Last year (the 2019ers) the comlex was inflated by 50 points. So those that normally would score around 800 scored 850. Technically the comlex goes all the way up to 1000 is what I've been told by a PD who got an application with a 9xx score this year, but I've calculated that a score in class of 2020 of approx 800 is roughly the top 5 score in the country. Therefore several people may have above 800 but it's VERY few, and they may have all the way up to 1000.
 
FourniersGreenGang said:
Last year (the 2019ers) the comlex was inflated by 50 points. So those that normally would score around 800 scored 850. Technically the comlex goes all the way up to 1000 is what I've been told by a PD who got an application with a 9xx score this year, but I've calculated that a score in class of 2020 of approx 800 is roughly the top 5 score in the country. Therefore several people may have above 800 but it's VERY few, and they may have all the way up to 1000.
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At the higher ends of comlex the score discrepancy increases. This years 750 is more like an 850 and 800 like 900.

That’s why the 260 usmle people last year got 800s a lot and we had lots of people this year get sub 700 make 255-260+.

Also why comsae was way off this year lol I got 900+ on one of them but didn’t break 8 on the real deal even tho I got 270+ on usmle.


More reason why usmle is >>>>> it actually stays almost the same.


I feel bad for those that only took comlex applying to acgme stuff this year. A lot of places have 500 550 cutoff and that was hard to get this past year. A 550 in co 2020 was a damn good score. In 2019 it was nothing. Acgme pds DONT know the scores vary year by year And it matters when they try to compare to USMLE. A lot of acgme places think anything below 500 is caveman status


Nbome is a bunch of dumb fools
 
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FourniersGreenGang said:
Last year (the 2019ers) the comlex was inflated by 50 points. So those that normally would score around 800 scored 850. Technically the comlex goes all the way up to 1000 is what I've been told by a PD who got an application with a 9xx score this year, but I've calculated that a score in class of 2020 of approx 800 is roughly the top 5 score in the country. Therefore several people may have above 800 but it's VERY few, and they may have all the way up to 1000.
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alprazoslam said:
At the higher ends of comlex the score discrepancy increases. This years 750 is more like an 850 and 800 like 900.

That’s why the 260 usmle people last year got 800s a lot and we had lots of people this year get sub 700 make 255-260+.

Also why comsae was way off this year lol I got 900+ on one of them but didn’t break 8 on the real deal even tho I got 270+ on usmle.


More reason why usmle is >>>>> it actually stays almost the same.


I feel bad for those that only took comlex applying to acgme stuff this year. A lot of places have 500 550 cutoff and that was hard to get this past year. A 550 in co 2020 was a damn good score. In 2019 it was nothing. Acgme pds DONT know the scores vary year by year And it matters when they try to compare to USMLE. A lot of acgme places think anything below 500 is caveman status


Nbome is a bunch of dumb fools
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Except you're both wrong. Yes, the middle of the be curve was inflated near the average. A 550 between 2019 and 2018 is almost a 20 percentile difference whereas I only lost 5 percentile points with a score around 700 on L1. It's DEFINITELY not like "just adding 50 points". 99th percentile is still at 775 for both years. The middle of the night curve moved, but the ends didn't move in the same distribution.
 
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Rekt said:
Except you're both wrong. Yes, the middle of the be curve was inflated near the average. A 550 between 2019 and 2018 is almost a 20 percentile difference whereas I only lost 5 percentile points with a score around 700 on L1. It's DEFINITELY not like "just adding 50 points". 99th percentile is still at 775 for both years. The middle of the night curve moved, but the ends didn't move in the same distribution.
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No your statement is incorrect 99th was lower for co 2018 than 2019 and will be lower again for 2020

Yes we do not just add points but the numerical scores vary more at the extremes. We were not discussing percentiles changing more or less.

I’d mean you can just plug numbers into NBOME calculator to verify this. Please do that Thanks. And if bet money 99th will be down close to 700 for 2020.


If the entire distribution didn’t change then why did we all start scoring 100+ less on real deal than on comsaes this year Does the entirety of 2020 have test anxiety?


Co 2019 got gentleman’s pass on comlex and even 700s were not uncommon
 
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Oh_Gee said:
comlex goes up that high?
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There was an ortho applicant with a confirmed 999 this year, and he ended up just switching to anesthesia is word on the street lol
 
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DNC127 said:
There was an ortho applicant with a confirmed 999 this year, and he ended up just switching to anesthesia is word on the street lol
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Lol why did he change
 
Neurologicaldermatopathicorthoplastics.

Make 10 million a year crafting cerebral femurs with beautiful skin
 
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SynapticDoctah said:
Derm makes more than ortho?
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No, but they are close enough. And in cash procedures Derm is pretty much king. Meaning much less paperwork, BS, and life wasted on superfluous CMS 'standard-meeting' charting or having your cases denied.
 
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