Lawsuit threatens Remington

[Arch Guillotti]

@Arch Guillotti[/USER], please shut this thing down.

The thread is a dumpster fire what with all the gun fanboys clutching their pearls and screeching about "judicial activism" but the thread stands for now.

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[jwk]

Many people understand operating a vehicle at high speeds and can do it safely, but we have speed limits because when those who can’t be that responsible get behind the wheel they could kill others.

THATS the car analogy. We have limits because the average of the population can’t be trusted. Take away assault rifles, you don’t have the right to own them because they are too dangerous. Just like you don’t have the right to drive at high speeds on a shared road.

There is no other way to look at it. There is no argument for the American public to own assault rifles.

Define assault rifle. Seriously. Explain the differences between them and any other type of semi-automatic rifle with a magazine of any size. I'll wait.....

 

[deleted162650]

There is no argument for the American public to own assault rifles.

I actually think that the intent of the founding fathers was that the American public would in fact own assault rifles (or the period equivalent). The point of 2A is for the citizens to be able to resist an oppressive government. In order to do this, the public (and their militias) must have access to the same type of arms as the government run military.

 

[Mikkel]

Jesus. Mexican cartels get their guns and ammo from Amurrca!!! Hello! In exchange for supplying our drugs!

Operation Fast and Furious.

Gotta thank Eric Holder for that beauty.

 

[DrGasPasser]

It’s true Mexico, Guatemala, and Honduras have much higher gun violence rates than we do. Those people walking thousands of miles in the caravans were literally trying to save their own lives and the lives of their children. Most of the guns in Central America come from the United States because we have the laxest gun laws so it’s easy for straw buyers to get them here and pass them on for profit. They export strawberries, Volkswagens and meth. We export guns. It helps our trade balance.

This is a commonly cited statistic that is probably not completely true. While the majority of guns used in Mexican crimes come from America, that number includes a bunch of guns that were manufactured here but acquired through illicit means from the Mexican government. Naturally, the Mexican government has no interest in disclosing how many American manufactured guns were sold/stolen vs brought over the border. However, I can promise you the the M2 .50 cal machine gun and M249 SAW being used by the Sinaloa Cartel during their recent gunfight in Culiacan can not be bought at a US gun store or gun show. If they could, they would already be mounted on my Suburban.

 

[dannyboy1]

Define assault rifle. Seriously. Explain the differences between them and any other type of semi-automatic rifle with a magazine of any size. I'll wait.....

A rifle that is semiautomatic. Bolt action should be fine for hunting (not really sporting if you can just keep on shooting). It will also give the general public a lot more time to run away when the local whackjob starts shooting.

 

[GravelRider]

I actually think that the intent of the founding fathers was that the American public would in fact own assault rifles (or the period equivalent). The point of 2A is for the citizens to be able to resist an oppressive government. In order to do this, the public (and their militias) must have access to the same type of arms as the government run military.

SWEET! Where’s my tank? Grenades? What about a nuclear warhead? Let’s see those pansy libs try to tax me when I got a nuke on my front lawn.

Sometimes I think we get a little too romantic about the ability of an armed citizenry to overthrow a world power without the help of another world power.

 

[Neopolymath]

SWEET! Where’s my tank? Grenades? What about a nuclear warhead? Let’s see those pansy libs try to tax me when I got a nuke on my front lawn.

Sometimes I think we get a little too romantic about the ability of an armed citizenry to overthrow a world power without the help of another world power.

Don't worry. Some guy with 13 guns (and only two hands) will protect his family from legitimately militarized police LOL.

 

[Status Sciaticus]

I actually think that the intent of the founding fathers was that the American public would in fact own assault rifles (or the period equivalent). The point of 2A is for the citizens to be able to resist an oppressive government. In order to do this, the public (and their militias) must have access to the same type of arms as the government run military.

So youre going to bring assault rifles to a drone fight? Thats a bold strategy, Cotton.

 

[DrGasPasser]

SWEET! Where’s my tank? Grenades? What about a nuclear warhead? Let’s see those pansy libs try to tax me when I got a nuke on my front lawn.

Sometimes I think we get a little too romantic about the ability of an armed citizenry to overthrow a world power without the help of another world power.

Scalia had an interesting take on this before he passed that he shared in an interview. His take was the term “bearing arms” meant weapons that could be carried. Explosives were not considered arms as they are classified as destructive devices. He would not comment on automatic weapons stating that the Court may someday need to take up that question.

Regardless, I think there is no doubt that the Founding Fathers intended the 2A as a check on federal tyranny. That is covered pretty well in Federalist 25, 28, 46. However, I get the sense that the prevailing wisdom is that such a notion is a bit out of date. Perhaps we need an Article 5 Convention for some updates?

 

[DrGasPasser]

So youre going to bring assault rifles to a drone fight? Thats a bold strategy, Cotton.

I’ve been deployed to war 6 times since I was 18. Never underestimate the capability of a dedicated enemy willing to go to great lengths to ruin your day.

 

[deleted171991]

Seems like young men just can’t handle it.

Brandon Theesfeld: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know

Brandon Theesfeld has been arrested in the murder of University of Mississippi student Ally Kostial. She was found shot dead on July 20.

www.google.com

Young men can't handle a lot of things. They are usually the source of most social tension. That's one of the reasons college and compulsory military service were invented (anything to keep them occupied and brainwashed the right way, so they can integrate better in adult society). The lowering of the voting age was done with the same reason, so they can feel they have a voice and try to impact change democratically, not through violence.

 

[pgg]

SCOTUS probably did the right thing here.

First, the only thing they did was deny cert. No precedent is set. If the lower court ends up ruling against Remington, that decision can still be appealed. And of course it would be.

Second, the law that indemnifies companies when their products are used illegally does have an exception in it, if the company markets an illegal use. Ford can't be held liable if someone plows one of their cars into a crowd of people. However, if Ford runs ads extolling the Mustang's power using the example of dispersing crowds of protesters by doing donuts through them, they may be liable when someone does that.

This is the argument the plaintiffs are taking - specifically, that Remington's ads for Bushmaster rifles specifically promoted activity that would be illegal for civilian purchasers to carry out.

I think that's a stupid, contrived, and disingenuous argument, but the plaintiffs deserve their chance to lose in court.


Incidentally, from a gun owner's and 2A rights activist's perspective, denial of cert at this stage is probably a better result, strategically thinking. There's no guarantee the current makeup of the Court would rule in favor of Remington, as this is not a cut & dry 2A case. IF, and this is still a fairly big IF, the lower court ends up ruling against Remington, by the time that appeal hits SCOTUS there's a reasonable probability that Amy Coney Barrett will be occupying RBG's seat. If President Trump wins another term and replaces Breyer too, the outcome is essentially pre-ordained.

 

[pgg]

And anyway, what's the worst that happens if Remington loses and that loss isn't overturned by SCOTUS?

Gun manufacturers aren't going to quit making and selling guns because of one lost civil suit, any more than Cook County is going to stop doing OB because of that stupid $50M lawsuit. Worst case, they tone down the ads directed at neckbeards, and idiot range commandos will need to find their own inspiration to fuel their tacticool fantasies. I'm pretty sure the internet can fill that void.

 

[Planktonmd]

The manufacturers of any device used to commit a crime should be regulated by laws that limit who can use that device and what specifications that device must have to minimize that risk. If no such law exists due to political corruption and legislative incompetence, then we can't punish the manufacturer for selling a legal product to customers who pay for it.

 

[Mikkel]

The manufacturers of any device used to commit a crime should be regulated by laws that limit who can use that device and what specifications that device must have to minimize that risk. If no such law exists due to political corruption and legislative incompetence, then we can't punish the manufacturer for selling a legal product to customers who pay for it.

Knives?

Baseball bats?

Pillows?

Drills?

Portable drill presses?

Hammers?

Screw drivers?

Castor oil?

Gasoline?

 

[Merely]

I actually think that the intent of the founding fathers was that the American public would in fact own assault rifles (or the period equivalent). The point of 2A is for the citizens to be able to resist an oppressive government. In order to do this, the public (and their militias) must have access to the same type of arms as the government run military.

bro the government has nuclear bombs wtf is wrong with u

 

[T-burglar]

gun Owners are sick idiots with murder fantasies.

And if your revolutionary murder fantasy against an oppressive government comes to pass all you’ll get is a shameful end in a hail of superior firepower. The idea that a couple idiots with AR15s could defend themselves against even the local SWAT let alone the resources of the federal government is laughable.

The 2020 American public vs the US government in a war is not the same as the colonial civil war. You aren’t a threat to the government any more than an ant colony is a threat to an adult human

Statistically you’re more likely to get a family member or yourself killed through human error and the sheer idiocy of deciding to bring such a dangerous item into your home

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

bro the government has nuclear bombs wtf is wrong with u

Yep, that's why Iraq was pacified in weeks. Same with Afghanistan in the 80s (The Soviets had nukes too).

 

[dannyboy1]

Yep, that's why Iraq was pacified in weeks. Same with Afghanistan in the 80s (The Soviets had nukes too).

If we would have gone into iraq WWII style (carpet bombing and total war) it would have been over in 24 hours. We decided to go in as a police force.....
The whole idea was stupid..... we caused far more human suffering than saadam ever did........

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

If we would have gone into iraq WWII style (carpet bombing and total war) it would have been over in 24 hours. We decided to go in as a police force.....
The whole idea was stupid..... we caused far more human suffering than saadam ever did........

Not really wanting to go down that rabbit hole (not that I really disagree with you), but the point is having nukes doesn't mean much because no one is going to use them.

 

[BLADEMDA]

I appreciate PGG’s input on this matter. This society is so lawsuit happy that I can’t help but get upset at times. The activist juries and judges are a problem for all of us.

 

[Mikkel]

gun Owners are sick idiots with murder fantasies, and if your revolutionary murder fantasy against an oppressive government comes to pass all you’ll get is a shameful end in a hail of superior firepower.

Wow, you sure have a flair for denigrating the heroes of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising.

So the Jews were "shameful" for trying to fight the Nazis?

You're unbelievable, man.

 

[Mikkel]

According to Turd Burglar @T-burglar , here are some examples of the "shameful" ends of those who fight oppressive governments:

 

[Mikkel]

I'm honestly scared of people like @T-burglar. He seems like someone who would agree with, or worse, be hell-bent on supporting the destruction of other people if they got in the way of his political goals. See Tiannemen Square, Soviet Purges, Holocaust, those were all facilitated by willing participants.


Referring to those who fight against oppressive government as "shameful" is deeply chilling.

 

[Detective SnowBucket]

gun Owners are sick idiots with murder fantasies.

Yes......every single gun owner is interested in killing you....


I have a shotgun. I really enjoy trap shooting. That has nothing to do with killing anything.

 

[Mikkel]

Why aren't they suing the FFL that transferred the firearm? (Pockets not deep enough probably).

 

[BLADEMDA]

Our founders believed in the individual citizen’s right to bear arms. They thought it was so important that it is our second amendment.

If you disagree with that view then pass laws restricting the second amendment or repeal it entirely. But, until that time we all should respect the rights of others to responsibly own firearms.

Most gun owners support common sense proposals and understand the responsibility of owning a weapon like an AR15

 

[BLADEMDA]

The rate of homicides committed with semi-automatic AR-style rifles is 0.00293%, or 0.137 per 100,000 population. This is 44 times less than the total homicide rate, and 33 times less than the total homicide rate by all firearms.

 

[caligas]

Hey, some people love guns. Some people love children not getting shot. Different strokes, ya know.

 

[AngryAsian]

The rate of homicides committed with semi-automatic AR-style rifles is 0.00293%, or 0.137 per 100,000 population. This is 44 times less than the total homicide rate, and 33 times less than the total homicide rate by all firearms.

Immigrants (legal or illegal) are less likely to commit crimes in the US when compared to native-born Americans. But that doesn't stop illegal immigrants from being scapegoated by some.

 

[Mikkel]

Hey, some people love guns. Some people love children not getting shot. Different strokes, ya know.

The overlap between people who love guns and who also love children not getting shot is about 99.999999%.

So, what's your point? Take away guns from 99.999999% of lawful gun owners because of unlawful gun users?

 

[pgg]

gun Owners are sick idiots with murder fantasies.

And this here is yet another example of why I can't ever again vote for a Democrat, even though the Republican party makes me nauseous. You are openly contemptuous of me.

Any time some criminal uses a gun in a crime, you blame me.

In a way, I'm glad Beto spoke up at the Democratic debate and said, to applause, that he was going to confiscate guns. I'm glad that last week the Governor of Virginia spoke happily about all the gun control he was going to get started on with the new Democratic legislature, and that he needed to discuss details for confiscation before acting on that.

At least now there's nobody pretending that Democrats don't want to ban and confiscate all firearms. Of course they do. They always have.

You can go back more than a decade on this very forum, when Obama was running for his first term, when I argued that OF COURSE the Democrats wanted to ban and confiscate firearms. And you guys assured me that no, no, confiscation was a silly thing to be concerned about it, the Democrats would respect the 2nd Amendment. Hell, even some Republicans were in denial and didn't think it would happen.

And here we are.

And the hell of it is, libertarians like me are your natural allies on so many other subjects. I don't want Roe v Wade overturned, but it'll probably happen. I don't want gay rights curtailed. I don't want excessively pro-corporation and pro-business courts. I don't want knee jerk reflexive support for anything the police do. But elected Democrats and the judges they appoint are out to gut the 2nd Amendment. Over a decade ago, Justice Sotomayor lied in her confirmation hearing when directly questioned about the precedent in Heller. We knew she'd try to overturn it her first chance, and she tried a year later in McDonald. I don't really like what conservative judges are doing, but it's clear it's either them or we give up a basic civil right enumerated in the Constitution.

Democratic obsession with gun control (and Republican obsession with abortion) already got two SCOTUS Justices appointed by a President Trump - he squeaked out a win in 2016 in large part because of an open seat on the Court. Odds are not bad that he'll appoint a third in 2020. If he wins re-election, he'll probably replace Breyer, too. And appoint a young replacement for Thomas.

Because you think guns are icky, and you hate us for owning them.

Imagine where we'd be right now if you simply respected the 2nd Amendment as much as the 1st.

 

[pgg]

Hey, some people love guns. Some people love children not getting shot. Different strokes, ya know.

And here's another one arguing that gun owners don't care about kids getting shot.

Step 1, vilify your enemy.

 

[caligas]

And here's another one arguing that gun owners don't care about kids getting shot.

Step 1, vilify your enemy.

they generally SEEM to care more about their guns

 

[caligas]

The overlap between people who love guns and who also love children not getting shot is about 99.999999%.

So, what's your point? Take away guns from 99.999999% of lawful gun owners because of unlawful gun users?

yep. since you asked, if it was my choice I would take them all. I go full libtard snowflake on this issue, the common sense reform $hit just isnt taking off.

 

[nimbus]

“Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, and Honduras do not have substantial gun industries of their own. The governments of these countries rely on imports from abroad to supply their militaries and security forces. Most of the guns otherwise in circulation on the street are illegal and unregistered—and many come from sellers in the United States. Seventy per cent of guns recovered by authorities in Mexico, for instance, were originally sold in the U.S.—most of them in Texas, California, and Arizona, according to a Government Accountability Office report. Forty-nine per cent of weapons recovered in El Salvador came from the U.S., compared to forty-six per cent in Honduras and twenty-nine per cent in Guatemala. Harry Penate, an American adviser to the A.T.F. based in San Salvador, told The New Republic, “I feel as bad about guns going into Central America and Mexico as good, hard-working Colombians feel about cocaine going into the U.S.” There are at least seven hundred licensed gun dealers alongthe U.S.-Mexico border, and the illegal firearms trade in Mexico generates more than a hundred million dollars in annual revenue for U.S. gun makers.”

 

[Mikkel]

yep. since you asked, if it was my choice I would take them all. I go full libtard snowflake on this issue, the common sense reform $hit just isnt taking off.

Do you realize that means taking guns away from police, because police also kill other humans with firearms, some who are innocent?

And why would you confiscate guns from only law abiding citizens? Why don't you start confiscating guns from criminals first?

 

[deleted162650]

Hey, some people love guns. Some people love children not getting shot. Different strokes, ya know.

Oh relax dude. You can always have another kid.

 

[deleted162650]

yep. since you asked, if it was my choice I would take them all. I go full libtard snowflake on this issue, the common sense reform $hit just isnt taking off.

If you really cared about the kids, you’d go full libtard to ban swimming pools. Waaaaay more kids drown than get shot.

 

[caligas]

Do you realize that means taking guns away from police, because police also kill other humans with firearms, some who are innocent?

And why would you confiscate guns from only law abiding citizens? Why don't you start confiscating guns from criminals first?

Ok police can have guns.

we have a deal!!

 

[caligas]

If you really cared about the kids, you’d go full libtard to ban swimming pools. Waaaaay more kids drown than get shot.

true. But I successfully taught my kids to swim while failing to teach them to dodge bullets, so from a purely selfish standpoint I’m more worried about the guns.

 

[San Marzano]

The entertainment value of threads like this is very high. Keep it coming everyone you’re doing great.

 

[Lawpy]

This thread is... uh... an interesting read...

 

[Mikkel]

Tl;Dr:

Left: Confiscate the guns!

Right: That's illegal.

Left: you're stupid, you just want dead children.

Right: we don't want to be murdered by a future oppressive tyrannical government

Left: that's a fantasy. BTW, we're coming to your house to confiscate your guns, if you don't accept it we will kill you.

Right: [facepalm]

 

[dpmd]

This thread is... uh... an interesting read...

And people claim spf is bad

 

[deleted162650]

true. But I successfully taught my kids to swim while failing to teach them to dodge bullets, so from a purely selfish standpoint I’m more worried about the guns.

How about cars, bicycles, and household cleaning products all of which are more likely to kill your kids than guns. You’re proposing a very radical solution to a very rare problem.

 

[dpmd]

Can anyone share in here any of this supposed illegal activity promoting advertising that is at issue?

 

[caligas]

How about cars, bicycles, and household cleaning products all of which are more likely to kill your kids than guns. You’re proposing a very radical solution to a very rare problem.

I don’t think 40k deaths a year is very rare. But one massacre of children in a school was enough to make up my mind. Ive heard and I get all the the arguments on your side. Yes, household cleaners are scary too. I also acknowledge that guns aren’t going anywhere in the US so this conversation is pointless, you guys win, don’t be so pissed, celebrate! Go shoot something!

What the data says about gun deaths in the U.S.

More Americans died of gun-related injuries in 2021 than in any other year on record, according to the latest available statistics from the CDC.

www.pewresearch.org

 

[dpmd]

I don’t think 40k deaths a year is very rare. But one massacre of children in a school was enough to make up my mind. Ive heard and I get all the the arguments on your side. Yes, household cleaners are scary too. I also acknowledge that guns aren’t going anywhere in the US so this conversation is pointless, you guys win, don’t be so pissed, celebrate! Go shoot something!

What the data says about gun deaths in the U.S.

More Americans died of gun-related injuries in 2021 than in any other year on record, according to the latest available statistics from the CDC.

www.pewresearch.org

You don't think school shooting deaths which are a subset of the 40 percent of your 40k number which is itself 0.014 percent of the total deaths that same year is rare? Really?