Life or death quick decision-making

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sebsvenmdc

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Important question! I'm a medical student approaching the residency era. I'm wondering about this fast-paced thinking and acting that can determine the difference between life and death. Is it possible to master reactions/responses to these life-threatening events to:
1) put forward the best possible effort to save patient lives
2) protect oneself by remaining within the level of competency that prevents successful malpractice litigation if death or adverse end-points occur?

In other words, I know that every patient is different and experiences differ, but is it possible to be prepared for these terrifying moments and follow protocols that allow you to respond quickly? Or is there some level of intrinsic genius or talent that is necessary to being able to do this? You see, I'm just not sure as to whether there is some innate skill-set or aspect of intelligence that I have or lack that will be crucial to helping me save lives when they're on the line (and also avoid litigation). If it's a case of learning algorithms really well in these dire situations, then I think I have some protection because it just relies on doing homework and studying.

Does this make sense? I'm just wanting to be very honest with myself and my brain in order to know whether I can competently perform the fast-paced skills or actions that make the life-death difference.
 
Yes, your post makes sense.

It's easy to be overwhelmed at your stage with time-critical decision making.

Your residency will acclimate you to this kinda environment, and your first few years in private practice will hone your ability in this arena even more.

We've all been where you are.

You're gonna be fine.
 
Yes, your post makes sense.

It's easy to be overwhelmed at your stage with time-critical decision making.

Your residency will acclimate you to this kinda environment, and your first few years in private practice will hone your ability in this arena even more.

We've all been where you are.

You're gonna be fine.

Thanks for the response, Jet. So, do the majority of malpractice lawsuits occur because of unneccesary error (not watching vital signs for 5 minute chunks of time and missing life-threatening events) or because of controversy in obscure life-threatening decision making? I guess I'm just wondering how easy it is to protect yourself in the field...if a lot of malpractice can be avoided by sheer vigilance during the supposedly "down time" of operations, I can do that!
 
Thanks for the response, Jet. So, do the majority of malpractice lawsuits occur because of unneccesary error (not watching vital signs for 5 minute chunks of time and missing life-threatening events) or because of controversy in obscure life-threatening decision making? I guess I'm just wondering how easy it is to protect yourself in the field...if a lot of malpractice can be avoided by sheer vigilance during the supposedly "down time" of operations, I can do that!

Malpractice occurs minimally about gross negligence.

Malpractice occurs mostly because of

GREED.

You can be the MOTHER THERESA OF PHYSICIANS

and youre probably still gonna get sued at some point.

Thats why we have malpractice insurance.

Thats why this nation is in dire need of tort reform.

What you need to focus on is taking care of patients like your residency and private practice wisdom taught you.

The rest is outta your control, which is why we have malpractice insurance.

The greedy, ambulance chasing J.D.s are a part of being a doctor that your med school professors don't talk about.
 
Yes, your post makes sense.

It's easy to be overwhelmed at your stage with time-critical decision making.

Your residency will acclimate you to this kinda environment, and your first few years in private practice will hone your ability in this arena even more.

We've all been where you are.

You're gonna be fine.

As another med student like the OP, I appreciate hearing this as well. Thanks jpp.
 
Yes, your post makes sense.

It's easy to be overwhelmed at your stage with time-critical decision making.

Your residency will acclimate you to this kinda environment, and your first few years in private practice will hone your ability in this arena even more.

We've all been where you are.

You're gonna be fine.

I'm sure that the OP just echoed an unspoken question that pops up for many of us as we eagerly wait to begin our training. Responses like this from you veterans, on anesthesia topics far and wide remind me of what I really like about this here community. Thanks, Jet!
 
Crisis management is a learned skill, and one I'm still working on at that, approaching a year post residency.

Jet said it well.

Crisis Management in Anesthesiology by David Gabba is a little old (1993), but it's worth it's weight in gold. In retrospect, I should have recommended it for the guys about to take the boards!
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d.html/ref=mp_s_a_1?qid=1271642589&a=0443089108&sr=8-1
When the STOOL really hits the fan, you have to DO, than think. A couple years ago I had pulseless Vtach suddenly in a "healthy" young crani. I guessed it may be air embolism, had the chest compressions going FAST man, resident pushed a little epi while the nurse set off the ALARM! The surgeons were still looking for saline to flood the field and discussing if he had to come out of pins for a shock while we FIXED the problem. In retrospect I think that they torqued the brainstem. It didn't matter that I was probably wrong, what mattered is that I was doing something about it PDQ, and than saying WTF just happened? BTW, a real precordial thump does work. I've seen it with my own eyes, twice!
 
A piece of advice I received from a resident prior to entering residency myself:

There will always be one resident in the group who panics when shi t hits the fan the first time; Don't be that guy/gal. That reputation will be hard to lose, even if you are no longer that person and become excellent. Take a breath, try as hard as you can, not to lose it and remain calm. If you're the one in charge at the scene, people will look to you for orders. You can always go back to your ABC's of ACLS (that's one algorithm you can learn cold and can always apply).

Don't overburden yourself now with thinking about being sued. As long as you aren't negligent or purposely doing harm, you'll be fine while you're in training. You CAN practice defensive medicine though; Document appropriately and don't shirk any of your duties. Even if you're tired, beat down, not happy, want to go home, make sure you do every last thing in doing right by the patient - You can always ask yourself, "Will somebody ask me why I didn't do such-and-such?" If that's the case - do it. If you're dilligent and conscientious, it'll be difficult to find fault with your actions.
 
Crisis management is a learned skill, and one I'm still working on at that, approaching a year post residency.

Jet said it well.

I've got a case I did less than a year ago, pgg.

Total knee replacement under epidural.

Patient is the father of a surg tech in the OR.

Orthopedist is one of the best in Louisiana when it comes to total joints.

Don't have time to write the story but, thinking about what my buddy told me, I'll provide a cliffhanger:

(case going normal, music playing, ortho dude joking with P.A.)

Jet: "Chase?"

Chase: (looks up from hammering): "Yeah?"

Jet: "I gotta start doing CPR."

Chase: "What?"

Jet: "I gotta start CPR."

Realize I never speak so directly to a surgeon.

I'm all about jokes, comedically imitating co-workers, working hard at making things efficient.

Unless something is wrong.

"I GOTTA START CPR"

made Chase stop what he was doing

and back away from the table.

STORY TOMORROW. 🙂eek🙂
 
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I've got a case I did less than a year ago, pgg.

Total knee replacement under epidural.

Patient is the father of a surg tech in the OR.

Orthopedist is one of the best in Louisiana when it comes to total joints.

Don't have time to write the story but, thinking about what buddy Eric told me, I'll provide a cliffhanger:

(case going normal, music playing, ortho dude joking with P.A.)

Jet: "Chase?"

Chase: (looks up from hammering): "Yeah?"

Jet: "I gotta start doing CPR."

Chase: "What?"

Jet: "I gotta start CPR."

Realize I never speak so directly to a surgeon.

I'm all about jokes, comedically imitating co-workers, working hard at making things efficient.

Unless something is wrong.

"I GOTTA START CPR"

made Chase stop what he was doing

and back away from the table.

STORY TOMORROW. 🙂eek🙂

Lol, that's quite the cliffhanger! Thanks for the insight. I looked over some major cases in my state for malpractice against anesthesiologists. There were major cases for all fields including family med, gen surgery, ophtho, and the full gamut...although I'm still trying to find statistical data regarding prevalence statistics by specialty and average out-of-court settlement. From the cases that I looked at, a COMMON THEME of criticism of the expert witness(es) (read: prosecutor's anesthesiologists) was POOR DOCUMENTATION. Not writing down times when events occurred and documenting post-operatively without indicating the time. Also, extubating prematurely and not intubating rapidly enough (in the case of an aspiration) were other components of malpractice allegations. Also, this is scary, one student(!) was involved in administering the anesthesia to the patient of a particular case!

I'm trying to focus on just becoming a better student, getting ready for residency, etc, but it just seems like these are relevant aspects of the future that we should carefully prepare for!
 
Lol, that's quite the cliffhanger! Thanks for the insight. I looked over some major cases in my state for malpractice against anesthesiologists. There were major cases for all fields including family med, gen surgery, ophtho, and the full gamut...although I'm still trying to find statistical data regarding prevalence statistics by specialty and average out-of-court settlement. From the cases that I looked at, a COMMON THEME of criticism of the expert witness(es) (read: prosecutor's anesthesiologists) was POOR DOCUMENTATION. Not writing down times when events occurred and documenting post-operatively without indicating the time. Also, extubating prematurely and not intubating rapidly enough (in the case of an aspiration) were other components of malpractice allegations. Also, this is scary, one student(!) was involved in administering the anesthesia to the patient of a particular case!

I'm trying to focus on just becoming a better student, getting ready for residency, etc, but it just seems like these are relevant aspects of the future that we should carefully prepare for!
Worry about learning your craft and less about malpractice - paranoia will not serve you or your patient well. Looking at "statistical data regarding prevalence statistics by specialty and average out-of-court settlement" is pretty much a meaningless waste of time. Remember - you can do everything perfectly and still have a bad outcome. Learn/practice the right way to do everything that you do, and worry less about why everyone else is being sued. And for god's sake - don't ever use the expression "my license is on the line". That's a nurse expression only.
 
Every time I see your "It takes a Carter to get a Regan" I get a good chuckle. But the other day the following came to mind:
It takes a Bush to get an Obama.
Regardless of your political thinking, it kinda makes sense.
The question is, what does an Obama get you? A Newt Gingrich? I cringe to think possibly a Palin.
Tuck
 
Every time I see your "It takes a Carter to get a Regan" I get a good chuckle. But the other day the following came to mind:
It takes a Bush to get an Obama.
Regardless of your political thinking, it kinda makes sense.
The question is, what does an Obama get you? A Newt Gingrich? I cringe to think possibly a Palin.
Tuck

I think Jimmy Carter gets on his knees every day and thanks God that he will no longer be THE worst president ever - that honor will now go to Obama.

Palin actually has her place in the Republican Party, but certainly won't be President. The same with Newt, but I would never vote for him for President - he was MY congressman and walked away.
 
Worry about learning your craft and less about malpractice - paranoia will not serve you or your patient well. Looking at "statistical data regarding prevalence statistics by specialty and average out-of-court settlement" is pretty much a meaningless waste of time. Remember - you can do everything perfectly and still have a bad outcome. Learn/practice the right way to do everything that you do, and worry less about why everyone else is being sued. And for god's sake - don't ever use the expression "my license is on the line". That's a nurse expression only.

Yeah, I know that some of my post came across as a neurotic kid, but the thing is, Jwk, I think that thinking about why malpractice exists is not necessarily a waste of time. You're definitely correct in your assertion that sometimes one can do everything right...and yet still be sued; however, from what I've gathered from online reading, one of the main ways that anesthesiology has reduced the mortality risk from 1/5000 to 1/200,000 (think these figures are accurate!) from the 80s-90s to currently was by such an assessment...essentially, the ASA looked at all fatal outcomes and decided on management changes within the OR to prevent such problems. I think it's largely why pulse oximetry is a typical safeguard in the OR these days!
 
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longest CPR ever
 
Bump

MUST KNOW THE ENDING

🙂
 
Bump

MUST KNOW THE ENDING

🙂

Did brief CPR, patient recovered without sequelae because of lifesaving intervention by Jet, good outcome for all.
How close am I?😉
If it was a bad outcome, it should not be detailed on a public forum for legal reasons.
 
Did brief CPR, patient recovered without sequelae because of lifesaving intervention by Jet, good outcome for all.
How close am I?😉
If it was a bad outcome, it should not be detailed on a public forum for legal reasons.

Sure, understood, but even if it is a good outcome, Jet would have told it in dramatic fashion, and we would be awe inspired (or I would be at least).

🙂
 
Sure, understood, but even if it is a good outcome, Jet would have told it in dramatic fashion, and we would be awe inspired (or I would be at least).

🙂

The outcome was interesting....with a future (unwanted) surprise...sorry I havent posted the unfolding story!

The longest CPR ever someone above said....HAHAHAHAHAHA

I'm on call tomorrow so will try and wrap this story up manana.

Jet
 
As some of you recall from the Life Or Death Quick Decision Making thread, I posted an experience of mine that was really, well,

life or death.

Refreshing your memory, patient was a dude having a total knee arthroplasty.

This case was serendipitous from the start since with this particular orthopedist, cases are done almost exclusively under regional anesthesia. To be honest, I can't remember why we elected a general anesthetic for this particular patient. I remember he was extremely obese but in my practice that's not a contraindication for regional. Previous extreme back surgery maybe? Patient refusing regional? Honestly I do not remember. For whatever reason we put the dude to sleep. Which may have saved his life. More on that later.

CRNA Diane and I are doing Chase's (ortho dude) cases today. This general anesthetic kinda ruins our rhythm; normally I've got the patient epiduralized in the holding area 15 minutes before the room is ready. Now, on our third case of six, we've got a general. It's gonna set us back some time but not much....

ASIDE: I'll do whatever I can to make the cases disappear quicker. I figured out long ago it takes about ten minutes from start to finish for the circulator to place a foley. What if I put the foley in in holding after I placed the epidural? Hmmmm....ten minutes saved....times six cases (divided by two, to be honest, male foleys only, not dealing with the geriatric green smoke vaginal counterpart, sorry, I have my limits.)

From a time conservation viewpoint, this general anesthetic *******s me since he's not rolling into the operative suite already with a surgical plane of anesthesia on board. And a foley.

Oh well since in the end, looks like someone above was looking out.

Rooms ready, we roll back.

Uneventful induction.

Surgery proceeds.

I go about my daily tasks...pre ops, in PACU taking care of s h it, blah blah blah.

Pager goes off. I don't hear it, I feel it, since my pager is always on vibrate. That BEEP BEEP BEEP makes me wanna run in a corner somewhere and start rocking back and forth. Hence the vibrate mode.

Glancing down, pager reads

Needed in OR 12.

Thought processes start in my mind. Diane is a seasoned CRNA. Older. She's been doing this gig for twenty years plus.

Diane never calls.

Which means somethings wrong. Remarkable when you're an MD in a supervisory practice how you learn to gauge the severity of the call solely based on which CRNAs you are working with. Diane is in the group that revels "DUDE IF I CALL, THERES SOME S HIT HAPPENING."

Realizing this, I literally walk away from my tasks in the PACU and head for room 12.

Breaching OR 12's door, nothing strikes me as awry, giving me an emotional "whew." Maybe Diane needs to pee I think, walking around the vast tables of orthopedic instruments, careful not to contaminate them, heading for the front of the bed.

"I dunno," Diane says. "Somethings not right. Pressure is down around ninety for the last ten minutes or so. See the graph?"

Diane presses buttons on the monitor, changing the real time hemodynamics to a retrospective graphical display.

"See how he's been one twenty systolic for the entire case? I've bumped him with pressors and he's not responding. Still ninety despite the pressors."

I actively look at the graph. She's right. Ten minutes ago the graph prominently displays a change. Usually not a big deal, but the fact that she's given pressors without a response is a big deal.

Funny, this anesthesia business. How one minute you're thinking about what kinda dinner plans you have and the next minute you are pondering a life or death differential diagnosis.

Back to the serendipity of this case:

With this orthopedist, it's all regional, Dude. With some exceptions. This case was an exception.

I'm in the room when the end tidal CO2 tracing disappears. I glance at the surgical field. The joint is in.

HAD THIS BEEN A REGIONAL, THERE WOULDNT'VE BEEN AN END TIDAL CO2 TO DISAPPEAR.

I grab a stethescope. I hear breath sounds bilaterally. Theres fog in the tube. I cycle the blood pressure cuff. It cycles, giving me the dashes on either side of the slash, no numbers though, then starts to cycle again.

I feel for a carotid pulse.

There isn't one.

Summarizing in my brain for a few seconds before I make a drastic decision, I think: I walk in. Diane, because of her seasoned experience, had already sensed a problem, which in itself raises a red flag. Orthopedic case....hammering...possibility of intravascular emboli...loss of ETC02...no discernible carotid pulse....

I take a deep breath. This is what I get paid for.

"Chase?"

"Yeah?"

"I gotta start CPR."

Chase makes a startled eye contact with me and says

"HUH?"

I reply.

"I gotta start CPR."

Chase's joint is in but he's got work left. Despite this, he backs away from the operative field.

"Give a milligram of epi now!" I say to Diane as I start CPR on patient dude's chest.

"Need some help in here please! Call one of my partners in here right away," I say with a pointed voice to the circulator. She's on the phone in a millisecond. Before I know it, Chad my partner is in the room.

"Whatcha need?" Chad says.

"Total knee. Lost end tidal." Chad sees me doing CPR so he gets the gravity of the situation.

At this point I've been doing CPR for, s h it, I dunno, a cuppla minutes. Diane squirted in the milligram of epi as soon as I called for it, which was, uhhh, a cuppla minutes ago.

I stop CPR and feel for a carotid.

"Gotta pulse!" I exclaim.

"Gonna put in an A line for ya," Chad says, hurriedly acquiring the tools needed for his task.

Chase the orthopedist emerges from the wall.

"Bill, I'm gonna finish, if thats OK," he says.

"Yeah dude," I reply.

This is about as intense as this anesthesia biz gets. We've just experienced a witnessed cardiac arrest during a knee replacement. A team of medical professionals jumped on the emergency quicker than Tiger Woods jumps on a stripper. Now we're tidying up. Chase is closing his operative site. Chad, my partner, deftly places an A line. I'm Trendelenberging the bed so I can place a right IJ TLC. Which I do.

Chase the orthopedist is done. He removes his space suit helmet and pops off his scrubs.

My partner Chad is still in the room, A line placed, ready and willing.

My central line is in.

Patient's hemodynamics are OK at this point.

Theres a chill in the air of OR 12. Everyone is thinking the same thing: Did the patient's brain take a hit?"

No way to tell. Next on the agenda:

Transport to ICU 12.

Done.

Rough case. I didn't sleep well that night.

I was awarded in the morning at 0630 when I walked into the ICU to check on Patient Dude.

"Jesus Christ," the night RN started.

"He awoke about four thirty. Since then he's been unmanageable."

I saunter into ICU 12. My eyes focus on a patient that looks like he should be walking out of Wal Mart with fishing lures just purchased. Certainly not a dude habitating an ICU bed with an endotracheal tube sticking outta his mouth!

"Dude, hows it going?" I ask the patient, the patient that just yesterday had a cardiac arrest during a knee replacement who now lives in the ICU, an ominous detour to say the least.

Patient dude locks on my eyes, unable to speak because of the endotracheal tube,

BUT I KNOW.

I know he's OK.

Despite whats happened, dude is in ICU, intubated, all kinds of monitors on him.

He wants to write, I gather from his hand motions.

Nurse provides paper and pen.

I await as Patient Dude writes on the paper. This act, in of itself, settles me. But theres more joy to come.

Patient Dude writes feverishly on the paper and hands it to me, wide eyed, endotracheal tube sticking out of his mouth.

I read his scribe:

"Doc, my chest hurts! I had knee surgery! Why does my chest hurt?"

I read the scribe. I hang my head and grin. And shake my head. I write back.

"Something from your knee flew into your heart and caused something bad. We handled it. You're OK."

Dude, still smoking the endotracheal tube, read what I wrote.

He scribbled again.

"Thanks, Doc." it said.

"You Da MAN!" I wrote back.

Hence the end to this remarkable, albeit true story.

Dude fully recovered, despite experiencing intraoperative cardiac arrest.

Walked outta the hospital.

End of story......ALMOST.....

remember from the other thread I said there was a

SURPRISE??

Uhhh...

Dude was scheduled a year later. For his other knee.😱😱

Yep.

I tried to talk Chase out of it. I talked to the patient personally.

About the risks.

Of another surgery.

Patient Dude still wanted it. He had recovered so well from his initial knee surgery 🙂laugh🙂 and that knee felt so good from the recovery, he wanted the other one done.

Absolutely.

SO...

Vascular surg dude put in a greenfield filter before the second knee operation. Don't know if it was warranted or if it helped.

But we put the dude to sleep for his second knee replacement.

He walked out alive and happy.

AGAIN.

"This concludes our story, ladies and gentlemen. It's a true story. For better or for worse."
 
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What a story, JET! Man, that is impressive. Despite being somewhat ill from watching the Flyers just dismantle my second favorite hockey team on the planet, I think that's EXACTLY the type of story other docs need to read... to respect Anesthesiologists the way they should be respected. Period.

I have about 100 questions, which would probably cover most of CA-1, but I'll leave this thread to the Docs who, I'm sure, will join in soon enough.

Ok, I won't ask these per se, I'll just float them out there, showing you that I'm wondering about this stuff:

1) I understand the comment about ETCO2, no tube = no ETCO2 being monitored had this been regional. How would this situation have been handled differently the moment you called for your partner. That is, I imagine, while you were compressing, you'd have been bagging, and would be getting an airway REAL FAST, so, do you think regional would have affected the outcome all that much?

I've seen a room full of docs cath-ing a patient (so they're by her groin) and not realizing that she was bleeding out of her mouth. (quietly). Point being, with a CRNA at the head, might a regional going south (to sleep) be more obvious than a general going south because your awake patient is no longer awake? I wonder if this would have tipped Diane off earlier? I know you're not asking a calm, maybe dozing regional patient if they're ok every 14 seconds, but might regional have not been that much a different outcome?

2) So, when you got in the room, you looked at tube for condensation, and checked breath sounds, two ways to confirm successful intubation (chest rise being a third!) 🙂 , BUT you were looking for LIFE in and of itself.... I'm wondering, what did the EKG show? Zilch? And if so, does epi bring about a life-bearing rhythm from a non-life bearing rhythm?

3) Physiologically speaking, if an emboli made it to the heart and caused this, a) why did CPR help? in other words, where did the clot go? b) is it expected that the emboli will then travel to the brain? I know you were worried after the case about the brain, so I'm guessing yes, it's a concern. d) was the patient heparinized during all this? and if so, are clots "that typical" with heparin?

4) I hate to ask all these questions (HA), but curious, when you're expecting an emboli, is placing monitors like the A line and Central Line every contraindicated? In other words, does having a foreign object in the heart every cause more problems than they're worth. Maybe heparin solves this, no idea.

Way to go man!!!! I'm beyond impressed, I really hope I get to do this for a living one day. NO need to answer this stuff, I probably won't understand 99.9% of the answer anyway. Ok, 99.999%.

Cheers to you,
D712
 
What a story, JET! Man, that is impressive. Despite being somewhat ill from watching the Flyers just dismantle my second favorite hockey team on the planet, I think that's EXACTLY the type of story other docs need to read... to respect Anesthesiologists the way they should be respected. Period.

I have about 100 questions, which would probably cover most of CA-1, but I'll leave this thread to the Docs who, I'm sure, will join in soon enough.

Ok, I won't ask these per se, I'll just float them out there, showing you that I'm wondering about this stuff:

1) I understand the comment about ETCO2, no tube = no ETCO2 being monitored had this been regional. How would this situation have been handled differently the moment you called for your partner. That is, I imagine, while you were compressing, you'd have been bagging, and would be getting an airway REAL FAST, so, do you think regional would have affected the outcome all that much?

I've seen a room full of docs cath-ing a patient (so they're by her groin) and not realizing that she was bleeding out of her mouth. (quietly). Point being, with a CRNA at the head, might a regional going south (to sleep) be more obvious than a general going south because your awake patient is no longer awake? I wonder if this would have tipped Diane off earlier? I know you're not asking a calm, maybe dozing regional patient if they're ok every 14 seconds, but might regional have not been that much a different outcome?

2) So, when you got in the room, you looked at tube for condensation, and checked breath sounds, two ways to confirm successful intubation (chest rise being a third!) 🙂 , BUT you were looking for LIFE in and of itself.... I'm wondering, what did the EKG show? Zilch? And if so, does epi bring about a life-bearing rhythm from a non-life bearing rhythm?

3) Physiologically speaking, if an emboli made it to the heart and caused this, a) why did CPR help? in other words, where did the clot go? b) is it expected that the emboli will then travel to the brain? I know you were worried after the case about the brain, so I'm guessing yes, it's a concern. d) was the patient heparinized during all this? and if so, are clots "that typical" with heparin?

4) I hate to ask all these questions (HA), but curious, when you're expecting an emboli, is placing monitors like the A line and Central Line every contraindicated? In other words, does having a foreign object in the heart every cause more problems than they're worth. Maybe heparin solves this, no idea.

Way to go man!!!! I'm beyond impressed, I really hope I get to do this for a living one day. NO need to answer this stuff, I probably won't understand 99.9% of the answer anyway. Ok, 99.999%.

Cheers to you,
D712

Holy jeez, I though I was the only Islanders fan left.
 
Holy jeez, I though I was the only Islanders fan left.

That's weird. I'm an insane Isles fan, where did I post that? Are you referencing the Flyers hatred? That could go for Devils, Habs, Rangers, Isles, Bruins, a bunch o teams. But you picked my Isles.

Yep. So, there's two of us...

D712
 
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2) So, when you got in the room, you looked at tube for condensation, and checked breath sounds, two ways to confirm successful intubation (chest rise being a third!) 🙂 , BUT you were looking for LIFE in and of itself.... I'm wondering, what did the EKG show? Zilch? And if so, does epi bring about a life-bearing rhythm from a non-life bearing rhythm?

The EKG could show an essentially normal tracing if the patient was in Pulseless Electrical Activity, which wouldn't be too unsurprising in the scenario given. I wanna know what the pulse oximeter was doing if the pt. didn't have a perfusing rhythm, though. Surgeon should be asking "where are the beeps?"


3) Physiologically speaking, if an emboli made it to the heart and caused this, a) why did CPR help? in other words, where did the clot go? b) is it expected that the emboli will then travel to the brain? I know you were worried after the case about the brain, so I'm guessing yes, it's a concern. d) was the patient heparinized during all this? and if so, are clots "that typical" with heparin?

A thrombus or fat embolus would reach the central circulation through the venous system, so the only way it could reach the brain would be if the patient had a shunt between the right and left side of the heart, as in the case of an atrial septal defect or other such congenital anomaly. (This stuff will be cake for you after your first year of med school, D712.) I think the concern for the brain was the question of how long the guy had been without systemic perfusion that could cause an anoxic brain injury.

You don't see patients systemically heparinized routinely except during big vascular and cardiac cases, in my experience.

Jet, thanks for coming through with the ending!
 
I'm bored (and trying not to lose all my knowledge before intern year, and trying to work on teaching skills), so I'll answer the non-Jet specific and/or easier questions:

2) So, when you got in the room, you looked at tube for condensation, and checked breath sounds, two ways to confirm successful intubation (chest rise being a third!) 🙂 , BUT you were looking for LIFE in and of itself.... I'm wondering, what did the EKG show? Zilch? And if so, does epi bring about a life-bearing rhythm from a non-life bearing rhythm?

EKGs can occasionally pick up pulmonary embolisms, but aren't that great at it, and probably much less so in this environment.

A life-bearing rhythm is really any rhythm that perfuses the heart/brain/vital organs. As you may have seen in other threads, this can even be Vtach for short periods. Conversely, you can have a picture perfect EKG that isn't life-bearing because there is no perfusion. The EKG just shows what is happening electrically with the heart; it doesn't really say that much about what is actually happening mechanically. The epi is there to give the heart some extra squeeze, so to speak. There are other antiarrhythmics in the ACLS protocol if CPR had gone on long enough.

3) Physiologically speaking, if an emboli made it to the heart and caused this, a) why did CPR help? in other words, where did the clot go? b) is it expected that the emboli will then travel to the brain? I know you were worried after the case about the brain, so I'm guessing yes, it's a concern. d) was the patient heparinized during all this? and if so, are clots "that typical" with heparin?

More than likely, the embolus lodged somewhere in the pulmonary vasculature and impeded gas exchange, which is why they were concerned about the EtCO2. The clot may have broken up, or just got pushed out into the periphery enough that it wasn't life-threatening anymore.

There's really no way for the clot to make it to the brain unless there was a PFO (hole between the right and left sides of the heart) or some other conduit between the two sides. They were more concerned that while the patient was pulseless, he wasn't getting enough oxygen to the brain.

Patient probably wasn't heparinized during surgery (at least initially, I don't know what the protocol is after intra-op arrests that are suspected secondary to PE). A lot of surgery patients are placed on anticoagulants prophylactically post-op if they are going to be immobilized. I wouldn't say clots on heparin are "typical," but they still happen (at least they did on the burn unit, but those patients are also already hypercoagulable to start with).

4) I hate to ask all these questions (HA), but curious, when you're expecting an emboli, is placing monitors like the A line and Central Line every contraindicated? In other words, does having a foreign object in the heart every cause more problems than they're worth. Maybe heparin solves this, no idea.

I think you just wouldn't want to place a monitor in an extremity that had a documented clot in it. Foreign bodies are inherently thrombogenic, so you have to keep that under consideration if a patient is hypercoagulable. As you alluded to, it's a risk-benefit analysis in those patients. A-lines and central lines shouldn't actually be in the heart, so that's not a concern.
 
Thanks for the answers gang!
D712
 
Outsider has a question. My background, fairly new RN grad working in ICU and hopes to go to CRNA school one day. So I check out this forum and others to learn. I can't seem to think of a reason why the BP would drop to 90s for awhile before finally turning into PEA. What would happen physiologically to cause this? In my mind, an emboli if large enough would suddenly stop all flow through the PA and arrest would be close to instant. What happened to cause the initial signs that something wasn't right? Was the PA partially occluded and then progressed somehow, a second emboli maybe? Or my other idea: a very large group of pulm vasculature is plugged up and the heart finally can't take the stress and quits moving, hence PEA. Very interesting stuff and thanks to anyone who can entertain my curiosity.
 
Outsider has a question. My background, fairly new RN grad working in ICU and hopes to go to CRNA school one day. So I check out this forum and others to learn. I can't seem to think of a reason why the BP would drop to 90s for awhile before finally turning into PEA. What would happen physiologically to cause this? In my mind, an emboli if large enough would suddenly stop all flow through the PA and arrest would be close to instant. What happened to cause the initial signs that something wasn't right? Was the PA partially occluded and then progressed somehow, a second emboli maybe? Or my other idea: a very large group of pulm vasculature is plugged up and the heart finally can't take the stress and quits moving, hence PEA. Very interesting stuff and thanks to anyone who can entertain my curiosity.


The pulm artery splits into Rt and Lt. Of course, there are more branches as it splits to deliver blood to both lungs, so a PE can occlude anywhere along that path, or can just kind of hang out and partially occlude one of the artery branches. In extremely rare scenarios, you can get what is called a "saddle embolus" which saddles the bifurcation of Rt and Lt PA. That's got a pretty high mortality rate, depending on how much of the lumen of the vessel is occluded.

If this was a PE, the initial drop in b.p. was from a decrease in blood flow to the LV, resulting in lower stroke volume. This increased the work for the heart muscle, while decreasing availability of blood and hence oxygen available to do the work. That equals MI --> PEA --> JET CPR
 
Quick little follow up to the embolism angle on this thread. I spoke to a resident friend who explained to me exactly why you'd need a shunt to have an emboli go to the brain from someone's periphery during surgery. I had the path right, but the lungs and vessels now make more sense about a clot traveling, etc.

Anyway, so, Brett Michaels has been all over the news lately. First he has an appendectomy, then his large brain hemmorhage, then a week or so later, a TIA. Subsequent to that, they discover a PFO during cath. His doctors have clearly stated that the PFO had "no connection" to his recent TIA. Does this make perfect sense? Isn't that PFO the conduit that could very well lead to a small plaque-driven stroke?

Curiously,
D712
 
Quick little follow up to the embolism angle on this thread. I spoke to a resident friend who explained to me exactly why you'd need a shunt to have an emboli go to the brain from someone's periphery during surgery. I had the path right, but the lungs and vessels now make more sense about a clot traveling, etc.

Anyway, so, Brett Michaels has been all over the news lately. First he has an appendectomy, then his large brain hemmorhage, then a week or so later, a TIA. Subsequent to that, they discover a PFO during cath. His doctors have clearly stated that the PFO had "no connection" to his recent TIA. Does this make perfect sense? Isn't that PFO the conduit that could very well lead to a small plaque-driven stroke?

Curiously,
D712

Yes, you are correct in the last statement, namely that ischemic strokes can arise from PFO-directed emboli (paradoxical embolism), but Bret's first stroke was a hemorrhagic stroke. The biggest risk factor for this type of latter stroke is hypertension since the mechanism of hemorrhage differs from ischemia secondary to occlusion of the cerebral vasculature. I think the doctors hedged on saying that the PFO likely does not have anything to do with the hemorrhagic infarction because they were essentially saying that it's much less probable that he hemorrhaged through a vessel that was first infarcted by ischemic occlusion (a type of "reperfusion injury" after the occlusion resolves subsequent to a damaged (secondary to ischemia) leaky vessel).
 
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