length of residencies

Discussion in 'Clinicians [ RN / NP / PA ]' started by different strokes, Mar 12, 2002.

  1. If one does a residency in podiatric orthopedics and a residency in podiatry surgery and a fellowship in foot and ankle surgery, how many years of residency is this all together?
    Is it four?

    I am just curious to know.
     
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  3. ussdfiant

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    Is there a fellowship for foot and ankle? I thought that was for orthopods?
     
  4. drmoon

    drmoon Senior Member

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    It may be a little different since I did my residency, but a podiatric ortho residency (POR) is one year and a surgical is either one or two years. After that, I'm not sure there is anything called a "foot and ankle fellowship", but if there is I'm sure it is one year.

    Ask around because it's generally a waste of time to spend that many years in a podiatry residency. More than two years is almost always excessive because, in reality, you aren't going to be doing a lot of rearfoot surgery.
     
  5. cg2a93

    cg2a93 Senior Member

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    Dr Moon, some foot and ankle fellowships allow both ortho and pods to do the same fellowship. If you do a little investigation on your own it is easy to find them.
    Dr Moon, I have followed your posts on both forums(podiatry forum and here) and I am sorry that you have had such a horrible experience with podiatry and I have no problem with you sharing your experiences with prospective students, but I think it is wrong for you to tell student to run from Podiatry. By your own accord you stated you did not do your homework about Podiatry and you wanted to be a MD or DO, that is not the fault of podiatry it is yours you cannot expect podiatry to be abackup for MD or DO school it is too expensive and to much sacrifice goes into it to be a backup among other things.
    As stated on this forum and others over and over again there are many podiatrist out there who love what they do and are very well off finacially.
    Students, I will be the first person to stand up and say podiatry has its problem, but I will also say it is a great profession and affords you the opportunity to help patients who have pain and deformity. For years there have been doom and gloom doctors in podiatry, but somehow podiatry still exists and is not going anywhere. If you want a real picture of podiatry DO YOUR HOMEWORK, listen to Dr Moon, but be skeptical about what he says or for that matter what I say. Realize that the internet allows anybody to claim he or she is a doctor or med student or queen of england, plain and simple some people have hidden agendas.
    My advice to "different strokes" is for you to get as much training as you can. If you can get a 4yr surgical, go for it.Podiatry has come a long way since its inception. For example there was a time when Podiatrist only cut nail and trimmed corns. Now there are some who Docs treat LLD surgically (limb length discrepancy), Ankle fx, rearfoot fx. diabetic ulcers, venous stasis ulcers and a lot more. I imagine 20 yrs from now podiatrist will be doing even more. Dr moon might say, "well, very few pods do that", my response would be " who's to say you cant be one of those few doc that do",dont ever limit yourself. Dont let some disgruntled person (possibly a podiatrist) discourage you. Dr moon or Dr wright whichever he wants to be called admits he chose Podiatry as a 2nd choice and willingly gave away 160 grand without doing research about what he was giving 160 grand for. Im sorry, but that is not the type of person I would put a lot of stock in what they have to say. I am sorry Dr Moon, I did not intend to bash you or belittle the predicament you find yourself in I wish you luck in MD or DO school.
    From the extensive posts the good doctor has put on this forum and others I suspect all he is interested in is a flame war and I am not willing to feed the flame so I will not post any other response to the good doctor because his view have be throughly talk about, I encourage you all to go back in this forum and others and read his posts because he does make many valid arguements.
     
  6. efs

    efs SDN Advisor
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    My respose will come as no surprise to Dr Moon.

    cg2a93, I agree with you.

    I also read both this and the podiatry forum, and have similar conclusions.

    In addition, I would say that Dr Moon ought to do a bit more research before he decides to jump into a DO program. Some of his responses on the podiatry forum lead me to believe that he may be "buying into" the AOA stuff put out to pre-DO students as much as he once "bought into" the APMA stuff put out to pre-DPM students. I think there may have also been some replies to his messages that alluded to this, and were dismissed.

    Dr Moon, I do not want to be antagonsitic, though it may appear that way at times. Do what you feel is best for you. I whole-heartedly hope things work out well for you.

    Many many many years ago I enlisted in the Army. I felt that to be a good decision for me at the time. I looked into it carefully. I paid attention to what the recruiters told me. I then carefully analyzed their claims. I took everything I was told with a grain of salt and double checked and backed up everything I did. Everything they told me was true. Howeve, there were often hidden strings and stipulations that weren't fully disclosed. Some may have been intentional, and some inadventent. Befoer I got into it I made sure I had enough information from a varitey of sources to make me comfortable about knowing what I was getting into. These many many years later I am satisfied with my decisions.

    When I looked into podiatry (along with many alternatives) I took the same approach. Listen carefully to everything I heard and everything I was told, and then look into it more carefully. Question everything and find more than few sources of information. The "offical" party line is probably accurate, but does not tell the whole story. Dig deep enough to satisfy yourself about the real truth and you shouldn't have any qualms about it later.

    Just to add a few digs. The AOA is quick to point out that they have DOs in "every" medical specialty. What are the realities about doing an orthopaedic residency as a DO? How many of the neurosurgeons in the US are DOs? Will every DO that graduates have a starting salary over $100,000? Are DOs really accepted as equals by all MDs? Look into some of these questions and whatever else you might dig up when you do your research.
     
  7. ussdfiant

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    I just wanted to jump in about the DOs in orthopedic surgery statement made by efs. I know that there are osteopathic ortho residencies (one at UMDNJ-SOM actually) that only DOs can apply to, plus the allopathic match. I think that a DO grad with competitive stats could stay osteopathic all the way and be an orthopod. I know that (like podiatry) there aren't enough AOA residencies to go around, in which case there is always the allopathic match. As far as DO starting salaries go, will every MD grad make >$100K/yr? If you have a MD grad practicing family medicine and a DO grad in radiology, who is more likely to make that $100K? Ask a fair question, will the DO and MD both newly minted in the same specialty make the same money? Yes. Are DOs accepted as equals by ALL MDs? Now you know that's not a fair question... I know of MDs from Yale that would claim that they are of a higher caliber than other MDs. That is really subjective. I, personally, have gotten over the DO/MD thing. I am taking whatever path gets me to my goal of being a BC radiologist(for the moment). I wouldn't have even posted if your digs weren't so unfairly phrased.
     
  8. sandj9397

    sandj9397 Member

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    I do not understand the comparison eric. Orthopedic/nuero surgery are very competitive fields no matter what degree is behind your name. The real point is that a DO student has the OPPURTUNITY to apply for these residencies besides any other if he or she would like just like the counterpart MD student. They do and some match at very competitve programs throughout this country in many barnches of medicine.

    Can you say podiatry offers great post grad oppurtunites for all its student like an MD/DO degree. Podiatry cannot offer the same pay or loan repayment option. The better question to ask is: How many pods earn over 100K after residency? You are comparing two degrees which are not comparable.

    There only around 45-50,000 DOs . If there emphasis is on primary care and only a third go into specialty, how many DO orthosurgeons and nuerosurgeons would anyone expect to find?
     
  9. sandj9397

    sandj9397 Member

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    I do not understand the comparison eric. Orthopedic/nuero surgery are very competitive fields regardless of what degree is behind your name. The real point is that a DO student has the OPPURTUNITY to apply for these residencies besides any other if he or she would like just like the counterpart MD student. Sure there will be biases no matter where you went to medical school. But DOs do match at very competitve programs throughout this country in many(not all) branches of medicine.

    Can you say podiatry offers great post grad oppurtunites for all its student like an MD/DO degree? Podiatry cannot offer the same pay or loan repayment options. The better question to ask is: How many pods earn over 100K after residency? Do you honestly think every DO enters FP in rural areas for sub 100K salaries. You are comparing two degrees which are not comparable( a fully licensed medical to a restricted medical license)

    There only around 45-50,000 DOs . If there emphasis is on primary care and only a third go into specialty training, how many DO orthosurgeons and nuerosurgeons would anyone expect to find? DOs are heavily outnumbered so there prescence in any specialty will not be comparable to MDs. I

    I know DR moon can be quite gloomy, but he is a practicing DPM and his opinions should be heard. Most of his opponents are overly optimistic pod students who will not acknowledge any of his claims beacuse it is hard to think of having all these obstacles when you are studying your ass off in school.
    Sure, I am biased being an ex pod student myself. I know podiatry is an excellent profession that has seen better days which could be said for the whole of medicine. But I honestly believe that the schools are not completely honest and that podiatry is being hit harder that other medical profession because of its lack of unity, equality in graduate and postgraduate training, scope of practice and the possiblity that there are too many pods out there already. 15,000 medical subspecialists is a large number to begin with. But when they only treat 5-10 percent of the problems that they are the most highly qualified to do then there is something wrong considering they are restricted to that area.
    Podiatry can continue to improve if they reduce class sizes and possibly school number which would increase competition producing stronger students and graduates. If they could do the same with postgrad training then podiatry can offer more balanced oppurtunity to its grads by increasing their demand in the job market.
     
  10. the message

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    Guys, I don't think eric is trying to say that a DO has the same problems that podiatry has but he is trying to let Dr.Moon understand that even being a DO does not give you a complete "Get-BY-Free" pass in the medical community either. A graduating DO has all the oppurtunities that an MD has but definetly not in the same proportion outside of Family Medicine. Dr. Moon does make great points about the problems in podiatry, but seems to go a little overboard with the "respect" thing. Do you guys really think that being a DO will gain you the respect of everybody in the medical community? If you do then..... I know of MDs that don't respect other MDs b/c of their choice of specialty. The bottom line is who gives a f*%k. If I manage to make $400,000 a yr. as a podiatrist and you $300,000 a yr. as a cardiologist, do you think I give a damn about your respect? People need to wake up and stop the BS about respect. I know as a podiatrist that I will not be performing open heart surgery. If you want to talk about the schools or the f*c%ed up transition from a residency to being an associate or the pay, that's cool, but don't start with the respect from an MD, DO, Nurse, or PT. Keep that crap on thepodiatryforum.com !
     
  11. phishphan

    phishphan Junior Member

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    THE MESSAGE--

    Stop with the negativity...not everyone has had bad experiences such as yourself and you are doing nothing but shattering the hopes of future podiatrists such as myself. I have accepted a position in ohio and was wondering if you would be willing to discuss your hardships there? thanks
     
  12. efs

    efs SDN Advisor
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    It looks like my intended message did not come across as it should have. I was not trying to compare DO or MD or DPM degrees or opportunities.

    There are some posts that say the podiatry schools have not been honest with the information they provide to prospective students. I disagree with this. I do agree that it may be misleading, but it is not an outright lie. In my experience, I saw the same thing with the Army. Here their really are recruiters. Their job is to sign people up. They are also frequently accused of lying and dishonesty. This is also not true. The information they give is true, but may also be misleading as they do not tell all of the details. There are often hidden strings. I beleive that it is really up to the individual to do thier homework and find out what the real deal is. APMA may give an average salary figure, but it may be misleading. How many people ask themselves what it really means? And how many assume that this figure is what they should expect to make immediately after graduation? If a graduate is not making the quoted average figure on graduation is it becuase the schools lied? I don't think so.

    As Dr Moon has made it clear he intends to go into a DO program I wanted to point out that the same "problem" exists there as well. The AOA tells students that there are DOs in every specialty. And there are. However, there are very few and the opportunities are not the same as for their MD counterparts. I think there may only be one or two DOs in neurosurgery. (That is why I included that one.) I included Orthopaedics as well for a specific reason. Many pre-DO think there is an obvious connection there (osteopaths work with bones and joints, so do orthopaedics, so it must be a big area). This is far from the "truth". Yes, there is an orthopaedic residency for DOs only. (I don't know, is there more than just the one at UMDNJ?) And, yes, DOs may apply for the allopathic residencies as well. But realistically what are their chances of being selected? Particularly in orthopeadics. Ortho has a very strong reputation for being an "old boy's club" and are less likely to be accepting of anyone who is not one of their own (read MD, or for the various programs - from "their particular schools"). DOs may apply for the allopathic ortho residencies, but the reality is that their chances of being accpeted are very slim.

    There are many DOs and MDs who are also unhappy with where their educations have led them. I think, however, that they are less likely to blame "the system". If they do not match with their "dream", and the reality of their daily practice doesn't meet the expectations they had on entering they will have a number of reasons as to why it is their problem rather than a problem with the schooling.

    I hope this clarifies my earlier comments.
     
  13. drmoon

    drmoon Senior Member

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    What can I say?
     
  14. drmoon

    drmoon Senior Member

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    What can I say?

    As far as the "respect" thing, I already pointed out that it's mostly the way that I feel and that I don't hear it a lot outside of my own mind.

    And, quite frankly, you pre-podiatry students should count your blessings that I even feel the urge to type out these humongous posts. I've only been on these forums for two months, but I feel as though I've contributed a lot of useful information that many podiatrists only think about.

    I will state for the umpteenth time, categorically, that there are PLENTY of happy podiatrists. PLENTY! And, it's not all gloom and doom. It's a much different world now, though, and many of these pods who are happy have been out for quite some time. And most of them have had excellent training. This is not available for everyone. You need to speak to at least 10 who have graduated in the last 10 years. And, make it realistic. Talk to 2 who have had good residencies and then talk to 8 who have only done one year. That's about the right proportion.

    Every single stinking word that I've written on these forums were derived from my own personal experiences, the experiences of my friends and the information I've gathered through reading the endless postings (which are never contradicted) regarding the state of podiatry. Absolutely nobody has ever been able to counter my assertions and simply continue to spout the babble that they hear from the schools. And, please, do not read that as if I'm saying that it sucks for everyone.

    I actually did do what I thought was adequate "homework" before I started podiatry school. I only spoke with one pod, which was probably a mistake, but when I was thinking about going to podiatry school I didn't give myself a lot of time for research. Most of my knowledge was taken from books, which I know is the #1 source for most candidates. The books said everything I wanted to hear. I didn't read or hear anything bad about podiatry.

    I'll boil it down to this: I, nor anyone I went to school with, was not told that we may never get to be trained in foot surgery after we graduated. They never mentioned that there was such a variety of "residencies" that didn't include basic podiatric surgical training. MD's and DO's will ALL be trained in the same way and they will ALL get some type of residency which will train them COMPLETELY in whatever specialty they've chosen. This is not true for podiatry.

    This was a big problem with me and it's one of the main reasons that I'm reapplying to medical school.

    It's nearly impossible to make a living with the enormous loans that you are responsible for if you've only had a one year, non-surgically based residency. The schools even knew at that time that there weren't going to be enough residencies for everyone, but they continued to increase their class sizes solely based on greed. The students were up in arms for the last couple of years seeing all of these ridiculous occurences in podiatry (including the impending lack of residencies) and there were many meetings with the president, dean, etc. and they kept telling us that everything was going to be OK. Well, lots of excellent students were left with nothing or, at best, worthless residencies that didn't even offer a modest stipend.

    This is a huge problem for me.

    The school's ultimate solution for the upcoming shortage of residencies (at the last minute) was to create a slew of useless RPR's, PPMR's and POR's just to avoid masses of disaffected students. I had very respectable grades, was liked by all of my profs and colleagues, volunteered my time, etc., but was left with a PPMR on match day that gave me little real training and no surgical training. I did podiatry for 6 months and hospital rotations for 6 months. In podiatry, I basically cut nails and calluses and did an occasional ingrown or dress a venous ulcer. This is not a residency by anyone's standards. I don't even know what to call it.

    This pathetic residency experience really bothers me.

    My residency stipend was so low, that I had to wait tables on the weekends while wearing two beepers (seeing that I was the only intern on most of my rotations). A good friend of mine who did the same residency went on food stamps. FOOD STAMPS! It wasn't much fun to be waiting tables at age 38 while getting about 8 hours of sleep a week. This only happens in podiatry.

    That was a huge problem for me.

    Now that I'm in practice, I keep in touch with several of my friends from CCPM. None of them are happy and all of them have at least a PPMR and PSR under their belts.

    This scares me and bothers me.

    Two of my friends didn't even attempt to practice after our PPMR. They just threw in the towel and are doing something totally unrelated. Another guy, who was number 6 in my class, matched with a worthless PPMR, couldn't find a job after looking for one year, and finally threw in the towel and is now doing something completely unrelated.

    This scares me and bothers me.

    As far as the stuff about DO's having a similar problem with podiatry. That is utter hogwash! I have done my homework (don't you think I'd investigate it a little bit after sinking 170k into podiatry?). I am well aware that most DO's are FP's, though not all. But, I am also well aware that an FP will make, on average, over 100k after graduation. And this money will come from an honest to goodness job! I am ACUTELY aware that there are essentially NO JOBS for podiatrists when they finish their residencies. Can I repeat this? NO JOBS! Their is a subtle, yet somehow meaningful difference between the two. And, the money that the vast majority of DPM's will make in their first year is going to be slaving for another podiatrist cutting toenails in a nursing home or other crappy scutwork. This is a fact. And, you will be LUCKY to make 50k. LUCKY!! I continue to post these facts and nobody is able to refute them because they are, indeed, facts. I don't know about you guys, but I think I'd rather work for a real medical entity doing something other than cutting fungal nails AND have the extra added benefit of making enough money to avoid food stamps. Call me crazy.

    It's simple. A very small percentage of DPM's will find a job that will pay them a reasonable sum when they finish their high powered residency. The larger percentage will be scrambling around trying to find anything because their student loans are due (along with their other financial responsibilities). An MD or DO will find a job SOMEWHERE and be paid well for it. A DPM is basically on their own like a chiropractor and must start from scratch. I was under the delusional thinking that there would be some kind of job for me when I got out and I would be making the "average" that was states ($110,000 net). Definitely my mistake for not investigating this further, but I was sorely disappointed when I discovered that nobody really cared that I had a DPM degree. Well, I guess Sallie Mae cared. They sent me letters after I finished my residency.

    And, by the way, how on earth can there be 23% of the Temple student body who didn't match this year?? That's 1/4 of the entire class of 77. And, the overwhelming majority of residency slots that are available are the aforementioned RPR's, PPMR's and POR's. How can there not be enough residencies for everyone (not to mention at least two years in length which will train you in everything you invested your money to learn) when the student body has dropped so dramatically??!!

    I read an article today on-line that stated that there were more than 60 unfilled slots in GENERAL SURGERY for DO's and MD's last year!! THERE ARE TOO MANY RESIDENCIES FOR MD'S AND DO'S!!!!! And the number of matriculants isn't expected to go much higher in the near future. How could it possibly be bad idea for someone like me to re-enter medical school and actually make a living!!??

    Oh yeah, one other note. Like I said before, I know that most DO's are FP's. I can say without hesitation that I'd rather be an FP and make at least 100k and treat a wide variety of patients knowing that I earned this position by enduring an accepted model of medical training than be a DPM with one stinking year of "training" and not know exactly how I'm going to pay my next bill.

    You guys keep telling me how it's so much the same for DO's and I'd better do my homework. Well, I did do my homework. Where's your facts?

    And, just as an addendum, who could possibly think that I'm anything BUT a podiatrist!!!??? Why on earth would I spend so much time creating these posts if I weren't truly disgruntled and disillusioned?? Give me a break!
     
  15. ussdfiant

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by efs:
    <strong> Yes, there is an orthopaedic residency for DOs only. (I don't know, is there more than just the one at UMDNJ?) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I know this is not your chosen field Eric, so I thought I would inform you that there are 29 osteopathic orthopedic surgery residency programs. This is a list taken from the AOA's website:

    Botsford General Hospital - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Farmington Hills, MI

    Des Peres Hospital - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, St Louis, MO

    Garden City Hospital Osteo - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Garden City, MI

    Genesys Regional Med Ctr-Health Park - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Grand Blanc, MI

    Horizon HS/Henry Ford HS(Bi-County Hosp) - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Warren, MI

    Memorial Hospital - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, York, PA

    Millcreek Community Hospital - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Erie, PA

    Mount Clemens General Hospital - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Mount Clemens, MI

    MSUCOM/Ingham Regional Medical Center - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Lansing, MI

    MWU/CCOM/St James Hosp & Health Centers - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Olympia Fields, IL

    NSUCOM/Parkway Reg MC - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Miami, FL

    OUCOM/Cuyahoga Falls Gen Hosp - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Cuyahoga Falls, OH

    OUCOM/Doctors Hosp Stark Cnty - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Massillon, OH

    OUCOM/Doctors Hospital North - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Columbus, OH

    OUCOM/Grandview Hosp & Med Ctr - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Dayton, OH

    OUCOM/South Pointe Hosp - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Warrensville Heights, OH

    OUCOM/St Joseph HC-Eastland - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Warren, OH

    OUCOM/St Vincent Mercy MC - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Toledo, OH

    Peninsula Hospital Center - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Far Rockaway, NY

    Philadelphia College Osteopathic Med - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Philadelphia, PA

    Pinnacle Health Community General Osteopathic Hosp-Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Harrisburg, PA

    Pontiac Osteopathic Hospital - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Pontiac, MI

    St John - Oakland Hospital - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Madison Heights, MI

    St. Michael Hospital - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Oklahoma City, OK

    Tulsa Regional Medical Center - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Tulsa, OK

    UHSCOM/Medical Center of Independence - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Independence, MO

    UMDNJ/SOM/Kennedy Mem Hsp/Our Lady of Lourdes - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Stratford, NJ

    UNTHSCFW/TCOM/Osteopathic Med Ctr, Ft. Worth, TX - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Fort Worth, TX

    WesternU/COMP Arrowhead Regional Medical Center - Orthopedic Surgery Residency, Colton, CA
     
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  17. efs

    efs SDN Advisor
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    ussdfiant,

    Thanks for the info. I knew there were DO only ortho residencies, I just did not know how many. I also know that very few DOs are able to match with allopathic ortho residencies. I still think that this is a very small number of positions in relation to the number of pre-DOs that think they have a realistic chance of getting into orthopaedics.
     
  18. the message

    the message Member

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    Some of these posts are getting way too long!
     
  19. efs

    efs SDN Advisor
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    Dr Moon,

    I may be "only" a student, but I do think that I have my head screwed on right. Yes, I am positive about podiatry, but I do not think that it is only because I am a student. I realy did do my "homework" before I entered this. The first podiatrist I talked to spent the majority of his time trying to disuade me from the field. After a reasonable amount of time he came to the conclusion that I was serious about it and he clued me into the reality of podiatry. It is not all negative, but it really does need to be your primary intention or you can easily become discouraged. If you are looking at podiatry as an alternative to medicine you might have problems. I am glad that I was enlightened about the potential problems before I entered this course. I can easily see how others might enter this field without the information that they ought to have.

    In your latest post you have alluded a bit to the possiblity that you might not have been as informed before you went down this road. I am sorry that you did not have the same fore-warning that I had. It might would have saved you a lot of trouble. I also see that you are not "anti-podiatry", but now recognize that it is just not what you were expecting. I can easily accept this positon. I am just a little disheartened that you would feel you that you have a need to discourage anyone else from entering this field. While it is not for everyone, it can be a very good choice for many. (As with my experience I would enthusiastically encourage everyone who is considering ths field to investigate it carefully. It may have some negatives, but there are just as many if not more positives. To some extent it depends on your perspective.)

    I am not "anti-DO". I don't want anyone to come to that conclusion. I just use that to point out that entering the DO field can be just as problematic as entering the DPM side. I have talked to many, many, many DOs that tried to disaude me from entering any aspect of the medical field based on their experiences. It is not just the DO side of things, but includes many of the problems that are faced by the MDs as well.

    I had some concerns from some of your previous posts that you might be entering the DO side with some of the similar misconceptions that you had about the DPM field. If this were true then I could see you becoming disgruntled with that in another 3-4 years. As you say you have done your homework I am satisfied and hope that things work out as you hope they do.

    I suppose that the bottom line on this is that there are probelms with any of the medical specialties or een any of the medical fields. It really isn't what it used to be.
     
  20. efs

    efs SDN Advisor
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    Dr Moon,
    I would like to hear your input on this. There are a umber of students who did not match through the CASPR system. As I understand it there are a number of programs that hold back a position or two in order to pick up some of the students from the "scramble". I think we all realize that the match is not a perfect system. the personal qualities that any program might be looking for might not be easily identifiable. Great "academic" studnets might not match while "poor" academic students may have other qualities that are sought. I will agree that it can be very political. But I will also state that academics are not the full picture.

    What is your take on this?
     
  21. drmoon

    drmoon Senior Member

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    Thanks for the contrite response, Eric.

    I'm very glad that you can see through my ranting and raving and understand that there were just too many unforeseen "items" in podiatry that I was not aware of.

    I am a very honest person. I will readily admit that podiatry was my 3rd choice in 1993 and I was unable to get into DO or MD school. Therein lies the crux of the problem. I have states on numerous occasions that one should NOT embark on a career in podiatry if it is an alternative to allopathic or osteopathic school. Persistence usually pays off. For me, I was 32 when I applied, had been killing myself to finish the necessary pre-reqs (I was a Japanese major at UCLA and science courses were not part of the curriculum), working at night, taking all of my classes during the day, volunteering at UCLA's ER, cleaning urine from test tubes, studying for the MCAT, etc., etc..

    What I'm saying is that when it came time for the applications, I was utterly burned out. I think I may have experienced what some other hopeful doctors had in that I was ready to take whatever was given to me. Frankly, I wasn't even aware of podiatry until about a month before I applied. Again, my mistake. But, from what I read it seemed to be a viable alternative. I wasn't so naive as to not recognize that there was a significant difference in entrance requirements which did make me a little bit nervous.

    The truth is, I had worked SO LONG to prepare myself for entry into medical school I didn't think I could wait an additional year and wait tables in the meantime. I got accepted to CCPM and began my journey.

    People need podiatrists. And, if things continue the way they are, there is going to eventually be a relative shortage. Like I said before, as long as a student realizes that once you finish, you've just begun (in terms of finding work) and you may not get all of the respect a traditional physician might get, then podiatry can be a great field.

    Of course, you also have to love podiatric medicine, which a lot of students fail to understand thinking that they just want to be doctors when they apply. There are a lot of students past and present who fall into this category. Many of them get into podiatry because they want to be called "doctor" and they couldn't get into MD or DO school. After a while, they begin to realize that they are going to be a very specific doctor who will only treat a small part of the body and will have to be very comfortable with orthopedic principles. Believe me, not everyone is cut out for orthopedics. And not everyone is adept in the O.R.. If you're not good with spatial relationships ,podiatry can be tough. If you're not good with abstract thinking (like motion in space and invisible forces), podiatry can be tough.

    So, if you have a good sense for business, if you're tenacious, if you really enjoy podiatry (as opposed to the idea of being a doctor), can handle the occasional discrimination and inequity, then podiatry is a great choice.
     
  22. the message

    the message Member

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    Dr. Moon:

    Thanks for the honesty that this forum definetly needs!
     
  23. PACmatthew

    PACmatthew Senior Member

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    Eric,

    You are definitely grasping at straws my friend when you talk about the DO profession. Seems I saw you on the PA forum the other day with a post about how PA's would "never" receive advanced standing at meds schools. Now you post about how DO's have "the same" perils facing them as DPM's do. You even stated that you thought the DO Ortho residency opportunity was limited to the program at UMDNJ. You really should make at least a half-assed attempt at researching your statements before spitting them out like projectile emesis.

    If it makes you sleep better at night to think that DO's suffer the same discrimination as DPM's, then keep on thinking it. For those that might be influenced by your comments though, please allow me to clarify that you are simply smoking some virulent form of crack.

    Where do you come up with statements like "DO students go into school expecting to be Ortho surgeons"? If you are stupid enough to go into a DO program and expect to do an allopathic ortho residency, then you get what comes to you. But, the vast majority of DO students go into medicine wanting to do FP or some other primary care field.

    As a PA, I work with MD's and DO's every day as colleagues. I can tell you that the only people that think differently about DO's are the MD's that are older usually. I can tell you that there are tons of allopathic FP residencies that would have to close their doors if DO's stopped filling the slots in their programs.

    And as for Dr. Moon, I think everyone here should thank him like there is no tomorrow for telling the real truths about his experiences. He is only trying to help save someone from making the same mistake he made. Anyone who is reading into his comments to try and uncover some hidden agenda might be better served if they simply used periods at the end of each sentence!!! Grammar isn't everything I admit, but it sure doesn't sell a profession to ramble with such obvious disregard for the English language. I think I would put my money on Dr. Moon being the real Podiatrist over the second grader who is sending some of the previous posts.

    It is also never too late to change your career path as Dr. Moon and I can attest. I can tell you that a Master's degree and a 6 figure salary are not the definition of practicing medicine! Run, don't walk away from something you might think you won't want to do forever.
     
  24. sandj9397

    sandj9397 Member

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  25. sandj9397

    sandj9397 Member

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  26. efs

    efs SDN Advisor
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    Looking back it seems that The Message is the only one who understood what I was trying to put across. I'm about done trying. You keep coming back with crap that is not what I said.

    Uninformed and naive when it comes to DO? Give me a break. I have been working with DOs for over a decade. The pod school I attend is part of an osteopathic school and our first year courses are taken together. I hardly think I am uninformed or naive concerning DOs.

    I could not find anywhere that I said most Pre-DOs want to be orthopaedic surgeons. I was using orthopaedic surgery to make a point. Many DO students have some misconceptions that were perpetuated by the schools and the AOA, similar to what some accuse the APMA of. While most people know that the vast majority of DOs enter primary care, the AOA likes to make a point that there are DOs in all fields. While this is true in a strict sense it is also misleading.

    There are DOs and MDs who are unhappy with thier choices. Just becuase you do not see them venting on a student forum does not mean they are not out there. I also think these individuals are more likely to see some of what they chose to do as part of the problem rather than it being a problem with the schools, the matches or the residencies.
     
  27. the message

    the message Member

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    I don't want to offend Dr. Moon but it seems like his problems in podiatry were really b/c he did it as an alternative. Guys, leave efs alone. You know what he was trying to say but want to take it a little bit farther!
     

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