Life Happens: Changing gears from M.D. to Ph.D.

[Circadian Squid]

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Last admission cycle I applied to 15 programs, interviewed at Michigan State and my local medical school, was placed on the alternate-list at both programs and eventually both classes filled and I was out of luck.

Since that time I met a girl, got engaged, got married and we just got an offer accepted on a house. Unexpected, but the best thing that has ever happened to me. I'm a non-traditional applicant at 27 years of age and after doing the finances and a realistic time-frame for our plans to start a family within the next 2-3 years, a medical education just isn't in the cards.

I've decided to pursue a Ph.D. in neuroscience in place of the M.D. My initial ambition was to have a career in academic medicine (heading towards neurology); devoting (ideally) 50% of my practice to research and teaching and the other 50% to patient care each week. With the Ph.D. I'm sacrificing the patient care and extensive knowledge gained in medical school but also avoiding the ~$250,000 in medical school debt over 4 years (my local Ph.D. program waives tuition completely and pays a $26,000 yearly stipend), the uncertainty of which state I'll be dragging my wife to for med school, then residency, then fellowship in addition to a more "conventional" weekly schedule with a Ph.D. versus M.D.

I'm confident this is the correct decision for me and my future family. I was just curious if any other SDN pre-meds have found themselves contemplating the cost-benefit scenario that I have just recently gone through; weighing the personal, financial and psychosocial pitfalls and pleasures of medical school and how you came out of the other side?

 

[Chrome19]

What were your stats? MCAT, GPA, etc.

 

[gettheleadout]

I think for many of us the distinguishing factor is research vs application (in this case, the practice of medicine.)

 

[Frazier]

Last admission cycle I applied to 15 programs, interviewed at Michigan State and my local medical school, was placed on the alternate-list at both programs and eventually both classes filled and I was out of luck.

Since that time I met a girl, got engaged, got married and we just got an offer accepted on a house. Unexpected, but the best thing that has ever happened to me. I'm a non-traditional applicant at 27 years of age and after doing the finances and a realistic time-frame for our plans to start a family within the next 2-3 years, a medical education just isn't in the cards.

I've decided to pursue a Ph.D. in neuroscience in place of the M.D. My initial ambition was to have a career in academic medicine (heading towards neurology); devoting (ideally) 50% of my practice to research and teaching and the other 50% to patient care each week. With the Ph.D. I'm sacrificing the patient care and extensive knowledge gained in medical school but also avoiding the ~$250,000 in medical school debt over 4 years (my local Ph.D. program waives tuition completely and pays a $26,000 yearly stipend), the uncertainty of which state I'll be dragging my wife to for med school, then residency, then fellowship in addition to a more "conventional" weekly schedule with a Ph.D. versus M.D.

I'm confident this is the correct decision for me and my future family. I was just curious if any other SDN pre-meds have found themselves contemplating the cost-benefit scenario that I have just recently gone through; weighing the personal, financial and psychosocial pitfalls and pleasures of medical school and how you came out of the other side?

What were your stats? MCAT, GPA, etc.

lol SDN poster on auto-response?

In other news, congrats on your developments, OP, as well as discovering a new path that excites you. G'luck.

 

[Circadian Squid]

What were your stats? MCAT, GPA, etc.

MCAT = 28T (10 VR, 9 BS, 9 PS)

GPA = 3.7 science and 3.7 other

Research = 4.5 years on a project focused on the genetics of circadian rhythm sleep disorders and 4.5 years on a different project focused on the neurobiology of learning & memory, 2 first-author abstract publications in peer-reviewed journal, 15 minute oral presentation at a national sleep research conference and a separate poster presentation at this conference as well; all of these were in 2011 and added as updates to my previous 2011 med application.

Volunteering = 2 years as a respite care volunteer for a local hospice, 2 years as an English language tutor volunteer at a local English Skills Learning Center focused on immigrants and refugees

Those are the basics and mercifully brief (I hope). My undergrad was in psychology and post-bac courses preparing for med school (biology, chem, physics, etc) which are conveniently all of the pre-req's for the neuroscience Ph.D. program I'll be applying to this year. Feel free to ask any other questions.

 

[Chrome19]

MCAT = 28T (10 VR, 9 BS, 9 PS)

GPA = 3.7 science and 3.7 other

Research = 4.5 years on a project focused on the genetics of circadian rhythm sleep disorders and 4.5 years on a different project focused on the neurobiology of learning & memory, 2 first-author abstract publications in peer-reviewed journal, 15 minute oral presentation at a national sleep research conference and a separate poster presentation at this conference as well; all of these were in 2011 and added as updates to my previous 2011 med application.

Volunteering = 2 years as a respite care volunteer for a local hospice, 2 years as an English language tutor volunteer at a local English Skills Learning Center focused on immigrants and refugees

Those are the basics and mercifully brief (I hope). My undergrad was in psychology and post-bac courses preparing for med school (biology, chem, physics, etc) which are conveniently all of the pre-req's for the neuroscience Ph.D. program I'll be applying to this year. Feel free to ask any other questions.

Someone told me that once you get an interview you have a very strong of getting in. You have good stats. I'm surprised you had it rough.

 

[Circadian Squid]

Someone told me that once you get an interview you have a very strong of getting in. You have good stats. I'm surprised you had it rough.

I appreciate that. My application was really late getting in, which definitely didn't help my chances. I wanted adequate time to self-study for the MCAT (using the 3-month SDN study plan you can find on the board) and took it August 20th. Needless to say this put me well in the back of the applicant-pool-line by submitting everything on October 15.

I'm actually pretty confident in my chances this year (at least at my local university and Michigan State given the previous interview and wait-list) if I were to apply. The larger issue is the time-frame, cost and social unpredictability inherent in a medical education and practice. It was an intensely difficult decision, but I'm confident it was the right one for my particular circumstances. An interesting result is grad school not accepting the MCAT as a substitute for the GRE . . . so I'm currently studying for that exam which I'll be taking in November. Compared to the MCAT studies, this feels like a delicate massage (at least so far).

 

[theseeker4]

Last admission cycle I applied to 15 programs, interviewed at Michigan State and my local medical school, was placed on the alternate-list at both programs and eventually both classes filled and I was out of luck.

Since that time I met a girl, got engaged, got married and we just got an offer accepted on a house. Unexpected, but the best thing that has ever happened to me. I'm a non-traditional applicant at 27 years of age and after doing the finances and a realistic time-frame for our plans to start a family within the next 2-3 years, a medical education just isn't in the cards.

I've decided to pursue a Ph.D. in neuroscience in place of the M.D. My initial ambition was to have a career in academic medicine (heading towards neurology); devoting (ideally) 50% of my practice to research and teaching and the other 50% to patient care each week. With the Ph.D. I'm sacrificing the patient care and extensive knowledge gained in medical school but also avoiding the ~$250,000 in medical school debt over 4 years (my local Ph.D. program waives tuition completely and pays a $26,000 yearly stipend), the uncertainty of which state I'll be dragging my wife to for med school, then residency, then fellowship in addition to a more "conventional" weekly schedule with a Ph.D. versus M.D.

I'm confident this is the correct decision for me and my future family. I was just curious if any other SDN pre-meds have found themselves contemplating the cost-benefit scenario that I have just recently gone through; weighing the personal, financial and psychosocial pitfalls and pleasures of medical school and how you came out of the other side?

I went through a somewhat similar scenario. I took my pre-med pre-reqs in 2007-2008, and met my wife in 2008. After completing the classes, I took a full time job intending to then apply to medical school the next cycle. I then got engaged, we bought a house, planned a wedding, etc. and I didn't do anything else to apply to medical school. My job required me to work toward a BS degree (have a BA) so I started taking those classes (to the detriment of my GPA, damn calc II and III), we got married and found out she was pregnant. Before we even got married we had talked and basically decided I would complete a BS in chemistry and then pursue either a PhD or a MBA, and I had basically resigned myself to not attending medical school.

My son's birth involved my wife developing preeclampsia, being admitted for the delivery at 32 weeks and again postpartum for complications, and our son staying in the NICU for over a month. The entire situation with her pregnancy and his birth is what spurred me to renew my drive to become a doctor. I ended up re-taking the MCAT while our son was still in the NICU, and applied this cycle.

Life has a funny way of changing on you, altering your best-laid plans. There is no right or wrong course, and sometimes a major, or even minor event can completely rearrange your plans and expectations. It is much better for you and your wife to be on the same page for this decision than for you to be pulling in opposite directions. My wife is the one who urged me to apply to medical school, despite the sacrifices we will have to make, but perusing the non-traditional forum on here shows many individuals whose career goals contradict their SO's desires. Good luck, and know that your plans may change again to bring you back to the MD route.

 

[Chrome19]

I appreciate that. My application was really late getting in, which definitely didn't help my chances. I wanted adequate time to self-study for the MCAT (using the 3-month SDN study plan you can find on the board) and took it August 20th. Needless to say this put me well in the back of the applicant-pool-line by submitting everything on October 15..

I just turned in my AMCAS yesterday with a 3.87 and 33 MCAT. I'm hoping it won't hold me back. I also have strong interests in academic medicine and research.

 

[Circadian Squid]

I went through a somewhat similar scenario. I took my pre-med pre-reqs in 2007-2008, and met my wife in 2008. After completing the classes, I took a full time job intending to then apply to medical school the next cycle. I then got engaged, we bought a house, planned a wedding, etc. and I didn't do anything else to apply to medical school. My job required me to work toward a BS degree (have a BA) so I started taking those classes (to the detriment of my GPA, damn calc II and III), we got married and found out she was pregnant. Before we even got married we had talked and basically decided I would complete a BS in chemistry and then pursue either a PhD or a MBA, and I had basically resigned myself to not attending medical school.

My son's birth involved my wife developing preeclampsia, being admitted for the delivery at 32 weeks and again postpartum for complications, and our son staying in the NICU for over a month. The entire situation with her pregnancy and his birth is what spurred me to renew my drive to become a doctor. I ended up re-taking the MCAT while our son was still in the NICU, and applied this cycle.

Life has a funny way of changing on you, altering your best-laid plans. There is no right or wrong course, and sometimes a major, or even minor event can completely rearrange your plans and expectations. It is much better for you and your wife to be on the same page for this decision than for you to be pulling in opposite directions. My wife is the one who urged me to apply to medical school, despite the sacrifices we will have to make, but perusing the non-traditional forum on here shows many individuals whose career goals contradict their SO's desires. Good luck, and know that your plans may change again to bring you back to the MD route.

That's a great story and journey. I hope your wife's situation with the preeclampsia went smoothly and she's doing just fine.

My wife is actually an R.N. and the wellness-director for a local senior-assisted living center. She loves her residents and her job. She knew what she was getting into when we first met (my med school plans) and was very supportive. We're both 27 (actually we have the exact same birthday: December 05, 1983 . . . I'm 14 hours older than she is) and with med school, residency and beyond we would "realistically" be looking at starting to try for children around age 35 or so with her paying the mortgage and all of our bills 100% while I was in school. This is assuming that she doesn't get sick or injured during this time . . . or else we'd really be in trouble.

Anyway, a recurring theme of my education has been the ability to keep an open mind to new opportunities. An M.D. may indeed still be in my future, but it's not the logical path for me right now given my priorities. Thanks again for sharing. Have you heard from any programs that you've applied to this cycle (secondaries, interviews, etc?)

 

[Circadian Squid]

I just turned in my AMCAS yesterday with a 3.87 and 33 MCAT. I'm hoping it won't hold me back. I also have strong interests in academic medicine and research.

Great stats and congrats (Dr. Seuss-ish I just realized).

What programs are you applying to? Without knowing your shadowing/volunteer/research background I'd wager on those numbers alone that you would get 2-3 or more interviews. Exciting times.

Applying late isn't the worst thing in the world. Better to do things properly and thoroughly than be the first applicant in the pool (in my opinion). My two cents: research the secondary application essay prompts for all of the programs you're applying to and work to complete ALL of them before you hear back from each school. This way you can turn around your secondary within ~ 1 week of receiving it. This will show them 1) you're interested in their program, and 2) it will help get your materials to them without a lengthy delay for them to look it over and see if they want to have a face-to-face with ya.

 

[Chrome19]

Great stats and congrats (Dr. Seuss-ish I just realized).

What programs are you applying to? Without knowing your shadowing/volunteer/research background I'd wager on those numbers alone that you would get 2-3 or more interviews. Exciting times.

Applying late isn't the worst thing in the world. Better to do things properly and thoroughly than be the first applicant in the pool (in my opinion). My two cents: research the secondary application essay prompts for all of the programs you're applying to and work to complete ALL of them before you hear back from each school. This way you can turn around your secondary within ~ 1 week of receiving it. This will show them 1) you're interested in their program, and 2) it will help get your materials to them without a lengthy delay for them to look it over and see if they want to have a face-to-face with ya.

Great. So far I'm really interested in:

Harvard, Yale, Hopkins, U.Va, Baylor, Penn State, Jefferson, Howard, and Eastern Virginia MS (just added). I have a feeling Howard and EVMS will reject me.

I have minor medically-related volunteer experience, but lots of non-medical related volunteer work, lots of research with abstracts, a short talk at a prestigious meeting (although only research-heavy schools will know the impact), and a paper I just started writing where I'll be first author, leadership, and expecting strong letters of recommendation. That's about it.

I spent a month on my AMCAS, mostly with editing and revising my personal statement ad nauseam. I don't know what will happen, but most people are telling me my chances are low due to my late application.

 

[theseeker4]

That's a great story and journey. I hope your wife's situation with the preeclampsia went smoothly and she's doing just fine.

My wife is actually an R.N. and the wellness-director for a local senior-assisted living center. She loves her residents and her job. She knew what she was getting into when we first met (my med school plans) and was very supportive. We're both 27 (actually we have the exact same birthday: December 05, 1983 . . . I'm 14 hours older than she is) and with med school, residency and beyond we would "realistically" be looking at starting to try for children around age 35 or so with her paying the mortgage and all of our bills 100% while I was in school. This is assuming that she doesn't get sick or injured during this time . . . or else we'd really be in trouble.

Anyway, a recurring theme of my education has been the ability to keep an open mind to new opportunities. An M.D. may indeed still be in my future, but it's not the logical path for me right now given my priorities. Thanks again for sharing. Have you heard from any programs that you've applied to this cycle (secondaries, interviews, etc?)

I have actually been accepted already, EDP, at Wayne State. I applied there only, since I didn't expect to get in this cycle and it is my first choice. The school is within a 30 minute drive from our house, so we won't have to worry about trying to move until residency (and hopefully not even then, but we will cross that bridge when we get there). Given the school's estimated cost of attendance, with loans everything is luckily very doable for us.

 

[Circadian Squid]

Great. So far I'm really interested in:

Harvard, Yale, Hopkins, U.Va, Baylor, Penn State, Jefferson, Howard, and Eastern Virginia MS (just added). I have a feeling Howard and EVMS will reject me.

I have minor medically-related volunteer experience, but lots of non-medical related volunteer work, lots of research with abstracts, a short talk at a prestigious meeting (although only research-heavy schools will know the impact), and a paper I just started writing where I'll be first author, leadership, and expecting strong letters of recommendation. That's about it.

I spent a month on my AMCAS, mostly with editing and revising my personal statement ad nauseam. I don't know what will happen, but most people are telling me my chances are low due to my late application.

After looking over your additional thread, I would tend to side with those who recommend applying to a handful (2-5 additional) of programs that may be less prestigious / less competitive for this cycle. Your numbers are solid, but you'll be up against 40+ MCAT's from in-state students who may be unrepresented in medicine and quite impressive backgrounds in clinical exposure, research, etc. I was very impressed at the caliber of applicants last year and the extreme benefit of in-state status versus applying as a non resident.

It is more $$$ to apply more broadly, but it just may be the difference in an acceptance or having to go through this very draining process of waiting, expectation, disappointment and all of the rest next year. You need to go with your gut, but this is my opinion given my experiences last cycle.

 

[Circadian Squid]

I have actually been accepted already, EDP, at Wayne State. I applied there only, since I didn't expect to get in this cycle and it is my first choice. The school is within a 30 minute drive from our house, so we won't have to worry about trying to move until residency (and hopefully not even then, but we will cross that bridge when we get there). Given the school's estimated cost of attendance, with loans everything is luckily very doable for us.

A huge congratulations is in order! That's amazing the EDP worked out for you. Nothing is worse than the continuous uncertainty of an application cycle; in my experience. Best of luck with your studies and future career!

 

[Starlightembers]

Congrats on the marriage, OP, and I wish you two all the luck in the future. I'm also glad that you've found a career that you feel best works with your passions and goals, too.

I'm also interested in academic medicine and plan to apply (and hope to gain acceptance into) a combined MD/PhD program (PhD in Health Policy or Public Policy, actually - and yes, there are schools that allow this), dual degree programs that take around seven years and result in one getting both. Due to this, my financial concerns will be considerably lower than those going the MD-only route, as tuition is waived (including the medical school part) and a stipend provided.

Once again, I wish you all the luck and happiness.

 

[Evergrey]

If you think this is right for you, go for it. Make sure you won't regret it though! Both are great careers, but they are very different careers, as well.

 

[Gut Shot]

I'm confident this is the correct decision for me and my future family. I was just curious if any other SDN pre-meds have found themselves contemplating the cost-benefit scenario that I have just recently gone through; weighing the personal, financial and psychosocial pitfalls and pleasures of medical school and how you came out of the other side?

Yeah, I started my PhD with aspirations of becoming a scientist. The financial equation didn't look too bad: tuition waiver + stipend - beer money = easy living. Problems arose when I realized that the life of a modern PhD scientist is less about science and more about chasing $$$. The pay line for NIH grants is currently around 6%. That's awful. After X years of earning chicken feed in grad school, I could look forward to Y years of earning an extra scoop of chicken feed as a post-doc, followed by several decades of writing grants that generally won't get funded. And that was one of the better scenarios.

So I went to medical school. Yes, it was an expensive and time consuming pain in the rump, but I have a skill set that allows me to dictate my own success outside of the grant money rat race.

As for my graduate student colleagues, a buddy of mine (PhD in neuroscience, BTW) just started his 10th year of postdoctoral work. That's right, 10th year. On the other hand, another friend got tenure at a respected university and has had a productive and happy research life. Things can go either way.

Sorry if my take is somewhat depressing; a PhD might ultimately be the best choice, and you won't know until you try. But you may forever wonder what might have been if you held out for one more application cycle. Oh well, water under the bridge, right?

 

[1TB4RKSB4CK]

It looks like research would best suit your interests. You did almost 5 years of research and a lot of applicants haven't even got a semester in. I think you'd enjoy the PhD track more as you are inclined to have a lot opportunities that cater to your interest. Good Luck, I think you made the right choice.

 

[Brachyury]

Last admission cycle I applied to 15 programs, interviewed at Michigan State and my local medical school, was placed on the alternate-list at both programs and eventually both classes filled and I was out of luck.

Since that time I met a girl, got engaged, got married and we just got an offer accepted on a house. Unexpected, but the best thing that has ever happened to me. I'm a non-traditional applicant at 27 years of age and after doing the finances and a realistic time-frame for our plans to start a family within the next 2-3 years, a medical education just isn't in the cards.

I've decided to pursue a Ph.D. in neuroscience in place of the M.D. My initial ambition was to have a career in academic medicine (heading towards neurology); devoting (ideally) 50% of my practice to research and teaching and the other 50% to patient care each week. With the Ph.D. I'm sacrificing the patient care and extensive knowledge gained in medical school but also avoiding the ~$250,000 in medical school debt over 4 years (my local Ph.D. program waives tuition completely and pays a $26,000 yearly stipend), the uncertainty of which state I'll be dragging my wife to for med school, then residency, then fellowship in addition to a more "conventional" weekly schedule with a Ph.D. versus M.D.

I'm confident this is the correct decision for me and my future family. I was just curious if any other SDN pre-meds have found themselves contemplating the cost-benefit scenario that I have just recently gone through; weighing the personal, financial and psychosocial pitfalls and pleasures of medical school and how you came out of the other side?

Early in undergrad, I thought I just wanted to get a Ph.D. and have a research career. However, every Ph.D. I met/worked with told me to get an M.D. because in their experiences, trying to be successful either in academics (i.e. becoming a PI) or biotech (i.e. not working 60 hours a week; moving from start-up to start-up) was too difficult, and in academics, most of the Ph.D.s were struggling to stay financially stable. One of my old PI's had a saying along the lines of "they say you should only go to med school if you can't see yourself doing anything else, but I truly believe you should only get a Ph.D. if you absolutely cannot see yourself doing medicine"

If you are still interested in medicine, it's worth fixing your application and applying again, otherwise, you might be plagued by what might have happened if don't. BTW, when I started med school a few years ago, I had classmates who were in their late 30's, so 27 is not old by any means

Good luck

 

[bucks2010]

OP it sounds like your main motivation for going to graduate school is that you want to start a family.

Why not go to medical school and start a family before/during residency?

 

[notbobtrustme]

I've been on the PhD circuit. I've been on the that side, so I can share my experiences and why I decided to go to medical school.

First off, your money equation is incomplete. You may get free tuition + stipend, but you are underestimating how long your training will be. Secondly, tuition is not exactly free since you usually have to pay between 1200 and 1600 at most schools to cover things like insurance, gym, and laboratory fees. Some programs waive this, so it depends on what specific school you go to. Most stipends are 24,000 to 27,000; I've seen some go to 30k, but that's pretty rare even today. My last paycheck was 1900 after all deductions and that was from a 27,000/year stipend. The thing is that when you are done with your PhD, you still have to train as a post-doc and those are notoriously low-paying with the beginning NIH salary at 37k or so and going up only a few percentage points each year. On top of that, you are no longer a student but staff or faculty, which means you lose far more money to things like 401k, taxes and ****. In addition, your student loans are no longer deferred, meaning you are responsible for paying them. In our department, post-docs complain, rather loudly, that they take home the same amount of money as they made as a graduate student. You will probably train here for at least 2 years but it's becoming far more common to train 4+ years in order to land that first faculty job. The average age of first time tenure track faculty is something like 43, all the while you are literally working 80+ hours a week in order to stay in the rat race earning less than minimum wage when calculated on the hourly basis. With NIH funding the way it is right now, only a very small percentage of grants are funding (<5%). Without funding, you can never become tenured.

The competition to become a tenure tracked faculty is intense. If you think medical school is tough to get into, getting a tenure tracked faculty position is probably 100 times harder. This is not an exaggeration. Before I left my program, we were involved in looking for a new cell biology/immunologist to add to our department. The youngest candidate was 39 years old, had about 25 first author papers published mostly in Journal of Immunology/Infection and Immunity but had a few that went into Nature Microbiology. He didn't get the job but he was at least interviewed. The recruitment team shifted through 250+ applicants for this single position. The entire process boiled down to this, which again is not an exaggeration. They took everyone with less than 20 publications and ignored their application. Then, they ranked the applicants in terms of citations and impact factor. This narrowed the field down to around 15. After this, they simply flipped coins, not an exaggeration, to invite half down for interviews. And this is a very prestigious university. A quick google search will show that the competition is absolutely fierce. It basically comes down to luck at this point because you need to have a good project that is going somewhere, generate good data, come from a good pedigree and then hope enough people give a **** about it to have it published in a good journal. Yes, where your PI did his research is massively important. If he comes from a line of prestigious researchers (eg Nobel laureates, National Academy of Scientists, big shot in the field), your chances are that much better. You can take two identical people and if one comes from a Nobel line, that person will have all the offers compared to the one that doesn't. If you've never been involved in research before, each step is basically luck. It's extremely difficult to know the state of a project without spending 3-6 months on it, it's even harder to generate good data and then getting a single paper out is a mammoth accomplishment. Even if you do everything right, you probably will toil as a post-doc for a long time because you need to build a huge repertoire of papers behind you before any school will give you a shot at the tenure track.

Finally, if you ever do become tenure track, your workload only increases. You need to win enough grants and publish enough papers to actually get that tenure. This means more 80+ hour work weeks while trying to get your system to work, get post-docs, get data, publish, write, etc etc etc. You end up working more than a doctor unless you hit it big time, which is probably equivalent to winning the lottery IMO. In our Micro/Immuno department, I can think of only one PI who actually has a decent work/life balance; the rest are here 6-6, Monday through Saturday. And even with that schedule, a few PIs are going into the private sector because they can't take this crap anymore.

Bottom line, becoming an MD is actually easier than becoming a PI. You will end up working less, earn more money and do some actual good at the same time. Most research is f'ing garbage which is only attacking the edges of human health. There's probably only one decent project in our entire department that actually has translational potential. The rest is extremely basic science that happens to focus on human pathogens. The thing about the MD is that it's front-loaded. Once you get past the training and become a full-fledged doctor will full practice rights, it becomes markedly easier. In contrast, PhDs are back-loaded. It looks easy on paper, easy to get into but once you are in, you realize what exactly you've gotten yourself into. Not even joking, getting into an extremely prestigious graduate program is 10x easier than getting into a "crappy" medical school. That's because the total number of applicants is extremely low. Your application is fairly straightforward; good LORs, good grades, good test scores and you can get in literally anywhere. I only applied to 3 graduate programs (UofC, NW, UIC) and got into all 3 fairly easily. Of all applicants, about 60% get interviews and unless you completely muck up the interview, you are practically guaranteed a spot.

 

[45408]

OP it sounds like your main motivation for going to graduate school is that you want to start a family.

Why not go to medical school and start a family before/during residency?

Easier said than done.

 

[Porfirio]

I've been on the PhD circuit. I've been on the that side, so I can share my experiences and why I decided to go to medical school.

First off, your money equation is incomplete. You may get free tuition + stipend, but you are underestimating how long your training will be. Secondly, tuition is not exactly free since you usually have to pay between 1200 and 1600 at most schools to cover things like insurance, gym, and laboratory fees. Some programs waive this, so it depends on what specific school you go to. Most stipends are 24,000 to 27,000; I've seen some go to 30k, but that's pretty rare even today. My last paycheck was 1900 after all deductions and that was from a 27,000/year stipend. The thing is that when you are done with your PhD, you still have to train as a post-doc and those are notoriously low-paying with the beginning NIH salary at 37k or so and going up only a few percentage points each year. On top of that, you are no longer a student but staff or faculty, which means you lose far more money to things like 401k, taxes and ****. In addition, your student loans are no longer deferred, meaning you are responsible for paying them. In our department, post-docs complain, rather loudly, that they take home the same amount of money as they made as a graduate student. You will probably train here for at least 2 years but it's becoming far more common to train 4+ years in order to land that first faculty job. The average age of first time tenure track faculty is something like 43, all the while you are literally working 80+ hours a week in order to stay in the rat race earning less than minimum wage when calculated on the hourly basis. With NIH funding the way it is right now, only a very small percentage of grants are funding (<5%). Without funding, you can never become tenured.

The competition to become a tenure tracked faculty is intense. If you think medical school is tough to get into, getting a tenure tracked faculty position is probably 100 times harder. This is not an exaggeration. Before I left my program, we were involved in looking for a new cell biology/immunologist to add to our department. The youngest candidate was 39 years old, had about 25 first author papers published mostly in Journal of Immunology/Infection and Immunity but had a few that went into Nature Microbiology. He didn't get the job but he was at least interviewed. The recruitment team shifted through 250+ applicants for this single position. The entire process boiled down to this, which again is not an exaggeration. They took everyone with less than 20 publications and ignored their application. Then, they ranked the applicants in terms of citations and impact factor. This narrowed the field down to around 15. After this, they simply flipped coins, not an exaggeration, to invite half down for interviews. And this is a very prestigious university. A quick google search will show that the competition is absolutely fierce. It basically comes down to luck at this point because you need to have a good project that is going somewhere, generate good data, come from a good pedigree and then hope enough people give a **** about it to have it published in a good journal. Yes, where your PI did his research is massively important. If he comes from a line of prestigious researchers (eg Nobel laureates, National Academy of Scientists, big shot in the field), your chances are that much better. You can take two identical people and if one comes from a Nobel line, that person will have all the offers compared to the one that doesn't. If you've never been involved in research before, each step is basically luck. It's extremely difficult to know the state of a project without spending 3-6 months on it, it's even harder to generate good data and then getting a single paper out is a mammoth accomplishment. Even if you do everything right, you probably will toil as a post-doc for a long time because you need to build a huge repertoire of papers behind you before any school will give you a shot at the tenure track.

Finally, if you ever do become tenure track, your workload only increases. You need to win enough grants and publish enough papers to actually get that tenure. This means more 80+ hour work weeks while trying to get your system to work, get post-docs, get data, publish, write, etc etc etc. You end up working more than a doctor unless you hit it big time, which is probably equivalent to winning the lottery IMO. In our Micro/Immuno department, I can think of only one PI who actually has a decent work/life balance; the rest are here 6-6, Monday through Saturday. And even with that schedule, a few PIs are going into the private sector because they can't take this crap anymore.

Bottom line, becoming an MD is actually easier than becoming a PI. You will end up working less, earn more money and do some actual good at the same time. Most research is f'ing garbage which is only attacking the edges of human health. There's probably only one decent project in our entire department that actually has translational potential. The rest is extremely basic science that happens to focus on human pathogens. The thing about the MD is that it's front-loaded. Once you get past the training and become a full-fledged doctor will full practice rights, it becomes markedly easier. In contrast, PhDs are back-loaded. It looks easy on paper, easy to get into but once you are in, you realize what exactly you've gotten yourself into. Not even joking, getting into an extremely prestigious graduate program is 10x easier than getting into a "crappy" medical school. That's because the total number of applicants is extremely low. Your application is fairly straightforward; good LORs, good grades, good test scores and you can get in literally anywhere. I only applied to 3 graduate programs (UofC, NW, UIC) and got into all 3 fairly easily. Of all applicants, about 60% get interviews and unless you completely muck up the interview, you are practically guaranteed a spot.

It is different for industry. *past Post-Doc* More money, but you get treated more like a tool, plus industry is even more screwed up than academic for doing "correct" science.

 

[notbobtrustme]

It is different for industry. *past Post-Doc* More money, but you get treated more like a tool, plus industry is even more screwed up than academic for doing "correct" science.

yea, plus the major players in industry are contracting, not expanding. Merck just shutdown 500 researchers, Abbott labs closed down their cancer research center, Pfizer announced layoffs. As a whole, the biotech industry is contracting except in a few hot spots. Unless you are mobile, you can expect pretty much the same story.

Plus, the competition for industry jobs is just as fierce. Remember, we train about 20,000 PhDs each year, but I'd say less than half as many jobs open up that require that level of training.

No less than Nature has commented on the situation.

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110420/full/472276a.html
http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110420/full/472261a.html
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v472/n7343/full/472259b.html

 

[Circadian Squid]

yea, plus the major players in industry are contracting, not expanding. Merck just shutdown 500 researchers, Abbott labs closed down their cancer research center, Pfizer announced layoffs. As a whole, the biotech industry is contracting except in a few hot spots. Unless you are mobile, you can expect pretty much the same story.

Plus, the competition for industry jobs is just as fierce. Remember, we train about 20,000 PhDs each year, but I'd say less than half as many jobs open up that require that level of training.

No less than Nature has commented on the situation.

http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110420/full/472276a.html
http://www.nature.com/news/2011/110420/full/472261a.html
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v472/n7343/full/472259b.html

I sincerely appreciate all of your time and input on this situation. Having worked with one PI who is a PhD and the other who is an MD / PhD it was a topic of conversation that I had multiple times and had the fortune to observe first-hand. Struggling for grant money can be daunting and the current prospects for NIH funding and the whole institution of scientific research moving forward (politics and ethics of biological research in general) is uncertain to put it mildly.

My thought process at this stage is pursuing the PhD ticks the most boxes in the "benefit" section of the cost/benefit analysis for me professionally, academically, financially and psychologically at this time. The beauty of medicine is that (with limits) there isn't a firm time-limit on when individuals can be admitted for a medical education. My MD/PhD PI earned his PhD in zoology and decided on med school after seeing the majority of his classmates fail to land positions at multiple universities. He got his MD from Harvard and struck his ideal balance between research and patient care. However, this took him over 13 years post-PhD and luckily he did not have a wife or any social commitments at this time and met his wife in med school.

If I can ultimately pull from 40-60K per year in research and teaching I would be a happy boy. My wife pulls 60K per year and those two salaries combined would allow us plenty for paying off loans, credit cards, personal bills (cell phone, etc), the mortgage while enabling saving for future retirement as well. Although the vast exception to the rule (as I've learned), my PhD PI who has made his career in learning and memory makes 200K per year. Again, a huge exception, but these things can happen if your passion lines up with the desired field of the era and you're putting out insights and data that NIH and others find beneficial. Ultimately I'm excited with this decision and interested to see where things end up 4-5 years down the road.

 

[Gut Shot]

Ultimately I'm excited with this decision and interested to see where things end up 4-5 years down the road.

It will only take you about 3 to realize that you've completely screwed yourself.

 

[Circadian Squid]

As for my graduate student colleagues, a buddy of mine (PhD in neuroscience, BTW) just started his 10th year of postdoctoral work. That's right, 10th year. On the other hand, another friend got tenure at a respected university and has had a productive and happy research life. Things can go either way.

Sorry if my take is somewhat depressing; a PhD might ultimately be the best choice, and you won't know until you try. But you may forever wonder what might have been if you held out for one more application cycle. Oh well, water under the bridge, right?

As you mentioned earlier, I may be screwing myself or it may work out for the best. Unless I go down that road I have no objective basis to form an opinion.

If I find life miserable as a post-doc, I'm fairly certain a PhD in neuroscience won't come across as a blemish on my application if I decide to reapply to medical school. Being 31 years old at this time will definitely raise an eyebrow, but so be it.

I was also curious what field of medicine you decided to go into? With your background in research, are you practicing within an academic university? Private practice? (etc).

 

[TBT2]

I did. And for that exact reason I am 1yr into a Neuroscience PhD program...and subsequently hating every minute of it. Have you had a lot of research experience? Have you looked into the realities of the job possibilities when you're done? Are you interested in academia or industry? Almost all academia jobs now require at least 1 post-doc (another 3+) years after a 5-7yr PhD. Plus because of tenure, academia jobs can be very difficult to get. For sure the fact that they support you through the whole process is nice but can be a mixed bag. I do love that I get my tuition and healthcare completely covered plus a pretty decent monthly stipend. I also spend 50+ hrs/week in my lab plus take 9 credits of very tough classes. It is not an easy road and is immensely different then going to medical school.

There are programs for debt forgiveness for med school (military service, rural or urban service) that can also be an option if you're worried about the cost. You will also make quite a bit more money as a MD then PhD generally as well.

All I can say is research carefully..most programs also heavily weight previous research experience as part of your resume.

Hopefully this helps. And for the conclusion of my story: I just wasted several years that I could have put into pursuing MD. I am quitting my PhD at the end of this semester and applying to med schools next year. I would stick it out, but I've never been so unhappy and its not worth it personally to waste another 5years.

P.S. I am also a nontrad and married. My husband is just finishing up his PhD and wants to plan on having kids in a few years...I am opting to apply anyways. We'll make it work and I would rather put all my time and energies into pursuing what I truly have a passion for. So I suppose I am your "cautionary tale." Good luck with your decision and congrats on relationship and house.

 

[Gut Shot]

As you mentioned earlier, I may be screwing myself or it may work out for the best. Unless I go down that road I have no objective basis to form an opinion.

Well, the fact that you cared enough about medical school to apply once, and seem to have partially rationalized a PhD based on inertia, does not bode favorably. IMHO.

If I find life miserable as a post-doc, I'm fairly certain a PhD in neuroscience won't come across as a blemish on my application if I decide to reapply to medical school. Being 31 years old at this time will definitely raise an eyebrow, but so be it.

My prediction: about 3 years from now you will be mired in a lab, watching your experiments fail, taking home a pittance each month, feeling your life erode while graduation day never seems to get any closer. Alas, you won't be able to simply reapply to medical school should you find yourself in a miserable situation. You will have two options: finish or drop out.

Finishing will generally take 5-7 years, which (correct me if I am wrong) would put you at about 34 years of age. Say you get lucky and segue straight into an MD program (although many will not accept applications from current grad students). That has you finishing at 38 with a pile of debt. Then comes residency and possibly fellowship. All of a sudden you're 44 and starting your first real job.

Or you can drop out. Some people recover from this move, but it isn't exactly a gold star on your application. Either way, you will probably look back and wish you had simply reapplied to med school, rather than open this can of worms.

If you are dead set on research (which you seem to be) then by all means, go for it. But don't go in thinking you will be able to back out easily, or that the financial benefits will be as substantial as you anticipate.

I was also curious what field of medicine you decided to go into? With your background in research, are you practicing within an academic university? Private practice? (etc).

I am a pathologist. My job is unusual, a quasi-private practice with some academic responsibilities. A rare find, but it suits me.

 

[Circadian Squid]

Well, the fact that you cared enough about medical school to apply once, and seem to have partially rationalized a PhD based on inertia, does not bode favorably. IMHO.



My prediction: about 3 years from now you will be mired in a lab, watching your experiments fail, taking home a pittance each month, feeling your life erode while graduation day never seems to get any closer. Alas, you won't be able to simply reapply to medical school should you find yourself in a miserable situation. You will have two options: finish or drop out.

Finishing will generally take 5-7 years, which (correct me if I am wrong) would put you at about 34 years of age. Say you get lucky and segue straight into an MD program (although many will not accept applications from current grad students). That has you finishing at 38 with a pile of debt. Then comes residency and possibly fellowship. All of a sudden you're 44 and starting your first real job.

Or you can drop out. Some people recover from this move, but it isn't exactly a gold star on your application. Either way, you will probably look back and wish you had simply reapplied to med school, rather than open this can of worms.

If you are dead set on research (which you seem to be) then by all means, go for it. But don't go in thinking you will be able to back out easily, or that the financial benefits will be as substantial as you anticipate.



I am a pathologist. My job is unusual, a quasi-private practice with some academic responsibilities. A rare find, but it suits me.

As always, I sincerely appreciate the feedback. Without knowing the particulars of my background, this decision isn't they plan-B alternative. I have a combined decade of research experience in psychology, circadian biology and neurobiology and I have a deep-rooted passion for research. This was my motivation for academic medicine. My biggest reservation about foregoing an MD was the lack of consistent patient interaction and the knowledge gained from medical school. The experiences I gained shadowing and observing the patient-doctor relationship are of the most honest and open that I have witnessed in person; all-be-it from the position of a fly on the wall.

Again to reiterate, this isn't a matter of not wanting to stick it out for another application cycle. I drafted my application this year and actually submitted it through AMCAS prior to my decision to pursue a PhD. I feel that I would have an excellent chance at 2 programs this year; but my current desires and circumstances make 4 years of no income, considerable debt after 4 years, unpredictable living situations and the sacrificing of time with my wife less desirable than the alternative.

I greatly appreciate your insights as one who has been there and done that. Ultimately academia is where my passion is, and my desire is to conduct translational and multi/interdisciplinary research that ideally would enable me to work with patient populations in lieu of isolated years in a laboratory in addition to clinicians and researchers from various disciplines. This is the environment that I am accustomed to with my research in circadian rhythms and it's simply incredible.

The politics of medicine, science and research funding are unfortunate at the moment, but I feel honored to be in the position of obtaining an advanced degree in any aspect of science or medicine. I have plenty of friends where their job is "a job" and most every member on this board hopefully feels that their passions are being met, regardless of the frustrations we feel while navigating and hopping through one hoop after the next.

 

[Circadian Squid]

I did. And for that exact reason I am 1yr into a Neuroscience PhD program...and subsequently hating every minute of it. Have you had a lot of research experience? Have you looked into the realities of the job possibilities when you're done? Are you interested in academia or industry? Almost all academia jobs now require at least 1 post-doc (another 3+) years after a 5-7yr PhD. Plus because of tenure, academia jobs can be very difficult to get. For sure the fact that they support you through the whole process is nice but can be a mixed bag. I do love that I get my tuition and healthcare completely covered plus a pretty decent monthly stipend. I also spend 50+ hrs/week in my lab plus take 9 credits of very tough classes. It is not an easy road and is immensely different then going to medical school.

There are programs for debt forgiveness for med school (military service, rural or urban service) that can also be an option if you're worried about the cost. You will also make quite a bit more money as a MD then PhD generally as well.

All I can say is research carefully..most programs also heavily weight previous research experience as part of your resume.

Hopefully this helps. And for the conclusion of my story: I just wasted several years that I could have put into pursuing MD. I am quitting my PhD at the end of this semester and applying to med schools next year. I would stick it out, but I've never been so unhappy and its not worth it personally to waste another 5years.

P.S. I am also a nontrad and married. My husband is just finishing up his PhD and wants to plan on having kids in a few years...I am opting to apply anyways. We'll make it work and I would rather put all my time and energies into pursuing what I truly have a passion for. So I suppose I am your "cautionary tale." Good luck with your decision and congrats on relationship and house.

Thanks for the detailed reply. Can I ask why you are/were so unhappy in your current research position? Is it the particular PI or the area of neuroscience research you're currently investigating, or other reasons?

As I mentioned in my previous post I have a combined decade in research (2 years in psychology, 4.5 years in neurobiology and 4.5 years in circadian biology) and that + teaching are very satisfying for me personally. The latter two have been more clinical (not highly "basic") research environments focusing on the neurobiology of behavior; one using rodent models for learning and memory and the other human participants in combination with geneticist collaborators.

 

[TBT2]

Sorry..saw your research experience after I finished posting. I had 4years previous research experience before I applied and had several published papers as first and second author prior to applying but have found actual grad school to be much different then undergrad research. I had really wanted to go MD (as you can still do lots of research as MD plus have the asset of access to a clinical population which is frequently out-of-reach for a PhD without collaboration with MD) but my undergrad PI and several other PhD's really pumped up what research and possible job prospects would be like while concurrently painting the MD profession in a poor light. I also, unfortunately, spoke to several MD's who were fairly burned out in medicine so also recommended the PhD route.

I actually really enjoy my PI and the lab that I am in. I get along with everyone really well. I also enjoy the research area. Actually the whole program/school is absolutely amazing! The professors are all top in their field and very excited/eager to mentor students. The projects are all interesting and diverse and most of the PI's have a lot of money (its a research based university so they must have grants/papers to stay on). What I hate is the slow pace, the days and days and days where everything goes wrong, the frequent dumping of data due to one factor or another, the extreme competitiveness and back-biting in the field, the lack of interaction with patients and that feeling like you made a difference or helped people out (it can take a whole career to make any impact in the basic sciences and really its a small percentage who gets a lucky discovery now and then), the slow plodding pace of research, all the factors out of your control (whether a grant will get funded, whether your research will come up with publishable results, whether you will get scooped by someone else before you get your paper published, whether a rotating student will taint your cultures/data/etc, whether you'll get tenure, whether your job will continue to exist, whether your funding will get cut because all of a sudden everyone is up in arms about stem cell or animal research).

Honestly research is very little about discovery and impacting science/humanity. It is very focused on the rat race of grant acquisition, awards, publishing papers. I also worked as a paramedic during undergrad and I miss the interaction and impact I felt like I had daily with patients. I think my personality is much better suited to working with a diverse range of people on a daily basis, listening to their stories, treating illnesses.

I will still probably do some research as an MD (if I can get in!) because parts of it I love and will miss. But everything I want in regards to my career I can have as an MD...both research and patient contact..the ability to impact lives daily while also working on the tiny tiny chance I can make my small mark in science.

Know that's a long winded story...you really have to make the decision for yourself, I just think that you can have your cake and eat it to as MD (ability to mix clinical with research) and there are plenty loan forgiveness programs. But plenty of people really enjoy grad school and make exciting discoveries and go far in their career. Either way, good luck to you!!!