Lets talk $

[valentinoRossi]

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Hypothetical situation here....work with me

Group Private Practice
I'm either a LCSW or a PsyD...(theoretically)
i came into the field for the purposes of helping people...but i just had twins, and $ is a factor now. I'm a 30 year old male therapist living in North Carolina...
I dont want to do assessments if i were a psyd.
How much can i expect to make?
I love what i do and work hard...

talk to me

 

[DynamicDidactic]

try this http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes211023.htm and then try this http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes193031.htm

 

[erg923]

Hypothetical situation here....work with me

Group Private Practice
I'm either a LCSW or a PsyD...(theoretically)
i came into the field for the purposes of helping people...but i just had twins, and $ is a factor now. I'm a 30 year old male therapist living in North Carolina...
I dont want to do assessments if i were a psyd.
How much can i expect to make?
I love what i do and work hard...

talk to me

I have no idea how much you can expect to make because we dont know you. I dont know your committment level, your willingness to work over 40 hours a week, your skill level as a therpaist (patients talk ya know), the financial arrangement of the practice you're talking about (its up to the partners and varies alot from practice to practice), or anything about the practice for that matter (self-pay vs insurance? do they see medicare patients?)

 

[Pragma]

It depends on who you are going to be seeing as patients. But if you wants to be a therapist, I'd recommend just getting the MSW and moving on from there. You'll probably have more options, although you won't be eligible for doctoral level compensation. But honestly, the difference is minimal enough these days.

It is a more complicated question though, as others have mentioned. How good you are matters.

 

[valentinoRossi]

okay, lets say i'm in a group practice and i'm damn good at what i do...i'm a LCSW and i work primarily with adolescents and young adults...males particularly. Given that I would be 30 years old, it would be a nice niche for me and i feel comfortable working with that age range.
I want to be good at therapy, not just average, but i want my patients to walk out of my office with no regrets of seeing me. I will work my ass off to be that good. I'm hungry to be a good clinician, one that makes real solid changes in my clients. I just need some averages here, ofcourse i understand that everything is relative...but i need something to work with. An idea of where im heading, so i can accurately calibrate my financial plans in life.

 

[cara susanna]

You're going to burn out if that is your attitude. Not every client is going to change. They will request other therapists because something about you didn't click or they disliked you. They are going to stop showing up and you may never hear from them again. They are going to not do their homework. Some clients will make it worth it, but some will make you want to quit.

 

[Pragma]

okay, lets say i'm in a group practice and i'm damn good at what i do...i'm a LCSW and i work primarily with adolescents and young adults...males particularly. Given that I would be 30 years old, it would be a nice niche for me and i feel comfortable working with that age range.
I want to be good at therapy, not just average, but i want my patients to walk out of my office with no regrets of seeing me. I will work my ass off to be that good. I'm hungry to be a good clinician, one that makes real solid changes in my clients. I just need some averages here, ofcourse i understand that everything is relative...but i need something to work with. An idea of where im heading, so i can accurately calibrate my financial plans in life.

Well, depends where you live and who are you clientele (insurance or out of pocket). Dynamic's links may be helpful.

You will incur more debt getting a PsyD. You will be paying it off for awhile. I am not sure about MSWs, but I doubt you will pay as much as you do to get the PsyD.

There are increasingly fewer incentives to be a doctoral-level therapist, although you probably would get better training (as a function of time) if you get the doctoral degree. You also would be more marketable to a group practice if you can get licensed at the doctoral level.

If my goal was to be a therapist though, I probably wouldn't get a PsyD. Too much debt to worry about to get there, particularly if you just had kids. You can function as a therapist with a master's, would pay less, and would get into the market earlier.

It is just my opinion, but I don't think having a PsyD is going to mean much 10 years from now compared to a master's given that they are a dime a dozen these days. I know some fabulous PsyD folks who are better clinicians than I am, but they come from good programs. Unfortunately, there are a lot more people going to other programs with tons of people admitted each year with questionable training quality. They are hurting the name of the degree, not the competent and talented folks.

 

[valentinoRossi]

You're going to burn out if that is your attitude. Not every client is going to change. They will request other therapists because something about you didn't click or they disliked you. They are going to stop showing up and you may never hear from them again. They are going to not do their homework. Some clients will make it worth it, but some will make you want to quit.

i completely understand what your saying...im not trying to be unrealistic, im just trying to say that i have a fire to do well thats all. I know that i wont be a dr.phil but as long as i am trying my best to be i believe i will do well. sigh....i dont think im being naive here...i'm enthusiastic, and i hope to never lose that energy. Being burnt out would be great...in the sense that i can tell myself i've put my all. Hopefully a short break from pp can reenergize me, but maybe i wont ever get burnt out in the first place...who knows....i just get turned off when i see so much negativity on these forums...Why did you guys go into the field?

 

[cara susanna]

I'm less-than-enthusiastic about therapy, you shouldn't take my view as the only one. But I started out thinking I'd love clinical work.

 

[erg923]

Who's paying for the all this therapy?

PS: And I don't think anyone was being negative here. Just pragmatic.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

i completely understand what your saying...im not trying to be unrealistic, im just trying to say that i have a fire to do well thats all. I know that i wont be a dr.phil but as long as i am trying my best to be i believe i will do well. sigh....i dont think im being naive here...i'm enthusiastic, and i hope to never lose that energy. Being burnt out would be great...in the sense that i can tell myself i've put my all. Hopefully a short break from pp can reenergize me, but maybe i wont ever get burnt out in the first place...who knows....

 

[valentinoRossi]

...a number...can someone throw out a number? anything?

 

[aequitasveritas]

Hypothetical situation here....work with me

Group Private Practice
I'm either a LCSW or a PsyD...(theoretically)
i came into the field for the purposes of helping people...but i just had twins, and $ is a factor now. I'm a 30 year old male therapist living in North Carolina...
I dont want to do assessments if i were a psyd.
How much can i expect to make?
I love what i do and work hard...

talk to me

Obviously the notion of 'good" is complicated.

If we settle on terms of "good" it's not unreasonable to make around 100-150k after about 2 yrs. This is not profit. After overhead and taxes you can walk away with about half.

Trying really really hard is also not a sufficient condition for being a skilled clinician. As you acquire more depth in this field you will know what I mean.

 

[erg923]

...a number...can someone throw out a number? anything?

Not really. Cause there are too many variables that can/will affect earning potential. Also, most of us are doctoral-level psychologists or doctoral students, NOT LCSWs. However, I will repost what I wrote in response to another persons question yesterday that was very similar to this. Its really nothing that myself and others havent already said in this thread.

I don't think an "average" is an appropriate statistic for this question, as there are simply too many variables, too many outliers skewing the numbers...not mention the variations of PPs out there (solo vs.large multidiciplinary group PP).

I am interviewing at practice where the the members earn 6 figures twice over. Conversely, I have cousin-in-law who rents her office space, only does psychotheray (third-party reimbursed) and profits, I would guess, not much over 50k.

What you make in PP is largely up to you, how much you put into it, how business savy you are/become, how you maximize productivity, etc. Also, of course, where you live and the population you see.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I'm less-than-enthusiastic about therapy, you shouldn't take my view as the only one. But I started out thinking I'd love clinical work.

This actually seems to work in both directions quite frequently, at least from what I've seen--of all the people I know who were CERTAIN coming into grad school that they wanted to focus mostly on clinical work, probably 50% decide at some point that if they never saw another client/patient after graduation, they'd be quite content. And conversely, of all the people I know who were CERTAIN about following a largely research-oriented/academic career, again about half decide that they love therapy and assessment after being "forced" to see more clients than they would've originally liked.

To the OP: I know the forums can come across as negative sometimes, but I think it's largely because all too often we see individuals coming into the field with little to no idea what the field is actually about (often through no fault of their own). Heck, most of us are still students ourselves, and only have limited exposure to the "real world" of psych practice. We just know that sometimes, as has happened to many of us, faculty can attempt to paint an overly-rosy (or at least not-entirely-realistic) picture of what things might be like "on the outside." Most of us wouldn't be in this field if we didn't deeply enjoy what we do, but at the same time, when someone comes asking a question such as yours, we generally know what all of your advisors have probably told you up to this point, so we eschew all that and (as erg said) focus on the pragmatics.

 

[Pragma]

This actually seems to work in both directions quite frequently, at least from what I've seen--of all the people I know who were CERTAIN coming into grad school that they wanted to focus mostly on clinical work, probably 50% decide at some point that if they never saw another client/patient after graduation, they'd be quite content. And conversely, of all the people I know who were CERTAIN about following a largely research-oriented/academic career, again about half decide that they love therapy and assessment after being "forced" to see more clients than they would've originally liked.

To the OP: I know the forums can come across as negative sometimes, but I think it's largely because all too often we see individuals coming into the field with little to no idea what the field is actually about (often through no fault of their own). Heck, most of us are still students ourselves, and only have limited exposure to the "real world" of psych practice. We just know that sometimes, as has happened to many of us, faculty can attempt to paint an overly-rosy (or at least not-entirely-realistic) picture of what things might be like "on the outside." Most of us wouldn't be in this field if we didn't deeply enjoy what we do, but at the same time, when someone comes asking a question such as yours, we generally know what all of your advisors have probably told you up to this point, so we eschew all that and (as erg said) focus on the pragmatics.

I'd add that not only are some of us pragmatic (not just in name), but we can be jerks too

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I'd add that not only are some of us pragmatic (not just in name), but we can be jerks too

We've gotta vent it somewhere, might as well be at each other...😍

 

[Ollie123]

Since you want numbers...somewhere between 30k and 150k?

The reason you aren't getting numbers is that's probably about as specific as anyone can likely be, and I'm guessing it isn't particularly helpful. Private practice is hugely variable, its just the nature of the beast. Its a business, like any other business. You can be wildly successful or you can fail miserably. This depends on more factors than we could possibly figure out with someone we've never met over a message board. Working hard is important, but working smart is important too, as is being in the right place at the right time, knowing the right people, having that elusive "business sense" and being financially motivated (which can often run counter to patient care), etc.

 

[Rivi]

The numbers that I have seen and heard from experienced clinicians are that private practice clinicians make 20,000$ a year (take home income) for every full day of the week they work, on average, with full-time practice. So, for example:

5 days a week of full time practice =
5 x 20,000$ = 100,000$ a year, so on and so forth.

These numbers don't include the time spent in marketing, networking, etc. These are simply ball park figures, but should give you somewhat of an estimate.

 

[voyeurofthemind]

I was going to say - "in before this becomes a doom and gloom thread". Too late. I really need to stop reading SDN.

 

[nitemagi]

To the OP, your best shot at getting #'s is to find someone doing what you want to do where you want to do it, and Ask Them.

 

[yeti2213]

talking about $$$

what is the salary like for an academic psychologist? does it partly depend on what grants and how much of them you are pulling in?

 

[starsinnight]

I'll throw some numbers out there. Please people tell me how wrong I am. 🙂

$40,000 starting off as a newbie and depending on experience, committment, and devotion to having no social life whatsoever/being a workaholic - $80,000 and possibly more if you write books, having multiple roles (clinic, academic, funded research), become famous and delusional, etc etc.

Is between 40k to 80k a somewhat accurate amount yet very, very large range depending on all other factors?

 

[Pragma]

I'll throw some numbers out there. Please people tell me how wrong I am. 🙂

$40,000 starting off as a newbie and depending on experience, committment, and devotion to having no social life whatsoever/being a workaholic - $80,000 and possibly more if you write books, having multiple roles (clinic, academic, funded research), become famous and delusional, etc etc.

Is between 40k to 80k a somewhat accurate amount yet very, very large range depending on all other factors?

Sounds about right to me. From what I understand, you have to be pretty well established to be making close to 6 figures. That includes a high-income referral base, and I highly doubt those folks take insurance (or take it often).

 

[yeti2213]

In academic medical, to succeed, you must get grants or pay for yourself with clinical work. In psychology, you can get tenure in many places just by publishing and showing movement toward funding. Very different standard.

Maybe this should be a whole separate thread about academic career paths... I have heard that the salaries in medicine are more flexible, that if you bring in more grants etc you can adjust your own salary... but in psych dept its more set... is that accurate?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Maybe this should be a whole separate thread about academic career paths... I have heard that the salaries in medicine are more flexible, that if you bring in more grants etc you can adjust your own salary... but in psych dept its more set... is that accurate?

I do think that academic/university salaries are fairly fixed, as (again, I believe) they're set by the state and/or board of regents. There might be some wiggle room or bonuses available for taking on extra positions, such as chairing a department or the like. Also, the hiring package is negotiable--if not so much with respect to salary, then at least regarding travel and start-up funds/equipment. I believe teaching load is also somewhat negotiable, particularly if you're coming in with grant funding.

Also, as JS mentioned, university faculty appointments are generally for 9 months. Thus, unless you teach summer courses, you maintain a decent amount of availability to pursue external opportunities during school breaks.

 

[thepug]

The numbers that I have seen and heard from experienced clinicians are that private practice clinicians make 20,000$ a year (take home income) for every full day of the week they work, on average, with full-time practice. So, for example:

5 days a week of full time practice =
5 x 20,000$ = 100,000$ a year, so on and so forth.

These numbers don't include the time spent in marketing, networking, etc. These are simply ball park figures, but should give you somewhat of an estimate.

If your getting $80 an hour, that's like seeing 5 clients a day. So yeah working a 30 hr work week I'd say 100k is about right if your practicing in a decent area.

If you have the stamina, and many people do, you can see over 10 clients a day and make much more $$$.

It's a question of do you want to work 30 hrs or like 45-50. It's a lot of work, but it beats being a depressed old academic 😉

 

[valentinoRossi]

thank you for all your responses....
i completely understand that everything is relative and there are dozens of variables.

I'm sure there is a clinical social worker out there who is making 80k a year and is living comfortably while having a career that he loves. I need to know that one exists just so i know that it's not entire impossible. It may not mean to some, but i like to have a goal, an example that i would like to be similar to. It helps me stay focused. It helps me know that my kids will be fine.

 

[valentinoRossi]

If your getting $80 an hour, that's like seeing 5 clients a day. So yeah working a 30 hr work week I'd say 100k is about right if your practicing in a decent area.

If you have the stamina, and many people do, you can see over 10 clients a day and make much more $$$.

It's a question of do you want to work 30 hrs or like 45-50. It's a lot of work, but it beats being a depressed old academic 😉

yeah i feel like i have this energy within me to work...hard...and keep going and going. Maybe i'll burnt out, but as long as i'm giving it my all i'm happy.

 

[thepug]

yeah i feel like i have this energy within me to work...hard...and keep going and going. Maybe i'll burnt out, but as long as i'm giving it my all i'm happy.

What is burning out? I mean, if you wanted to be "Lucy" so to speak, you just can't burn out.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

Maybe i'll burnt out, but as long as i'm giving it my all i'm happy.

That makes absolutely no sense. It's like saying, "Maybe I'll be poor, but as long as I'm working an 80-hour week at $5/hour, I'll be rich."

 

[thepug]

BTW, what is the hourly rate for those who take insurance in say a large city?

 

[Pragma]

If your getting $80 an hour, that's like seeing 5 clients a day. So yeah working a 30 hr work week I'd say 100k is about right if your practicing in a decent area.

If you have the stamina, and many people do, you can see over 10 clients a day and make much more $$$.

It's a question of do you want to work 30 hrs or like 45-50. It's a lot of work, but it beats being a depressed old academic 😉

If it were that easy...

Unless you work out of your house and recruit all of those clients (that will come every week) yourself, you'll probably be paying 40% or more to an agency you work with for overhead. Then take out taxes. Then you still do marketing.

I am not planning on doing clinical work in a private practice, but for those who are successful, I think you will do best in a less desireable location (where there is more need), with obsessive marketing, and demonstrating strong skill in a particular area.

 

[Pragma]

BTW, what is the hourly rate for those who take insurance in say a large city?

Depends on your degree/level of licensure. As low as 60 bucks per hour for Master's, maybe less in some places with a huge surplus of providers on panels?

 

[thepug]

Depends on your degree/level of licensure. As low as 60 bucks per hour for Master's, maybe less in some places with a huge surplus of providers on panels?

It doesn't seem like a lot of people are on insurance panels in the large city in which I live.
Really hardly any. Maybe taking insurance isn't popular I don't know.

To your other comment, it seems like getting patients is not a problem at all based on the people I talk to. I mean you'll literally be beating them off with a stick. But this is in a big city.

 

[Pragma]

It doesn't seem like a lot of people are on insurance panels in the large city in which I live.
Really hardly any. Maybe taking insurance isn't popular I don't know.

To your other comment, it seems like getting patients is not a problem at all based on the people I talk to. I mean you'll literally be beating them off with a stick. But this is in a big city.

Yeah every area is unique. However, in some big cities, the therapy market is very saturated with lots of master's level providers.

Not taking insurance is definitely an option, but you are restricting yourself to a very particular clientele (affluent folks who can pay out of pocket).

I'd just hate for people to get too rosy of a picture painted for them. Being a part of a private practice agency typically means surrendering a high percentage of your fees for office space, affiliation, and other overhead. You also have to note the time you spend for charting, etc.

Some therapists draw a salary and work for a health system - becoming much more common option for folks who are insured.

But to make over 100,000, you'd need to be really renowned and work a lot (or charge a lot and have folks willing to pay it).

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Most private practices charge more for the intake session ($120-$180+, CPT billing code 90801...if they accept insurance), as there is an assumption more information needs to be collected and more time spent for an intake. Follow-up sessions will be billed at a different rate. Some insurance companies will screw providers ($60/session) while others may pay much better ($90-$100+/session), though it really depends on the market. With mid-level encroachment and a surplus of providers, it is not uncommon to find insurance panels not accepting new providers.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

But to make over 100,000, you'd need to be really renowned and work a lot (or charge a lot and have folks willing to pay it).

Absolutely not. I know completely mediocre therapists (mid-level & doctorally trained) that make $100k+ because they have a couple of good referral sources and negotiated favorable rates (with worker's comp, employee assistance, evals for the court system, etc). With that being said, If you accept $60-$80 a session....you will not make $100k/yr and most likely you will not be able to survive in private practice. More and more providers are dropping insurance panels because of ridiculously low reimbursement rates and higher than normal rejection %'s for coverage. Taking insurance is just not worth it for many clinicians...but obviously many still do.

 

[Pragma]

Most private practices charge more for the intake session ($120-$180+, CPT billing code 90801...if they accept insurance), as there is an assumption more information needs to be collected and more time spent for an intake. Follow-up sessions will be billed at a different rate. Some insurance companies will screw providers ($60/session) while others may pay much better ($90-$100+/session), though it really depends on the market. With mid-level encroachment and a surplus of providers, it is not uncommon to find insurance panels not accepting new providers.

I think it is fair to say the market is trending down and will probably continue to with the surplus of providers for mental health services.

As far as those rates, are those PhD level? Because I have never seen an insurance panel fee sheet offering 90 dollars for a Master's level provider. 60 is much more common from what I have seen.

Private practice and therapy is not my thing, but I haven't heard too many folks speak favorably about reimbursement or insurance issues at all. The happy ones don't deal with insurance, but work in boutique practices for the affluent clients.

 

[Pragma]

Absolutely not. I know completely mediocre therapists (mid-level & doctorally trained) that make $100k+ because they have a couple of good referral sources and negotiated favorable rates (with worker's comp, employee assistance, evals for the court system, etc). If you accept $60-$80 a session....you will not make $100k/yr and most likely you will not be able to survive in private practice.

Providing out of pocket services?

I don't doubt it is possible, but not working a 30 hour week, as was the premise earlier in the thread. Trying to see closer to 30-40 patients a week, sure, 100K is possible.

 

[Pragma]

More and more providers are dropping insurance panels because of ridiculously low reimbursement rates and higher than normal rejection %'s for coverage. Taking insurance is just not worth it for many clinicians...but obviously many still do.

Right, but I just wonder how many people out there these days have the funds to pay $100-200 per hour for therapy. I know people do pay this, but I am not sure someone contemplating graduate school can count on a large pool of potential clients who can afford that in this economy.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I think it is fair to say the market is trending down and will probably continue to with the surplus of providers for mental health services.

Agreed.

As far as those rates, are those PhD level? Because I have never seen an insurance panel fee sheet offering 90 dollars for a Master's level provider. 60 is much more common from what I have seen.

Doctoral-level, I'm not sure what mid-level rates are these days. Cash-only can be whatever the market is willing to pay, for insurance...it is often a % of a rate. Some reimbursement rates are worse than others.

Private practice and therapy is not my thing, but I haven't heard too many folks speak favorably about reimbursement or insurance issues at all. The happy ones don't deal with insurance, but work in boutique practices for the affluent clients.

More and more doctoral providers are leaving insurance panels because the rates are just not competitive. I don't know what the going rates are for private practice therapy, though I do know a larger % of neuropsychologists are opting out of all private insurance and most medicare/medicaid options.

 

[Pragma]

. I don't know what the going rates are for private practice therapy, though I do know a larger % of neuropsychologists are opting out of all private insurance and most medicare/medicaid options.

Well yeah, but I was talking therapy. Duly noted that it is possible to make a good living in private practice.

However, I have my own personal bias a) being from a very big city with a competitive market, b) from the private practioners I know that have had to seek wealthy clients, which is probably going to dry up eventually for Average Joe therapist, and c) as someone who wouldn't ever consider paying out of pocket for something provided through insurance (unless I end up making the big bucks).

Just my opinion - I don't see an exodus away from insurance lasting very long or being a viable option for most providers.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Right, but I just wonder how many people out there these days have the funds to pay $100-200 per hour for therapy. I know people do pay this, but I am not sure someone contemplating graduate school can count on a large pool of potential clients who can afford that in this economy.

If a student wants to hang a shingle and do psychotherapy, getting a Ph.D. or Psy.D. is a poor financial decision. The market is flooded (and getting worse) and reimbursement rates are going down. Some can make it work, but it really is nothing like it was 20-30 years ago. If a prospective student asked me about outlook...I'd tell them to go into another field unless they have a really good reason to go into psych. Wanting to "help people" is not a good reason.

 

[Pragma]

If a student wants to hang a shingle and do psychotherapy, getting a Ph.D. or Psy.D. is a poor financial decision. The market is flooded (and getting worse) and reimbursement rates are going down. Some can make it work, but it really is nothing like it was 20-30 years ago. If a prospective student asked me about outlook...I'd tell them to go into another field unless they have a really good reason to go into psych. Wanting to "help people" is not a good reason.

Well said. I'd like to say anything is possible if you work hard enough, but even that might not be true for a lot of people currently in school who want to be therapists. Sacrifices on where you live, income, and the types of patients you want to work with likely will be necessary.

 

[sacredrage]

http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Psychologist-Salary-Details.aspx
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Clinical_Psychologist/Salary

 

[tkuhug]

If a student wants to hang a shingle and do psychotherapy, getting a Ph.D. or Psy.D. is a poor financial decision. The market is flooded (and getting worse) and reimbursement rates are going down. Some can make it work, but it really is nothing like it was 20-30 years ago. If a prospective student asked me about outlook...I'd tell them to go into another field unless they have a really good reason to go into psych. Wanting to "help people" is not a good reason.

What then, just for the sake of curiosity of your honest opinion, would be a pragmatic alternative to practicing psychotherapy?

 

[Pragma]

http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Psychologist-Salary-Details.aspx
http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Clinical_Psychologist/Salary

You do realize these estimates include every area of psychology, including all non-clinical areas such as I/O, academics, etc...

There is wide variability. I/O psychologists and neuropsychologists may have a very high earning potential (the latter especially if they develop a strong forensic practice). Getting a government job these days (e.g., VA) means starting at a higher salary after training. Some school psychologists are quite well compensated.

One overarching theme is that people who got established in jobs awhile ago get really high salaries, but the earning outlook for some newer folks is probably a bit lower nowadays. Ex: in academic jobs, getting a TT position is harder than it was 20-30 years ago, and many of our advisors who got those jobs then benefitted from more liberal annual raise structures, etc over the years.

Being a "psychologist" doesn't even include master's level providers, which was a big part of this thread earlier. You are paid less without a doctorate.

 

[ClinicalABA]

What then, just for the sake of curiosity of your honest opinion, would be a pragmatic alternative to practicing psychotherapy?

Systems level clinical design and outcome analysis; clinical QA/QI; teaching and supervision; non-clinical program outcome analysis; human services administration; research (in both academic and applied settings); test/survey construction and analysis; program consultation (e.g. to schools, long term care facilities, etc.); a combination of any of the above.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Systems level clinical design and outcome analysis; clinical QA/QI; teaching and supervision; non-clinical program outcome analysis; human services administration; research (in both academic and applied settings); test/survey construction and analysis; program consultation (e.g. to schools, long term care facilities, etc.); a combination of any of the above.

+1.

I think what many students (and clniicans) forget is that a clinical psychologist should have solid research training that can allow them to go into any/all areas of work that require a strong research/statistics foundation. We as a profession are losing marketshare to mid-level providers (and even nursing and para-professionals who claim to do therapy...or at least can bill to do therapy), so we cannot blindly cling to a sinking ship.

There will always be some therapy positions out there because some people still value working with a doctorally-trained professional, though I'd argue that people need to work harder and harder to get less of a return (compared to 10-20 years ago). People still make a go of it and can sometimes do quite well, though the "average" clinical psychologist is not a person I would recommend becoming. You eitheir need to be in the top %-tiles of the traditional areas of the field, you need to expand into related areas like the above posted mentioned, or you need to leave the field completely.