Lcsw

[TMS@1987]

ok you guys, i dont want anyone to start fighting, but i have a few questions about being an LCSW and the current atmosphere of the mental health community in regards to the LCSW, and all that neat kean and groovy jazz. the last thread i read on here that was in regards to LCSW's was pretty gnarly, not gonna lie. and through reading that i got the impression that most of the mental health community really doesnt like LCSW's and they dont receive much respect (for the love of god dont flip out!).
the reason why i am concerned about this is because i am a sophmore psych major and i am looking at going to NYU for my MSW (i love the program and my school has a close relationship with them). my umltimate goal is to become an LCSW and work at a rape crisis center, or something in relation to trauma. but i dont want to do it if people are not going to respect me, but i dont have the money to do a PhD (my family isnt that well off and i dont want to take out student loans), and the MSW just genuinely seems like a better fit for me.
so, i guess my question is: what should i do? i want to do the MSW but from what i have read on here, alot of people are angry at LCSW's and i dont want to have to deal with that. i dont want to have to deal with my colleagues turning up their noses at me all the time.
just so we're clear, i dont want anyone posting on this if they are going to be demeaning or spiteful, or in anyway combative. criticism is not needed. you are all training to be therapists, so be civil or i will request that this thread be closed.

thank you

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[Therapist4Chnge]

I'll make sure it stays civil.....it is important to keep an open dialog about topics like this.

As for my 2 cents......most of my interactions with LSW (licensed social workers) and LCSWs (licensed clinical social workers) have been positive ones. Obviously you will run into a range just like every other profession. I think the rub (and negativity) that comes up is in regard to scope creep and a misunderstanding between the various training required for degrees.

Clinical psychologists and social workers work in pretty separate scopes of practice. It gets a bit confusing because I know there are more administrative programs and others that are more therapy focused. I won't pretend to know the first thing about navigating social services or anything related to that, though something that I know bothers clinicians (myself included) when I hear "you do therapy, I do therapy....there isn't a difference". I also think the political push to expand SW's scope has ruffled some feathers, especially considering there doesn't seem to be any more training required....which is concerning. I know this came up around assessments not too long ago. That is a protected area for clinicians and many got upset that people wanted to expand into that area, without any real (1 day seminars don't count) clinican training or stats/research classes, etc.

I think people on both sides don't know everything that is involved, and that leads to issues. I've heard some (incorrectly) describe LSW / LMHC as "the same thing that you learn in clinical psychology....but without all of the research and stuff." I'm sure that goes the other way, but I know I get annoyed when I hear stuff like that. I definitely have learned a good deal about SW on here, but I definitely have more to learn about it as a profession.

I think LSW/LCSW is a great path to go because of job security. You have a bit more flexibility than an LMHC or related degrees because of the government and quasi-government jobs that are available because of the social services side of the training. You won't make a lot of money, though some SWs I know do pretty well for themselves in private practice (they specialize).

-t

 

[pingouin]

ok you guys, i dont want anyone to start fighting, but i have a few questions about being an LCSW and the current atmosphere of the mental health community in regards to the LCSW, and all that neat kean and groovy jazz. the last thread i read on here that was in regards to LCSW's was pretty gnarly, not gonna lie. and through reading that i got the impression that most of the mental health community really doesnt like LCSW's and they dont receive much respect (for the love of god dont flip out!).
the reason why i am concerned about this is because i am a sophmore psych major and i am looking at going to NYU for my MSW (i love the program and my school has a close relationship with them). my umltimate goal is to become an LCSW and work at a rape crisis center, or something in relation to trauma. but i dont want to do it if people are not going to respect me, but i dont have the money to do a PhD (my family isnt that well off and i dont want to take out student loans), and the MSW just genuinely seems like a better fit for me.
so, i guess my question is: what should i do? i want to do the MSW but from what i have read on here, alot of people are angry at LCSW's and i dont want to have to deal with that. i dont want to have to deal with my colleagues turning up their noses at me all the time.
just so we're clear, i dont want anyone posting on this if they are going to be demeaning or spiteful, or in anyway combative. criticism is not needed. you are all training to be therapists, so be civil or i will request that this thread be closed.

thank you

Please remember that the SDN psychology forum represents a microcosm of the mental health community as a whole. I would caution you that basing a major decision on the opinions of a bunch strangers from a message board is probably not in your best interest. The complaints about SWs I see on SDN usually have to do with competency issues of a particular worker, not SWs as a whole. There are highly competent and not-as-competent SWs, as there are psychologists, physicians, dentists, veterinarians, etc etc etc.

I've been out of academia since 1998, and my experience, and that of my peers in the clinical practice realm, is that psychologists, psychiatrists, and masters-level counselors actually play quite nicely together. I actually referred a few practicing psychologists I know to some SDN threads a while back, and they were stunned at the animosity in a few of the posts, saying that they refer to the best clinician irrespective of degree and licensure.

As I said in the medical social work thread, SWs can be very highly respected if they provide a valuable service to the team with whom they're working. You have to know your stuff, and you have to be able to relay that effectively to others (both colleagues and clients) through your professional practice. Although I was referring to a hospital-based medical team, this also applies broad-spectrum. My private practice is about 1/2 direct referrals from psychiatrists who know me, or who were told by colleagues to refer to me. (The rest are insurance and EAP referrals, with the occasional "friend of a friend of a friend" sprinkled in.) As long as I'm getting the job done, they could care less which letters are after my name.

One other thing, being a NYU grad myself... if you're short on cash, it may not be the best place to go. Tuition was crazy-high when I was there, I can't imagine what it is now.. and I was Advanced Standing so I only had to pay for a year....

 

[ny1020]

Most of the people I work with now at a mental health clinic are LCSW's and most of them are truly impressive clinicians. LCSW's are welcome in all insurance panels, there is a lot of flexibility in terms of employment, and if you want to do trauma work in a clinic, then the LCSW path sounds ideal for you. I have never met anyone who looks down on LCSW's.

However, to support the previous post, I have to tell you that I have three friends who just graduated from MSW programs from NYU and Fordham and all three have pretty high student loans. I actually think going to a fully-funded PhD program would be cheaper than what they're going to be responsible for.

Do you know any practicing LCSW's? I would recommend talking to them about your concerns.

 

[PsyKardinal]

My LPC 2 cents

In professional practice, no one really cares about the letters after your name. I get along great with the MDs, PhDs, LCSWs, LMSWs, and what ever else may be floating around the community. Everyone has said it on here, bring something valuable to your team and you will be respected. Good luck in the decision.

Jeff

 

[socialcog]

My LPC 2 cents

In professional practice, no one really cares about the letters after your name. I get along great with the MDs, PhDs, LCSWs, LMSWs, and what ever else may be floating around the community. Everyone has said it on here, bring something valuable to your team and you will be respected. Good luck in the decision.

Jeff

On the whole, very true. And along the same lines as what psykardinal was saying, most patients do not really care about the credentials you hold. They are mostly concerned about getting good care. You can have a LCSW license a full private practice, respect from your peers if you are a sound clinician.

 

[TMS@1987]

what are some of the ways that social workers are intruding on psychologists territory? I don't know anything about this issue i'm afraid?

 

[socialcog]

what are some of the ways that social workers are intruding on psychologists territory? I don't know anything about this issue i'm afraid?

I'm not sure what you mean by "intruding on psychologists territory" but I am familiar with some of the more common gripes psychologists have with master's level clinician's. In terms of scope of practice (what is considered an allowed and ethic practice under the license), there is a lot of overlap between the two. In a private practice setting, it's virtually identical with testing the exception. Psychologists work MORE than twice as hard and twice as long than the master's level clinicians and can acrrue (depending on the program you attend) 4 times the debt.

I am a master's level clinician, and my very good friend is a clinical psychologist. We are both in full time practices and virtually have the same job. We have the same hourly rate, successful practices (mine a bit more successful), and are both respected and effective. It took him 4 extra years to get licensed and he is about $120,000 MORE in debt than me.

Keep in mind, he obtained amazing training and a much better education. I would be a bit peeved if I were in his shoes... if I received better training, more qualified and (waaaay more debt) and the LCSW next to me got the business over me because they charge $10 less than me. I would think they might be intruding on my territory.

BACK OFF!! MY PATIENT!!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

In a private practice setting, it's virtually identical with testing the exception. Psychologists work MORE than twice as hard and twice as long than the master's level clinicians and can acrrue (depending on the program you attend) 4 times the debt.

I am a master's level clinician, and my very good friend is a clinical psychologist. We are both in full time practices and virtually have the same job. We have the same hourly rate, successful practices (mine a bit more successful), and are both respected and effective. It took him 4 extra years to get licensed and he is about $120,000 MORE in debt than me.

This is why specialization is important.....if everyone is treated depressed people, the challenge is differentiating your services, which should support a higher fee. When I was a consultant, I was in the top bracket for what I charged hourly (never the most expensive, but higher than average), but I showed value which allowed for a steady stream of work. I think most people do a poor job of showing value in their work, which relegates them to widget pricing (submit your fee, and we'll choose the cheapest widget that fits)....which ultimately drives the price of service down.

I am a big supporter of multi-disciplinary (blended) practices for this exact reason. In a blended practice you can have your niches covered so you don't compete for clients. Referrals are easier to give because you aren't stepping on toes, and ultimately the client gets a better opportunity to work with someone who specializes in their particular area of need. Not to mention splitting admin costs among multiple people, pay a % of the sq. footage + maintenance cost, etc. It is quite the win/win if designed well (which is where I will come in. )

Keep in mind, he obtained amazing training and a much better education. I would be a bit peeved if I were in his shoes... if I received better training, more qualified and (waaaay more debt) and the LCSW next to me got the business over me because they charge $10 less than me. I would think they might be intruding on my territory.

BACK OFF!! MY PATIENT!!

It comes back to value.

It sounds like you have your niche, which is a nice place to be.


-t

 

[Blech]

I am a licensed clinical social worker in the mental health field who got excellent clinical training at a state school without going into much debt. I make $60,000/year, and until recently was working a second job part-time in an emergency room making $25K more. I am a respected member of my team, in fact in many ways social workers lead the teams on my inpatient forensic unit. We make less money than the psychiatrists, less money than the nurses, and slightly less money than the psychologists. But the pay is reasonably good. And our role is valued. Social workers are the ones doing individual and family therapy. The psychologists in my work place are focused on testing. I chose an MSW degree because of my interests in social justice, community & systemic change in addition to my interests in therapy and counseling. As social workers we are always called to be advocates for our clients/patients. I also appreciated the breadth of opportunity the degree provides. I have friends with MSWs who work in direct practice, policy, administration, private practice, and yes even research. My MSW program had a significant research focus in addition to the clinical focus. I think MSW programs are including a lot more research content than in the past. I agree with everyone who says that if you are a good clinician who brings something relevant and important to the table, it ultimately does not matter what your specific degree is when it comes to commanding respect and most importantly, helping your clients. What you do as a social worker is also highly dependent on where you work. However, I don't think it matters so much whether you go to a prestigious school for your MSW degree. Curriculum is standardized quite a bit for social work programs, and the most important thing when applying for jobs is experience.

 

[TMS@1987]

my main concern, right now, is that I'm going to go for an MSW and end up doing case management, which is not really where my head is at right now. I mean, I don't mind doing it, but I would much prefer for therapy/counseling to be my main focus on the job, and I am worried that the MSW won't allow me to do that. are my concerns valid?

 

[PsyKardinal]

The LMSW will restrict you more then the LCSW. The C - clinical part allows for independent practice, which I believe you are saying that you aspire toward. I am not sure how limited the LMSW is, but understand that getting your clinical license will allow for the greatest range of practice settings and formats.

Jeff

 

[pingouin]

I'm confused by the "I'm going to go for an MSW and end up doing case management" statement, as the MSW is a much more versatile degree than *just* case management. Sure, many people do it in many capacities, but not everyone, and certainly not for their entire career.

Depends on what kind of case management we're talking about, but let's use case manager/community support worker for a SPMI population at a community mental health center as an example. There are some people- both LPC and LCSW- who have been there for yeeeeeeeeaaaaarrrssss.. they are often the exception to the rule. Most case managers use that experience to cut their teeth in the field, get supervision for licensure, learn a lot about crisis intervention, building interpersonal skills, setting limits, psychopharmacology, differential diagnosis, community resources, and working on a multidisciplinary team. And once they get their license.. they get out and do something else. Simple as that. Around here, it's almost expected as a rite of passage at several agencies- "Oh, she's going to be licensed soon.. wonder when she's going to leave." My friends and I affectionately refer to them as "springboard jobs", b/c they help you make the jump to something else.

My point is- you're going to have to cut your teeth somewhere, since you (generally)can't do therapy/counseling with a MA Counseling or a MSW without having your license (there are a few rare exceptions). And you can't get your license without at least 2 years of experience (no exceptions that I know of). Look at the learning experiences I listed above- I use knowledge of every last one of those every single day in my private practice.

For the record, I'll be starting a new path next year and won't be working as a social worker anymore. I will be leaving with 10+ years of experience, and without having ever worked as a case manager, or for Division of Family Services or any other government agency.

 

[michalita]

What about getting direct clinical experience that counts towards licensure? What kinds of jobs "count" for this? Could you do a job that is primarily case management and still get the appropriate experience for licensure?

I also heard (from someone trying to get an LPC, but still) that the hours only start counting at certain marking periods. Is this true? You could start a job and those hours wouldn't count for, say, half a year because it isn't the next marking period yet?

(It's rather silly of me to get all up and anxious about this stuff considering I'm half way through my first semester as an MSW but I guess I'm trying to plan...)

 

[pingouin]

What about getting direct clinical experience that counts towards licensure? What kinds of jobs "count" for this? Could you do a job that is primarily case management and still get the appropriate experience for licensure?

I also heard (from someone trying to get an LPC, but still) that the hours only start counting at certain marking periods. Is this true? You could start a job and those hours wouldn't count for, say, half a year because it isn't the next marking period yet?

(It's rather silly of me to get all up and anxious about this stuff considering I'm half way through my first semester as an MSW but I guess I'm trying to plan...)

Obviously you haven't peeked in on the people in pre-allo asking about residency issues when they haven't been accepted to med school yet.

Addressing types of jobs- case management as I described above most certainly DOES count as clinical experience toward licensure. It's actually a very common job to have right out of grad school. I worked at a crisis hotline, both on the phone and doing mobile crisis assessment. Others I know got their starts at domestic violence agencies, and hospital-based behavioral health (intake, inpatient, day treatment). I know one woman who did her practicum at a community mental health center and was able to stay on as an adult-services therapist, but she was limited in what she could do b/c there was no insurance reimbursement. (I think she got a lot of the self-pay/sliding scale folks, and could see people through some grants we had.) Since for the LCSW "clinical" does not necessarily mean "mental health", I also know people who started in HIV/AIDS case management, Division of Family Services, medical social work, foster care, adoption, etc etc etc. As long as you're doing something where you're serving individuals, families, and/or groups, you're probably fine. If it's at a community or administration level, you're probably not fine.

I'm not familiar with the idea of "marking periods", but that could be state-by-state issue. Here, for the LCSW you have to register your supervision (and pay a fee) within 30 days of starting it. You can start at any time, and you have a minimum of 24 and maximum of 48 months to finish from the date of your registration. When you're done, you send in all the required paperwork (and pay a fee), your supervisor sends in all their required paperwork, and then the committee reviews the application for licensure and makes a decision.

Now, for the LPC in this state, I do remember that their committee used to only meet every 3 months to review applications, so maybe whoever you were talking to was referring to something like that? But I don't think there was any stipulation about when they could start. The only other thing I remember is that our LPC committee reviewed 2 of my colleagues' applications at the same time, and one was denied a license. Why? Because her experience was listed as "telephonic crisis counseling" and the other person's said "crisis counseling". Apparently "telephonic" was an issue, as she resubmitted without that word and got her license. The LCSW applicants (myself included) never had a problem with that.

 

[michalita]

Thanks! Wow, now I can rest easy -- or just start stressing about my papers again! I think I'm going to try to get hospital-based behavioral health work because I'm interning at a hospital and I like it, but of course I'll see what I can get when I'm done. (I'm also planning to start a family around then -- hence the pre-planning). As for the pre-allo residency questions, aren't medical school types a little, er, "type A"??

 

[pingouin]

Thanks! Wow, now I can rest easy -- or just start stressing about my papers again! I think I'm going to try to get hospital-based behavioral health work because I'm interning at a hospital and I like it, but of course I'll see what I can get when I'm done. (I'm also planning to start a family around then -- hence the pre-planning). As for the pre-allo residency questions, aren't medical school types a little, er, "type A"??

I believe the phrase you're looking for there is "detail-oriented", thankyouverymuch.


For the record, I recommend starting out in a job which will somehow teach you crisis intervention and/or suicide/homicide/self-injury assessment skills. This has been invaluable in every job I've moved onto. I once did a crisis intervention training for a meeting of our state's Society of Clinical Social Workers, and people told my supervisor and I that they'd never had a suicidal patient in 20+ years of practice. We decided they were either lying, or oblivious and not asking the right questions...

 

[michalita]

I believe the phrase you're looking for there is "detail-oriented", thankyouverymuch.

Ah yes, forgive my wording Apparently I'm not all that "detail-oriented." *cough*

For the record, I recommend starting out in a job which will somehow teach you crisis intervention and/or suicide/homicide/self-injury assessment skills. This has been invaluable in every job I've moved onto. I once did a crisis intervention training for a meeting of our state's Society of Clinical Social Workers, and people told my supervisor and I that they'd never had a suicidal patient in 20+ years of practice. We decided they were either lying, or oblivious and not asking the right questions...

Yeah, no kidding. I do some crisis intervention at my current placement because my clients are in a partial hospitalization program, often coming straight off the inpatient unit to our program. Sometimes they leave our program only to end up back in inpatient a few days later (this happened at least twice since I started) so those skills definitely do come into play. I've been a part of several interventions in terms of determining whether or not to Section someone. The crisis team is actually situated right next to the partial office so I do interact with them fairly regularly. I'm supposed to shadow the team for a day as well.

Thanks for the suggestion. That does sound like a great idea. I'm fairly worried about my assessment skills just in terms of responsibility and current lack of experience.