Length of MD classes= 2yrs, Length of OD classes= 3yrs????

[IcanSEEanOD]

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Why do medical students only have two years in the classroom, when optometry students have three years (except PCO)? Does this make sense to anyone?

 

[Ryan_eyeball]

Why do medical students only have two years in the classroom, when optometry students have three years (except PCO)? Does this make sense to anyone?

I agree with this statement.

Another year of rotations would be more valuable to a future doctor. Learning how to build a business, or insurance billing.

The most core classes I actually use in practice are: Ocular disease 1 and 2. Pharmacology 1 and 2, Ocular pharmacology, Systemic disease, Gross Anatomy, Neurology, Visual anomalies, Vision Therapy, Binocular Vision, Clinical optometry 1,2,3 (exam procedures), Contact Lenses.

Other classes have a filler role, but could have been condensed down.

 

[eyelady]

Nope, it doesn't make sense to me at all. I'm all about the 2+2 rather than 3+1. No better way to learn than by experience, so yes yes yes to more rotation time!

 

[IndianaOD]

Nope, it doesn't make sense to me at all. I'm all about the 2+2 rather than 3+1. No better way to learn than by experience, so yes yes yes to more rotation time!

I rather see an extra mandatory 1 year residency. The more school, hopefully the less commercial sell outs we'll have.

 

[WoodyJI]

I rather see an extra mandatory 1 year residency. The more school, hopefully the less commercial sell outs we'll have.

So the plan is more student debt as an incentive away from corporate employment?

 

[Ryan_eyeball]

I agree with this statement.

Another year of rotations would be more valuable to a future doctor. Learning how to build a business, or insurance billing.

The most core classes I actually use in practice are: Ocular disease 1 and 2. Pharmacology 1 and 2, Ocular pharmacology, Systemic disease, Gross Anatomy, Neurology, Visual anomalies, Vision Therapy, Binocular Vision, Clinical optometry 1,2,3 (exam procedures), Contact Lenses.

Other classes have a filler role, but could have been condensed down.

I forgot to add Ocular A and P. Definitely agree another year of internships would have been nice. Should a residency be necessary? That's another debate and time to discuss.

 

[IndianaOD]

So the plan is more student debt as an incentive away from corporate employment?

You can defer loans and you should be able to break even with a $30k stipend.

 

[zeloc]

Why do medical students only have two years in the classroom, when optometry students have three years (except PCO)? Does this make sense to anyone?

Medical school is 4 years after college PLUS an additional required residency of varying numbers of years for anyone who wants to practice. The time commitment per year for medical school and residency is extraordinary as well.

 

[MR1]

From an MD point of view, I couldn't agree more with you guys. We look at our 2 years of classroom and think "why can't they condense that down to 1 year" and actually some schools have, Duke is one that comes to mind. There is no substitute for "on the job learning" that you get clinically

 

[Oculomotor]

I agree 100% with Indiana OD. An extra year of residency should be mandatory but the problem is there is just not enough residencies in place to meet the demand of the 1200 or so graduates nationwide every year.

As to the people whining about doing an extra year that you will be making $35k and in their minds "loosing" a year of making $150,000 GET REAL! Those folks will probably make $80K for that first year out of school working at EYE MART or Walmart. Like Indiana OD said an extra year requirement of a residency would perhaps disuade some of the, "I wouldn't improve my clincal skills by seeing another 2000 or so patients under the auspice of attendings for a year!----Hell no---I would rather start working at Lenscrafters to pay back my $200K of debt."----Like Med students or Podiatry students for that matter don't have to pay back similar debt but are required to do a residency.......GEEEZ

We need to trim some of the "academic fat" from the first two years ( I just went through it) and I felt that 30% of it was--->😱WTF? "Why am I learning about Fraunhofer absorption spectrum lines in the solar corona? or memorizing a bunch of useless optics equations when L'= L+F is the only one that matters? 😉 Why am I taking a psychophysics class about sine wave gratings or a class about community optometry? These classes should be electives! Classes like:

Pharmacology
Ophthalmic Optics
Ocular Disease
Ocular Pharmacology
General Physiology
General Pathology
Gross Anatomy
Ocular Motility
(the first) Geometric Optics

are examples of important "core" classes and they could scale down the 3 years of academic brain beating to 2 with the last two being striclty clinical like medicine or podiatry. The 3rd year is about 50/50 classroom to clincal---> that is not enough clinical time.
A major update of optometric education is needed and making the last two years 100% clinical would make SOOOOOOO MUCH sense! But "they", optometric educators at the highest level, will probably cling to the 1 - 1.5 years of strictly clinical time. 😎

For the folks that like it "the way it is" have fun competing with the other 1500 graduates (thanks to the new schools) in a saturated market, for a job at Walmart, under the Obamacare system in the future! LOL

 

[KHE]

We need to trim some of the "academic fat" from the first two years ( I just went through it) and I felt that 30% of it was--->😱WTF? "Why am I learning about Fraunhofer absorption spectrum lines in the solar corona? or memorizing a bunch of useless optics equations when L'= L+F is the only one that matters? 😉 Why am I taking a psychophysics class about sine wave gratings or a class about community optometry? These classes should be electives!

I couldn't disagree more. That's a petulant statement typical of a first or second year student but the reality of the situation is that eye is a complex optical system which is many times made more complex by things put in front of them like lenses, polarization coatings, tints, anti reflective coatings, contact lenses etc. etc.

In my practice, do I spend time calculating Brewster's angle, or the resultant magnification of 3 obliquely crossed cylinders, or the refractive power of a car windshield under water?

No...of course not. But the concepts that underly those things are incredibly relevant in clinical settings.

As far as psychophysics go, do you think that the Stiles Crawford effect is not relevant in visual field testing? Do you think that the Pulfrich Phenomenon isn't relevant in seniors with cataracts?

Have I had a patient come and I say to me "Doc....you know....when I look at a swinging pendulum, it seems to be going around and around in a circle instead of back and forth. What is that?"

No....of course not. But patients will come in and complain about visual perception problems beyond "street signs are blurry" and having an understanding of psychophysics and vision perception is going to be extremely relevant.

Are there things that over emphasized based on the biases of faculty? Certainly...but that's true of any educational program whether it's medicine, sciences, or the arts.

 

[xmattODx]

Why am I taking a ... class about community optometry? These classes should be electives!

:cry:

 

[lilmisseyeballs]

How beneficial are the optics courses?

 

[qwopty99]

My take on Oculo and KHE is that they are both right, in a sense.

There are ODs out there I'm sure who do nothing cognitive other than knowing which dials to spin, whereas others will order testing and actually make compelling diagnoses. Not all ODs are equal.

 

[Oculomotor]

KHE,

My point is that we should have 2 years of 100% clinical training (not just in our last year)-----> All the recent grads I talked to said they felt that they could have used more clinical training. Ironically these are the same folks that overwhelmingly don't wish to pursue a 1 year residency! 😉 The point is 2 years of "100% clinical optometry" within the four years makes more sense than 1 yr + 3 yrs of classroom (with the 3rd year having some clinical time). Even now the 4 year program is at its max for material ----> 10 classes per semester, 25 semester hours, and learning clinical stuff when there is time.....It becomes a memorize and forget game and that is not productive. They should:

Streamline the first two years
---make classes like health care delivery, community optometry, public health, and contemporary issues in optometry all electives, shrink two years of optics (Geometric I, Geometric II, Ophthalmic Optics I, Ophthalmic Optics II) into a 1 year sequence of clinically relevant optics), Physical optics in no longer on the boards at all---> drop it from the curriculum.

Start seeing patients FULL time in the beginning of the 3rd year --we should see at least 3000+ patients before we graduate not just 1200-2000. We are spending around $200K by the end of the 4rth year for the OD program we should have the most CLINICAL training possible for all that coin. Jesus!

Make a 1 year residency MANDATORY----> this wont happen because there is just not enough residencies to support it🙁

We now have board certification (screaming and kicking) and the profession is changing because it needs to.

 

[qwopty99]

Make a 1 year residency MANDATORY----> this wont happen because there is just not enough residencies to support it🙁

I'm not an expert on "residencies", but given that they all come with paid stipends, I think there simply isn't the money to pay all OD graduates a year to do a residency. Each school would have to come up with ~$30 000 to pay students to do a residency. Where will that money come from?

I'm sure there won't be much support in asking students to pay for a 5th year of optometry school.

 

[KHE]

KHE,

My point is that we should have 2 years of 100% clinical training (not just in our last year)-----> All the recent grads I talked to said they felt that they could have used more clinical training. Ironically these are the same folks that overwhelmingly don't wish to pursue a 1 year residency! 😉 The point is 2 years of "100% clinical optometry" within the four years makes more sense than 1 yr + 3 yrs of classroom (with the 3rd year having some clinical time). Even now the 4 year program is at its max for material ----> 10 classes per semester, 25 semester hours, and learning clinical stuff when there is time.....It becomes a memorize and forget game and that is not productive. They should:

Streamline the first two years
---make classes like health care delivery, community optometry, public health, and contemporary issues in optometry all electives, shrink two years of optics (Geometric I, Geometric II, Ophthalmic Optics I, Ophthalmic Optics II) into a 1 year sequence of clinically relevant optics), Physical optics in no longer on the boards at all---> drop it from the curriculum.

Start seeing patients FULL time in the beginning of the 3rd year --we should see at least 3000+ patients before we graduate not just 1200-2000. We are spending around $200K by the end of the 4rth year for the OD program we should have the most CLINICAL training possible for all that coin. Jesus!

Make a 1 year residency MANDATORY----> this wont happen because there is just not enough residencies to support it🙁

We now have board certification (screaming and kicking) and the profession is changing because it needs to.

I can't really get behind these suggestions.

I can not speak for the course content at your school but I'm not sure why you wouldn't want courses like "health care delivery" and "contemporary issues in optometry." Do you think that students don't need to know about contemporary issues in optometry or health care delivery?

I was unaware that physical optics is no longer on the boards. If that's true, then that is a god damned travesty. Even if it is true, it should still be taught. There is no possible way that an optometrist should not have a solid understanding of things like polarization and anti reflective coatings. You can't just teach "clinically relevant" optics because in order to understand and manage clinical situations, you have to have a strong background in the basic science behind the concepts.

As far as more clinic time, in theory that's a good idea but where are you getting your 3000+ patient encounters as ideal from? The issue shouldn't be how "many patients" students see, but do they see enough of each type of patient to be competent in dealing with those patients.

For example, how many refractions, gonioscopies, glaucoma patients, visual fields, HRTs, etc. etc. does a student need to do/analyze/see before they are considered proficient? If the answer is 3000, the obviously something needs to be done. If the answer is 1200, then things are fine. Surely there are studies done on this. What do they say?



Entering the clinic early is pointless if students don't have a solid enough didactic foundation to at least get something out of their clinical experience.

 

[xmattODx]

make classes like health care delivery, community optometry, public health, and contemporary issues in optometry all electives

Why in the world to you keep insisting that community optometry and public health become electives? Have you taken them yet? I would hope that you could see their usefulness but then again, you'd also get rid of optics so...

 

[Meibomian SxN]

I can't really get behind these suggestions.

I can not speak for the course content at your school but I'm not sure why you wouldn't want courses like "health care delivery" and "contemporary issues in optometry." Do you think that students don't need to know about contemporary issues in optometry or health care delivery?

I was unaware that physical optics is no longer on the boards. If that's true, then that is a god damned travesty. Even if it is true, it should still be taught. There is no possible way that an optometrist should not have a solid understanding of things like polarization and anti reflective coatings. You can't just teach "clinically relevant" optics because in order to understand and manage clinical situations, you have to have a strong background in the basic science behind the concepts.

As far as more clinic time, in theory that's a good idea but where are you getting your 3000+ patient encounters as ideal from? The issue shouldn't be how "many patients" students see, but do they see enough of each type of patient to be competent in dealing with those patients.

For example, how many refractions, gonioscopies, glaucoma patients, visual fields, HRTs, etc. etc. does a student need to do/analyze/see before they are considered proficient? If the answer is 3000, the obviously something needs to be done. If the answer is 1200, then things are fine. Surely there are studies done on this. What do they say?

Entering the clinic early is pointless if students don't have a solid enough didactic foundation to at least get something out of their clinical experience.

I wonder how much optics oMDs have to suffer through? Do any of them even know what U+D=V means? They learn a very condensed form of optics and it seems to be just fine. The rest they self-study/read.

Many of our optics courses are basically "weed-out" courses and are just too long in course. Unless someone is interested in getting a Ph.D in Optics, then many of those courses can be summarized, and more cliical time can be given.

Also, KHE hit the nail on the head with "they see enough of each type of patient to be competent in dealing with those patients." With oMDs, proper gonioscopy is just one of the many techniques for them to master; [www.gonioscopy.org] as well as BIO. Residency definitely helps hone those sklls and many more; although if one chooses excellent and challenging internships, then the same can be achieved.

 

[MR1]

Brewsters angle, stiles crawford. I have no idea what these are nor do I even want to look them up right now. Ophtho residents get optics but obviously not to the level you guys do. I know what U+D=V is of course, can do thin lens equations, mirrors, etc. Most of our stuff is calculations, only a few concept things. We have a study course the basic and clinical science course that the AAO puts out, 13 books that cover every subject. One is devoted to just optics. It also depends on what program you go to, some just self-study, mine puts alot into didactics, we get about 3-5 hrs per week. Anyway we do get some optics but we all hate it.

My honest question though to you is how much is there to polarization and anti-reflective coating, I may be over simplifying these things but they don't seem complex to me.

 

[KHE]

Brewsters angle, stiles crawford. I have no idea what these are nor do I even want to look them up right now.

lol. Don't bother.

Ophtho residents get optics but obviously not to the level you guys do. I know what U+D=V is of course, can do thin lens equations, mirrors, etc. Most of our stuff is calculations, only a few concept things. We have a study course the basic and clinical science course that the AAO puts out, 13 books that cover every subject. One is devoted to just optics. It also depends on what program you go to, some just self-study, mine puts alot into didactics, we get about 3-5 hrs per week. Anyway we do get some optics but we all hate it.

But that's ok because as an ophthalmologist, that's not really your bias, or your perspective. For optometrists it is/should be. In much the same way that it's not particular relevant than an OD know the ins and outs of strabismus surgical techniques, it's not particularly relevant for an opthalmologist to know the ins and outs of spectacle lens treatments.

My honest question though to you is how much is there to polarization and anti-reflective coating, I may be over simplifying these things but they don't seem complex to me.

As with any topic, you can take it to the nth degree that's not relevant outside of a laboratory but as optometrists, patients are going to be coming to you asking about these things and asking for your recommendations. As such, it would seem prudent that optometrists have at least a working knowledge of not just that these things are out there and that they "work" for certain patients in certain situations but HOW they work and WHY they work.

 

[RTM]

I rather see an extra mandatory 1 year residency. The more school, hopefully the less commercial sell outs we'll have.

Yep. couldn't agree more.

 

[RTM]

I agree 100% with Indiana OD. An extra year of residency should be mandatory but the problem is there is just not enough residencies in place to meet the demand of the 1200 or so graduates nationwide every year.

Things and attitudes surrounding optometry need to change. Only the educational institutions and OD's can push for change. There should be enough residencies. Currently there isn't, but there should be. Moving optometry in the direction of hospital based or community-based clinic care is one way to open up more residency options for graduating docs.

 

[RTM]

I'm not an expert on "residencies", but given that they all come with paid stipends, I think there simply isn't the money to pay all OD graduates a year to do a residency. Each school would have to come up with ~$30 000 to pay students to do a residency. Where will that money come from?

I'm sure there won't be much support in asking students to pay for a 5th year of optometry school.

Schools certainly do NOT have to pay these salaries. The schools are responsible for the administrative part and the clinic or hospital is responsible for the pay. They reap the benefits of the billing and they pay the salary.

 

[RTM]

I believe that the OD curriculum is ok. There is a lot of stuff that not everyone uses, but everthing we learn is useful to some providers somewhere.
Manditory residency. Manditory residency. Manditory residency.
I can't say it enough. Menotred education is lacking in optometry. It is a glaring deficiency in our profession.