Length of training and the match

[chicandtoughness]

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Hi all! Had a mentee ask me this question and 1) I didn't quite know the answer, and 2) I was also curious.

She got into a 5-year PsyD program (does not have the grades for a PhD - likely got tossed because she doesn't meet certain cutoffs) and got pulled off the waitlist for a 6-year PsyD program (so 4 and 5 years of coursework before internship, respectively). Both programs start them out in practicum in spring of first year. For purposes of this argument, they are university based PsyD's (not FSPP's) of similar and fairly middle of the road quality (think Hartford, Denver, etc).

We are wondering how the length of pre-internship training / amount of hours accrued in practica are taken into account when reviewing internship applicants. All else equal (grades, research, LORs, etc), how would you compare an individual with 3 years of practicum experience vs. 2 vs. even 1 (there are a handful of programs out there that have scarily accelerated timelines)? Does the type of practicum matter (e.g. a lot of in-house clinic vs. external practica)? Is the difference of a year's worth significant enough that she should take the 6-year PsyD offer?

I think saying "more is always better than less" is painting with too broad of a stroke, especially given the debt load of an extra year in a PsyD program.

Thank you psychologist aunties and uncles for helping the wee midlevel out as per usual 😊

 

[The Cinnabon]

Obligatory mention of still being a PhD student and others in here will come in with better advice.

Having said that, I am on a 6 year track for my PhD and don't regret this choice. It's likely different as I have funding. Still, it's nice that I really have no worries about the amount of hours I need and have an extra year to expeience a different practice setting (on track to hopefully have state hospital, VA, and health psych-y hosptial setting outside of my in house clinic year). I'd like to think it'll set me up to be a stronger internship applicant.

On the other hand, this may mean an extra year of incurring debt for your applicant AND one less year making an income.

 

[PsyDuck90]

It’s a bit of a function of quality over quantity. I would look at what the metrics are regarding APA match rate, EPPP pass rate, and licensure rate. Most programs will also report some of the sites past trainees have matched to in recent years, so are they matching to the types of sites that this person would want to work/train in (e.g., AMCs, VA hospitals, college counseling centers, etc.). Also yes, how much is that extra year costing them? N=1 but I went to a university based PsyD with funding so it cost me $0, it was a 4+1, matched to a VA internship and postdoc and now work at an AMC. I don’t think the extra year would have done anything to make me more competitive, but I had the required number of hours and they were from AMCs/VAs, which were the types of settings I wanted to be in.

 

[chicandtoughness]

It’s a bit of a function of quality over quantity. I would look at what the metrics are regarding APA match rate, EPPP pass rate, and licensure rate. Most programs will also report some of the sites past trainees have matched to in recent years, so are they matching to the types of sites that this person would want to work/train in (e.g., AMCs, VA hospitals, college counseling centers, etc.). Also yes, how much is that extra year costing them? N=1 but I went to a university based PsyD with funding so it cost me $0, it was a 4+1, matched to a VA internship and postdoc and now work at an AMC. I don’t think the extra year would have done anything to make me more competitive, but I had the required number of hours and they were from AMCs/VAs, which were the types of settings I wanted to be in.

They're roughly equivalent in terms of match/EPPP/licensure rates. Good call on honing down specialty sites, I believe she wants to do UCC so I'll tell her to take a look. The extra year looks like ~50k (ick), though she has not heard back on assistantships and other partial funding sources.

 

[cara susanna]

I waited an extra year and am glad I did. I wouldn't have been competitive before that.

 

[cotn_psych]

Why not put another year into being more competitive for funded/partially funded programs or enter a masters program to improve grades and find a better research fit? If she can improve her grades in a masters program she may not have to shell out 50K per year for a non-funded PsyD.

 

[PsyDuck90]

They're roughly equivalent in terms of match/EPPP/licensure rates. Good call on honing down specialty sites, I believe she wants to do UCC so I'll tell her to take a look. The extra year looks like ~50k (ick), though she has not heard back on assistantships and other partial funding sources.

Honestly, $50K a year is a hard no. At that cost, it just isn’t a good return on investment. As another poster suggested, she would be better off doing a masters to become competitive for funded programs. Or, honestly, if her goal is to be a therapist at a UCC, plenty of midlevels work in those settings as well. If taking the PsyD route, she’d be working a UCC job likely making under $100K/year with $200k+ worth of student loan debt. The math isn’t mathing.

 

[Sanman]

The answer here is twofold:
1. Most competitive internships have a cutoff in terms of hours, 400 or 500 minimum face to face hours. Both programs should be meeting the higher end of this. Ask if that has ever been an issue with applicants.

2. Beyond that, what are folks doing with the extra year? If dissertation is already proposed prior to internship it is helpful. If there are a lot of specialty placements, such as neuropsych and you can focus on that for a year, that will certainly make you more specialty competitive. That said, if you are paying tuition, is the cost worth the return?

 

[PsyDr]

I would suggest that this is an empirical question, that should be approached accordingly. A brief review of APPIC stats of university based PsyD programs places the median match rates around 74-100%. There are some outliers, in match stats and overall n, which should be avoided.

Match Statistics

Association of Psychology Postdoctoral and Internship Centers, Postdoc Interns, Psychology Internships, Psych Internship Matching - APPIC

www.appic.org

 

[futureapppsy2]

Why not put another year into being more competitive for funded/partially funded programs or enter a masters program to improve grades and find a better research fit? If she can improve her grades in a masters program she may not have to shell out 50K per year for a non-funded PsyD.

Honestly, this is the answer--this field isn't worth $200k-$300k in debt.

 

[chicandtoughness]

Thanks everyone! My first thought is always the less debt the better and I have advised as such. She'll likely do whatever she wants regardless of what I say (the eternal struggle), but maybe I can plant the seed 😭

On a slightly related tangent, what if cost were no objection? Is it typical then, let's say with a fully funded program, to prefer the longer ones? I would think extra prac + more time to publish in general would be helpful for match but I know nothing :')

 

[The Cinnabon]

Honestly, this is the answer--this field isn't worth $200k-$300k in debt.

I'm at 50K, almost all from undergrad (subsidized and unsubsidized). Even at that "lower" number it's going to have a pretty measurable impact on my lifestyle post licensure.

 

[The Cinnabon]

Thanks everyone! My first thought is always the less debt the better and I have advised as such. She'll likely do whatever she wants regardless of what I say (the eternal struggle), but maybe I can plant the seed 😭

On a slightly related tangent, what if cost were no objection? Is it typical then, let's say with a fully funded program, to prefer the longer ones? I would think extra prac + more time to publish in general would be helpful for match but I know nothing :')

This just comes down to one's goals right?

If your goal is generalist private practice then I can't imagine an extra year being worth it, assuming you have quality hours. On the flip side, if you're all in on a prestigious academic neuropsych career and have an opportunity to do a prac somewhere with big names while also churning out more pubs. That seems like it could be worth the extra year, especially if you're lacking neuropsych hours for whatever reason.

 

[ClinicalABA]

50k loan at 8.05% fixed rate, paid back over 20 years = ~$420 monthly payment (meaning you'll need to make an additional ~$560 per month to cover it). You'll notice it, but probably still not a bad investment given earning potential with doctorate vs without, as doctoral level clinical jobs should easily pay 6k more per year. Double or triple that (or aim to pay off in 10 years), and the rate of return might not be worth it.

 

[jdawg2017]

They're roughly equivalent in terms of match/EPPP/licensure rates. Good call on honing down specialty sites, I believe she wants to do UCC so I'll tell her to take a look. The extra year looks like ~50k (ick), though she has not heard back on assistantships and other partial funding sources.

Is there a specific reason they want to be a psychologist if they want to work in a UCC? The Mid-level master’s route would probably almost certainly be cheaper and faster if we are already looking at unfunded PsyD programs anyways.

In terms of my two cents after being involved in internship reviews for a couple years now at my site (a fairly competitive site), my N=1 is that we would not consider anyone with <2 full years of practica. That said, 3 years (with one practicum being in-house) is probably the modal applicant. I also agree that the quality of the experience matters. Many sites list minimum intervention and assessment hours, so one can reasonably do the math backwards from there.

I’m also a neuropsychologist, so YMMV in other sub-specialties.

 

[The Cinnabon]

D

50k loan at 8.05% fixed rate, paid back over 20 years = ~$420 monthly payment (meaning you'll need to make an additional ~$560 per month to cover it). You'll notice it, but probably still not a bad investment given earning potential with doctorate vs without, as doctoral level clinical jobs should easily pay 6k more per year. Double or triple that (or aim to pay off in 10 years), and the rate of return might not be worth it.

Definitely! Since I'm a DINK I've been factoring it into future housing cost projections (reducing total amount I should spend), 0 reason for us to get an expensive or large place so it's been easy to justify.

Dramatic lifestyle creep seems like the biggest financial threat to newly licensed psychologists.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Is there a specific reason they want to be a psychologist if they want to work in a UCC? The Mid-level master’s route would probably almost certainly be cheaper and faster if we are already looking at unfunded PsyD programs anyways.

In terms of my two cents after being involved in internship reviews for a couple years now at my site (a fairly competitive site), my N=1 is that we would not consider anyone with <2 full years of practica. That said, 3 years (with one practicum being in-house) is probably the modal applicant. I also agree that the quality of the experience matters. Many sites list minimum intervention and assessment hours, so one can reasonably do the math backwards from there.

I’m also a neuropsychologist, so YMMV in other sub-specialties.

Yeah, for a UCC, the advantages of a unfunded PsyD v. a masters-level license are pretty minimal, IME.

 

[Ollie123]

Agree a master's license makes sense in this context.

I did a VERY extended grad school experience (7+1) and have no particular regrets, but I had funding the entire time. I don't recommend going at all if you are paying any more than a nominal amount (i.e., at some schools you have to pay fees or the state mandates like 5% of tuition can't be waived or whatever). I certainly would not recommend paying an extra 50k/yr just for more experience. Get out and even if you are doing some ****ty post-doc for a bit longer its better than that.

 

[R. Matey]

I would probably leave the field before working at a UCC at the master's level. You can seriously make more as a teacher. I certainly wouldn't go into debt for that outcome either.

 

[The Cinnabon]

I would probably leave the field before working at a UCC at the master's level. You can seriously make more as a teacher. I certainly wouldn't go into debt for that outcome either.

I would second the teaching route.

The hippie ass art teacher I had in high school also owned an English language school in Sapporo where he's spend his summers. His life seemed pretty amazing.