List of Crappy Gross-horse programs

[Substance]

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I just read the thread about fellowships: when the current norm in your field is 2 fellowships, then there's a big problem with training: either too many programs, inadequate training, or both.

Hopefully by making this list, astute medical students interested in path can avoid the bad programs, and employers can know who came from a bad program.

List any programs you know are bad (too much grossing, no teaching, bad board pass rates, bad hiring rates for grads, on probation etc.). PM me if you would rather I list them anonymously.

 

[yaah]

I'm not sure the norm is 2 fellowships. Part of the problem is that until 5 years or so ago, residency was a 5 year requirement and most people filled the 5th year with a surg path fellowship. An accredited fellowship like derm or heme or cyto did not "count" for the 5th year. So some people were forced to do an extra fellowship that they didn't want or need.

I think the norm is probably one fellowship, although there are a sizeable percentage who do two and a small but real percentage who do three or zero.

 

[deleted314957]

i thought that that "5th" year had to have ( at least marginally ) a "clinical" bent. i know people got around it lots of ways but i thought a surg path fellowship would not cut it. i know the "intent" of the ABP was a "real" clinical experience, most preferably a clinical/rotating internship like i did in the dark ages (late 70's). i think it was a good idea. we have too many pathologists who have no idea of where they fit in the big picture.

 

[KCShaw]

Well, there was evidently a time that one was supposed to have clinical training -before- starting scope time, or basically a traditional intern year followed by what is now a traditional pathology residency, instead of an additional 'credentialing' year -after- scope time, which became more scope time, basically. In fact, when I was applying, a percentage of websites and contact pages still implied or outright declared one "had" to have an intern/clinical year prior to applying to that program. Eventually I discovered the level of hogwash that was compared to the norms. I think there's an old thread or two around about that, with input from those who knew a lot more about that process -- which is somewhat interesting as it offers a little more insight into why we are where we are.

 

[Substance]

Well, there was evidently a time that one was supposed to have clinical training -before- starting scope time, or basically a traditional intern year followed by what is now a traditional pathology residency, instead of an additional 'credentialing' year -after- scope time, which became more scope time, basically. In fact, when I was applying, a percentage of websites and contact pages still implied or outright declared one "had" to have an intern/clinical year prior to applying to that program. Eventually I discovered the level of hogwash that was compared to the norms. I think there's an old thread or two around about that, with input from those who knew a lot more about that process -- which is somewhat interesting as it offers a little more insight into why we are where we are.

I think that every doctor should have to have some kind of experience actually being one: writing orders, writing scripts, physical exams,etc. That includes our friends in the path dept.
Rads does it, and everyone knows who they are and what they do. Path is seen as being made up of the weird little guys who can't speak English - who don't do intern year not because its useless, but because they are incapable.

Anyway, part of restoring the prestige of any field is to weed out the crap. So if anyone has any other programs that they feel are inadequate for training residents in pathology, and that use them for gross labor, post it here or PM me.

 

[KeratinPearls]

This list is more than overdue.

If you know of a program that is known to be a glorified gross tech training program, list it here so people will know to avoid it and to scrutinize its trainees as being unprepared for practice. If you don't want to come right out and say it, PM me and I will list it anonymously.

If you can, add the estimated percentage of FMG/IMG residents.

Listed as avoid (probably should be shut down):

UMDNJ-RWJMS in New Brunswick, NJ (residents don't do diagnostic work, only grossing)
Albany Medical College - Albany NY (Insufficient PA staff, so residents do most of the grossing)
Stony Brook - LI (too much grossing and no preview time, though some people deny this)
Roosevelt-St. Luke - NY (on probation)

Listed as with reservations (the jury is still out on these ones, but beware):

Virginia Commonwealth (conflicting reports about grossing burden, ?resident sign-out responsibilities)
George Washington
Mount Sinai in NYC
Brown
Howard (low case volume)
Henry Ford - Detroit Michigan
George Washington University - Washington D.C.
Baystate Medical Center - Springfield MA
Case Western Reserve University - Cleveland Ohio
Brown University - Providence RI
DMC - Wayne State - Detroit, Michigan

What are your sources by the way?

 

[Substance]

What are your sources by the way?

Anonymous PMs and lists posted on the thread by other users. It's not scientific, but rumor never is, and its better than nothing given the state of affairs.

 

[member0007]

mount sinai hospital in nyc remains on the top of the list! it's a terrible program. it would be nice if they had a chair with real residency training but they don't. not that it matters, the prior chair, the one with melanoma and lyme disease is still there but no longer the chair!!! really! i am listing facts and if you want to check it out, you may. also, the new program director terrorizes individual physicians and only hired to harass people. the only really competent people remaining are trying to leave the department but the hospital threatens their prospects outside of mount sinai hospital.

 

[member0007]

i believe in hard work and obviously, we have all worked hard; and some of us were very ethical, and others, not so much. i like to stand up for the ethical and if it offends you that i call out the bs on a public and democratic forum... let's just admit that studentdoctor is not doing what it should, that is advocating anonymity and free speech that speaks to the experiences of the poster.

 

[member0007]

If the match results from this past year made anything clear, its truly a buyer's market out there when shopping for pathology residency programs. The dedicated applicant pool, as in those doing pathology because they really, really like it, is much smaller than the number of spots to fill. And I don't think its going to grow anytime soon for whatever reason you'd like to attribute to it (i.e. crappy job market, perceived uninteresting work, bad training conditions, etc.)

So with that said, if you are a future applicant and are on the interview trail and catch wind of any of the following, you should interpret these as very big red flags:

1. No PA: means you're going to be the PA at half price

2. More than 50% of your physical time will be spent grossing

3. Few, if any, residents in the program are able to get fellowships

4. Board pass rates are in the toilet

5. Faculty turnover rate is high; that usually means that junior faculty don't last more than 2-3 years

6. Sign-out consists of you staring through the scope in a sleepless induced daze as the attending flies through cases you either didn't preview or gross yourself. Along with this, if you aren't allowed to work up and/or write up cases independently towards the terminal end of your training, you should also interpret that as a huge red flag and tacit admission on how little faith the dept/faculty have on the training they are supposed to be giving you.

7. The program uses the RISE as a mechanism to determine promotion/retention within the program...even more worrisome if any of the above are also present in the program

8. You have no electives, or if you do they're at the end of the program, well after the fellowship application process

9. Your book fund is unbelievably measly and you get no support to go to conferences to network or present research...assuming any happens at said program

10. And the biggest one of them all: The residents generally look dissatisfied. Tired doesn't count, but tired and dissatisfied does. Most people are poor actors, so this should be readily apparent in the interview day. Also along this line, if you don't get to meet any residents or its a very hurried interaction, that's another big red flag.

This is what I can think of off the top of my head. I don't think making a list of programs would be as productive as knowing what the red flags are. Programs often change for the better, but bad education is universal irrespective of the institution.

on point. but worse.

1. No PA means the hospital makes millions of dollars on your work.

2. Not only are you grossing but you are not signing out the cases you grossed.

3. Most institutions have made the effort to accommodate training/education matters where as your program clearly has not.

4. Board pass rates are abysmal but you are considered a threat if you were able to pass the boards.

5. Most productive teaching faculty have left. those who want to leave or have tried to leave are prevented from leaving.

6. The sign out is at the whim with little access to material prior to sign out on a regular basis and/or stains or cases are not available for sign out or review.

7. RISE is there but another example of poor performance review. If your residency were a school, it would fail.

8. No electives as advertised.

9. God forbid if you cannot produce a credit card record of book purchase for a refund of $250.

10. No one killed themselves yet to warrant the "alleged egregious complaint".

 

[member0007]

on point. but worse.

1. No PA means the hospital makes millions of dollars on your work.

2. Not only are you grossing but you are not signing out the cases you grossed.

3. Most institutions have made the effort to accommodate training/education matters where as your program clearly has not.

4. Board pass rates are abysmal but you are considered a threat if you were able to pass the boards.

5. Most productive teaching faculty have left. those who want to leave or have tried to leave are prevented from leaving.

6. The sign out is at the whim with little access to material prior to sign out on a regular basis and/or stains or cases are not available for sign out or review.

7. RISE is there but another example of poor performance review. If your residency were a school, it would fail.

8. No electives as advertised.

9. God forbid if you cannot produce a credit card record of book purchase for a refund of $250.

10. No one killed themselves yet to warrant the "alleged egregious complaint".

No one quotes me. What's up with that?

 

[IgnisDU]

No one quotes me. What's up with that?

Feel better now?

 

[member0007]

Feel better now?

OMG. Just found out that Alan Schiller was hired by University of Hawaii as the Chair of the department. How did this happen? He is one disgusting human being that regularly harasses minority woman and promotes only Caucasians. Not to mention that he was fired from the chairman position at Mount Sinai Medical Center according to people in the know. It must be nice to be overly tanned white caucasian male where no matter what you do or how much crap you do, someone will still hire you for your nonexistent pathology and managerial skills.

 

[KLPM]

OMG. Just found out that Alan Schiller was hired by University of Hawaii as the Chair of the department. How did this happen? He is one disgusting human being that regularly harasses minority woman and promotes only Caucasians. Not to mention that he was fired from the chairman position at Mount Sinai Medical Center according to people in the know. It must be nice to be overly tanned white caucasian male where no matter what you do or how much crap you do, someone will still hire you for your nonexistent pathology and managerial skills.

Okay who wrote this: http://www.vitals.com/doctors/Dr_Alan_Schiller/reviews

 

[member0007]

Okay who wrote this: http://www.vitals.com/doctors/Dr_Alan_Schiller/reviews

Not very thorough because Alan Schiller is not only incompetent but also a racist sexist bully!

"He does not like lotteries because, as he puts it, getting to his livelihood should not have to depend on luck. In fact, he concedes that the current system of camping out ''is the fairest way to do it.'' But fair, he suggests, can sometimes be silly. " typical Schiller/Fallon logic... yuck. yuck. yuck.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D06E1D71731F937A35755C0A9609C8B63

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/24/n...t-the-rail-station-first-endure-the-wait.html

This is the garbage this guy used to be up to, among other icky and crazy stuff, and had the time for... yuck.

 

[Substance]

Not very thorough because Alan Schiller is not only incompetent but also a racist sexist bully!

"He does not like lotteries because, as he puts it, getting to his livelihood should not have to depend on luck. In fact, he concedes that the current system of camping out ''is the fairest way to do it.'' But fair, he suggests, can sometimes be silly. " typical Schiller/Fallon logic... yuck. yuck. yuck.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D06E1D71731F937A35755C0A9609C8B63

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/24/n...t-the-rail-station-first-endure-the-wait.html

This is the garbage this guy used to be up to, among other icky and crazy stuff, and had the time for... yuck.

You sound petty and insane. Get over it.

 

[member0007]

You sound petty and insane. Get over it.

You seem to take it personally, which is insane.... get over yourself.

 

[KLPM]

 

[Dral]

You seem to take it personally, which is insane.... get over yourself.

No, really, almost every post you make seems to have something to do with possible defamation of Mt Sinai Pathology or those who have worked there.

You have a problem with them. We get it. You can stop now.

 

[member0007]

No, really, almost every post you make seems to have something to do with possible defamation of Mt Sinai Pathology or those who have worked there.

You have a problem with them. We get it. You can stop now.

whomever you are, you are really unhinged

 

[Dral]

whomever you are, you are really unhinged

I am not at all 'unhinged'. 🙄

As someone else pointed out, you are the one that seems to post nothing but slander and insults.

How are we 'taking things personally' or 'unhinged' because we are asking you to stop slandering others. We've all seen your previous posts complaining about Sinai. It is not productive to keep doing it.

 

[Substance]

I am not at all 'unhinged'. 🙄

As someone else pointed out, you are the one that seems to post nothing but slander and insults.

How are we 'taking things personally' or 'unhinged' because we are asking you to stop slandering others. We've all seen your previous posts complaining about Sinai. It is not productive to keep doing it.

Let's get back on topic.

Are there any other gross-horse programs that are of poor educational quality? PM me if you have any suggestions.

 

[oldfatman]

I am not at all 'unhinged'. 🙄

As someone else pointed out, you are the one that seems to post nothing but slander and insults.

How are we 'taking things personally' or 'unhinged' because we are asking you to stop slandering others. We've all seen your previous posts complaining about Sinai. It is not productive to keep doing it.

You clearly have not had the opportunity to gross enough small biopsies.

 

[InterimChair]

I am not at all 'unhinged'. 🙄

As someone else pointed out, you are the one that seems to post nothing but slander and insults.

How are we 'taking things personally' or 'unhinged' because we are asking you to stop slandering others. We've all seen your previous posts complaining about Sinai. It is not productive to keep doing it.

 

[LADoc00]

Im not impressed with any Pathology training programs to be honest. There are super dedicated faculty here or there, that from time to time get totally burnt out and then suck but a majority of training is actually more dependent on your interactions with fellow residents etc.

Which means if you are a no-personality type you are in trouble WHEREVER you go. A sage old yedi faculty member in Boston once told me he could predict the residents who would suceed and those who would fail at the introductory meet and greet.

 

[LADoc00]

OMG. Just found out that Alan Schiller was hired by University of Hawaii as the Chair of the department. How did this happen? He is one disgusting human being that regularly harasses minority woman and promotes only Caucasians. Not to mention that he was fired from the chairman position at Mount Sinai Medical Center according to people in the know.

Huh have we just totally stopped moderating anything on this forum??

Dude you need to dial that stuff back like 10 notches, then wipe your internet browser, then burn your hard drive and change your IP address. After all that, I would still chat up a good attorney just in case.

Unless you are posting from a Yemeni internet cafe that is.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

Huh have we just totally stopped moderating anything on this forum??

Dude you need to dial that stuff back like 10 notches, then wipe your internet browser, then burn your hard drive and change your IP address. After all that, I would still chat up a good attorney just in case.

Unless you are posting from a Yemeni internet cafe that is.

Yea, someone needs to show member007, what happened to the Dr Oppenheimer of OurLab. I think he posts here so maybe he could tell the story. FBI INFORMANT was about as good an internet name as Carlos Danger.

 

[member0007]

Huh have we just totally stopped moderating anything on this forum??

Dude you need to dial that stuff back like 10 notches, then wipe your internet browser, then burn your hard drive and change your IP address. After all that, I would still chat up a good attorney just in case.

Unless you are posting from a Yemeni internet cafe that is.

Yea, someone needs to show member007, what happened to the Dr Oppenheimer of OurLab. I think he posts here so maybe he could tell the story. FBI INFORMANT was about as good an internet name as Carlos Danger.

Wow. This is exactly what goes on at pathology residency programs, entitled wing nuts with inside know how about other posters and the likes, making threats directed another poster. Jeez. Both of you are idiotic and your are so laughable and pitiful coming here to defend some racist sexist hate mongrel that ran residency program like a "slave training camp". That game is on the way out, comprende? Alright, as for threats directed at me, I don't appreciate it and if anyone is getting smoked out. It's your pathetic bs crap self. Okie?

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

Wow. This is exactly what goes on at pathology residency programs, entitled wing nuts with inside know how about other posters and the likes, making threats directed another poster. Jeez. Both of you are idiotic and your are so laughable and pitiful coming here to defend some racist sexist hate mongrel that ran residency program like a "slave training camp". That game is on the way out, comprende? Alright, as for threats directed at me, I don't appreciate it and if anyone is getting smoked out. It's your pathetic bs crap self. Okie?

Nobody is defending anyone. Just be careful accusing people of stuff by name. One pathologist has already gotten into legal trouble over this.

 

[member0007]

Nobody is defending anyone. Just be careful accusing people of stuff by name. One pathologist has already gotten into legal trouble over this.

i think you need to be more specific about this "one pathologist" and the "into legal trouble over" stuff, OK?

 

[LADoc00]

Wow. This is exactly what goes on at pathology residency programs, entitled wing nuts with inside know how about other posters and the likes, making threats directed another poster. Jeez. Both of you are idiotic and your are so laughable and pitiful coming here to defend some racist sexist hate mongrel that ran residency program like a "slave training camp". That game is on the way out, comprende? Alright, as for threats directed at me, I don't appreciate it and if anyone is getting smoked out. It's your pathetic bs crap self. Okie?

Huh.

Dude you are totally insane. Like Jihadist insane. We need serious moderator assistance asap.

 

[member0007]

Huh.

Dude you are totally insane. Like Jihadist insane. We need serious moderator assistance asap.

Wow. I don't appreciate your personal attacks and name calling, someone should ban you from this forum for being a hateful xenophobe.

 

[LADoc00]

Is anyone gonna moderate this up or we are going to have Memberjihadi007 blow himself and the path forums up until Alan Schiller's attorneys close the whole party down??

Dude, get a grip. If you are actually a pathologist in California and NOT posting from the computer room at Pelican Bay State Prison, you are venturing down a dark hole.

I can only assume from your postings:
1.) you are not a native English speaker
2.) likely bear a thinly veiled hatred of America and her values
3.) but still want in on the "phat lewts" from being a doctorman in the "Tanned Caucasian Lands" you reference

Im waiting for you post this is all a joke or you are indeed in custody in a mental institution somewhere in Cali (where you claim to be...).

But you are incoherent at this point.

 

[member0007]

Is anyone gonna moderate this up or we are going to have Memberjihadi007 blow himself and the path forums up until Alan Schiller's attorneys close the whole party down??

Dude, get a grip. If you are actually a pathologist in California and NOT posting from the computer room at Pelican Bay State Prison, you are venturing down a dark hole.

I can only assume from your postings:
1.) you are not a native English speaker
2.) likely bear a thinly veiled hatred of America and her values
3.) but still want in on the "phat lewts" from being a doctorman in the "Tanned Caucasian Lands" you reference

Im waiting for you post this is all a joke or you are indeed in custody in a mental institution somewhere in Cali (where you claim to be...).

But you are incoherent at this point.

Listen you freak with American flag and Pres Reagan on your avatar and so you are so american crap... Your postings are unintelligible crap and I have no idea what you are going on about above.

The fact that you make disparaging commentary that are frankly outright xenophobic, racist, and culturally insensitive are even more concerning because you are a total delusional lunatic. No one said anything directed to you and I have no idea why you would take anything so personally, unless of course, you were Alan Schiller! Then of course, your entire line of logic above would be reasonable. Either way, you are an idiot.

 

[LADoc00]

Damn Abu Nazir!

Seriously are you posting here between jihadi YouTube posts shouting Death to America?


You realize your IP address is logged and probably you've already warranted a folder at some cubicle in Quantico.

I would love to know the backstory on your hate of this random dude. Did he kick you out of the program leaving your visa to be pulled and a 36 hr plane ride back to Pakistan where you are now posting from a 1 room apartment somewhere in the Hindu Kush clutching a beat up old Kalashnikov and plotting your revenge on this Schiller dude?

------

Okay I have some working hypotheses on you Member007jihadi.

You are female telling people you are of Egyptian or Jordanian descent. I favor Egyptian. But you are really of Palestinian origin and your family relocated to the NYC area after the Yom Kippur War or October War in 73.

Your family is working class and you grew up in Queens or in a nearby borough.

You did well in school, attended a public university and found your way into a NY med school where you matched at Mt. Sinai.

Immediately you felt it was a bad fit and Professor Schiller did little to help your cause. As a former Naval commander, he often has informal meetings at Mt. Sinai with uniformed military officers. He is also incidentally a top US scientist for NASA and had Top Secret clearance for over a decade (I literally couldnt make up crap this good, google it). Perhaps some of those visiting officers were involved in drone strikes in North Africa and you arent happy about that.

Perhaps in your frustration you made a detour into radical Islam, reigniting some friendships with associates in Abu Sayyaf, Abu Nidal and of course EIJ (Egyptian Islamic Jihad). They reinforced your screw all this attitude and your performance at Mt. Sinai suffered even more.

You had no friends in the program and felt even more isolated until the faithful day Alan L. Schiller, former Lt. Commander in the U.S. Navy, brought you into his office to say they would NOT be renewing your contract for the following year.

You would have been a 3rd year resident.

Feeling betrayed you leave NY and come to California where you float for awhile before finding a position as a GP in a clinic in the LA.

Now a few years after the pain, you are still angry at this guy although he was probably only the messenger.

...pretty spot on huh?

This has all the makings of Season 3 of Homeland folks. TUNE IN!!

 

[member0007]

Damn Abu Nazir!

Seriously are you posting here between jihadi YouTube posts shouting Death to America?


You realize your IP address is logged and probably you've already warranted a folder at some cubicle in Quantico.

I would love to know the backstory on your hate of this random dude. Did he kick you out of the program leaving your visa to be pulled and a 36 hr plane ride back to Pakistan where you are now posting from a 1 room apartment somewhere in the Hindu Kush clutching a beat up old Kalashnikov and plotting your revenge on this Schiller dude?

------

Okay I have some working hypotheses on you Member007jihadi.

You are female telling people you are of Egyptian or Jordanian descent. I favor Egyptian. But you are really of Palestinian origin and your family relocated to the NYC area after the Yom Kippur War or October War in 73.

Your family is working class and you grew up in Queens or in a nearby borough.

You did well in school, attended a public university and found your way into a NY med school where you matched at Mt. Sinai.

Immediately you felt it was a bad fit and Professor Schiller did little to help your cause. As a former Naval commander, he often has informal meetings at Mt. Sinai with uniformed military officers. He is also incidentally a top US scientist for NASA and had Top Secret clearance for over a decade (I literally couldnt make up crap this good, google it). Perhaps some of those visiting officers were involved in drone strikes in North Africa and you arent happy about that.

Perhaps in your frustration you made a detour into radical Islam, reigniting some friendships with associates in Abu Sayyaf, Abu Nidal and of course EIJ (Egyptian Islamic Jihad). They reinforced your screw all this attitude and your performance at Mt. Sinai suffered even more.

You had no friends in the program and felt even more isolated until the faithful day Alan L. Schiller, former Lt. Commander in the U.S. Navy, brought you into his office to say they would NOT be renewing your contract for the following year.

You would have been a 3rd year resident.

Feeling betrayed you leave NY and come to California where you float for awhile before finding a position as a GP in a clinic in the LA.

Now a few years after the pain, you are still angry at this guy although he was probably only the messenger.

...pretty spot on huh?

This has all the makings of Season 3 of Homeland folks. TUNE IN!!

What the heck? You watch way too much bad television buddy.

 

[LADoc00]

What the heck? You watch way too much bad television buddy.

I just woke a guy up in Georgetown to tell him about this thread. You know Alan Schiller is connected as all hell right? He had almost FIFTY years associated with Naval Ops.


You literally couldnt have picked a worse target for online shenanigans.

This is CLASSIC! Im rolling in my chair atm.

Damn SDN, I missed you🙂

 

[member0007]

I just woke a guy up in Georgetown to tell him about this thread. You know Alan Schiller is connected as all hell right? He had almost FIFTY years associated with Naval Ops.


You literally couldnt have picked a worse target for online shenanigans.

This is CLASSIC! Im rolling in my chair atm.

Damn SDN, I missed you🙂

You need to stop threatening me because Alan Schiller is connected. The last I checked, you didn't work for him because I didn't see you oiling him up on the private beach 😱 I am sure he has a promotion and a job in his hat for you now that you have taken it upon yourself to defend his honor. Your are literally an idiot.

 

[LADoc00]

You need to stop threatening me because Alan Schiller is connected. The last I checked, you didn't work for him because I didn't see you oiling him up on the private beach 😱 I am sure he has a promotion and a job in his hat for you now that you have taken upon yourself to defend his honor. Your are literally an idiot.

Is this a joke? Is this like SDN's version of Candid Camera where someone leaps out and says "We got you LADOC!"....

Im waiting for the joke part....waiting...this cant be in all seriousness right. This member0007 dude is actually Alan Schiller's online persona or something...

 

[member0007]

Is this a joke? Is this like SDN's version of Candid Camera where someone leaps out and says "We got you LADOC!"....

Im waiting for the joke part....waiting...this cant be in all seriousness right. This member0007 dude is actually Alan Schiller's online persona or something...

what is wrong with you?

 

[yaah]

Thread closed.

This is an inappropriate discussion. SDN is not the place for airing personal grievances against individuals, particularly when they are identifying.