Leaving grad school?

[SnowBubble]

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Hi fellow SDNers,

I need some advice and I'm not sure where to start so I thought I'd turn here first. Any kind of feedback is much appreciated!

I just finished my first year of grad school in a clinical psychology phd program. It's a top school and was my first choice when I was applying. However, my end of the year faculty review didn't go so well. They've asked me to consider whether this program is really the right one for me. I've been working hard and have been fairly excited about everything; they too agree that attitude and effort aren't the problem. The consensus is that something is missing though. No one is quite sure what, but ideas on the table were passion, spark, creativity, etc.

I've been advised to do some soul-searching to see whether this is really the path I want to follow. I had thought about this before, of course, (applying/getting into grad school isn't easy!) and was confident that this is the only path for me, but now I have doubts. I feel like I'm still only getting my feet wet in terms of my training (I've defended my first year proposal and have tested neuropsych patients this year, but I haven't even seen clients yet), so maybe this was just a rough first year and things will get better. I loved research as an undergrad (my senior thesis and working in a research lab), so I don't know if part of the problem is just that I'm not interested in my current research project. And I think my research advisor is great, which I know can be rare. I've had a few serious personal problems that have come up this year that I've been working through resolving, so I have been distracted. Maybe fewer distractions might have raised fewer red flags for my faculty. Regardless, I think this is an important thing to consider. It's better I have and deal with doubts now than 5-6 years from now when I might graduate.

As a career, I thought I wanted to spend 60-70% of my time doing research, and the remaining seeing therapy patients. I've been advised though, to even consider professions outside the field of psychology. I think that if I decide to stick with it, maybe I can do better- work harder, give up my already minimal social life, engage with the material more- but the risk is that things don't get better, I waste more of everyone's time, money, and energy, and I graduate or don't as a bitter person. That's probably an exaggeration, but part of the problem is that it's not a simple fix situation. Even working harder might not be the key to remediating whatever is going wrong. I'm just not sure whether a phd is something you just "stick with" or "get through"... although I have heard otherwise..

Ultimately, I want a career that will make me happy, feel full-filled, make a decent amount of money, and utilize skills I have instead of making me feel inadequate for not "getting things" (which is currently part of the problem). I realize that's probably asking a lot though.

Of course no one can really help me figure out what to do (I've got to search my own soul, after all), but any advice or thoughts would be really helpful! Thank you all so much for reading such a long post and for any comments you might have!

Sincerely,

 

[Pragma]

This is indeed a very personal issue. Good luck as you make this important decision.

I am struck by how nonspecific the feedback sounds. It seems to me that whatever personal issues you had may have been enough for them to think they had to say something. I'd clarify and get a better sense for what the coming year will entail, and what changes they are expecting, specifically. It may help you with this decision.

 

[dumbledoresgirl]

I won't try to give you advice about what to do (stay or leave), both because I think it's a personal decision and because I haven't started my program yet and probably don't have any useful insight. I will say, however, that I can relate to you when you say that you've always thought this was the only career path for you. I can't imagine doing anything else, and I really hope that doesn't change. I guess I'm just thinking out loud (in writing?) here about what I would take into consideration if I were in this situation.

What I would suggest doing is to disregard the faculty feedback while you are doing your "soul searching." Forget what they said. How do you feel about it? Were you having these doubts before you had your evaluation? Or were your doubts sparked by the things that were said?

If you were already questioning yourself before you heard their feedback, then maybe they were just confirming what you were already thinking and it's worth it to consider a different career path. But if you were feeling OK after this year and your worries were sparked by the evaluation, and not by any issues you were having with the program, then maybe you would be ok if you stuck it out. I would definitely take Pragma's advice and ask them for more specific feedback / insight on how things might be different next year...but IMO, first it's important to figure out whether you want to continue. The other thing to consider is, if you decided to stay, how would that affect you relationships with different faculty members? Would they still support you / provide you with the best mentorship and supervision? Do you think they could be neutral in future evaluations?

Do you think the problem could be that you are just not happy with your program? And that you might be happier if you attended a less research-heavy program? Because you are happy with your advisor and you are ultimately interested in a research career, these questions may not be applicable. But it's definitely something to consider if you are thinking about leaving the program but still feel like you want a psychology-related career.

I wish you the best of luck with your decision--it's not an easy one, but the most important thing is that you do what is best for you, and not what everyone else thinks you should do.

 

[IT514]

Are the concerns coming from your advisor, or are they coming from a few faculty outside your area of interest? My program historically has divided reviews among the different camps (assessment vs therapy, basically).

 

[Doctor Eliza]

Do you know how your peers' year end reviews went? I ask because perhaps they treated everyone like this. In my program, our year end reviews were soul crushing and discouraging. By the end of the program I simply left my envelope sealed and filed it away because I knew it wouldn't be very constructive and would be discouraging.

Remember, faculty are primarily concerned with what is good for them, not what's good for you. For example, when I was over 5 years into my PhD program and essentially ABD and internship, one of my committee members suggested that if "all" I wanted to do was practice I should drop out and go to an MSW program. How in the world would that have been good for me to drop out near the finish line of my (funded) program to start over and pay for a new degree? You need to think about what you want.

Certainly, if you are miserable, there is life outside of clinical psych. Even if you are thinking of leaving, it might be beneficial to finish your MA first. Also, I don't know that I would make this decision after only one year unless the answer is extremely clear. Many people are happier in the 2nd year than the 1st.

Good luck. Let us know if there is anything else we can weigh in on.


Dr. E

 

[cara susanna]

That just seems like such vague feedback to me. I hate when motivation and interest in things is brought into question. Clinical psych is such a competitive field that I think it'd be pretty hard to get into a program without having some passion or dedication. And you're not going to enjoy every thing you do in grad school 100%. I mean seriously, how can you even work on what they said? They didn't give you any definable goals or specific feedback. It's like the evaluation equivalent of the "I love you, I'm just not *in love* with you" breakup line.

Anyway, my feelings aside 😉 I used to feel that clinical psych was the only field for me, but years of graduate school have made me realize that there are other jobs and careers out there that I could be happy in. Almost everyone in my program has some sort of "backup plan," haha. But I wouldn't leave the field unless you really, really wanted to, or if the faculty were able to provide more specific feedback about why they feel you shouldn't pursue it.

 

[erg923]

You get a bad review, but no one is able to tell you why, what to do about it, and isn't even able to put their finger on what the probem is. Sounds like a bunch of psychologists to me...

Regarding passion, spark, or whatever, so long as you aren't totally flat, do your work, and interact appropriately, then people should be free to express themsleves, or not express themselves, as they desire. Just because we aren't talking about patients (or our latest research project) with a smile from ear-to-ear or doing a dance during supervision doesn't mean we lack passion or commitment to the field. I mean, grad school is a job afterall, right? And, unless you're Matthew Mcconaughey, you don't always want to be at your job. That's just life. Doesn't provide any evidence of your "passion" for said job.

 

[Sanman]

I echo the sentiments of most here that this sounds like vague and rather senseless feedback. However, programs are political and I do wonder if you are not getting along with any faculty or fellow students. Think long and hard about your decision, but also keep in mind that graduate school is a bit different than other fields in that much of what is asked of you is completely subjective (dissertation, oral comprehensives, etc) and that means that you are being judged by these very people. The only reason I bring this up is that I had a good friend who did not mesh well with some faculty who was forced to leave his experimental psych PhD after failing oral comps while passing every objective measure (written comps and all exams) in his program until that point. It makes one wonder how he would have done in the orals process had the faculty liked him a bit more.

 

[wigflip]

Remember, faculty are primarily concerned with what is good for them, not what's good for you.

This. The crap I've seen profs pull over the last few years is freakin' unbelievable.

One thing you might consider is gathering more information about what your rights as a student are, and what (if any) obligations the department still has where you are regarded. I've heard of students getting a gentle nudge towards the door (in academic programs) and refusing to budge. They stick it out. One of my friends climbed to the top of her field despite repeated tear-downs bordering on hazing and was later told by his/her mentor that it was designed to get the grad student to rise to the occasion.

As others have said, it matters most what you want, independent of the stupid review. If after soul-searching you decide that "yes! This is what I want after all," gathering information about worst-case scenarios and procedural parameters may help you feel more empowered. if I were in your shoes, I'd likely:

1. Call your graduate division anonymously and find out what the uni's procedures for dismissal are. This is worst case scenario, but you might be surprised how difficult it can be to "get rid of" someone.

2. Find out if there is an ombudsman or someone impartial you can talk to without your department getting involved.

3. Discreetly talk to more advanced students in your department. Have students in years past been dismissed or encouraged to leave? Though I'm guessing that you probably have already hear this gossip by now, since grad school is all about schadenfreude.

4. Read any and everything you can get your hands on (departmental handbook, uni catalog) to inform yourself on procedures.

And though it's a last resort, remember, legal action isn't out of the question. Profs sue their departments all the time (when they don't get tenure, don't get promotions, etc.).

 

[roubs]

Sounds like a bunch of psychologists to me...

I had this exact thought. Leave it to a profession whose job it is to bring a bit of objectivity to assessment to give vague, non-specific feedback. That being said, all the negative feedback experiences I've heard of in my program involved specifics and a plan for improvement. One can hope that's more the norm?

 

[SnowBubble]

Oh good, I'm glad it's not just me who thought their feedback was vague and unhelpful! 🙄

The feedback of "missing something" was across the board in all areas of my performance. This makes me seriously doubt my ability. Am I smart enough to be in such a program? Maybe they're regretting their decision of accepting me?! I was having doubts this year about my capabilities, passion, and interest even before they brought it up, but I never had doubts about whether this was the right path for me. And I definitely never considered leaving the program! Maybe this is a test of sorts- to gauge my commitment when the going gets tough? I suppose I've been putting the faculty on a pedestal with their feedback, thinking that they are soo supportive and encouraging because they only want me to be happy. But actually, I guess they also don't want to continue to fully fund a student who's not giving enough back to them. Makes enough sense. True, I haven't been putting enough into this year as I could've (and maybe should've) but I find it's a fuzzy line between "enough to do well" and "too much of your body and soul."

I was thinking about approaching some of my professors from the classes I've had this year and asking them specifically what I was missing in their classes. I feel like my advisor can only explain the research side of things, and I already get that. I'm not passionate about my research project because I'm honestly not interested in it. But regarding my classes.. I thought I was participating enough. Increased engagement in the material in classes, I don't get that.. But you're right, I should worry about politics- so far I don't think I've given anyone reason to be unhappy with my attitude etc, but I wonder whether approaching professors directly would be a bad idea...? I agree, without definable goals, how could I ever improve? (And yes, lamest breakup line ever, 😎)

One thing I've been wondering about, and I've been looking into this in other threads too, is what kind of options a phd in clinical psychology offers. I personally feel it is a very versatile degree, and I really could do anything. Of course, coming from a research university, I "should" only want to get a tenure track research position. But I can honestly say that's not what I want. Sure, I want to do research, but I also want to do some clinical work, maybe as a director or something. I really like the idea of management, but not the MBA type of business management. A few upper class students have said this is completely normal and actually is wise because the slots for a research professor are limited and competitive. And after getting this review, my seniors have encouraged me to mask my interest in anything but research and even play up my enthusiasm for research in order to avoid increased tension with the faculty. I suppose the risk here would be deceiving myself in the process, about whether this really is the right path for me. But then again, that just brings me back to what are the options a phd in clinical psych offers that research faculty would never let me know exist?

Your thoughts have been so helpful! I have no idea how others' review went, but I can't believe I'm getting so lost in what my faculty want and are asking/thinking of me (or in this case not really asking but alluding to "something") and forgetting that I applied and got in for a reason! And I think I will look into what it takes to get kicked out, because barely passing is still passing. And this extreme encouragement to question my passion for this program seems a bit fishy... Regardless, I'm finding "soul searching" to be rather confusing! 😕

 

[paramour]

If it helps you feel any better (doubtful, I know), students call our evaluations "You Suck" letters. Cheery, eh? Oh, how you suck, let me count the ways . . . Something to look forward to on a yearly basis. *sigh* And we just received notice that they should be waiting for us in the next day or two. Woo hoo! 😳

 

[Ya Ya]

OP, what exactly do you mean when you say barely passing? I ask because within my program (funded PhD) you won't get kicked out for doing the minimum course-wise but you will get a prof development meeting. Also, are you sure that is all you got in the way of feedback? Where I am, my advisor collects data points (e.g. Grades, research progress, faculty interactions, etc) and uses that as the rationale for a good/bad review. I know that politics run rampant in all departments but I find it really hard to believe that a handful of people aren't providing you with concrete reasons. Did they give you a copy? if not, you have a right to see it.

 

[psychRA]

This "something missing" business is very confusing, and also concerning. If I understand you correctly, and your program is asking you to consider whether you really want to follow this path, they had better have some more specific reasons than just that. Programs have to report attrition data, so it's not in their best interest to lose a student unless they have larger concerns. Something is missing here.

I don't know how your program works, so I don't want to alarm you unecessarily, but if I were in your shoes, I'd be wondering if my program was (as wigflip suggested) trying to nudge me out the door. If this is the case, it's better to find this out sooner rather than later. If you decide that you want to stick things out in your program, I'd recommend being VERY direct with the faculty about the fact that you plan to stay, and that you'd like to meet with someone to come up with a plan to address their concerns. Insist on regular evaluations of your progress, if your department doesn't already do this. Make sure that all of these meetings are documented in writing. The goal here is to ensure that your deparment's expectations are cystal clear, and that there is no uncertainty as to whether or not you are meeting them.

Again, I don't mean to be alarmist, I just speak from secondhand experience; a friend of mine was dismissed from her program very late in the game, for a slew of concerns that, while valid, weren't communicated to her until it was too late to address them.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

I just love how psychologists are the ones who are using vague, subjective put-downs, no specific suggestions for change, and a good dose of negative reinforcement and punishment to critique students. Just lovely. Haven't we learned anything about how change occurs in people??

 

[dumbledoresgirl]

If it helps you feel any better (doubtful, I know), students call our evaluations "You Suck" letters. Cheery, eh? Oh, how you suck, let me count the ways . . . Something to look forward to on a yearly basis. *sigh* And we just received notice that they should be waiting for us in the next day or two. Woo hoo! 😳

😱
I thought evaluations were supposed to be "Here's What You're Doing Great and How You Can Be Better" letters? As you said, something to look forward to...🙄

 

[paramour]

This "something missing" business is very confusing, and also concerning. If I understand you correctly, and your program is asking you to consider whether you really want to follow this path, they had better have some more specific reasons than just that. Programs have to report attrition data, so it's not in their best interest to lose a student unless they have larger concerns. Something is missing here.

I don't know how your program works, so I don't want to alarm you unecessarily, but if I were in your shoes, I'd be wondering if my program was (as wigflip suggested) trying to nudge me out the door. If this is the case, it's better to find this out sooner rather than later. If you decide that you want to stick things out in your program, I'd recommend being VERY direct with the faculty about the fact that you plan to stay, and that you'd like to meet with someone to come up with a plan to address their concerns. Insist on regular evaluations of your progress, if your department doesn't already do this. Make sure that all of these meetings are documented in writing. The goal here is to ensure that your deparment's expectations are cystal clear, and that there is no uncertainty as to whether or not you are meeting them.

Again, I don't mean to be alarmist, I just speak from secondhand experience; a friend of mine was dismissed from her program very late in the game, for a slew of concerns that, while valid, weren't communicated to her until it was too late to address them.

Yeah, I sort of don't get this either. Our program does not have a great attrition rate (which needed to be explained on our site visit this last year), and they're not going to dismiss students unless there's a damned good reason for it. Unfortunately, faculty recently learned that this has become a "joke" in some of the "new/er" cohorts (i.e., they don't have to study for candidacies and can do a half-ass job on things b/c the faculty "can't/won't dismiss them because they need them"). 😱 Who thinks like this?! Our program does NOT WANT to dismiss students, but it has done so when they thought necessary.

Even in receiving negative evaluations, we're informed of exactly how they perceive us to not be up to par (which usually gives us a fairly good idea of what they want from us)... and, if not, then they typically address this is as well as far as what they expect from us in the future. I can't see receiving a letter that says, "You suck because... something's missing."

How are you supposed to address this? I would want something more definitive, more concrete. If you have concerns, then I would discuss it with your advisor and/or your DCT if necessary. We are required to sign off on our evaluation letters... and we also are provided the option to "respond" to them in writing (although most folks don't think it's worth the hassle for various reasons).

If you don't address this now and you do decide to stay, what happens if a situation plays out similar to the one psychRA mentioned? They eventually decide to dismiss you and you no longer have a choice in the matter? You may disagree then just as you may disagree now. But you never disagreed with their feedback aaand there's nothing on record to indicate as such, so there may be a limit on the options available to you.

If this "evaluation" is something that is documented, I would definitely think your options through very carefully. G'luck!

 

[paramour]

😱
I thought evaluations were supposed to be "Here's What You're Doing Great and How You Can Be Better" letters? As you said, something to look forward to...🙄

Most folks are usually "safe" their first year or two.

Faculty finally caught wind of the letters' names in the last year or so; they're trying to combat it by referring to them as "You Rock" letters. I don't believe it's having the desired effect . . . 😛

(I'm not sure why it took the faculty so long to figure this out because it's my understanding that the letters have been referred to in this manner for quite some time--it's by no means a recent development!)

 

[cara susanna]

Haha, I know people who won't even read their evals. I just skim mine. They are SO depressing.

 

[wigflip]

Haha, I know people who won't even read their evals. I just skim mine. They are SO depressing.

This sounds horrible; there is nothing like this in my (non-psych social science) program.* We do an annual review, but just submit our progress with courses and milestones, pubs, etc. No feedback unless we're really in trouble. For once I feel lucky to be where I am!

If anyone feels comfortable, I'd be interested to hear particular examples--what exactly do they say in the "You Suck" letters? Critiques of (their perceptions of) your clinical performance, or...? Please tell me they don't bring in petty, ridiculous stuff like personal appearance...?

*A top ranked department in my discipline did have a practice of issuing cohort ranks for a while. So you could be told, "In your cohort of 12, you are the absolute worst." And they had about a 50% attrition rate--40% encouraged to leave, 10% kicked out.

 

[paramour]

Please tell me they don't bring in petty, ridiculous stuff like personal appearance...?

I know of at least two students who have been commented on re: personal appearance to the point where they were very real issues. One was informed that she needed to make more effort to be more feminine, wear more make-up, be more dress-y, etc. Another was more informed that she needed to take more care in "downplaying" her physical attributes so that men did not ogle her (because she was, well, let's say "curvaceous"). The fact that she was particularly well-endowed was apparently a problem... even with those puppies covered, they were an issue somehow, and she needed to do more to be/seem subservient so she didn't come across as the wanton woman on the village corner.

Oh, yeah, those ombudsmen? Not always impartial.

 

[paramour]

Haha, I know people who won't even read their evals. I just skim mine. They are SO depressing.

I know folks who do this as well. They just sign & return them without ever looking twice at them because they don't believe it worth the effort or frustration.

 

[cara susanna]

This sounds horrible; there is nothing like this in my (non-psych social science) program.* We do an annual review, but just submit our progress with courses and milestones, pubs, etc. No feedback unless we're really in trouble. For once I feel lucky to be where I am!

If anyone feels comfortable, I'd be interested to hear particular examples--what exactly do they say in the "You Suck" letters? Critiques of (their perceptions of) your clinical performance, or...? Please tell me they don't bring in petty, ridiculous stuff like personal appearance...?

*A top ranked department in my discipline did have a practice of issuing cohort ranks for a while. So you could be told, "In your cohort of 12, you are the absolute worst." And they had about a 50% attrition rate--40% encouraged to leave, 10% kicked out.

Mine is always about how I come across as anxious. Haha.

 

[SnowBubble]

When I say barely passing, my research advisor said I was the first student in a long time to get mostly A- 's in my classes. In the 6 classes I've taken this past year, I've gotten 3 A- 's and 3 A's. He also said my professors said I'm on the bottom half of my class. There are six of us in the clinical cohort. Also, I've never had any personal feedback that I'm doing incredibly poorly.. sure, I had to rewrite my first few comprehensive neuropsych reports.. but the way I see it, if I already knew how to do all these things, I wouldn't be in grad school! But on all my papers and class assignments where we've gotten actually letter grades, I've been getting A's and A-'s. In fact, I got the second highest score on a stats midterm in a class of 60 or so. That to me does not indicate barely passing, but according to the faculty, I'm just scraping by... Besides discussing my grades, the only other feedback was my advisor having me reflect on the quality of my written work this past year. He asked me, "do you feel your writing has been creative or thoughtful in your courses"... "Uhh, I guess not" was my response in my head. And as far as research progress, I did pass my first year proposal defense, but I went through dozens of draft revisions and struggled to answer the questions in a way that I knew I wasn't really making sense. So yeah, I get that I may not be the most talented researcher, but I haven't failed anything! Maybe this end of the year faculty meeting was a professional development meeting? Ya Ya, what is the difference between an end of year review and a prof development mtg? Is the latter something I sit in on?

Also, I haven't been given any written feedback.. Is this something I should ask for or something they will soon give me? I feel a bit awkward asking for all their comments in writing, although I definitely see how it can later be used to protect myself in a worst case scenario! But even for myself, I think people are forced to be a bit more concrete in written feedback as opposed to orally when there's opportunity for hand flourishing...

You guys are right. it's not in their best interest to lose me, I was actually thinking about this during my meeting with my advisor. Maybe there is something they're not telling me, because things are not adding up...

psychRA, that is an excellent idea. I am going to ask for regular progress evals (ours are currently just year end reviews) so things are crystal clear. I think I will ask to meet with someone to come up with a plan to address their concerns, because frankly, it seems like this could easily become a situation where they ask me to leave next year for lack of "increasing passion" or whatever.

paramour, I didn't know it was possible to disagree with their feedback.. because if that's the case, I definitely disagree. I participated way more in class discussions than the majority of my class. Is class participation different from engagement in the material though?

I'm going to make it clear to them that I don't intend to leave. I'm not going to let them bully me out! 😡

 

[Sanman]

When I say barely passing, my research advisor said I was the first student in a long time to get mostly A- 's in my classes. In the 6 classes I've taken this past year, I've gotten 3 A- 's and 3 A's. He also said my professors said I'm on the bottom half of my class. There are six of us in the clinical cohort.

Blah, the range is so narrow I don't eve know what that means. For the record, I was dead last academically in my cohort of 9 (still had a 3.7 gpa). I still landed better internships and jobs than some of them. At the end of the day I wanted a life and had a chronic health condition to manage. I preferred healthy, happy, and slightly academically behind (never became a real problem other than people yelling at me to proof read some of my work) my cohort than being sick and miserable. At the end of the day, I was a happier person and I still have the same doctorate the rest of my classmates do.

 

[SnowBubble]

. At the end of the day, I was a happier person and I still have the same doctorate the rest of my classmates do.

Yeah, that's all I want. I don't need to be the best. I just want to use this degree to move forward with my life. I see grad school as a job, not my life. But I suppose that's part of the problem?

I figure, I worked so hard in undergrad to get here, now that I'm in, I just want to pass and graduate. But maybe that's illogical? I guess I should want to try to be excellent here as well. But then, if that leads to an awesome next stage in my life... excellence is hard to continually strive for, and IMHO I'm not sure it's worth it.

 

[Pragma]

I apologize for narrowing in on one thing, but did you say that you have been responsible for writing more than "a few" comprehensive neuropsychological assessment reports as a first year?

 

[G Costanza]

Maybe this is all just one big paradoxical intervention.

 

[wigflip]

I know of at least two students who have been commented on re: personal appearance to the point where they were very real issues. One was informed that she needed to make more effort to be more feminine, wear more make-up, be more dress-y, etc. Another was more informed that she needed to take more care in "downplaying" her physical attributes so that men did not ogle her (because she was, well, let's say "curvaceous"). The fact that she was particularly well-endowed was apparently a problem... even with those puppies covered, they were an issue somehow, and she needed to do more to be/seem subservient so she didn't come across as the wanton woman on the village corner.

Thanks paramour and cara--this is why sdn is worth its weight in gold. This is almost unbelievably absurd (above), and yet is most likely the kind of feedback I would get ("bind your giant ta-tas and wear a pretty flowery dress and heels. Oh, and pucker up! It's lipstick time for you!"). It's really troubling what backwards *****s some of these "highly educated" people are. Good to know my cynicism is warranted--I usually automatically assume that anyone with any amount of power is going to be crazy/unjust/unreasonable/abusive and I'm rarely surprised. Gender is so personal--for me to wear a dress, makeup and heels is really no different than asking a man to wear them to work. It's drag. If I was given that kind of feedback, I'd be tempted to add a feather boa and body glitter for good measure. That's not my gender, dummies.

OP: good for you! You've got the fightback spirit. Don't let knuckleheads piss on your dreams--cover your ass and get through it. Again, it might be good to familiarize yourself with what the department can and can't do. Sometimes policy is deliberately left vague to provide those in power with loopholes and leeway. But you might find that criteria are very specific and you're more protected than you think. There's nothing objectively bad about A-s--some of the top funding folks in my program have gotten B+s--it's a matter of what's codified in terms of written policy. Use that to your advantage if you can and give 'em the Bronx cheer when you have your diploma in hand.

 

[Pragma]

Thanks paramour and cara--this is why sdn is worth its weight in gold. This is almost unbelievably absurd (above), and yet is most likely the kind of feedback I would get ("bind your giant ta-tas and wear a pretty flowery dress and heels. Oh, and pucker up! It's lipstick time for you!"). It's really troubling what backwards *****s some of these "highly educated" people are. Good to know my cynicism is warranted--I usually automatically assume that anyone with any amount of power is going to be crazy/unjust/unreasonable/abusive and I'm rarely surprised. Gender is so personal--for me to wear a dress, makeup and heels is really no different than asking a man to wear them to work. It's drag. If I was given that kind of feedback, I'd be tempted to add a feather boa and body glitter for good measure. That's not my gender, dummies.

OP: good for you! You've got the fightback spirit. Don't let knuckleheads piss on your dreams--cover your ass and get through it. Again, it might be good to familiarize yourself with what the department can and can't do. Sometimes policy is deliberately left vague to provide those in power with loopholes and leeway. But you might find that criteria are very specific and you're more protected than you think. There's nothing objectively bad about A-s--some of the top funding folks in my program have gotten B+s--it's a matter of what's codified in terms of written policy. Use that to your advantage if you can and give 'em the Bronx cheer when you have your diploma in hand.

Some of the women I knew on internship had a supervisor that asked them to dress more conservatively (e.g., show less skin).

How is this type of feedback compared to what you mentioned earlier (i.e., dress more "feminine")? How much of a difference does it make if it comes from a female supervisor than a male supervisor?

In general, I'd imagine that any comments about one's appearance could be construed as harassment, provided you are dressing within the organizational parameters for dress code.

 

[wigflip]

Some of the women I knew on internship had a supervisor that asked them to dress more conservatively (e.g., show less skin).

How is this type of feedback compared to what you mentioned earlier (i.e., dress more "feminine")? How much of a difference does it make if it comes from a female supervisor than a male supervisor?

"Less skin" is acceptable--if you're really showing skin. If you just happen to be curvaceous and/or fat, it's body harassment. I've been harassed about my body shape and size since at least 5th grade. I expect it of boys playing 4-square in the playground (though it's still unacceptable), not highly educated people who are entrusted to evaluate you professionally. Actually, to be frank, I do expect it of the latter group as well, it just disgusts me even more.

"Consider wearing something other than your Black Flag t-shirt" is acceptable if rock/punk t-shirts ain't in the dress code.

Telling women to "femme it up" is discriminatory. Outside of employment in the sex industry, entertainment, or drag shows, there really is no job which should require makeup, high heels, or dresses/skirts. I'd be more suspicious if receiving such feedback from a man, but equally pissed if receiving it from a woman.

In general, I'd imagine that any comments about one's appearance could be construed as harassment, provided you are dressing within the organizational parameters for dress code.

I agree. Unless the dress code is idiotic (requiring dresses some 160 years after the invention of "bloomers").

Hubby just sent me a quote which seems to sum this up:

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." --Mark Twain

 

[Pragma]

"Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." --Mark Twain

I dig it - sort of sums up how I feel about APA 😉

 

[Pragma]

Also, I've never had any personal feedback that I'm doing incredibly poorly.. sure, I had to rewrite my first few comprehensive neuropsych reports.. but the way I see it, if I already knew how to do all these things, I wouldn't be in grad school!

I want to follow-up on this. I am really curious what program has you working on comprehensive neuropsych reports during your first year. That seems way too early to me - you've got to get your basic testing coursework and REGULAR integrative reports figured out before you should be doing this. I would never have felt competent to be doing this during my first year.

For the record, I'm a "7th year" (2nd year of neuropsych postdoc) and I still get feedback on my reports. They have to at least make it look like you need to learn more. How else could they justify the indentured servitude of training?

 

[SnowBubble]

I want to follow-up on this. I am really curious what program has you working on comprehensive neuropsych reports during your first year. That seems way too early to me - you've got to get your basic testing coursework and REGULAR integrative reports figured out before you should be doing this. I would never have felt competent to be doing this during my first year.

For the record, I'm a "7th year" (2nd year of neuropsych postdoc) and I still get feedback on my reports. They have to at least make it look like you need to learn more. How else could they justify the indentured servitude of training?

Let me make sure I'm getting the terminology right- is comprehensive the same as integrated reports? Because I've so far I've had to write 3 reports (where I write about cognitive functioning/achievement tests and mood tests), and several non integrated reports.. I could be getting the terms mixed up, in which case I apologize for making the situation worse than it is! 😱

 

[Pragma]

Let me make sure I'm getting the terminology right- is comprehensive the same as integrated reports? Because I've so far I've had to write 3 reports (where I write about cognitive functioning/achievement tests and mood tests), and several non integrated reports.. I could be getting the terms mixed up, in which case I apologize for making the situation worse than it is! 😱

I am guessing. But "neuropsychology" is specialized assessment, typically reserved for after you have mastered the art of writing standard psychological reports.

 

[LivingOffLoans]

I'd be wondering if my program was (as wigflip suggested) trying to nudge me out the door.

Same thoughts here.

 

[SnowBubble]

OP: good for you! You've got the fightback spirit. Don't let knuckleheads piss on your dreams--cover your ass and get through it. Again, it might be good to familiarize yourself with what the department can and can't do. Sometimes policy is deliberately left vague to provide those in power with loopholes and leeway. But you might find that criteria are very specific and you're more protected than you think. There's nothing objectively bad about A-s--some of the top funding folks in my program have gotten B+s--it's a matter of what's codified in terms of written policy. Use that to your advantage if you can and give 'em the Bronx cheer when you have your diploma in hand.

Thank you!! 🙂 I think not being confident can really show through (especially when working with psychologists!). As I've heard, if you don't believe in your own capabilities, how can anyone else?

Yeah, I've looked into the policy a bit and you can only officially get kicked out for grades lower than B's and I suppose unethical things like sleeping with your patients, which I don't plan on doing 😉

If it helps you feel any better (doubtful, I know), students call our evaluations "You Suck" letters. Cheery, eh? Oh, how you suck, let me count the ways . . . Something to look forward to on a yearly basis. *sigh* And we just received notice that they should be waiting for us in the next day or two. Woo hoo! 😳

Well, it's nice to know it's not just me who feels this way. Hopefully your feedback was okay!

Also, paramour, do you know if feedback is always through letters? Should I be asking for written feedback or is that something that is given to me?

I apologize for narrowing in on one thing, but did you say that you have been responsible for writing more than "a few" comprehensive neuropsychological assessment reports as a first year?

What are things that a typical first-year should be able to do? I'm not sure if you would know.. just putting this question out there. Of course, different universities have differing standards..

 

[Pragma]

What are things that a typical first-year should be able to do? I'm not sure if you would know.. just putting this question out there. Of course, different universities have differing standards..

Well, a lot of programs do have different standards. I have heard of some putting you into a practicum right away your first year, but most programs I am familiar with wait for that until your second year. Presumably, you need to gain some academic expertise before you start seeing patients. If there is a first year practicum, writing integrated reports would be hard to do (you haven't even taken the APA testing sequence yet - so you don't even understand the tests you are giving!). Writing comprehensive neuropsychological assessments would be A LOT HARDER to do your first year.

I am sure some places out there do it, but it has to be pretty boilerplate and IMO, it is way too early to be doing that type of work.

Edit: I would imagine most FIRST-year practicums would involve more group work, perhaps some individual therapy, and a lot of didactics to get you trained up. These would almost certainly have to be in-house. How can a program take students and then send them off to do clinical work before they have even taken a class?

 

[Marissa4usa]

Yeah, I've looked into the policy a bit and you can only officially get kicked out for grades lower than B's and I suppose unethical things like sleeping with your patients, which I don't plan on doing 😉

That's pretty standard - most schools don't allow for more than one or (two at the very most) C's and if your GPA falls below 3.0, you're in trouble.

But seriously, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that a GPA of 3.85 is bad in any way, even if you had the lowest GPA of your cohort.

 

[EmotRegulation]

OP: You should absolutely ask for written feedback. In fact, you could even consider going here: http://www.apa.org/ed/graduate/competency.aspx and looking at some of the competency benchmark documents (the most applicable to a first year is the practicum readiness one, though the Appendix is also worth looking at, as it's got a greater number of specific behavioral markers). This will give you a good idea of what is required for an early student. You could ask them to fill it out for you, and perhaps to note ipsative strengths and weaknesses.

Getting a few A-s shouldn't be reason to tell you to consider another field, so it appears that something is missing. If you use the competency benchmarks document, get specific feedback about the interpersonal/relational domains, as these are the hardest to document and cause a large chunk of the problems that occur between students and faculty/programs. That area is also the area where faculty are notoriously shyest about giving feedback.

It could be that they are just weirdly picky about some slightly lower grades or comparing amongst a cohort, where you might be less of a "rock star" (but prefer to not to push/stress yourself out). Or it could be they are concerned about your abilities/capacities in some way that they think will prevent you from a successful career. The former is no big deal, as has been pointed out by others, the latter...may be a harbinger of things to come.

 

[PsychPhDone]

What the hell kind of feedback is that?! Needing more creativity in coursework??!!! Am I the only one who thinks this in bonkers, especially in a research-focused program? We're encouraged to do well in courses and use course assignments (typically study proposals) as opportunities to plan out research. Or get them done and then do research. I don't think anyone would care about the level of my spark as long as I was publishing, postering, seeing clients, teaching, and not smelling bad. They do care very much that we are self-caring and reasonably okay otherwise. But "something missing"?! Sorry, for some reason this type of feedback made me crazy on your behalf.

For what it's worth, our end of year letters are mostly cheerleadery. I read mine when I have an imposter syndrome day. Mine might not be great this year but I've never heard of a bad letter.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

Maybe this is all just one big paradoxical intervention.

I think I'll tell myself that next time it happens to me!

 

[G Costanza]

I think I'll tell myself that next time it happens to me!

But if you see what's really happening it won't work. 😉

 

[SnowBubble]

I am guessing. But "neuropsychology" is specialized assessment, typically reserved for after you have mastered the art of writing standard psychological reports.

Agreed. So yes, I've had to do both in my first year and my reports were awful. But I think that should be expected, I just didn't know after 3 I would already be judged as merely adequate. 😡

Well, a lot of programs do have different standards. I have heard of some putting you into a practicum right away your first year, but most programs I am familiar with wait for that until your second year. Presumably, you need to gain some academic expertise before you start seeing patients. If there is a first year practicum, writing integrated reports would be hard to do (you haven't even taken the APA testing sequence yet - so you don't even understand the tests you are giving!). Writing comprehensive neuropsychological assessments would be A LOT HARDER to do your first year.

I am sure some places out there do it, but it has to be pretty boilerplate and IMO, it is way too early to be doing that type of work.

Edit: I would imagine most FIRST-year practicums would involve more group work, perhaps some individual therapy, and a lot of didactics to get you trained up. These would almost certainly have to be in-house. How can a program take students and then send them off to do clinical work before they have even taken a class?

Hmm, I suppose it varies a lot then? In my program, in my first semester (of first-year) I took a neuropsychological assessment class and then in the second semester we had a practicum class that included a neuropsych placement off-campus and a group supervision component on-campus. We also had one-on-one supervision with out placement supervisors. We wrote reports both for our placement sites (based on their requirements) and separate reports for our group supervision practicum class. It was certainly a lot of work, but I guess that means more hours? Oh and all of this continues throughout the summer, but I guess that's normal. 🙄

OP: You should absolutely ask for written feedback. In fact, you could even consider going here: http://www.apa.org/ed/graduate/competency.aspx and looking at some of the competency benchmark documents (the most applicable to a first year is the practicum readiness one, though the Appendix is also worth looking at, as it's got a greater number of specific behavioral markers). This will give you a good idea of what is required for an early student. You could ask them to fill it out for you, and perhaps to note ipsative strengths and weaknesses.

Getting a few A-s shouldn't be reason to tell you to consider another field, so it appears that something is missing. If you use the competency benchmarks document, get specific feedback about the interpersonal/relational domains, as these are the hardest to document and cause a large chunk of the problems that occur between students and faculty/programs. That area is also the area where faculty are notoriously shyest about giving feedback.

It could be that they are just weirdly picky about some slightly lower grades or comparing amongst a cohort, where you might be less of a "rock star" (but prefer to not to push/stress yourself out). Or it could be they are concerned about your abilities/capacities in some way that they think will prevent you from a successful career. The former is no big deal, as has been pointed out by others, the latter...may be a harbinger of things to come.

Thanks for this link!! I'm also going to check with some senior students to see whether they're been given written feedback or if there's some protocol to ask for it... RE the strengths and weakness.. I was told it appears I have no strengths and I'm just adequate in all areas... So I'm just going to chalk all this up to first-year adjustment and personal issues because although I appreciate their concern (or I'm trying to be appreciative) I don't think it's valid and I doubt it will reliably predict my future success. I doubt having no strengths got me into grad school. I'm not saying I'm the brightest, because I'm not. But I'm also not incompetent. I'd like to think I'm a balanced person with a healthy dose of strengths and weaknesses. I do think it is important to get written feedback though, and like was also earlier suggested, I'm going to ask for "progress reports" or something concrete because I do not want to one day be put in a situation where they do ask me to leave.

 

[SnowBubble]

But seriously, I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that a GPA of 3.85 is bad in any way, even if you had the lowest GPA of your cohort.

What the hell kind of feedback is that?! Needing more creativity in coursework??!!! Am I the only one who thinks this in bonkers, especially in a research-focused program? We're encouraged to do well in courses and use course assignments (typically study proposals) as opportunities to plan out research. Or get them done and then do research. I don't think anyone would care about the level of my spark as long as I was publishing, postering, seeing clients, teaching, and not smelling bad. They do care very much that we are self-caring and reasonably okay otherwise. But "something missing"?! Sorry, for some reason this type of feedback made me crazy on your behalf .

SDNers, thank you all so much for your empathy, concern, thoughts, feedback, and advice!! Your responses have made me feel so validated 😀 I'm meeting with my advisor in two weeks so we'll see how that goes... I'll be making it clear I intend to stay, asking for written feedback and specific goals, and suggesting progress reports/meetings to make sure my performance is improving! Wish me luck!

-S

 

[Pragma]

Good luck with managing this situation. Your faculty owe you more constructive feedback.

 

[Pragma]

Hmm. I don't post much on here anymore, but I think I'll comment on this. My perspective: I earned a PhD a while back. I'm early faculty at an R1 in a medical department (not psychology).

Psychology departments can be full of some, well, strange people. I am not sure why. I had a bunch of trouble my first year of graduate school. And, it was inane stuff. No one asked me to leave. But, there were many expressions of concern by various faculty about my future, my attitude, and my attire (apparently they didn't like the holes in my jeans or sweatshirts. . . fair criticism). There were also many expressions of support with faculty saying I was brilliant and a future star. Hard to reconcile, yeah? In fact, though I wasn't there, I sparked a major argument when they were rating students in their faculty meetings. We were ranked on one variable (research) and apparently I was polarizing (a faction wanted me ranked at the top and another, at the bottom). Unlike the OP, I didn't have all As, I barely passed (mostly Bs) the first year. At the end of the Spring semester, I had to argue with two professors about their grading. The thing of it is, in my humble opinion, I never actually answered any of their test questions wrong. There were objective components and subjective components. On the objective components, I was hitting at nearly 100% rate. On the subjective components, 2 professors were bottoming me out. This sounds somewhat similar to the OP (the subjective, vague, something missing issue). In my case, the something missing was a stylistic issue and a political issue (conflicts between my mentor and the faculty members in question). In retrospect, I fit in much better in the medical world and probably should have gone to medical school. In any case, I almost quit. Not because I thought I couldn't do it, but because I thought they were *****s and, if that's how the field was, why should I be associated with it? More specifically, I found that there were many faculty there ruled more by emotion than reason. It's science. WTF? But, that digression aside, I think you'll find that success in science and graduate school is not only about the objective things, but the subjective things. Networking. Being likeable. So, in your shoes, what I'd consider is this. If you want to stick it out, fine. Psychologists love a redemption story. You don't necessarily even have to work harder. Communicate. If you're doing a project, form the idea with faculty before execution. Get them to agree to the plan and that it's good. That way, when they get it, it's something they've already thought about and invested in. Work on the networking aspect of things. Be nice, be assertive, state your opinions, defend them. Show investment. Understand what the faculty members do, their research areas. Etc. . . If you want to bail, I'd consider going to medical school.

Great insight and interesting to hear about that experience.

I just have to comment though - medical schools also can be full of some, well, strange people.

There will be more emphasis on objective measures of performance in medical school, but there is still PLENTY of subjective evaluation. The students and residents where I am tell me about it all the time.

 

[Pragma]

Pragma,

I believe that's true in any field. In fact, I think subjective things/networking drive success more than objective things.

I agree with you. But I also think that the people are generally weirder in mental health settings (Psychology Department, Psychiatry Department) compared to, say Neurology. At least that has been my experience.