Law vs Medicine

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Alembic12

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Hi, guys. I hope I’m posting this in the correct place on the forum.

As my freshman year is coming to a close, it’s coming time (at least, ostensibly) for me to pick a major/career path. Since I was little, I’ve been hovering between BigLaw and Medicine. I truly am attracted to both careers – some people pursue these jobs because they tend to be relatively high-paying, but I’m attracted to different facets of each job. It’s not about money to me.

But here’s the deal: I am naturally more gifted in philosophy/verbal reasoning/debate than I am in science. I’ve done well enough in the first few premed classes, so I can do the work, but I’ve had a MUCH easier time in philosophy than in, say, chemistry. I’m not sure if that’s because chem is innately more difficult that philosophy or if I’m just worse at chem.

I know it’s probably difficult to give any sort of advice based on the relatively small amount of information that I’ve been able to provide here, but do you guys/girls have any suggestions as to what I should choose or HOW I should choose?

Medicine Pros: HEALING PEOPLE, more prestige in the profession, get to work in a hospital.
Cons: Probably longer workweeks, much longer schooling.

Biglaw Pros: I have a better shot at a t14 law school than a top medical school, out of school by 25, get to work with large business figures.
Cons: I won’t really be helping people and might turn into an insufferable person if I spend my days arguing all the time.

Thanks so much for your time. Hopefully this wasn’t too much of a rambling post.
*Also, I have in fact searched this very topic on this forum, and have read the threads. I'm just looking for a little more info in regard my personal situation.

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Hi, guys. I hope I'm posting this in the correct place on the forum.

As my freshman year is coming to a close, it's coming time (at least, ostensibly) for me to pick a major/career path. Since I was little, I've been hovering between BigLaw and Medicine. I truly am attracted to both careers – some people pursue these jobs because they tend to be relatively high-paying, but I'm attracted to different facets of each job. It's not about money to me.

But here's the deal: I am naturally more gifted in philosophy/verbal reasoning/debate than I am in science. I've done well enough in the first few premed classes, so I can do the work, but I've had a MUCH easier time in philosophy than in, say, chemistry. I'm not sure if that's because chem is innately more difficult that philosophy or if I'm just worse at chem.

I know it's probably difficult to give any sort of advice based on the relatively small amount of information that I've been able to provide here, but do you guys/girls have any suggestions as to what I should choose or HOW I should choose?

Medicine Pros: HEALING PEOPLE, more prestige in the profession, get to work in a hospital.
Cons: Probably longer workweeks, much longer schooling.

Biglaw Pros: I have a better shot at a t14 law school than a top medical school, out of school by 25, get to work with large business figures.
Cons: I won't really be helping people and might turn into an insufferable person if I spend my days arguing all the time.

Thanks so much for your time. Hopefully this wasn't too much of a rambling post.
*Also, I have in fact searched this very topic on this forum, and have read the threads. I'm just looking for a little more info in regard my personal situation.

I think you need to research both careers a bit more and then make your decision. Try shadowing a physician. It's clear you also have some misconceptions about what you would do as a lawyer at a large law firm. I can tell you from the get-go that you would not "spend [your] days arguing all the time." Most lawyers are not trial lawyers but rather spend their time filling out paperwork, researching the law for specific applications, and solving legal problems for clients.
 
Why exactly do you have to pick a career path now? You've still got a good deal of time before you really have to decide what you want to do with the rest of your life. What are the majors you're deciding between?
 
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you will get very biased results asking in a pre-med forum.

I for one could not be paid enough to work in law. I hated every law class I had to take for business school and would never imagine myself enjoying practicing law.

Some people love it though
 
Why exactly do you have to pick a career path now? You've still got a good deal of time before you really have to decide what you want to do with the rest of your life. What are the majors you're deciding between?

:thumbdown:

Hate to sound like one to stir panic on here but if you want medicine you really ought to decide freshman year or sophomore year at the latest. There are 2 years worth of prerequisites you need to have under your belt which will get you ready for the MCAT which you will take your junior year. You also need to immerse yourself in activities like research, volunteering, teaching, etc. This is assuming you do not want to delay things a couple years and apply later (and begin practicing later). I know nothing about law but my friend was going pre-law and she was taking economics/political science/history/spanish classes. You can perhaps double major and do medicine because medical schools like diversity but I really suggest you figure out what you want to do soon. Medicine (and I'm sure Law as well) require dedication and early commitment.

you will get very biased results asking in a pre-med forum.

I for one could not be paid enough to work in law. I hated every law class I had to take for business school and would never imagine myself enjoying practicing law.

Some people love it though

Ya, we'll probably only be able to tell you about medicine but there are a few MD/JD students on here who might be able to help you out.
 
Bro, I'm......I'm just not sure where to start here. I think you may have a distorted view of both professions, but I was the same way as a freshman, so I won't hate.

I'll post a more detailed response tomorrow.
 
Hi, guys. I hope I’m posting this in the correct place on the forum.

As my freshman year is coming to a close, it’s coming time (at least, ostensibly) for me to pick a major/career path. Since I was little, I’ve been hovering between BigLaw and Medicine. I truly am attracted to both careers – some people pursue these jobs because they tend to be relatively high-paying, but I’m attracted to different facets of each job. It’s not about money to me.

But here’s the deal: I am naturally more gifted in philosophy/verbal reasoning/debate than I am in science. I’ve done well enough in the first few premed classes, so I can do the work, but I’ve had a MUCH easier time in philosophy than in, say, chemistry. I’m not sure if that’s because chem is innately more difficult that philosophy or if I’m just worse at chem.

I know it’s probably difficult to give any sort of advice based on the relatively small amount of information that I’ve been able to provide here, but do you guys/girls have any suggestions as to what I should choose or HOW I should choose?

Medicine Pros: HEALING PEOPLE, more prestige in the profession, get to work in a hospital.
Cons: Probably longer workweeks, much longer schooling.

Biglaw Pros: I have a better shot at a t14 law school than a top medical school, out of school by 25, get to work with large business figures.
Cons: I won’t really be helping people and might turn into an insufferable person if I spend my days arguing all the time.

Thanks so much for your time. Hopefully this wasn’t too much of a rambling post.
*Also, I have in fact searched this very topic on this forum, and have read the threads. I'm just looking for a little more info in regard my personal situation.
I'd say give it time. As we get older we change our minds a lot. Before I was 100% sure to go to medical school, a year later I was thinking of not doing it at all and doing law school better. Law school looked like a sweet deal less school and great lifestyle. But keep in mind if you are a lawyer you do get to help people out (like a big brother standing up to a bully for you). I was thinking of doing immigration or labour and employment law. As you could see with those specialties you help people not to get F' over by the companies or unconstitutional treatment of the U.S. government. But now, I'm back on track to medicine because I found the love for it again and it hasn't gone away anymore.
 
:thumbdown:

Hate to sound like one to stir panic on here but if you want medicine you really ought to decide freshman year or sophomore year at the latest. There are 2 years worth of prerequisites you need to have under your belt which will get you ready for the MCAT which you will take your junior year. You also need to immerse yourself in activities like research, volunteering, teaching, etc. This is assuming you do not want to delay things a couple years and apply later (and begin practicing later). I know nothing about law but my friend was going pre-law and she was taking economics/political science/history/spanish classes. You can perhaps double major and do medicine because medical schools like diversity but I really suggest you figure out what you want to do soon. Medicine (and I'm sure Law as well) require dedication and early commitment.



Ya, we'll probably only be able to tell you about medicine but there are a few MD/JD students on here who might be able to help you out.
I didn't decide I wanted to do medicine until halfway through my sophomore year and have been successful getting into medical school this cycle, including at several "top ten" schools. I didn't take a gap year. OP can do ECs and take classes that will be helpful for either law or medical school admissions and take time exploring both fields so he/she can make a well researched and informed decision. There's no reason OP has to decide for certain any time soon. The majority of freshman college students change their career paths 2-3 times.
 
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Otter: Take it easy, I'm pre-law.
Boon: I thought you were pre-med.
Otter: What's the difference?
 
:thumbdown:

Hate to sound like one to stir panic on here but if you want medicine you really ought to decide freshman year or sophomore year at the latest. There are 2 years worth of prerequisites you need to have under your belt which will get you ready for the MCAT which you will take your junior year. You also need to immerse yourself in activities like research, volunteering, teaching, etc. This is assuming you do not want to delay things a couple years and apply later (and begin practicing later). I know nothing about law but my friend was going pre-law and she was taking economics/political science/history/spanish classes. You can perhaps double major and do medicine because medical schools like diversity but I really suggest you figure out what you want to do soon. Medicine (and I'm sure Law as well) require dedication and early commitment....

Tons of people on this board didn't decide on medicine until late in college or beyond. The notion of a need to decide early ended in about 1980, when nontrad paths started to emerge.
 
Hi, guys. I hope I'm posting this in the correct place on the forum.

As my freshman year is coming to a close, it's coming time (at least, ostensibly) for me to pick a major/career path. Since I was little, I've been hovering between BigLaw and Medicine. I truly am attracted to both careers – some people pursue these jobs because they tend to be relatively high-paying, but I'm attracted to different facets of each job. It's not about money to me.

But here's the deal: I am naturally more gifted in philosophy/verbal reasoning/debate than I am in science. I've done well enough in the first few premed classes, so I can do the work, but I've had a MUCH easier time in philosophy than in, say, chemistry. I'm not sure if that's because chem is innately more difficult that philosophy or if I'm just worse at chem.

I know it's probably difficult to give any sort of advice based on the relatively small amount of information that I've been able to provide here, but do you guys/girls have any suggestions as to what I should choose or HOW I should choose?

Medicine Pros: HEALING PEOPLE, more prestige in the profession, get to work in a hospital.
Cons: Probably longer workweeks, much longer schooling.

Biglaw Pros: I have a better shot at a t14 law school than a top medical school, out of school by 25, get to work with large business figures.
Cons: I won't really be helping people and might turn into an insufferable person if I spend my days arguing all the time.

Thanks so much for your time. Hopefully this wasn't too much of a rambling post.
*Also, I have in fact searched this very topic on this forum, and have read the threads. I'm just looking for a little more info in regard my personal situation.

A few quick points. First, the question shouldn't ever be which comes easier to you, it should be which do you see doing for the rest of your life, and which will you enjoy more. There are plenty of people who are gifted with numbers or philosophical reasoning or artistic skills who follow the paths of least resistance and end up bored with the careers they end up in. It came easy to them, so they did it. And then sat on the sidelines and watched other struggle but and up in more satisfying careers. So ignore what you are innately good at and focus on what you actually like/want to do.

Second, the whole notion of "helping people" is a cop out phrase people use when they want to exalt medicine over other fields. Honestly, who helps more people, the doctor who works in the hospital or the lawyer whose efforts were instrumental in the building of that hospital in the first place. I can honestly say that the work I did as a Lawyer impacted a far greater number of people than I will ever impact, one at a time, in medicine. So that's a bogus argument. Using helping people as an argument for medicine just marginalizes the important work pretty much every non health professional does.

Third, if you think lawyers "argue all the time" you don't really understand what the white shoe lawyers in big law actually do. It's mostly small firm litigators who argue all the time. Big law does deals.

Finally, I generally don't buy a post when someone prefaces his statement with "it's not about money to me" but then lists working with big figures as a pro...

I think you need to do some shadowing in both fields and see what doctors end lawyers actually do, and decide which is the best fit for you. If it truly comes down to laundry lusts of things like "helping people" versus how many years till practice then you probably are going to hate both jobs.
 
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The best one is the one that interests you more.
 
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Law is a LOT of paperwork, heavy on the details, and many more hours than you can imagine. The path to partnership in law is paved with [at least] two things: Billable Hours and Rainmaking. In other words, how much money are you making for the firm now, and how much more will you be likely to bring in as a potential partner. You nail those two things, and maybe you get more flexibility down the road, but if money is not your gig, BigLaw might not be your field.
 
Go for that MD/JD son!

http://pritzker.uchicago.edu/jointdegrees/combined/mdjd.shtml

be pre-law and pre-med...nobody can out elitist you that way!

Hahah yes.

Why don't you try and learn for the sake of learning. Find your passions and discover the beauty of your mind. Enjoy college. You have the opportunity to explore fields of study you never knew interested you.

Pick a major that interests you! Be an interesting person. Don't get me wrong I like your drive and motivation

But....Reading over your pros and cons for both shows me you're gonna have a bad time. Research, shadow, learn.
 
Lol at "working with big business figures" in big law. You won't be making any arguments in a big law firm. You will never see the inside of a court room as a big law associate, ever. The ones making important decisions, meeting with clients, and doing actual lawyer stuff will be partners, and the chances of you becoming a partner after 5-8 years of working 60-80 hours a week are approximately 10%. Your time as a big law associate will be spent doing mindless, boring paperwork.

A top-14 law school isn't a ticket into big law, either.
 
:thumbdown:

Hate to sound like one to stir panic on here but if you want medicine you really ought to decide freshman year or sophomore year at the latest. There are 2 years worth of prerequisites you need to have under your belt which will get you ready for the MCAT which you will take your junior year. You also need to immerse yourself in activities like research, volunteering, teaching, etc. This is assuming you do not want to delay things a couple years and apply later (and begin practicing later). I know nothing about law but my friend was going pre-law and she was taking economics/political science/history/spanish classes. You can perhaps double major and do medicine because medical schools like diversity but I really suggest you figure out what you want to do soon. Medicine (and I'm sure Law as well) require dedication and early commitment.



Ya, we'll probably only be able to tell you about medicine but there are a few MD/JD students on here who might be able to help you out.

lol... how old are you? This is pretty ridiculous advice. Sure, the sooner you know, the sooner you can matriculate. But there's a reason why the average age of matriculants at a lot of schools is 24/25. It takes some people longer than others to figure out what it is they want to do, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I went from wanting to be a professional athlete to wanting to make movies to majoring in philosophy. And I'm matriculating this fall.
 
Hi, guys. I hope I'm posting this in the correct place on the forum.

As my freshman year is coming to a close, it's coming time (at least, ostensibly) for me to pick a major/career path. Since I was little, I've been hovering between BigLaw and Medicine. I truly am attracted to both careers – some people pursue these jobs because they tend to be relatively high-paying, but I'm attracted to different facets of each job. It's not about money to me.

But here's the deal: I am naturally more gifted in philosophy/verbal reasoning/debate than I am in science. I've done well enough in the first few premed classes, so I can do the work, but I've had a MUCH easier time in philosophy than in, say, chemistry. I'm not sure if that's because chem is innately more difficult that philosophy or if I'm just worse at chem.

I know it's probably difficult to give any sort of advice based on the relatively small amount of information that I've been able to provide here, but do you guys/girls have any suggestions as to what I should choose or HOW I should choose?

Medicine Pros: HEALING PEOPLE, more prestige in the profession, get to work in a hospital.
Cons: Probably longer workweeks, much longer schooling.

Biglaw Pros: I have a better shot at a t14 law school than a top medical school, out of school by 25, get to work with large business figures.
Cons: I won't really be helping people and might turn into an insufferable person if I spend my days arguing all the time.

Thanks so much for your time. Hopefully this wasn't too much of a rambling post.
*Also, I have in fact searched this very topic on this forum, and have read the threads. I'm just looking for a little more info in regard my personal situation.

1. You can go to law school regardless of your undergraduate major. Good grades will help you get a scholarship.

2. Finance, business, and engineering are great undergraduate majors for Big Law. A lot of Big Law attorneys are either patent attorneys (engineering degree preferred), or drift back and forth between business finance and law, working at a financial firm as an investment banker, for example, and then in a large law firm as an attorney doing mergers and acquisitions, helping companies invest, counseling higher-ups on various problems, etc. Going back and forth is good for networking, gaining clients, getting bumps in pay. (Unless you hate money, you should look into how much they make It's impressive.)

3. Doing pre-med doesn't rule out law school, or make it less likely.

4. Try to get a (paid or unpaid) undergrad summer internship at BigLaw firms and volunteer at a doctor's office or hospital. This will help you make connections to help you get hired later on and will give you a better idea of what both are like. Some law firms are happy to have an intern one day a week (or more) to run errands (like photocopying) in exchange for the experience of being in the firm and seeing how it runs. (There's plenty of info. on here about the dr side so I won't get into that.) If you want to go into litigation or be a trail attorney, join speech and debate clubs now. [A financial side note: Financial firms and some law firms run a credit check on potential interns, associates, and employees. They don't mind if you are poor. They do mind if you don't pay your bills on time. Be responsible!]

5. Your best shot for Big Law: Pick an undergraduate major from #2 above, or just get really good grades. Then spend a year as a paralegal gaining experience. (It costs a couple thousand dollars and takes 3-6 month to become a paralegal.) Prepare yourself to get excellent grades your first year of law school (partially by having been a paralegal and partially by looking into course material ahead of time). First year law school grades are very very very important. Try out for the journal and moot court. Your best bet is to become a SUMMER ASSOCIATE the summer after your 1st year of law school. That is when most "associates" are first hired into "BigLaw." Then they tend to get invited back each year, which means fewer spots are open later on. You will be selected based on grades, experience, other accomplishments, and if they like you. Maybe diversity. If that doesn't work, try to become a clerk for a judge and reapply to become an associate later on. But really, that 1st summer after year 1 of law school is your best bet - grades and experience.

Regarding the "Pros" you listed for medicine, I believe some apply to law as well. Many or most top lawyers take on pro bono cases to save lives or better lives of people in need. If you are wealthy, you can direct charitable contributions to help heal people, and broken systems in society. There is plenty of prestige in being a millionaire, which I've heard is not difficult on a partner's salary. (If you don't know how to invest, your colleagues will.) And you can take cases in the hospital. Although, I do admit that a doctor's work sounds more interesting. (To me anyway.)

Regarding your "Cons" you will spend some days arguing in court and your peers will be naturally competitive and somewhat argumentative, but not necessarily bad company. Most of your days will be in the firm, where you work with a group of attorneys (partners and associates), paralegals, and staff on a case. You will share ideas and divide up the work. It's a team project and can be fun! You will start out by writing lots of briefs, then learn more advanced skills from your mentors at the firm. Prior to arguing in court, you will argue to your team. They will make suggestions to help you. Court can be like a sports tournament, where you win as a team or lose as a team. If you are a litigator and do an awesome job arguing, then win the case, everyone will congratulate you all week long! You will also spend time counseling your clients about how to handle difficult situations. In that sense, you are "helping people" make good decisions during tough times.

Between Big Law attorneys and doctors, I really don't know who does more work. It might be an individual thing (case by case basis) or a toss up. Large law firms often have sleeping rooms or floors too, page each other to come in on nights and weekends, and require travel.

Good luck!

Edit (more goodies about law):

Many lawyers also choose to go back and forth between holding public office or working in politics and in firms. Many a lawyer has written laws and changed society. While this isn't exactly "healing people" the "pro" you mentioned, it is a way to help people large scale. You can take a crummy law that doesn't work, and fix it. (Sometimes regular citizens can but it's much easier for a lawyer. And yes, sometimes it take more effort than just that, gathering support, blah blah.)

Family people might be interested in that law firms often have the best health insurance too. Lawyers are great at negotiating riders into their policies so much more is covered. (To anyone who doesn't already know, what's covered by insurance is based on the policy rather than the insurance company. For example, Blue Cross Blue Shield likely has thousands of policies that cover different things. Large employers can negotiate with BCBS and ask them to include whatever in their policy so such and such is covered, which normally wouldn't be covered.)
 
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Medicine Pros: HEALING PEOPLE, more prestige in the profession, get to work in a hospital.
Cons: Probably longer workweeks, much longer schooling.

Biglaw Pros: I have a better shot at a t14 law school than a top medical school, out of school by 25, get to work with large business figures.
Cons: I won’t really be helping people and might turn into an insufferable person if I spend my days arguing all the time.

A couple of points (from a current biglaw associate):

(1) If you want to go into biglaw, it helps to know whether you're interested in corporate (transactional) work or in litigation. Something to think about.

(2) You control whether you turn into an insufferable person or not. But your personality definitely dictates your upward mobility, and at some firms being insufferable is a positive. PM me if you wan't to know more about firm culture.

(3) Most big law associates work insanely long workweeks. If you think about the typical minimum billing requirement, which is 2,000 hours per year, that breaks down to ~40 hours of billable work per week. But factor in vacation time, non-billable work, and the inability to cram 8 hours of billable work (rounded to the nearest 6-minute increment) into just 8 hours, and you're looking at a 60 hour workweek a lot of the time. Of course, your hours are dictated by your workload. And biglaw firms don't turn away work just because all of their associates are already slammed.

(4) Biglaw firms do excellent probono work, and you will have opportunities to help people in need while having the firm's vast resources at your fingertips.

(5) A majority of the time, biglaw attorneys are either facilitating transactions between two big companies, or defending one big company against a lawsuit from another big company. I have never worked on a case where the plaintiff is an actual individual or any other type of sympathy-inducing entity.

A few quick points. First, the question shouldn't ever be which comes easier to you, it should be which do you see doing for the rest of your life, and which will you enjoy more. There are plenty of people who are gifted with numbers or philosophical reasoning or artistic skills who follow the paths of least resistance and end up bored with the careers they end up in. It came easy to them, so they did it. And then sat on the sidelines and watched other struggle but and up in more satisfying careers. So ignore what you are innately good at and focus on what you actually like/want to do.

I agree with this point. Personally, math is my strong suit. :)

The path to partnership in law is paved with [at least] two things: Billable Hours and Rainmaking.

Agree. But biglaw will let you stick around for quite a while even if you're not on the partner track. A lot of attorneys leave after 5-7 years to go in-house and work for more money and fewer hours.

1. You can go to law school regardless of your undergraduate major. Good grades will help you get a scholarship.

:thumbup: Law schools and lawyers kind of hate the stereotype that everyone is bad at math, and that everyone was a poli sci or a philosophy major in college (even thought it's largely true). Law schools look favorably upon applicants that can add diversity.
 
How is working in a hospital a pro? That's pretty much the worst part of being a doctor.
 
It's easier to get into a top law school than a top medical school, sure, but from the perspective of law schools, every US medical school is a top school. Law has two or three tiers, as I understand it. The top tier gets your stereotypical law jobs. Tier 2 gets you some sort of law job, whether or not that leads anywhere is something else. Tier 3 take your money and toss you into the wind hanging.
 
Law has two or three tiers, as I understand it. The top tier gets your stereotypical law jobs. Tier 2 gets you some sort of law job, whether or not that leads anywhere is something else. Tier 3 take your money and toss you into the wind hanging.

Not always true if you are talking about school rank. If you've had major accomplishments relative your peers, received excellent grades, and graduated from an "okay" law school, you can still get into a big firm. They look at the whole picture, not just your school's rank. Some large firms, if not most, have more lawyers from mid-tier schools than top schools. You'll see this if you are an intern. Some firms have sort of an internal facebook, where you can see bios and pictures of the attorneys and staff with info. like where they went to school.

If you are talking about job prospects after law school, then yes. This is why it's important to get experience, preferably as a paralegal, and prepare to do well your first year. And if you really want to increase your chances pre-study 1st year classes like legal writing. First year grades in law school are extremely important.
 
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It's easier to get into a top law school than a top medical school, sure, but from the perspective of law schools, every US medical school is a top school. Law has two or three tiers, as I understand it. The top tier gets your stereotypical law jobs. Tier 2 gets you some sort of law job, whether or not that leads anywhere is something else. Tier 3 take your money and toss you into the wind hanging.

Honestly this is even way too generous of a description. Top 6 law schools will guarantee you a job for the most part. And for many people they find they despise these jobs but must continue working them to service the debt. Outside of that there is a very real chance to to be in bottom half or third of a top 25 and being stuck with 200K debt and having same job prospects as someone holding a Bachelor's degree, if not worse. Law schools and the subsequent market is a cesspool of crippling debt and unhappiness.
 
Honestly this is even way too generous of a description. Top 6 law schools will guarantee you a job for the most part. And for many people they find they despise these jobs but must continue working them to service the debt. Outside of that there is a very real chance to to be in bottom half or third of a top 25 and being stuck with 200K debt and having same job prospects as someone holding a Bachelor's degree, if not worse. Law schools and the subsequent market is a cesspool of crippling debt and unhappiness.

It would be worth looking into the characteristics of those don't succeed in law versus those who do. Law school attracts it's share of C-students. And it's share of people who wander in with no previous experience. When assigned a brief or memo for homework, they often don't even know what that is, let alone how to write one. Paralegal experience boosts your grades, and is ideal for employers and adcoms. You can also pre-study 1st year classes. People also tend to bumble into law for no better reason than, they don't know what else to do. (Not true of medical school, since those people are screened out from the beginning.)

I suspect that preparation makes a lot of difference.
 
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Not always true if you are talking about school rank. If you've had major accomplishments relative your peers, received excellent grades, and graduated from an "okay" law school, you can still get into a big firm. They look at the whole picture, not just your school's rank. Some large firms, if not most, have more lawyers from mid-tier schools than top schools. You'll see this if you are an intern. Some firms have sort of an internal facebook, where you can see bios and pictures of the attorneys and staff with info. like where they went to school.

If you are talking about job prospects after law school, then yes. This is why it's important to get experience, preferably as a paralegal, and prepare to do well your first year. First year grades in law school are extremely important, some would say "practically everything" which might be a tiny exaggeration.

Biglaw firms typically recruit from schools like Penn, Columbia, Yale, Stanford, Berkeley, Harvard, and maybe the top third or half of the class from the lower ranking T14 schools like Duke, U Mich, NWU, Georgetown, etc. Across the entire first tier of schools (rank 1-50), only about 25% of graduates get a big law job. It's obviously much lower for tier 2 (rank 50-whatever) and much, much lower for tier 3 schools. Being a good student relative to your peers is meaningless -- cream of the crap, who cares. If you want some real statistics look at www.lawschooltransparency.com and look at employment figures. It's laughable.

edit: List of T1 schools with % of class in big law, defined as NLJ250 firms: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArtic...9668&interactive=true&slreturn=20130317152725 They don't mirror what I say exactly with respect to lesser T14 schools being less desirable, but there is still a very clear trend.
 
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It would be worth looking into the characteristics of those don't succeed in law versus those who do. Law school attracts it's share of C-students. And it's share of people who wander in with no previous experience. When assigned a brief or memo for homework, they often don't even know what that is, let alone how to write one. People also tend to bumble into law for no better reason than, they don't know what else to do. (Not true of medical school, since those people are screened out from the beginning.)

I suspect that preparation makes a lot of difference.

I'm pretty sure that law firm experience before entering law school is entirely unnecessary and won't contribute to biglaw hiring. Totally agree about students going to law school by default though.

Biglaw firms typically recruit from schools like Penn, Columbia, Princeton, Stanford, Berkeley, Harvard, and Princeton, and maybe the top third or half of the class from the lower ranking T14 schools like Duke, U Mich, NWU, Georgetown, etc. Across the entire first tier of schools (rank 1-50), only about 25% of graduates get a big law job. It's obviously much lower for tier 2 (rank 50-whatever) and much, much lower for tier 3 schools. Being a good student relative to your peers is meaningless -- cream of the crap, who cares. If you want some real statistics look at www.lawschooltransparency.com and look at employment figures. It's laughable.

edit: List of T1 schools with % of class in big law, defined as NLJ250 firms: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArtic...9668&interactive=true&slreturn=20130317152725 They don't mirror what I say exactly with respect to lesser T14 schools being less desirable, but there is still a very clear trend.

+1 on looking at lawschooltransparency. Good info that school websites won't tell you. Also, for the record there is no Princeton Law School.
 
People talk a lot about how much medicine sucks right now, but it's a MUCH safer career path than law atm.
 
Regarding experience and school rank, the best evidence is reality. Go directly to the source, a large firm itself. PM Wifey about her firm maybe, intern, or call HR.

..."Hi, I'm an undergraduate student interested in going to law school. I was wondering if there is someone in Human Resources or in the firm who would be willing to answer a few career-related questions?" Transfer... This is George. "Thanks for taking my call. So, as "Susan" might have told you, I'm an undergraduate student and was wondering if you or someone else would answer some career-related questions?" Sure, what do you want to know...

If I want to work in a big firm, how important is it that I graduate from a top school?

How important is it for summer associate candidates to have experience working in law?

(After 2-4 questions. - Uh, I have a list of questions, do you have time for a few more? If not, call another firm. If you are really lucky, this could turn into an invitation or expand your network.)

What do you (or most people) enjoy most about practicing law? Least?

What do you do all day, on most days?

What talents or personality traits should an attorney should have?

Do you have family time?

Going back to school rank, do most firms higher primarily from the top schools?

And how important is gpa/class rank?

At what time during my 1st year (of law school) should I apply for a summer associate position?

Do you know if your firm recruits from any nearby schools or from any student law groups?

etc.

While I have NOT yet looked at any of the statistics provided in this discussion/thread, in general there are a lot of "fish stories" about BigLaw. And there's a perspective thing going on. If all law students met med school standards, BigLaw might not seem so difficult. Really, go to the source, meaning the firm itself.

Edit: If you have the time and ambition, you can also look at law firm's websites or research them somehow. If who you are resonates with the firm's values, or even with a bio of someone there, then you might send HR a short email, instead of or in addition to, calling. Then provide a link to your facebook page either under your name as part of your signature or within the email. An example would be if someone is a proud veteran and the firm's CEO, HR Director, or website indicates that they love veterans. Diversity might be another match. Some people will find this surprisingly effective. Firms love to forward emails around. If you're a strong match to the right person's personality, you might get forwarded. You really might get forwarded...
 
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Should also point out that you can go to medical school regardless of undergraduate major as well. Of course, you still need to do well in those prerequisite sciences, but if you do well in philosophy classes, capitalize upon that.

I'm biased as a non-science student, but in my science major during my first three semesters, I felt like I was being trained for a lab job rather than getting the broad education I want out of undergrad. Statistically, humanities majors do well on the MCAT, though it is a narrower pool of applicants.

In brief, I'd advise sticking where you excel, shadowing a few physicians, then making your decision. The only drawback would be having less of a backup with a philosophy degree, but with enough drive and impressive grades, you can do well in many grad schools.

A friend of mine is pre-law, and unfortunately it's extremely difficult to find an analogue to shadowing among lawyers.
 
Jeez...well excuse me. I guess my advice doesn't work for everyone as evidence by Law2Doc along with the guy who decided midway through sophomore year and has been accepted to a top 10 (however n=1 hearsay especially on SDN isn't too indicative IMO). It does prove though that it's definitely possible. I just said that because I knew what I wanted to do late in high school and early in college and I know I'll still have trouble. If I were to do it over I'd definitely try to do more early on so that's why I said this. Also, whenever I hear a sophomore or junior considering medicine who hasn't even taken the prereqs yet and plans to apply the traditional route it worries me. Idk maybe I just suck @ life lol. I'm not some elitist immature young pre-med gunner. Sorry if it came out that way. I definitely respect the non-trad path even though that's not what I want to do. It's just that given the chance to go back, I'd have done more and in order to do that I definitely needed to be set on medicine. Then again, there's the argument that you don't need to be a pre-med to do amazing things that are worthy of recognition.
 
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I get that there are many non trad's and even traditionals that decided later in the game to go to medical school and still made it in to matriculate right after high school. But I don't think we can ignore the fact that knowing earlier can make things easier for the OP so I understand where SuperDhooper19 is coming from. So if they honestly can't reach a decision by sophomore year then ok whatever, it's okay. But I think they should try to, because it would simply make things easier for them.

In other words, OP, start shadowing doctors and lawyers now (if you even shadow lawyers? lol) instead of waiting until the end of sophomore/junior year to shadow. Start volunteering in a medical settings/non medical settings to see if you like the clinical experience, or if you can't stand it.

Just don't sit around for the next year doing nothing and just hoping your destiny will come to you in a dream. Get out there and do something so that you can make plans accordingly.
 
I have a few thoughts on the topic...

First of all, I personally know people that went to both T14 law schools and bottom of the barrel third and fourth tier institutions. The people who went to the third and fourth tier institutions usually had connections at a small firm, and had a job waiting for them once they came out. This is because of the close ethnic circle that I'm in. If you search for third and fourth tier law schools, you find some terrifying blogs.

As for T14 schools, two people I personally know completed those schools and are now working outside of the field of law. One, who went to Northwestern University, is now working a six figure job in Silicon Valley. He wears pajamas to work according to Facebook, so he must be doing well. :laugh: The other person I know went to NYU, which is top 5 actually, and is currently working in consulting.

You don't have to limit yourself to Big Law if you go to a T14 school. It seems that it can be used as a shortcut to a high-paying corporate job instead of business school since you can go to law school straight from undergrad, while any reputable business school (once again, rankings are uber important) will require work experience. Business school is shorter, but it sucks that you need prior work experience before you can jump in there.

For the OP, I have a few suggestions. First of all, unlike third and fourth tier schools where people just randomly decide to go for the hell of it, I'm assuming that applicants to T14 schools know they want to do law. Therefore, if you are trying to strengthen your application, I would try to focus it as much as you can neutrally so law schools don't see themselves as a fallback option. No one wants to be second choice, and I sure as hell doubt schools like Harvard would want to be second choice. Therefore, when doing your ECs which are necessary for medical school, but not so much with law school, do the minimum amount of clinical volunteering at whichever hospital you go to. This will allow you to check off the clinical experience box plus the volunteering box as well, though it will be very "weak" due to a short commitment. After dropping the hospital, start doing non-clinical volunteering! This will fulfill the unwritten requirement medical schools are looking for, and will score you some sweet brownie points for law school. If you choose to apply to law school, you can leave out the clinical volunteering so they don't see that you were pre-med. Plus if you only did three months or so, it won't feel like as big of a waste. Don't include anything else medically related on a law school application if you choose to apply either.

You should also pick a non-science major, but unfortunately having the required pre-med sequence will stick out like a sore thumb on a law school application. I don't know how they will perceive this, and I'm sure someone has better insight. Personally though, if I were a law school ADCOM, I would see myself as a fallback option. So maybe adding a science minor might help.

If you follow this path, you should be set for both medical school and law school admissions. As for medical school, as long as you have some clinical volunteering plus shadowing, the non-clinical volunteer work will carry you across the finish line. As for law school, when I looked at websites like the Top Law Schools forum, I saw that ECs weren't considered as important. Therefore, someone whose ECs are below-average to average according to SDN standards will be a Godly rockstar on law school applications. :smuggrin:

This is what I would do if I were in your position. Don't take my word for it though. I'm sure there are other people that know better. Otherwise, the stuff people say in this forum is true. But don't forget that a T14 law school can be a nice gateway to some high paying non-law jobs as well. :thumbup: Good luck!
 
... Business school is shorter, but it sucks that you need prior work experience before you can jump in there...!

well, you have to realize that an MBA isn't a "Professional degree" and doesn't provide entry into a particular field. It is meant to enhance existing skills. So the good MBA programs expect you to have worked in business for a bit first, and in the best case scenario an MBA will be paid for by your employer so you can take the next step up into (middle) management with that employer, not find a new job. So it's a Totally different animal than MD, JD, DDS, etc. Not a good starting place from which to look for a job. There are definitely as many, if not more, out of work or underemployed MBAs than JDs out there, mostly because that degree isn't a necessary precursor to a job and doesn't really open many new doors if you don't already have the prior business experience. If eg you want to work in financial services you start out with an analyst job, not start out with a degree. So it doesn't really belong in a discussion with professional degrees -- it's a very different function.
 
Talk to a doctor and a lawyer and you will get the same reply: if you can think of anything else but medicine/ law go do it, you really have to be passionate about it! Shadow a doctor and see what it is like....or better yet, shadow a med student and see what the next 4 yrs of your life will be like!
 
Thanks a ton for the comments - it's given me a ton to consider.

Something I think I should mention - I have, in fact, shadowed some doctors: a physiatrist and an IM doc. I'm in the process of setting up shadows with a pathologist and a radiologist. I really, really, REALLY liked the hospital environment, which I didn't expect.

I think the daunting part is that the jobs of these different doctors have felt so radically different.

Also, my comment about the arguments and biglaw did come across as misinformed... I apologize for that. I have an uncle who worked in biglaw for 7-ish years, and he gave me his (remarkably jaded) view on the job: the mindless paperwork, the doc review, etc. I just think that, even with the underling work that I'd be doing, the law culture is much more adversarial than the medical culture. Though obviously I don't know for sure :)



I guess I'm just a little concerned about having a harder time in the intro premed classes. I think I can do the work, but I would wonder if the kind of person who had a slightly difficult time in chem 1 and 2 would have the chops to be a good doctor. The thought of becoming a bad doctor scares the hell out of me.
 
but I would wonder if the kind of person who had a slightly difficult time in chem 1 and 2 would have the chops to be a good doctor. The thought of becoming a bad doctor scares the hell out of me.

you pre-meds crack me up.
I honored both chem 1 and chem 2, yet got a low B in first term bio....I highly doubt that I will be an awful doc. Also some advice...you mentioned that you wanted to do medicine b/c of the "healing" aspect....make sure your application summaries what you mean by that.
 
You've got plenty of time.

Either way you choose though: Med requires 2 years of pre-req work; law has none. It would be wise to take the Med pre-reqs as to allow you entrance into either type of school.

Math heavy degrees, such as engineering physics and mathematics, have higher acceptance rates (not by a wide margin) into Law simply because Math is a form and process of thinking. I have no idea as to the success of Math heavy majors once they get to career.


The bottom line is know what each field is really about and knowing what you want. Don't watch suits or scrubs and think that is what both fields are like.

ALSO: if you think you'll log more hours as an PGY1 then as a 1st year associate at a BigLaw firm, you are sadly mistaken :)
 
I get that there are many non trad's and even traditionals that decided later in the game to go to medical school and still made it in to matriculate right after high school. But I don't think we can ignore the fact that knowing earlier can make things easier for the OP so I understand where SuperDhooper19 is coming from. So if they honestly can't reach a decision by sophomore year then ok whatever, it's okay. But I think they should try to, because it would simply make things easier for them.

In other words, OP, start shadowing doctors and lawyers now (if you even shadow lawyers? lol) instead of waiting until the end of sophomore/junior year to shadow. Start volunteering in a medical settings/non medical settings to see if you like the clinical experience, or if you can't stand it.

Just don't sit around for the next year doing nothing and just hoping your destiny will come to you in a dream. Get out there and do something so that you can make plans accordingly.

:thumbup:

Ya this is where I was coming from. If you're planning to apply traditionally you have at least get a start on this by 2nd semester sophomore year IMO. I'm sure that Law2Doc and the other ones who spoke up are exceptionally hard workers and are likely pretty talented. (Not to say you aren't OP). It's just that I remember my first year like it was yesterday. Things go fast and I remember everyone telling me I have lots of time but boom, now it's application season and I'm afraid I won't get in anywhere even though I have a decent GPA and I have decent ECs. My MCAT isn't where nearly where I wanted it to be a I wish I had done more research. I don't mean to scare you at all. Medicine's amazing and it's definitely a place for many with diverse interests. I hope whatever you choose to do makes you happy and you definitely have a good amount of time but months, not years if you plan on applying traditionally.
 
Ask this same question on the pre-law forums and they will even tell you med school is a better option if you can get in. Employment after law schoool, even T14, is dismal right now. If you still really want to do law knowing this, then make sure you pick the major you can get the highest grades in and absolutely kill the LSAT, so you can get into a T6 school or a lesser T14 with a scholarship. This doesn't mean you should go into medicine; just be careful about approaching law school and explore all careers that may interest you.
 
Hey, don't think that your verbal reasoning / debating abilities won't help you in medicine. You need all of those skills as a doctor, and it can be used powerfully when advocating for your patients... informing health policy, etc. Philosophy can be very pertinent to medicine as well, and medical schools know it.
 
Talk to a doctor and a lawyer and you will get the same reply: if you can think of anything else but medicine/ law go do it, you really have to be passionate about it! ...!

no not really. The tag line in law has always been that the degree is useful in a variety of fields other than law so it's not a bad degree to get if you just need to hide out for a few years and wait for the economy. There are no shortage of books on what ELSE you can do with a law degree. So no, it's kind if the opposite of medicine, where people would caution you away from starting down that rabbit hole at all unless you are 100% sure. Not to mention law school is shorter and cheaper and has fewer barriers to entry (and thus fewer costs to exit). I'd actually say law is the pathway of least resistance for many people who graduated from college with liberal arts degrees and decent grades.
 
... I just think that, even with the underling work that I'd be doing, the law culture is much more adversarial than the medical culture. Though obviously I don't know for sure...

I think these fields are more similar than different. Both have rigid hierarchies. Both feel the need to break you down during the training and build you up in their image. Law gets pegged as adversarial because that's a litigators role in court (bearing in mind that most lawyers aren't litigators and have no desire to ever go to court) but you'll meet about the same number of difficult people and the same extent of office/department politics in both fields.
 
:thumbup:

Ya this is where I was coming from. If you're planning to apply traditionally you have at least get a start on this by 2nd semester sophomore year IMO. I'm sure that Law2Doc and the other ones who spoke up are exceptionally hard workers and are likely pretty talented. (Not to say you aren't OP). It's just that I remember my first year like it was yesterday. Things go fast and I remember everyone telling me I have lots of time but boom, now it's application season and I'm afraid I won't get in anywhere even though I have a decent GPA and I have decent ECs. My MCAT isn't where nearly where I wanted it to be a I wish I had done more research. I don't mean to scare you at all. Medicine's amazing and it's definitely a place for many with diverse interests. I hope whatever you choose to do makes you happy and you definitely have a good amount of time but months, not years if you plan on applying traditionally.

I don't think I'm an exception, although I thank you for the compliment. Our point is that you seem focused on people applying "traditionally", and other than saving a bit of college tuition and time it's not necessarily all that important here, and hasn't been since around 1980. I think a lot of people end up with BETTER stats for med school by putting off the sciences until after college in a postbac, and focusing in on them without other courses distracting them. Med schools don't hold that against people. Average start ages at many schools are in the 23-24 age precisely because so many take an extra year or two these days. Being focused on getting everything done "traditionally" is fine, but being a slave to that concept represents very old school thinking and is perhaps detrimental. If you can do it that's great, but if you decide on medicine in junior or senior year, or even a decade later, and it means you take an extra year, of undergrad science courses, so what?
 
I considered law for awhile. I even took the studied for a month or 2 and took the LSAT. I eventually never submitted applications even though I had a reasonably strong law app.

Here's some points that impacted my decision:

Big Law is far from guaranteed unless you get into a top school. Keep in mind ~10% of law students attend T14 law schools.

Big Law sucks anyway. You're generally not doing really interesting stuff. Just long hours doing meticulous work.

The vast majority of the lawyers I know are unhappy.

I know plenty of law students that graduated from mid tier or (dont go to these) low tier law schools that had A LOT of difficulty finding work as an attorney.

The "helping people" fields of law are few and far between and generally don't pay well.

Much of your income in law is tied to how well you market yourself not so much what a good lawyer you are (though medicine is somewhat similar here).

All that said, if you're smart and hardworking you will generally be fine in any field. There's definitely something to be said for having a 6 figure income at 25 instead of at 30+ as well. If you're seriously considering law talk with lawyers and talk with doctors.
 
All that said, if you're smart and hardworking you will generally be fine in any field. There's definitely something to be said for having a 6 figure income at 25 instead of at 30+ as well. If you're seriously considering law talk with lawyers and talk with doctors.

And make sure you talk to young lawyers, not ****boomers who graduated from the bottom of Cooley in '85 with $10k in student loans, and who now make $250k/year as a partner because they were lucky enough to get a partner-track job in an economy that was 10x better than than it was now.
 
...Our point is that you seem focused on people applying "traditionally", and other than saving a bit of college tuition and time it's not necessarily all that important here, and hasn't been since around 1980. I think a lot of people end up with BETTER stats for med school by putting off the sciences until after college in a postbac, and focusing in on them without other courses distracting them. Med schools don't hold that against people. Average start ages at many schools are in the 23-24 age precisely because so many take an extra year or two these days...

I started medical school in August of 1979 when I was 20; then, ~85% of entering students were traditional and were 22 years of age. Today, ~ 70% of entering students at the same school are traditional and 22 years of age; that 31 year-old non-trad really skews the average.

Competition for slots is fierce, and it's a numbers game upfront, but we'd still rather have students start right from undergraduate. And counter to your "thinking" stated above, (and present company probably excluded) traditional students do perform better statistically in medical school than do non-trads, exceptional students are found in both paths. We do look favorably at those applicants who do take a science courses heavy post-bac ("fifth year"), and they statistically do almost as well as traditionals.

One note, in exit interviews we have seen that fewer non-trads actually tried for AOA, both in numbers obviously, but also by percentage in either path-- due to a variety of reasons. We see that non-trads tend to be less "gunnerish" than their younger classmates (match lists reflect that difference in specific ways too) and we've had zero non-trads enter the MD/Ph.D. program in the last four years.

And counselor, previous lives matter-- we take a real long look at "other profession" applicants, especially from law. Seriously: we look at lawyers entering medical school as a type of inoculation for the class-- a little "infection" from that profession does the class some good.
 
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It would be worth looking into the characteristics of those don't succeed in law versus those who do. Law school attracts it's share of C-students. And it's share of people who wander in with no previous experience. When assigned a brief or memo for homework, they often don't even know what that is, let alone how to write one. Paralegal experience boosts your grades, and is ideal for employers and adcoms. You can also pre-study 1st year classes. People also tend to bumble into law for no better reason than, they don't know what else to do. (Not true of medical school, since those people are screened out from the beginning.)

I suspect that preparation makes a lot of difference.

As a law student who decided law wasnt for me, this is false. The issue is that there is a forced curve and come finals everyone knows the law well, its all about who can write an exam answer in the format law professors like, and they all have different preferences. That is why many people feel that grading in law school is arbitrary. The old adage is that you dont take contracts, you take contracts with professor x.

Paralegal experience has virtually no impact on grades outside of maybe legal research and writing, which is usually pass fail anyway at top schools.


As for the OP I cant tell you what to do but I can give you advice is you go to law school. I went to a lower ranked school with a full tuition scholarship because I was afraid of debt. DONT DO THAT. Go to the best school you get into. PAYE makes most of that debt irrelevant if you dont get biglaw. But where you go to school WILL follow you around forever unless you decide to go solo or start a small firm.
 
You're generally not doing really interesting stuff.

Not necessarily in my opinion.

The most prominent cases almost always go to teams of BigLaw lawyers and staff, and often to multiple firms even though you cannot talk about most of it (attorney-client privilege), you will know so much background, you'll see your colleagues and clients on the news, talk shows, etc. ...even during your vacations (if you turn on the tv). And these cases really do take a lot of time and work, and sometimes do take most of your time. Some specialties get fewer prominent cases than others, and it depends on what's going on in the world. Business use to not be as exciting prior to 2008. Again, it's not just the attorneys you see in the courtroom that work on these cases, it's teams.

Some of my favorite cases involving BigLaw:

The law suit over Men at Work's Land Down Under lyrics accusing them of ripping off [or not paying royalties to] Cucamonga Sits in the Old Gum Tree.

The many Michael Jackson lawsuits.

Terrorism suspects.

OJ.

Dirt in US Weekly.

2008 Financial Crisis players.

Politicians and their scandals.

Stem Cell Debate.

Healthcare Reform.

Ask a BigLaw attorney about this... Situations like the ones above higher big guns, and sometimes try to higher all the big guns strategically. If you higher a firm, or even consult with one in some cases, you're opposition usually will not higher them. They may be "conflicted out" or "disqualified" by a judge/arbitrator. BigLaw gets most of the prominent lawsuits. Again, really go to the source for stuff like this. Ask specific questions to someone who knows.
 
Browse autoadmit.com, and realize that you would be working with those people in biglaw.
 
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