crazypsychstudent

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I will be applying to graduate school this semester and I would like to make sure I have not left out any "good" programs. I know all of these schools are expensive, please note that is not what I am seeking feedback about. I used the Insider's Guide to select the following schools:

FIT
NOVA
MSPP
Baylor University
Rutgers University
Antioch University New England
Pacific University
Chestnut Hill College
University of Hartford
Indiana State University
Indiana University of Pennsylvania
University of Indianapolis
La Salle University
Long Island University
Loyala University Maryland
Pepperdine University
Roosevelt University
Widener University
Wright State University
Xavier University
 

erg923

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Baylor, Rutgers. and then Xavier. Maybe Indianapolis. I would forget the rest.
 
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erg923

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And if I don't get in?

Well there are only two outcomes that can follow from that, right? You apply again or do something else.

Obviously, many personal factors will be determinant in which of those two options you chose.

I would add Indiana state there too actually. What criteria did/are you using to generate that list?
 
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erg923

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Any good ones a Forensic emphasis?

If you are asking if any on my list have forensic tracks, I don't know. Forensic applications of clinical practice is usually something gained internship and after. And if you do get it before, I see little need or benefit for a formal "track" in grad school.
 

crazypsychstudent

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Programs that accept a GPA equal or below mine (3.6 undergrad & 3.8 for psych), ones that were not too research heavy since I will not have any publications, and ones that have lower quant scores on the GRE because I cannot score above a 145 after studying two years... Also, I tried not to include any that had low APA internship match rates because I understand how important that is. I considering going into a master's in counseling, but I have been passionate about clinical psych and that is why I even majored in psych. I want to have a private practice and work at a hospital doing research & treatment.
 

erg923

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Counseling psych phd programs? Dave a little money, no?
 

OneNeuroDoctor

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I would check into the programs in Illinois as they are setting up combined PsyD/PA and PhD/PA programs.

PCOM
FIT
WSPP
FIPP

I would not assume that you will have increased odds of getting into PSyD program as when I applied I only received offers from new programs that were not APA accredited and my guess is that it is more difficult now.
 

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Programs that accept a GPA equal or below mine (3.6 undergrad & 3.8 for psych), ones that were not too research heavy since I will not have any publications, and ones that have lower quant scores on the GRE because I cannot score above a 145 after studying two years... Also, I tried not to include any that had low APA internship match rates because I understand how important that is. I considering going into a master's in counseling, but I have been passionate about clinical psych and that is why I even majored in psych. I want to have a private practice and work at a hospital doing research & treatment.

That GPA's not awful. No research experience at all or just no publications?
 

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I would axe Midwestern from the list. I have yet to see anything remotely like a solid application from there. Additionally, the WSPP has a terrible rep.
 

OneNeuroDoctor

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FIPP has a neuropsych and a forensic track. WSPP has many grads who primarily stay in Wisconsin and it was developed due to many grads from the other programs leaving Wisconsin after graduation.

Midwestern has a spirituality/psychodynamic emphasis and it is respected by people having interest in such training.
 

crazypsychstudent

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I am interested in psychodynamic but not spirituality. I do have "research experience" but not much I can put on a CV. For instance, I wrote an honor's thesis based upon my friend's independent study, am second investigator on another one of their studies right now, and am submitting my own study to the IRB this week. We are submitting our studies to SEPA for next year.
 
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crazypsychstudent

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I would check into the programs in Illinois as they are setting up combined PsyD/PA and PhD/PA programs.

PCOM
FIT
WSPP
FIPP

I would not assume that you will have increased odds of getting into PSyD program as when I applied I only received offers from new programs that were not APA accredited and my guess is that it is more difficult now.
Oh wow. I'm freaking out now! Do you mind telling me what your stats were and how many programs you applied to?
 

OneNeuroDoctor

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Oh wow. I'm freaking out now! Do you mind telling me what your stats were and how many programs you applied to?

Relax...take some deep breaths!!! I worked for 25 years as a EdS School psychologists and applied to PsyD and PhD programs in School Psych and Clinical Psych. I was non traditional mid career. I was accepted by the School Psych PhD programs and they were NASP approved but not APA accredited. I was accepted by two clinical psych PsyD programs and I went this direction as school psych was what I had done for my career and I was wanting a change.

The good PsyD program are more difficult to gain admissions than many PhD programs.
 
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erg923

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So you're saying that counseling PhDs are less competitive than clinical PhDs? And don't they favor a master's in counseling first?

Generally, slightly, yes. But I was really just trying to save you a huge student loan bill . You're welcome.
 

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Also, your research experience and GPA aren't that low. Why not apply to clinical PhD programs? As erg said, you'll likely have a higher likelihood of internship match and won't have to take out a couple hundred thousand in loans.
 
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SublimeNature

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The Chicago School of Professional Psychology

It's not on your list, and I love it there! :) Expensive as all get out, but I'm very proud of my training. Actually, in IL, I've heard that practicum and internship sites often only take our students due to our rigorous training.

Of course, I'm only speaking for the one in Chicago. They have other locations that aren't accredited and thus, sub par. TCSPP in Chicago is APA accredited.

Oh…and our EPPP rate is 80-85% for the past 3 or more years. Higher than the national average :)
 

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So you're saying that counseling PhDs are less competitive than clinical PhDs? And don't they favor a master's in counseling first?

I'd say that counseling psych PhD programs have less variance than clinical in app reqs. There are more clinical programs at the very high end of reqs for applicants, and more that take dozens upon dozens of students each year, while counseling psych programs just seem to occupy more of the middle of the curve. Your research experience is not mind-blowing but it is also not in the gutter. I agree with WN that you should apply to at least some funded programs in clin and couns.

A few counseling psych programs like masters people, but I haven't found that to be modal.
 
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Do keep in mind that Xavier is a private (Jesuit) University and tuition there is more than at public universities (such as Wright State).
 

SmithPsy24

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I went to La Salle and am currently on internship. It's a good program but if you have a strong interest in psychodynamic psychology it is definitely not the program for you. Training is almost exclusively CBT with some opportunities for DBT and problem-solving therapy. (There are a few practicum sites that offer psychodynamic training, but not many.) PCOM, as far as I know, is quite similar - very strong emphasis on CBT.
 
4

463951

I will be applying to graduate school this semester and I would like to make sure I have not left out any "good" programs. I know all of these schools are expensive, please note that is not what I am seeking feedback about. I used the Insider's Guide to select the following schools:

FIT
NOVA
MSPP
Baylor University
Rutgers University
Antioch University New England
Pacific University
Chestnut Hill College
University of Hartford
Indiana State University
Indiana University of Pennsylvania
University of Indianapolis
La Salle University
Long Island University
Loyala University Maryland
Pepperdine University
Roosevelt University
Widener University
Wright State University
Xavier University

Wright State is good.
 
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crazypsychstudent

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I went to La Salle and am currently on internship. It's a good program but if you have a strong interest in psychodynamic psychology it is definitely not the program for you. Training is almost exclusively CBT with some opportunities for DBT and problem-solving therapy. (There are a few practicum sites that offer psychodynamic training, but not many.) PCOM, as far as I know, is quite similar - very strong emphasis on CBT.
Do most students get APA internships? If not, is it simply because they limited themselves geographically or other reasons?
 

crazypsychstudent

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The Chicago School of Professional Psychology

It's not on your list, and I love it there! :) Expensive as all get out, but I'm very proud of my training. Actually, in IL, I've heard that practicum and internship sites often only take our students due to our rigorous training.

Of course, I'm only speaking for the one in Chicago. They have other locations that aren't accredited and thus, sub par. TCSPP in Chicago is APA accredited.

Oh…and our EPPP rate is 80-85% for the past 3 or more years. Higher than the national average :)
Thank you for actually answering my question and adding a school to my list! Do most student receive APA internships?
 

crazypsychstudent

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Also, your research experience and GPA aren't that low. Why not apply to clinical PhD programs? As erg said, you'll likely have a higher likelihood of internship match and won't have to take out a couple hundred thousand in loans.
I just don't feel like a PhD program would take me. I took a lot of AP classes in high school, so it looks like I've only been in college for two years. I have no posters or pubs because the studies I did happened earlier this year. I could probably get into one if a waited two years or so, but I'm trying to enter a program next fall.
 

AcronymAllergy

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I just don't feel like a PhD program would take me. I took a lot of AP classes in high school, so it looks like I've only been in college for two years. I have no posters or pubs because the studies I did happened earlier this year. I could probably get into one if a waited two years or so, but I'm trying to enter a program next fall.

I nabbed a couple interviews and an admission offer to a funded Ph.D. program without any posters or pubs; I had two years' worth of experience in two labs (no honors thesis), above-average GRE's (mid-1300's), and a mid-line GPA (3.4 cum., 4.0 psych). The only way to be absolutely sure you won't receive an offer is to not apply.
 

WisNeuro

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I just don't feel like a PhD program would take me. I took a lot of AP classes in high school, so it looks like I've only been in college for two years. I have no posters or pubs because the studies I did happened earlier this year. I could probably get into one if a waited two years or so, but I'm trying to enter a program next fall.

I got into an R1 program with 1 poster. I'd rather take a year off, get some research experience and work to get into a quality program than get into a program that will likely give me fewer opportunities and saddle me with a massive debt load. Seriously, many of my colleagues are paying off a ton of student loans while I get to max out my 401k contribution. I plan on retiring early, not working so that I can pay off my loans by the time I reach 70.
 

crazypsychstudent

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I got into an R1 program with 1 poster. I'd rather take a year off, get some research experience and work to get into a quality program than get into a program that will likely give me fewer opportunities and saddle me with a massive debt load. Seriously, many of my colleagues are paying off a ton of student loans while I get to max out my 401k contribution. I plan on retiring early, not working so that I can pay off my loans by the time I reach 70.
Congrats, but I don't want to take a year off and take that risk. A lot of people on here couldn't get in anywhere with like 3 or 4 pubs. Also, I already have 100k saved, and my fiance covers living expenses/food so I should be fine. That was why I asked for no feedback on the financial aspect. I simply wanted feedback on whether or not I left out a good PsyD program, but people on here always try to convert me to PhD...
 

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What is the risk of 1 year off? Most people actually take several off in between undergrad and grad? That 100k will go very fast in certain areas. But honestly, the money aspect is secondary if you don't get a program with solid accredited match rates and training. You may be eating that extra year or two in the internship app cycle.
 

crazypsychstudent

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What is the risk of 1 year off? Most people actually take several off in between undergrad and grad? That 100k will go very fast in certain areas. But honestly, the money aspect is secondary if you don't get a program with solid accredited match rates and training. You may be eating that extra year or two in the internship app cycle.
I mean, if I don't get into a solid PsyD program, I don't mind taking a year off.
 
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WisNeuro

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Fair enough, but why not apply to both types of programs? Increases your chances and most PhD programs are either balanced or actually heavily clinically based these days.
 

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I see no mention that there is (Catholic) Christian slant to anything that is offered within Xavier's program.
 
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Pepperdine has a pretty good rep and has about 70% match rate but my experience was that most, if not all, of the students that didn't match limited themselves geographically. They have excellent practicum placements at some of the top training facilities in the area and Pepperdine students, along with Biola and Fuller, tended to get those ahead of the Argosy and Alliants. Pepperdine is a christian school of some sort but it is not integrated into the program.

*edit* I was looking at old info for their match rate it looks like in recent years it has been higher. I am assuming this is because of the recent APA stance on APA internships becoming the standard for licensure.
 
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Since you have Indiana State on your list and asked specifically about a forensic track, I'll provide some info. I'm a current 4th year at ISU. Although we do not have a specific forensic track, we do have a faculty member who specializes in forensics, provides a course in it, and has a lab devoted to forensics research. Additionally, there is an opportunity for a 2-year paid practicum placement at a nearby prison. Hope this helps!
 

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Woah. I usually agree with Erg's advice (and think he is fantastic - really funny and smart, too) but he got you off to a SERIOUSLY bad start on this thread. You need to take his advice for what it's worth - he went to a PhD program, I believe, and therefore has a very limited view of the PsyD world. If I, as a PsyD student, were to start handing out advice on "which PhD program to attend" I would be pilloried on this site and rightfully so. So, don't blindly accept his or anyone else's biased (and, frankly, unfairly negative) thinly veiled whitewash junk about all PsyD programs. What you need to do is figure out which program and training model is the BEST FIT for YOU. Finding the best fit is crucial. Those of us who are further along and know about the match process for Internship know how difficult and how vital knowing yourself and honestly gauging the best fit really is. You have to know your limitations, your strengths, and your interests. As a person in a PsyD program that had all, except one, in a 20-some-odd cohort match at an APA-accredited site last year, don't be fooled by the old "PsyD's suck" routine. Your training is what you make of it. If you are a smart and ambitious you will get what you need. I am the first PsyD, for instance, to be awarded a prestigious APA grad student fellowship, which I am loving. I opted to take just as many research classes as a PhD student, and have a variety of mentors: one at an Ivy med school, the other at a VA with a MIRECC that matches my interests. The PsyD afforded me the freedom to do that, all while getting great clinical training. So, it is what you make it
 
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....and, to be perfectly honest I would have chopped NOVA immediately for so many reasons....until I met a good friend who went there, got an Ivy Internship which turned into an Ivy job. He worked his tail off, knows his stuff, and is a great person - and it shows!
 

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To be fair, he didn't whitewash all PsyD's. He and I have consistently defended the handful of reputable PsyD's as fine places to go. And, just because we didn't go to a PsyD doesn't mean we can't have an informed opinion here. We have access to match and pass data. Additionally, I can't speak for erg, but I at least review hundreds of apps between intern and postdoc, from a variety of programs, and I see the quality of applicant at many of these places.

As for Nova, the two programs are very different in terms of the mean applicant, I wouldn't use an anecdote to justify one over the other. I have about 40 examples from each to draw on, and they consistently favor one over the other.
 

erg923

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....and, to be perfectly honest I would have chopped NOVA immediately for so many reasons....until I met a good friend who went there, got an Ivy Internship which turned into an Ivy job. He worked his tail off, knows his stuff, and is a great person - and it shows!

Its that due to Nova, or to the person?
 

erg923

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So, it is what you make it

Thats the whole point, right? The burden is on the student in such programs. I can't justify recommending programs where one has to fight the current/"swim upstream" the whole time. Some people make it. Many don't.
 
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....and, to be perfectly honest I would have chopped NOVA immediately for so many reasons....until I met a good friend who went there, got an Ivy Internship which turned into an Ivy job. He worked his tail off, knows his stuff, and is a great person - and it shows!

Cost and cohort size continue to be why NOVA should be cut from most/all lists. The education can be pretty good, as they regularly place their top students in well respected internships/post-docs/jobs…but you need to be in the top quartile and you need to find a way to afford it. I tried to minimize loans (and attended when the tuition was 40-50% less) and it still saddled me w. significant debt. Money/loans matter a great deal when they follow you for the next 15-20+ yrs.
 

Peacemaker36

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I appreciate erg's point: PsyD students need to be well above average to achieve outcomes that average students at average PhD programs routinely achieve (e.g., working at a VA). And certain outcomes are for all intents and purposes not possible for PsyD students (e.g., tenure-track positions at universities).

I also agree with what Hope4Grad is saying. The field of psychology has grown and changed substantially. The majority of PsyD students seem to enter a PsyD program because their career goal is to set up a private practice and/or to work in a less competitive specialty (e.g., school psychology). Many of these students lack the credentials (e.g., GRE, GPA) to be accepted into a competitive research program, and most do not have interest in the scientist-practitioner model. So the composition of grad students overall has changed. Is that unacceptable? Is it unacceptable that so many immigrants have come to America and changed the composition of our country? (By the way, why do we still celebrate Columbus Day?)

The match rate issue is a straw man because many states do not require an APA-accredited internship. Is the debt load unacceptable? Not for the many PsyD students who have wealthy families or rich partners. Even for the students who go into massive debt, the trade-off can be acceptable because practicing therapy does have the potential to payoff financially when compared to other jobs they might enjoy.

Some PsyD programs seem predatory. The government should probably not support these schools (or tier 3 and 4 law schools, etc.) with federal loans. The judgment of students applying to these schools is questionable, and maybe we as a society have some obligation to protect them from themselves. But this is a hotly contested philosophical debate about individual autonomy that I will leave to the politicians.

Saying that only three PsyD programs are respectable is a gross exaggeration that simplifies reality but grossly distorts it. It's all or nothing thinking. And I think it's important that lurkers on this site understand that the majority of psychologists in the field have a more nuanced view.
 
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If you truly don't care about the cost (...though you might want to think about how it will feel to go from having a comfortable cushion of savings to having to repay med-school level debt on 1/3 of a physician's salary...), then your biggest concern is the reputation of your program. Are you sure everything on that list has a decent APA-internship match rate? APA and APPIC are not the same. You will not be competitive for the kind of job you want if you graduate from an uncompetitive program. If getting into a good program is really worth it to you, then it will be worth taking another year or two to gain research experience. You can take the time now, or you can take the time later--in the form of, potentially, not getting matched for internship and trouble getting post-doc hours.
 
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erg923

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The match rate issue is a straw man because many states do not require an APA-accredited internship. Is the debt load unacceptable?

Is that why internships are peer reviewed and accredited by the governing body of this profession, so we can get licensed? Others might argue that there are other, larger purposes for accreditation AND that attending unaccredited internship programs limits ones employment options and competitiveness in the job market. And yes, even in private practice.
 
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Peacemaker36

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Is that why internships are peer reviewed and accredited by the governing body of this profession, so we can get licensed? Others might argue that there are other, larger purposes for accreditation AND that attending unaccredited internship programs limits ones employment options and competitiveness in the job market. And yes, even in private practice.

I completely agree that APA-accredited internships are an important basic standard. I'm just commenting on the fact that if one doesn't have an APA, they still do fine in private practice. Until/unless insurance companies make APA-internships a requirement for being impaneled, it's not true that a private practice psychologist needs to have one to be successful.

I hear you, erg. I would advise any trainee that they ought to get an APA internship even if it's not a requirement of their graduate program. It's better for the field, better for their patients, better for themselves. But I also recognize that it's not (yet) a necessary credential. At least not in the Northeast.
 

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I completely agree that APA-accredited internships are an important basic standard. I'm just commenting on the fact that if one doesn't have an APA, they still do fine in private practice. Until/unless insurance companies make APA-internships a requirement for being impaneled, it's not true that a private practice psychologist needs to have one to be successful.

I hear you, erg. I would advise any trainee that they ought to get an APA internship even if it's not a requirement of their graduate program. It's better for the field, better for their patients, better for themselves. But I also recognize that it's not (yet) a necessary credential. At least not in the Northeast.

It's kind of a requirement in some areas. At least in MN, you cannot bill for certain npsych services if you are not board certified. If you did not go to an APA internship, you will have a difficult time getting boarded. There is a push, especially in the subfields, to expand practices such as these. I would just caution against advising that non-accredited will be just fine, because I can easily see the landscape changing for the worse for these individuals.
 
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