Let's talk realistically

[Muscab]

I've asked this question before to people but haven't quite gotten a straight answer. How worth it is it to get into the medical field?

My biggest concern is finances, as well as being overall happy. My undergraduate is going to cost approximately $80,000 in total for all four years. On top of that, I would have to add the cost of medical school. Using the average price of medical school, it could cost around $160,000 in total for all four years. That's $240,000 for my education. My family doesn't make that much money to be able to afford anything that expensive as it is (maybe about $60,000 a year).
Obviously, I'm considering loans and all that, but is it worth it to get that much in debt? I read somewhere that medical student graduates are on average up to $160,000-$180,000 in debt when they graduate. That's a lot of money. Then, taking loans interest would build up resulting in even more debt.

Most people say, "if you're passionate enough to become a doctor and really want to you can do it." Okay, that's cute and all but that's not reality. I'm not sure if my family and I have the money to do that. Whenever I was asked what I wanted to be ever since I was little the answer was something involving medicine. It's always been my dream and I don't want to give it up. However, I need to stay realistic. I don't want to struggle for 8+ years financially just because I'm in debt from my education. I want to be able to live a happy life. Being in constant stress because of debt is the last thing I want to do.

I really, really want to get in to medical field. I've always wanted to and it's always been one of my biggest passions. I'm not really sure if I can afford to do it. How do people normally afford to do it? I need as much help as I can get before I'm forced to give up my life long dream.

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[medic86]

Almost everyone is in huge debt at the end of medical school - that's just the nature of the beast.

If you're really concerned about it, go the PA route.

 

[Muscab]

Looking at all these articles it seems like it. Is it worth it to become in that much debt have to repay it and all the interest?
Like I said, my family and I don't have that much of a strong financial background so we'd be taking lots of loans out, which would build up a lot of interest.

 

[QuinnTheEskimo]

You can do things to minimize your debt. Obviously, state schools usually cost a lot less. Also, if possible, consider living at home while going to med school -- this will greatly decrease your COL. If your parents live near your state school, that's the ideal situation.

Another thing -- some schools offer loan forgiveness if you do residency at their hospital. I heard about this from someone on the interview trail and I was shocked that this wasn't more well-publicized.

 

[DermViser]

Looking at all these articles it seems like it. Is it worth it to become in that much debt have to repay it and all the interest?
Like I said, my family and I don't have that much of a strong financial background so we'd be taking lots of loans out, which would build up a lot of interest.

Depends which specialty you are able to garner. That will tell you whether it is worth it or not financially.

 

[Venko]

Also consider that many people work in medicine with less debt at the end of training and get to help people while still supporting their family.

CRNA
Pharmacists
Ultrasound technicians
Echocardiographers
Radiology technicians
PA
NP
Others

In some roles and some places these folks can make 60-70 dollars per hour and not have to work nights holidays or weekends. Certainly some dont make that kind of money but its an option few consider. Some pharmacists make 150k etc.

Also consider that if you go to a cheaper medical school and pick a more lucrative specialty you may reduce the cost burden up front.

 

[QuestionsAnswers]

You're accustomed to a student budget now, right? Well why not plan to live on one (or even triple that) for another few years after residency? You can pay that off in a few years while possibly having even more money than you did as a student.

 

[Goro]

Once you finish residency, you'll be making > $100K/year, so quit fussing.

I've asked this question before to people but haven't quite gotten a straight answer. How worth it is it to get into the medical field?

My biggest concern is finances, as well as being overall happy. My undergraduate is going to cost approximately $80,000 in total for all four years. On top of that, I would have to add the cost of medical school. Using the average price of medical school, it could cost around $160,000 in total for all four years. That's $240,000 for my education. My family doesn't make that much money to be able to afford anything that expensive as it is (maybe about $60,000 a year).
Obviously, I'm considering loans and all that, but is it worth it to get that much in debt? I read somewhere that medical student graduates are on average up to $160,000-$180,000 in debt when they graduate. That's a lot of money. Then, taking loans interest would build up resulting in even more debt.

Most people say, "if you're passionate enough to become a doctor and really want to you can do it." Okay, that's cute and all but that's not reality. I'm not sure if my family and I have the money to do that. Whenever I was asked what I wanted to be ever since I was little the answer was something involving medicine. It's always been my dream and I don't want to give it up. However, I need to stay realistic. I don't want to struggle for 8+ years financially just because I'm in debt from my education. I want to be able to live a happy life. Being in constant stress because of debt is the last thing I want to do.

I really, really want to get in to medical field. I've always wanted to and it's always been one of my biggest passions. I'm not really sure if I can afford to do it. How do people normally afford to do it? I need as much help as I can get before I'm forced to give up my life long dream.

 

[caffeinemia]

Once you finish residency, you'll be making > $100K/year, so quit fussing.

So I think his concerns are legitimate. It wouldn't simply just dismiss them.

100k/yr... even 200k/yr and then....
20-30% for fed income tax.
5-10% for state income tax.
5-10% sales tax.
3%? Medicare?
2-5% IRA?
0-20+% malpractice insurance.
(3-4% for potentially NYC tax - this **** is ridic, btw).

Add in **** like 5-10k for residency apps/transition which are not incorporated into your financial aid. Add in Steps, licensing, CME/MOC.

Standard loan debt is currently about 200k coming out of med school. 10 year standard repayment plan is about 8-10k a month. Good luck with that ****.
Get ready to PAYE/IBR for the next 20-25 years. If PSLF goes away, that's the route many people will have to take.

You ready to hustle and hustle hard?

 

[Theafoni]

It's just a sacrifice some people are willing to make.

 

[caffeinemia]

Yeah. that's why i asked him if he's ready to hustle. But to tell him not to worry about it is irresponsible. He needs to make a realistic and informed choice. Premise of informed consent right?

 

[Goro]

The interest on your loans is deductable, for one.

So I think his concerns are legitimate. It wouldn't simply just dismiss them.

100k/yr... even 200k/yr and then....
20-30% for fed income tax.
5-10% for state income tax.
5-10% sales tax.
3%? Medicare?
2-5% IRA?
0-20+% malpractice insurance.
(3-4% for potentially NYC tax - this **** is ridic, btw).

Add in **** like 5-10k for residency apps/transition which are not incorporated into your financial aid. Add in Steps, licensing, CME/MOC.

Standard loan debt is currently about 200k coming out of med school. 10 year standard repayment plan is about 8-10k a month. Good luck with that ****.
Get ready to PAYE/IBR for the next 20-25 years. If PSLF goes away, that's the route many people will have to take.

You ready to hustle and hustle hard?

 

[caffeinemia]

The interest on your loans is deductable, for one.

And that's why someone who's making 200k could potentially be paying 20% federal income tax as I stated above. At current brackets $36,901 to $89,350 is still taxed 25% by the IRS. http://taxfoundation.org/article/2014-tax-brackets

So yeah, if you can deduct 60-80% of your income every year then sure...

Still doesn't change the fact that you told him to can it despite his legitimate financial concerns.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

The interest on your loans is deductable, for one.

I don't think this is true, Goro. 99% of physicians will be above the income limit for student loan deduction (the limit isn't that high).

 

[DermViser]

Once you finish residency, you'll be making > $100K/year, so quit fussing.

 

[caffeinemia]

Looking at all these articles it seems like it. Is it worth it to become in that much debt have to repay it and all the interest?
Like I said, my family and I don't have that much of a strong financial background so we'd be taking lots of loans out, which would build up a lot of interest.

Muscab, you need to first figure out what is "worth it." If it's a purely "debt versus income" question, then I don't think that medicine is special in any sense. I would also venture to say that it's not the most prudent step financially. You need to read up on the different federal loans and the repayment plans that are in place. Generally, many physicians spend a number of years... anywhere from 10-20 years repaying loans based on their salary.

Currently, if certain conditions are met, your loan debt would be forgiven after 10 years of consecutive payments. How nice! But even then, you would get taxed for the "income" of loan forgiveness... so if you got... say... 200k forgiven.. bam! be prepared to pay 30% of that all at once as an income tax. That is the current state.

There is current legislation that has yet to be finalized/voted upon that would dramatically change the structure of loan forgiveness and repayment. Essentially loan forgiveness would be capped at no more than about 60k and/or(?) after 25 years of payments. That's a huge huge huge difference.

 

[EngineerPreMD]

You're accustomed to a student budget now, right? Well why not plan to live on one (or even triple that) for another few years after residency? You can pay that off in a few years while possibly having even more money than you did as a student.

There was literally just an attending on another thread who said this was unrealistic. I guess it's possible in principle, but when you're ~30 you're probably going to have other expenses, and you will continue to live life. You might have a family, a mortgage, etc... You can't plan to not have that stuff because it's way too important in terms of life in general to just put that off for the sake of loans (maybe the house, but not the family).

 

[Muffinho]

You're accustomed to a student budget now, right? Well why not plan to live on one (or even triple that) for another few years after residency? You can pay that off in a few years while possibly having even more money than you did as a student.

Living on a student budget for about 13-17 years sounds a lot easier than it actually is.

 

[caffeinemia]

There was literally just an attending on another thread who said this was unrealistic. I guess it's possible in principle, but when you're ~30 you're probably going to have other expenses, and you will continue to live life. You might have a family, a mortgage, etc... You can't plan to not have that stuff because it's way too important in terms of life in general to just put that off for the sake of loans (maybe the house, but not the family).

Not to mention the 18 year malpractice rider that you'll be buying cuz you decided you wanted to deliver babies for a living.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

Essentially Muscab - you need to first figure out what is "worth it." If it's a purely "debt versus income" question, then I don't think that medicine is special in any sense. I would also venture to say that it's not the most prudent step financially. You need to read up on the different federal loans and the repayment plans that are in place. Generally, many physicians spend a number of years... anywhere from 10-20 years repaying loans based on their salary.

Currently, if certain conditions are met, your loan debt would be forgiven after 10 years of consecutive payments. How nice! But even then, you would get taxed for the "income" of loan forgiveness... so if you got... say... 200k forgiven.. bam! be prepared to pay 30% of that all at once as an income tax. That is the current state.

There is current legislation that has yet to be finalized/voted upon that would dramatically change the structure of loan forgiveness and repayment. Essentially loan forgiveness would be capped at no more than about 60k and/or(?) after 25 years of payments. That's a huge huge huge difference.

PSLF (the 10 year plan) is not taxable in it's current form. You must work at a qualifying job for 10 years, which may or may not be an easy task. The forgiveness program that has the tax bomb is the IBR/PAYE program, which is 20 years currently.

 

[MerickManual]

Once you finish residency, you'll be making > $100K/year, so quit fussing.

Agreed. People tend to forget the money and stability they get from medicine and focus on the first few years straight out of residency.

 

[caffeinemia]

I stand corrected. Once they take away PSLF. Then we'll get our asses taxed bombed. And that's going to be 25 years if this legislation passes...

 

[caffeinemia]

Agreed. People tend to forget the money and stability they get from medicine and focus on the first few years straight out of residency.

You mean stable like... getting sued all the time. paying with money and more importantly time to fight it. Stable like the high rate of divorce, suicide, depression?

 

[MerickManual]

You mean stable like... getting sued all the time. paying with money and more importantly time to fight it. Stable like one of the highest divorce rates?

Stable meaning you'll find jobs. Your personal life is up to you.

 

[caffeinemia]

Stable meaning you'll find jobs. Your personal life is up to you.

Right and your job will have no interplay with your personal life.

 

[circulus vitios]

Debt sucks but look at it as a $200-300k investment plus interest to make $200-300k+ for 30-40 years.

 

[MerickManual]

Right and your job will have no interplay with your personal life.

Sure it does. Doesn't mean medicine isn't a stable job.

 

[circulus vitios]

You mean stable like... getting sued all the time. paying with money and more importantly time to fight it. Stable like the high rate of divorce, suicide, depression?

Don't match into slave specialties like surgery, family medicine, or internal medicine.

 

[medic86]

Don't match into slave specialties like surgery, family medicine, or internal medicine.

You missed OB/gyn.

 

[QuestionsAnswers]

Living on a student budget for about 13-17 years sounds a lot easier than it actually is.

I realize it depends on each individual situation, but if you have been living on a student budget through undergrad and med school, and then perhaps slightly more than a typical student budget during residency, then why not just continue to do that for a few more years and pay off your loans quickly? That's essentially my plan.

There was literally just an attending on another thread who said this was unrealistic. I guess it's possible in principle, but when you're ~30 you're probably going to have other expenses, and you will continue to live life. You might have a family, a mortgage, etc... You can't plan to not have that stuff because it's way too important in terms of life in general to just put that off for the sake of loans (maybe the house, but not the family).

Well, we'd have to get into the exact numbers which would also depend a lot on your practice area, but let's say you do what I said above (spend most of your money initially during the first years after residency paying off your loans) and you are left with 40-50k pre-taxes... that is the median household income for a middle class American right now. You can get particular about it and add in a family (which could add another income as well) ... as far as a mortgage, are you really not going to go into medicine because of the possibility of having to wait another few years for a mortgage?

 

[circulus vitios]

I realize it depends on each individual situation, but if you have been living on a student budget through undergrad and med school, and then perhaps slightly more than a typical student budget during residency, then why not just continue to do that for a few more years and pay off your loans quickly? That's essentially my plan.

Because it means subjecting oneself to the unimaginable poverty of a $50-60k/year income for 3-4 more years.

 

[chenzt]

So I think his concerns are legitimate. It wouldn't simply just dismiss them.

100k/yr... even 200k/yr and then....
20-30% for fed income tax.
5-10% for state income tax.
5-10% sales tax.
3%? Medicare?
2-5% IRA?
0-20+% malpractice insurance.
(3-4% for potentially NYC tax - this **** is ridic, btw).

Add in **** like 5-10k for residency apps/transition which are not incorporated into your financial aid. Add in Steps, licensing, CME/MOC.

Standard loan debt is currently about 200k coming out of med school. 10 year standard repayment plan is about 8-10k a month. Good luck with that ****.
Get ready to PAYE/IBR for the next 20-25 years. If PSLF goes away, that's the route many people will have to take.

You ready to hustle and hustle hard?

Standard payment on a loan of 200k over 10 year @ 6.8% is 3452/month

Assume current tax bracket and 200k (after paying malpractice insurance - correct me if this isn't realistic) after residency:

23% fed tax with standard deduction (even less if you can itemize)
5% on average state tax (0-9% from Texas to California)
1% sales tax (you can spend only so much on restaurant and shopping)
1.45% medicare tax
3.6% SS tax (only up to ~100k)
10% retirement saving via 401k/IRA or something else
15% on student loan (300k for 15 years to account for loan ballooning during residency)
15% on mortgage and property tax (350k for 30 years and 22 mill for property tax)
5% on food - I can't imagine you needing more than ~1000/month even if you go crazy with organic everything

So it's ~80%, still leaving you with 40k for everything else (clothing, utility, transportation, restaurant, entertainment). Since loan payment is fixed while income can expect small increases to match inflation, loan should occupy less and less portion of income as years go by. While it won't afford you any BMWs, you can certainly do a lot worse.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

Wait, inflation won't match the loans that are growing at 6-7%, or am I missing something here?

Also, 10% on 200k for retirement isn't even maxing out standard retirement vehicles. That's pretty weak for a physician that is already behind on saving.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

.

 

[chenzt]

Wait, inflation won't match the loans that are growing at 6-7%, or am I missing something here?

Also, 10% on 200k for retirement isn't even maxing out standard retirement vehicles. That's pretty weak for a physician that is already behind on saving.

Monthly payment stays constant throughout the duration of a loan (unless you are on IBR I guess... I was talking about traditional repayment). if you have to pay 30k/200k per year in the beginning, but only have to pay 30k/240k per year in the end, less percentage of it is going to loan.

10% on 200k = 20k... I'm hoping for some employer matching to bump it up a bit. 24k over 30 years at 6.5% real return = 2.22 million in today's dollar. Tack on SS to supplement your income, that should be enough for 20 years or so of retirement @ 150k.

401k max out at 17.5k and roth IRA max out at 5.5k until 50, plus 3.2k in HSA so almost maxing here.

 

[Psai]

Life happens kids. You want people to live like a student in their 30s? It's easy to pretend that you'll be fiscally responsible but let's see if you're still thinking the same way when you get there. By that time, you're moving, getting a car, getting a mortgage, getting married, paying for a kid etc. This all costs money. You can't live like a single guy once you're married. Your little equations are cute but include assumptions that don't hold true, like little increases for inflation? hahaha good luck with that when you have a massive media blitz targeting doctor salaries, a government that's loking to pinch pennies and ever more people reaching into your pocket to take a share of your earnings before you see a cent. You don't even know about the other expenses that doctors have like taking board exams. You can easily drop 3k to get board certified if you're specialized. That would probably eat into that projected 40k for incidentals.

 

[chenzt]

It's easy to pretend that you'll be fiscally responsible but let's see if you're still thinking the same way when you get there

I'd say so. I can't imagine myself spending more than I earn. Ever. First step towards financial disaster. To think that many doctors are running a deficit and maxing out credit cards year after year seems silly. Most people adjust their expense with income you know.

By that time, you're moving, getting a car, getting a mortgage, getting married, paying for a kid etc. This all costs money

Moving - One time expense
Mortgage - already included...
Car - 20k toyota that lasts 10 years. Average in ownership and you are looking at 5k/year in cost.
getting married and having a kid - assume spouse will have an income from job; lowers overall tax rate with married status and eligible for more tax credits, itemized deductions, etc, some costs don't double after getting married (mortgage for example), so a greater proportion is freed up for everything else; which can go towards having a kid.

Your little equations are cute but include assumptions that don't hold true, like little increases for inflation? hahaha good luck with that when you have a massive media blitz targeting doctor salaries, a government that's loking to pinch pennies and ever more people reaching into your pocket to take a share of your earnings before you see a cent.

Speculating much?
http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/compensation/2014/public/overview#3

You don't even know about the other expenses that doctors have like taking board exams. You can easily drop 3k to get board certified if you're specialized. That would probably eat into that projected 40k for incidentals.

Certificate lasts 6-10 years? So annual cost is $500? Yea, it's really making a big dent into the 40k/year incidental.

Again, not a lavish lifestyle - but much better than what I'm used to growing up. I may develop a taste for fancier things later in life, but for now, I think I would be content.

Lastly, living on a student budget? Since when is a 200k budget a student budget.

 

[nOchemallday]

Life happens kids. You want people to live like a student in their 30s? It's easy to pretend that you'll be fiscally responsible but let's see if you're still thinking the same way when you get there. By that time, you're moving, getting a car, getting a mortgage, getting married, paying for a kid etc. This all costs money. You can't live like a single guy once you're married. Your little equations are cute but include assumptions that don't hold true, like little increases for inflation? hahaha good luck with that when you have a massive media blitz targeting doctor salaries, a government that's loking to pinch pennies and ever more people reaching into your pocket to take a share of your earnings before you see a cent. You don't even know about the other expenses that doctors have like taking board exams. You can easily drop 3k to get board certified if you're specialized. That would probably eat into that projected 40k for incidentals.

It's pretty easy to be fiscally responsible when you've managed to live your entire life up to this point on <15k/yr. Families living on minimum wage have a car, spouse, and children. So I'll reiterate:

Once you finish residency, you'll be making > $100K/year, so quit fussing.

These "little equations" @chenzt is providing are how the real world works. It's not a secret; it's freely available. This is what we in "the real world" call balancing the books.

Another analysis of post-residency loan repayment without PAYE on a PEDIATRICIAN'S SALARY (<10yrs repayment, but no investment):
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...financial-aid-possible.1052309/#post-14847621

 

[bambam92]

MD is still probably the most stable, and profitable professional route one can pursue. Only thing that I would say is close/equal in terms of guaranteed compensation is dentistry. What other route can you go and guarantee yourself 200+k income for the rest of your life? And this is the lowest you will be making. Everyone throwing out mid level health jobs such as NP, techs, PA, etc. If you calculate the money a physician will earn over his lifetime versus say an NP the difference is astounding. I.e. lets just do some math, 30 years of working as a mid level specialty in medicine, netting $250,000 for 30 years= $7,500,000. Working 30 years as a PA, netting $80,000 for 30 years=$2,400,000. Hmm take the difference, over the course of a lifetime the doctor makes roughly $5.1 MILLION MORE than the PA. In my eyes, this clearly overcomes the differences in costs of education, and if you are in it for maximizing financial reward medicine is the clear cut winner. You have to look at it long term. When I shadow at the hospital there is a difference in the cars the MD's are driving versus the PA's and NP's, they make more. Medicine is still a great route for one seeking to secure financial stability. So yeah, I guess I would say its "worth it" OP.

 

[deleted577188]

Clearly you need to learn calculus and optimization: minimize your debt, which is constrained by your small income.

No seriously, I'm more broke as a family than you. You'll be fine.

 

[Psai]

Cute graph but it will be meaningless for us, assuming that you finish medical school. The private practice model is becoming more and more difficult to sustain and chances are that many of us will be employees. Good luck making those numbers when a hospital or a company is taking a huge chunk of your billings. Of course, any talk about the future is just speculation but you're being silly if you don't take the worst case scenarios into account and just believe that everything will be hunky dory.

You can refute the points I bring up all you want, like the expense of tests. But they're just examples of things that your assumptions don't take into account because you haven't experienced it. So you don't even know to think of these things when you're projecting for yourself how nice your future income is going to be. Equations are not how the real world works. You make a bunch of assumptions that may or may not hold in the future. A lot will change in eight years, including you. It's nice to think that people living on the poverty line are making ends meet easily so people with more money should as well but that's not the case on either side. Spending patterns are very different. Poverty sucks and it's not like you'll be wearing hand-me-downs and eating crappy food when you're making doctor money. It's a silly comparison to make and I doubt that most of the premeds who trot out these tired old argument on a regular basis have actually been poor or ever been a doctor. "They have a car blah blah blah" yeah more like a crappy used car that breaks down every other month and costs more to fix than it is worth. Please.

 

[Espadaleader]

The reason student debt has high rocketed so high is because no one wants to admit that the amount of student debt is unacceptable. It's growing exponentially. Just look at the NEJM article "Are we in a medical education bubble market". No, the OP won't be fine. When is this going to stop? It's not "just part of the game" it's a problem.

 

[chenzt]

Cute graph but it will be meaningless for us, assuming that you finish medical school. The private practice model is becoming more and more difficult to sustain and chances are that many of us will be employees. Good luck making those numbers when a hospital or a company is taking a huge chunk of your billings. Of course, any talk about the future is just speculation but you're being silly if you don't take the worst case scenarios into account and just believe that everything will be hunky dory.

Report mentions hospital employees earn an average of 260k right now. Why the doom and gloom talk? Even if things turn out the worst for us, that's just life and you adjust your expenses. Instead of a 350k mortgage, you take out only a 200k mortgage. Put yourself onto PAYE or IBR. Delay in having kids.

You can refute the points I bring up all you want, like the expense of tests. But they're just examples of things that your assumptions don't take into account because you haven't experienced it. So you don't even know to think of these things when you're projecting for yourself how nice your future income is going to be. Equations are not how the real world works. You make a bunch of assumptions that may or may not hold in the future.

You're right, I haven't. I don't mind admitting I'm working off of imperfect data and that I will have to adjust my projections in 10 years when I actually have a real budget. And hence why the 40k in incidentals so that it's as realistic as I can make it. You still haven't listed any significant expense, except the board test that will cost you 3k every decade or so and the sky-is-falling with physician salary that may or may not happen to refute my argument. As @nOchemallday mentioned, it's called balancing the book. Millions of Americans do it every day to make ends meet. Equations really IS how the real world works, especially when you try to figure out if you can afford certain things.

It's nice to think that people living on the poverty line are making ends meet easily so people with more money should as well but that's not the case on either side. Spending patterns are very different. Poverty sucks and it's not like you'll be wearing hand-me-downs and eating crappy food when you're making doctor money. It's a silly comparison to make.

No, it's not easy for people in poverty making ends meet. But they still manage don't they? Spending patterns are different but if doctor refuse to believe that his mortgage is taking up a too big portion of his income and he ends up with almost nothing left every month, then hand-me-downs are all he's going to afford, and that's HIS choice. As a doctor, your living standard is based off of your income like everyone else, not living like a royalty without any consideration to your income.

"They have a car blah blah blah" yeah more like a crappy used car that breaks down every other month and costs more to fix than it is worth. Please.

If you are making 200k and the only thing you can afford is a crappy used car that breaks down every other month, you're doing something wrong.

Are you seriously arguing that some physicians cannot live comfortably with their salary through no fault of their own?

 

[Psai]

Jesus christ. You have no experience so any argument you bring up is meaningless because you don't know what you're talking about. There are so many little things that eat up your money and at the end of the day you wonder where it all went. I'm not about to list everything that costs money. You've never balanced your checkbook ever so what's the point in taking your calculations seriously? The fact that you're trying to dissect my post and dismiss the points shows that you're totally clueless and missing the forest for the trees. It's not about living comfortably or not. OP is asking if it's worth it. Your salary as a number is not the point here. The number itself compared to what other people make is not what he's asking about. The question is it worth it to go through all that sacrifice? Answer: probably not.

 

[chenzt]

Jesus christ. You have no experience so any argument you bring up is meaningless because you don't know what you're talking about. There are so many little things that eat up your money and at the end of the day you wonder where it all went. I'm not about to list everything that costs money. You've never balanced your checkbook ever so what's the point in taking your calculations seriously? The fact that you're trying to dissect my post and dismiss the points shows that you're totally clueless and missing the forest for the trees. It's not about living comfortably or not. OP is asking if it's worth it. Your salary as a number is not the point here. The number itself compared to what other people make is not what he's asking about. The question is it worth it to go through all that sacrifice? Answer: probably not.

Here we go again - the pre-med who doesn't know anything argument. Even though we're literally talking about arithmetic here and nothing about the job aspect of it (which I admit know nothing more than from second hand sources). I actually have a job right now living by myself, so yes I do balance my check book. Good one there. You on the other hand as a medical student, haven't needed to balance a checkbook for the years you been a student and have yet to live on a physician salary. So how is your argument any better?

I guess we'll agree to disagree. You believe it's not worth it - probably also because of the stuff you're going through as a medical student. I on the other hand thinks it is worth it from a financial stand point, because you will have enough to live comfortably. Not trying to spin anything controversial here.

 

[Psai]

Here we go again - the premed who doesn't believe he doesn't know anything. You've invested nothing. The argument isn't about living comfortably. It's about if you're being paid enough to make up for all the time you've invested and all the crap you have to deal with.

 

[chenzt]

Here we go again - the premed who doesn't believe he doesn't know anything. You've invested nothing. The argument isn't about living comfortably. It's about if you're being paid enough to make up for all the time you've invested and all the crap you have to deal with.

Even though we're literally talking about arithmetic here and nothing about the job aspect of it (which I admit know nothing more than from second hand sources).

Clearly.

Again, you can believe what you want. My original argument was about living comfortably before you jumped in. I'm just offering OP another view that if he's willing to put up with all the crap, financially he will do well. Never did I tell OP that the crap you go through is definitely worth it.

Here's OP's original question:

I really, really want to get in to medical field. I've always wanted to and it's always been one of my biggest passions. I'm not really sure if I can afford to do it. How do people normally afford to do it? I need as much help as I can get before I'm forced to give up my life long dream.

He's clearly asking about the financial aspect of going into medicine. Somehow you managed to read that into "is medicine worth it after everything is considered"

 

[deleted314957]

I've asked this question before to people but haven't quite gotten a straight answer. How worth it is it to get into the medical field?

My biggest concern is finances, as well as being overall happy. My undergraduate is going to cost approximately $80,000 in total for all four years. On top of that, I would have to add the cost of medical school. Using the average price of medical school, it could cost around $160,000 in total for all four years. That's $240,000 for my education. My family doesn't make that much money to be able to afford anything that expensive as it is (maybe about $60,000 a year).
Obviously, I'm considering loans and all that, but is it worth it to get that much in debt? I read somewhere that medical student graduates are on average up to $160,000-$180,000 in debt when they graduate. That's a lot of money. Then, taking loans interest would build up resulting in even more debt.

Most people say, "if you're passionate enough to become a doctor and really want to you can do it." Okay, that's cute and all but that's not reality. I'm not sure if my family and I have the money to do that. Whenever I was asked what I wanted to be ever since I was little the answer was something involving medicine. It's always been my dream and I don't want to give it up. However, I need to stay realistic. I don't want to struggle for 8+ years financially just because I'm in debt from my education. I want to be able to live a happy life. Being in constant stress because of debt is the last thing I want to do.

I really, really want to get in to medical field. I've always wanted to and it's always been one of my biggest passions. I'm not really sure if I can afford to do it. How do people normally afford to do it? I need as much help as I can get before I'm forced to give up my life long dream.

Ever heard of the military or Public Health Service?

 

[sazerac]

The OP wants to know how we afford medical school and eventually a medical lifestyle in today's financial environment.

People who have not been down the path of medicine often propose "living like a resident" for a few years after becoming an attending, to pay down loans. Arithmetically, this is a sound solution. People who have been down the path of medicine all say that expenses increase exponentially once you become an attending. Logically this makes no sense; it makes doctors look like they have irresponsible financial behavior. But I have spoken to enough attendings that I just accept it as fact now. If somebody says they are going to "live like a resident on an attending salary," please consider the source and how much experience they have in a career in medicine.

The way medical professionals today combine their medium-high incomes with sky-high loans is through the various repayment plans that base monthly payments on current income, not on principal or interest size. This keeps the month-to-month payments manageable, but in many cases delays the inevitable pain of paying off the loan.

There are various safety valves in these loans that eventually forgive the remaining loan amount. How this really works is unclear because nobody has had their loan forgiven due to elapsed time yet; these forgiveness programs are too new. Some folks have become disabled and had their student loans forgiven. They report that if the forgiveness is taxable (and many forgiveness events are) then even the forgiveness is financially devastating.

Sorry for the lengthy post, but that is the financial reality of medical student loans in 2014. Most of us will essentially be sitting on financial time bombs that come due around the year 2040, give or take five years. What the financial landscape will look like then is anybody's guess. But a good number of people in all sorts of professions (including medicine) are going to be living in 'interesting' fiscal times, looking to the government for temporary or permanent relief from their decades-old loans.

 

[circulus vitios]

Jesus christ. You have no experience so any argument you bring up is meaningless because you don't know what you're talking about. There are so many little things that eat up your money and at the end of the day you wonder where it all went. I'm not about to list everything that costs money. You've never balanced your checkbook ever so what's the point in taking your calculations seriously? The fact that you're trying to dissect my post and dismiss the points shows that you're totally clueless and missing the forest for the trees. It's not about living comfortably or not. OP is asking if it's worth it. Your salary as a number is not the point here. The number itself compared to what other people make is not what he's asking about. The question is it worth it to go through all that sacrifice? Answer: probably not.

Are you seriously arguing that it's impossible or even difficult for an attending to live on $50-60k/year for a few years after completion of his residency?