LECOM Post Bac vs AUC

[Ace23]

Hey everyone, I'll start by the usual statement of "I did a search but didn't find exactly what I wanted," but it's true haha. I was accepted into LECOM's post bac a week ago and AUC two days ago; for the past two days I've been reading through forums and asking people's opinions for which to do. I know there is a lot of information concerning both of these topics already available for me to read, however I still need more specific input concerning this decision.

I'm from Western PA, so I'm familiar with Erie and the school. If I were accepted into their DO program, there would be no question which I would do (DO over Carib hands down), however I wasn't accepted into their DO program, which people tend to ignore. Yes, I will most likely earn a 3.0 so I can gain acceptance into their DO program, but it isn't a guarantee. If I don't make it into their DO program for one reason or another, then I've lost my opportunity with AUC as well probably. In addition, I plan to practice in PA, which requires the Osteopathic Internship sometimes (I'm still not completely clear on that). This means it could take me 2 extra years compared to AUC. As for matches, I'm considering fairly competitive specialties, anesthesiology and general surgery, so they are very important. I know that I will have a [much] better chance of getting a match at LECOM, but I also don't know that I will want those specialties after completing my rotations and there are people from AUC making those matches.

I really appreciate any input, but please keep it constructive. I've read "diploma mill" more times than I can count and "3rd world country." I'm not talking about all Caribbean schools and all DO schools, only AUC and only LECOM.

Thanks

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[hoose]

It appears to me that you are in the exact same scenario that I was in last summer. So I'll tell you why I am in the post bacc program now and not at AUC currently.

I graduated from Ohio State with a 2.9 sc. gpa, 3.2 overall, and a 30R MCAT score. I had a fair amount of research activity as well as clinical experiences. However, the only DO school that interviewed me was LECOM. They placed me on the waitlist but I didn't get in at the time. I had also applied to the four caribbean schools and ultimately decided to accept to AUC based on reputation, residency matches, and cost (St. George's is insanely expensive). I submitted everything and was ready to go last September but after not getting off the waitlist, LECOM suggested their post-bacc program to me.

So I based my decision mainly upon the help of people I knew on medical school admissions committees and people at AUC who would give me an accurate account of the differences between going DO vs the Caribbean. First and foremost, every person, including those students I knew with connections to AUC told me to attempt to complete this program as it would significantly boost my chances of getting into a competitive residency as an American graduate. It became pretty apparent that through AUC I could become a doctor, but the path would be tedious and would more than likely funnel me towards an internal medicine residency.

Now you've probably looked at the residency match lists for AUC. There are cases where you see students obtaining competitive residencies. However, keep in mind that these are a compilation of three semesters worth of matches (Graduates from Spring, Summer, Fall) making it a very large pool of residency applicants. Therefore, the percentages obtaining great residencies is very small. One of the students there advised me that there are many instances where your clinical rotation sites are lost resulting in you not being able to graduate in 4 years. This means you may have an extra year in which you have to wait (with your debt accumulating). Therefore, there are also many of these students trying to get matched during the next cycle and they may have more experience than you during their extra year. Finally, keep in mind that the statistics presented by AUC are skewed. Yes, they have a good USMLE pass rate, but those are for the students that were allowed to actually take the exam. This also doesnt include the 30-40% of students who failed out of the school. To obtain a very competitive residency you will need to graduate at the top of your class with extremely high board scores.

The other thing to keep in mind there is that many of the students who do extremely well are Canadian students who are US caliber medical students when they go there. Unfortunately for them, gaining admission to a Canadian medical school is next to impossible, and they have no choice but to turn to the Caribbean where they often succeed much more than their American counterparts. If you want proof, just look at many of their success stories and see where those students come from.

AUC is a great option, if you have no other choice and are getting older and want to get your career started. However, look at the type of student you are before you make the commitment. I can tell you right now that I would not have done well at AUC during my first year because I hadn't developed the study skills necessary to succeed there. If I'd had a subpar first year I could probably say goodbye to any chance of a competitive residency. Please don't take this as condescending (through my experience), but if you are not currently able to gain admission to even a DO medical school at this point, then your chances of adjusting to a medical school curriculum RIGHT AWAY, being at the top of your class, and gaining board scores that are in the top 10% of all residency applicants are probably very low. Gaining a residency match other than internal medicine will not be impossible, but highly improbable.

Now, the other option is for you to come to the LECOM post bacc program. I can tell you right now, that getting a 3.0 is not easy at all. We are basically doing about 75% of the same material covered in the medical school (same profs, same exam questions...). Out of the 62ish students that entered the program, maybe 25 will finish with the 3.0 necessary to obtain admission to the LECOM program.

Don't be discouraged by what I just said about the post-bacc program. If you work hard, you'll get in and then you'll blaze through your first year with a gpa that will be very very competitive. If you somehow do not do as well as expected, then you will be much better prepared for medical school if you do have to go to the caribbean. The program will challenge you but prepare you extremely well for any medical school.

So what I did was defer at AUC (They will charge you a 500 dollar deferral fee) to the class starting in may. I also paid the enrollment deposit of 1500 dollars. It's alot of money, but a safeguard for your future. At this point (3 weeks of class left), I will have the grades necessary to obtain admission here. However, if there is a case where I somehow don't get admission, I'll probably start at AUC with a much higher confidence in my abilities to succeed there. If anything, this program has helped me develop much better study skills and challenged me enough that the transition into medical school won't be difficult.

Therefore, if you do need to fall back upon your backup plan, you can be sure you'll be way ahead of your fellow classmates and have a much higher ability to succeed and compete for AUC's few competitive residency matches.

Hope that helped and good luck!

 

[Ace23]

Wow. Thanks, that really did help a lot. This is the type of thing I've been hoping someone would be able to say. What I'm concerned most about is the environment because that is what's crucial for my ability to study. I didn't really decide I wanted to go to Medical School until my Jr year, and since then I've realized that the best way for me to study is to be in my school library, away from distractions. I'm worried that the dress code will defer me from studying in the library on campus, and I can't study in my apartment. I'm also worried I'll be too close to home and be tempted to go home rather than study, or go back to my old university to see friends. I'm also a person who hates taking classes at night because that's the time of day I prefer to study. If I have classes after 4PM I tend to just sleep until 1 and then do nothing until 3, and I'm really worried I won't be able to shake that habit. However, if I have class at 8 AM I have no problem making it there and spending the rest of my day doing class work in the library.

I'm also worried that I'm going to slack off Med I because most of the classes are the same (with slightly less content). I retook a Chemistry course during undergrad and tended to slack off because I told myself I already knew stuff, which I felt I already knew, but then when I took an exam I would do poorly because it wasn't fresh in my brain for quick recall.

One day I'm 75% LECOM/25% AUC and the next i'm 75% AUC/25% LECOM. I guess I just need to keep doing research and weighing the costs and benefits. Thanks again though, you really gave me a lot to think about

 

[docdonny]

Dude you should do what the poster said and go to LECOM and pay the deposit at AUC. Now what Im about to say may make me sould like a dick but thats not my intention at all, my intention is to help. Ok, you gotta man up. You just listed a bunch of complaints that you have to grow a pair and get over. If you do the LECOM program force yourself to get up in the morning and study. MAN UP AND DO IT. If you want to get into medical school and be sucessful these are things you will have to do. If that means wearing a tie in the library then thats what you do, so be it. Dont complain about classes after 4 PM just say "ok classes are after 4 so every morning I will get up at __AM and begin studying by __AM". This is what people who are sucessful in both school and life do, they man up and do what has to be done to get to where they need to get. Doing the post bacc (which I will be doing) is a do or die situation. It can get you into medical school or seal your coffin. I dont mean to sound rude or mean or anything but for you to say I dont know if you "can kick that habit" of hanging out with your friends instead of focusing sounds rediculous when your ENTIRE carreer is riding on your success. Tell your old friends who live nearby that you have to grind it out for a year and thats just what you gotta do. Regardless of where you go to school (USMD, LECOM or AUC) your going to have this mentality (and for 4 years) if you want to be a surgeon or any type of doctor for that matter

 

[docdonny]

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[Ace23]

There's a difference between manning up and taking a risk with a method of studying that has proven to be successful for you. If a student said they can only study when they listen to classical music you wouldn't tell them to man up and learn to study in silence. The point I was attempting to make is that AUC has classes in the morning only; you finish in the early afternoon and the rest of the day is for studying. Classes for the post bac are at night, and I've had more difficulty with night classes in the past (I've had quite a few classes go from 5-9PM and exams at those times for 3 years) than day classes. Can I learn to study in the morning and be successful at it,probably, but i'm risking that on the additional risk of attending a post bac, not medical school. He said less than 50% will get into the medical school...those are worse odds than AUC's residency placement.

 

[docdonny]

I understand what your saying (and again im not trying to come across as a dick) but you sound like your leaning towards AUC based on fact that your post bacc (that your would be in for only 1 year) has night classes. Going to AUC is a decision that affects the rest of your life (read what the previous poster said about chances of matching into surgery or gas) and he or she is correct in saying the chances are HEAVILY stacked against you. Going DO will give you a greater chance since you can do apply to DO residencies in these specialities as well. To make this decision based on LECOMS post bacc night classes is absurd bc its one only year not 4. This one year of getting through it opens the door to several DO schools. About the attrition rate at LECOM post bacc, it seems preety similar to AUC med school attrition rate from starting to obtaining residency (AUC people im not trying to flame you but if you look at the amount of students starting all 3 semesters and then look at the number of students who matched you can get an idea about the real attrition rate at AUC..please im not looking for this thread to become a DO vs caribb argument) So you cant really say well Ill go to AUC bc the LECOM attrition rate is not good. Its a tough choice and best of luck to you!

Also the classical music thing doesnt hold up bc listening to music is something he can contol himself its not already decided. the better analogy would be a kid saying he nees classical music to study but he left his ipod at home and therefore he cant study today. Man up and go study...

 

[hoose]

After reading the reply you posted to my response, it's increasingly apparent that you have a delusional idea of what it takes to make it in medicine. If you cannot change your study/life habits for anything, then you will not succeed as a doctor. What makes you think you will be able to go to AUC and avoid distractions (You think you'll avoid all the kids that party too much and fail out), find your perfect library, and get great grades? Even if you want to match into internal medicine right away, you'll need to be in the top half of your class. Otherwise you'll probably have to go through several match cycles with the attitude you're displaying towards studying. AUC is not a cakewalk at all. I can guarantee you it is just as difficult as any first year medical program in the country.

A doctors life requires a supreme professional attitude. If you get a call at 6 am, 7pm, or any other time of the day, you have to act like you would any other time of day, while displaying your full medical competence. At the same time, you have to be dressed professionally at all times. You may not get the ability to eat or drink or use your cellphone when you're working those long shifts.You're also worried about respect here? Yes it sucks, but do you think your patients are going to show you the respect you need all the time? Even more, If you're a caribbean doctor, you'll be looked down upon for the rest of your academic career.



Will you be able to adjust to these things?

The post-bacc program and the LECOM education in general does everything they can turn mediocre medical students into excellent residents. They strongly believe in their stringent guidelines and the results have shown that their students do much better in rotations and boards than other schools.

Yes, we all hated the rules, but the majority of us are in agreement that this was the bootcamp year that we needed. Many of the students here partied too much and had terrible study habits when they got here. The ones who have embraced the system have developed into great students and are the ones who are going to make it to the medical school.

The best advice I can give you is to take a serious hard look at yourself without lying to yourself. Before you make a decision about WHERE you want to go to med school, think about WHY you want to go and HOW you will be able to succeed.

 

[Ace23]

Wow, apparently I was completely misunderstood. I said earlier that I have no problem attending classes early in the day, just the same as late in the day, but that I have found my grades have demonstrated that I am able to study best in the afternoon/evening hours rather than cramming at 3 AM which I'm sure many people try to do far too frequently. Am I capable of cramming and staying up at unhealthy hours, yes, I've done it many times. The fact that I want to set a healthy study schedule that doesn't last until 3AM every night doesn't mean I'm going to be a poor doctor. I think you get the feeling I'm a spoiled rotten brat, but I'm grateful that I have a choice and want to make sure I make the correct one. The fact that YOU told me 25/62 people made it into the DO program should be an alarming number for people. However, perhaps there are more details into this statistic than you told me. Perhaps 20 of the people thought it would be a joke and didn't study and 5 people had to drop out for personal reasons. You never said any of that, which can only lead me to believe that of 62 people who seriously wanted a DO spot in LECOM only 25 were able to meet the requirements.

As for respect, I asked you whether first years looked down on post bacc students. There's no reason why you should be treated like a second class student because you aren't a med 1 or 2. We've all graduated from an accredited college, but your stats got you straight into the program. I don't want someone harassing me for being in the library that I'm not a med 1/2. I never said I want someone bowing down to me for being a post bacc student, but I don't expect them to think I should bow to them either.

As for asking you whether they were strict in the library on food and drink, thats a legitimate question. I didn't ask if I could stand in the middle of the library talking on my cell phone or checking twitter. I wanted to know whether information I heard concerning drink regulations was true or an exaggeration.

I don't understand how my request for more information and the personal opinion of others concerning two schools turned into a personal attack on me and whether I am a competent person, let alone could be a competent doctor.

 

[andrewmalanga]

Sorry to butt in, but Ace, I think the guys above are Just giving it to ya raw and saying things many need to hear. It doesn't look like a personal attack, but rather a healthy dose of constructive criticism.
Btw LECOM post bacc >> AUC

 

[MsVera2010]

Hoose! I have to say thank you very much for being so honest and giving a few clear details on the LECOM program and your opinion on AUC/SGA. It's a tough decision to decide what route to take when your grades are low but you still have a burning desire to become a physician.

I have a few questions of my own. For whomever sees this feel free to answer what you can.

1. Could you go into details about how you study and just how hard it is at LECOM?

2. Also, students supply all types of statistics on the success of the program, but I haven't seen anything concrete. I have seen that LECOM's success is between 75-90%. Is this accurate?

3. I know a lot of students drop out of any program because of extenuating circumstances... but how many actually drop out because they just couldn't perform on exams?

4. Could a set of really good grades also help someone get into an MD school? (I'd like to go to the school in my hometown).

 

[jslo85]

1. Could you go into details about how you study and just how hard it is at LECOM?

It's all relative and subjective. How long you will "need" to study depends purely on how well you absorb and process information. Rough generalizations would be those students with a lower MCAT will require more time to read and study than their classmates with higher MCATs. I averaged 4-5 hours a day with a few breaks in between, during first semester and probably 3-4 hours second semester. The material is roughly equal to that of MS1 core which is why MS1s who fail their core courses first semester are placed into the post-bacc program for remediation. Certain courses like physiology will include more than core with clinical aspects from their systems curriculum whereas for example, anatomy will be less than MS1 core by not covering extremities or the head but everything else . Does this make sense? It's not impossible in my opinion to achieve a 3.0 whatsoever but like medical school, it requires alot of time, repetition, and patience.

2. Also, students supply all types of statistics on the success of the program, but I haven't seen anything concrete. I have seen that LECOM's success is between 75-90%. Is this accurate?

Depends on what type of stats you're using. You're right that it's all subjective and I'd say your range is roughly accurate (the 75%) based on those that recieved a certification (lasted the entire program and did not fail a single course). It differs per year as last year probably performed better than our class this year in acceptances back into LECOM.

3. I know a lot of students drop out of any program because of extenuating circumstances... but how many actually drop out because they just couldn't perform on exams?

Um. To be honest, I can think of only one person who actually did drop out because they "couldn't perform on exams". Keep in mind that I'm using poor academic performance as the only criteria here. Could it have influenced a few other people's decision who did decide to drop out as well? Maybe?

4. Could a set of really good grades also help someone get into an MD school? (I'd like to go to the school in my hometown).

You're dealing with hypotheticals that no one can exactly give you a definite answer on. Based on my experience in this forum and speaking with others, you are definitely better off attending an allopathic SMP rather than an osteopathic program if you want to get back into an allopathic school. I'd be willing to put my money on that almost 100% of the time. Is it not possible to attend a DO program and enter an MD institution? Absolutely not, but I strongly believe that you will stand a far better chance applying into an MD school from an allo SMP. An allopathic SMP may also put you in a positive light if you wish to apply for DO schools as well, but keep in mind that not all SMPs allow for same year applications as LECOM's post-bacc does (many require or push for you to have a glide year). Also, though a few of the allopathic SMPs (UCinn, RFU MBS, EVMS Med Masters, etc) are very high linkage, the only one that I know of that does a conditional acceptance like LECOM's is Temple U's ACMS. This program is unique in that aspect so I'd suggest that you do some careful contemplation on this before you choose to go one way or another.

Good luck

 

[MsVera2010]

Jslo- Thank you very much for your honest input. Everything you said makes sense. I know I did throw out a lot of hypotheticals, but your responses were great. I don't really have a personal preference toward MD or DO, I only brought it up because of my hometown. I have done a lot of research and weighed my options and I keep leaning toward LECON. Hopefully they'll receive my inquiry soon so they can send me the application