LizzyM Calculation Help

[newdoc44]

In calculating my LizzyM score for use in school selection, is it OK to use my science GPA if it is higher than my cumulative GPA? @LizzyM

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Toutie]

In calculating my LizzyM score for use in school selection, is it OK to use my science GPA if it is higher than my cumulative GPA? @LizzyM

Sure, and you should also use your best full length practice MCAT test score instead of the real thing. You'll end up with a MUCH higher LizzyM that way.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Sure, and you should also use your best full length practice MCAT test score instead of the real thing. You'll end up with a MUCH higher LizzyM that way.

 

[newdoc44]

Sure, and you should also use your best full length practice MCAT test score instead of the real thing. You'll end up with a MUCH higher LizzyM that way.

AAMC Survey on admissions metrics importance lists BCPM GPA above cumulative, so it seems like a legitimate question although not sure if the order they are listed is pertinent in that survey. Obviously the question is irrelevant if they are drastically different. The question also seems relevant due to it being at least slightly more rare to have a higher BCPM than cumulative when there is a difference between the two. Thanks for the help though.

 

[bannie22]

obviously not. cGPA >>> sGPA

slightly more rare? lols...

 

[PreMedMissteps]

In calculating my LizzyM score for use in school selection, is it OK to use my science GPA if it is higher than my cumulative GPA? @LizzyM

Are you an engineering major? I've only seen engineering majors who have a higher science GPA than a cum GPA.

 

[Dox4lyfe]

obviously not. cGPA >>> sGPA

slightly more rare? lols...

Incorrect. OP is correct when he/she says that sGPA is seen as more important than cumGPA for the majority of US MD schools. However, I always recommend to underestimate as opposed to overestimating when it comes to anything like this. For this reason, I'd use your cumGPA.

 

[Dox4lyfe]

Are you an engineering major? I've only seen engineering majors who have a higher science GPA than a cum GPA.

Or computer science majors at hardcore stem schools.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Or computer science majors at hardcore stem schools.

True. I tend to dump CS majors in with the eng'g majors.

 

[newdoc44]

However, I always recommend to underestimate as opposed to overestimating when it comes to anything like this. For this reason, I'd use your cumGPA.

True, this is a good point/ way to look at it. Thanks

 

[PreMedMissteps]

True, this is a good point/ way to look at it. Thanks

And when using the LizzyM, I've noticed that unless you limit the + or - for MCAT to about 2, you get too many reaches. Of course, no matter what, you'll likely get a bunch of OOS publics listed, so eliminate most of them, unless you have a tie and/or they accept many OOS and your MCAT is strong for the school.

 

[newdoc44]

Are you an engineering major? I've only seen engineering majors who have a higher science GPA than a cum GPA.

Started out non-science major (very easy major) and did not do good in the very beginning. Much more success after switching to the science major for a variety of reasons. This is the reason for the difference between the two. The science GPA is also reflective of the cGPA from the point of the major switch on (i.e. using it in LizzyM calculation instead also helps account for boost due to trend).

 

[Govols22]

I majored in exercise science and have a higher sGPA than cGPA. I aced all my BCPM classes but got B's in History and a couple of my exercise sciences classes.

 

[Dox4lyfe]

Started out non-science major (very easy major) and did not do good in the very beginning. Much more success after switching to the science major for a variety of reasons. This is the reason for the difference between the two. The science GPA is also reflective of the cGPA from the point of the major switch on (i.e. using it in LizzyM calculation instead also helps account for boost due to trend).

The LizzyM score has certain limitations with one of them being a large upwards trend. If you want a more "accurate" way to create your school list, I'd use WedgeDawg's Applicant Rating System (Updated Jan 2017) which builds upon the LizzyM score.

 

[Govols22]

The LizzyM score has certain limitations with one of them being a large upwards trend. If you want a more "accurate" way to create your school list, I'd use WedgeDawg's Applicant Rating System (Updated Jan 2017) which builds upon the LizzyM score.

The Wars does a lot of good things, but it has limitations as well.

For example, a student with the following...

4.0 GPA
514 MCAT
Slight Research Experience
Moderate Clinical Experience
A lot Shadowing
Moderate Volunteering
Moderate Leadership experience
No Interesting hobbies
No Upward trend
White

Would get a score of 59 and be under the apply only to DO category. But this is just a unique case.

 

[Lawpy]

The LizzyM score has certain limitations with one of them being a large upwards trend. If you want a more "accurate" way to create your school list, I'd use WedgeDawg's Applicant Rating System (Updated Jan 2017) which builds upon the LizzyM score.

WARS has even more severe flaws compared to LizzyM score. WARS doesn't apply to MD/PhD and DO programs, whereas LizzyM score freely does. WARS relies heavily on conservative self-reporting on experience quality, whereas LizzyM scores are based on objective data (GPA and MCAT). WARS fails with severe intra-GPA discrepancies (low GPA in undergrad but high GPA in SMP). LizzyM scores account for upward trends by listing the cGPA from recent several semesters rather than overall cGPA. WARS is based on a complicated formula with arbitrary weights, whereas LizzyM scores can be done mentally since it's a simple memorable expression. You can craft school lists by comparing your LizzyM score with school's LizzyM score +/- 2, while WARS gives a limited school list based on conservative self-reporting.

So if anything, LizzyM scores are more accurate (and definitely a lot easier to use) than WARS seeing that WARS suffers from major problems by trying to quantify subjective aspects of the application while also failing at low GPA/high MCAT discrepancies. WARS is a nice tool but i'd just craft school lists using LizzyM scores and the MSAR and ask on WAMC for some fine tuning.

 

[newdoc44]

Thanks for the constructive responses!

 

[ChymeofPassion]

The Wars does a lot of good things, but it has limitations as well.

For example, a student with the following...

4.0 GPA
514 GPA
Slight Research Experience
Moderate Clinical Experience
A lot Shadowing
Moderate Volunteering
Moderate Leadership experience
No Interesting hobbies
No Upward trend
White

Would get a score of 59 and be under the apply only to DO category. But this is just a unique case.

Not to mention that if that person had ab upward trend up to a 3.9, they would somehow be more competitive than a 4.0

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

True. I tend to dump CS majors in with the eng'g majors.

TRIGGERED

 

[Inspired Chaos]

.

 

[cactusman]

True. I tend to dump CS majors in with the eng'g majors.

TRIGGERED

My college only offers CS through the College of Engineering and does not cross list CS coursework under Arts & Sciences.
THERE, I SAID IT

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

My college only offers CS through the College of Engineering and does not cross list CS coursework under Arts & Sciences.
THERE, I SAID IT

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

 

[mwsapphire]

The Wars does a lot of good things, but it has limitations as well.

For example, a student with the following...

4.0 GPA
514 MCAT
Slight Research Experience
Moderate Clinical Experience
A lot Shadowing
Moderate Volunteering
Moderate Leadership experience
No Interesting hobbies
No Upward trend
White

Would get a score of 59 and be under the apply only to DO category. But this is just a unique case.

And that's infuriating because DO students have the same EC's as MD students it's the numbers that are the main difference, mainly the MCAT score.

WARS has even more severe flaws compared to LizzyM score. WARS doesn't apply to MD/PhD and DO programs, whereas LizzyM score freely does. WARS relies heavily on conservative self-reporting on experience quality, whereas LizzyM scores are based on objective data (GPA and MCAT). WARS fails with severe intra-GPA discrepancies (low GPA in undergrad but high GPA in SMP). LizzyM scores account for upward trends by listing the cGPA from recent several semesters rather than overall cGPA. WARS is based on a complicated formula with arbitrary weights, whereas LizzyM scores can be done mentally since it's a simple memorable expression. You can craft school lists by comparing your LizzyM score with school's LizzyM score +/- 2, while WARS gives a limited school list based on conservative self-reporting.

So if anything, LizzyM scores are more accurate (and definitely a lot easier to use) than WARS seeing that WARS suffers from major problems by trying to quantify subjective aspects of the application while also failing at low GPA/high MCAT discrepancies. WARS is a nice tool but i'd just craft school lists using LizzyM scores and the MSAR and ask on WAMC for some fine tuning.

What? I didn't know LizzyM scores did that?
I thought the one flaw with LizzyM scores was that UW trends were not taken into account? I thought it's done with cGPA am I missing something?

 

[mwsapphire]

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Why is that infuriating? Are you a CS or engineering major? I think CS is a bit softer than engineering, kind of like E Sc is softer than Bio, but I wouldn't be offended if E Sci majors were bumper in with me.

 

[Lawpy]

What? I didn't know LizzyM scores did that?
I thought the one flaw with LizzyM scores was that UW trends were not taken into account? I thought it's done with cGPA am I missing something?

It's a correction suggested by @gonnif when advising people with low cGPA/high MCAT scores. The low cGPA becomes misleading when it is supported by a strong upward trend across several recent semesters.

In calculating my LizzyM score for use in school selection, is it OK to use my science GPA if it is higher than my cumulative GPA? @LizzyM

Forgot to answer this. LizzyM scores are defined in terms of cGPA. This makes sense because cGPA takes into account of the overall academic profile. Many schools recommend or require taking non-science courses (in the social sciences and humanities), so the cGPA becomes important as opposed to sGPA that's more restricted to biology/chemistry/physics/math.

Also the survey cited lists sGPA to be more important than MCAT scores. I'd only use the survey to understand general trends (like which categories are of high vs medium vs low importance rankings), because each school has its own internal formula for evaluating applications and may in fact prioritize cGPA over sGPA and have other interests.

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

Why is that infuriating? Are you a CS or engineering major? I think CS is a bit softer than engineering, kind of like E Sc is softer than Bio, but I wouldn't be offended if E Sci majors were bumper in with me.

It's infuriating because computer science is not engineering. It has nothing to do with engineering. On a purely theoretical basis, computer science has more to do with math then with engineering (feel free to look at any older computer faculty at your school's CV as good proof). It's not softer or harder then engineering (though I would agree that in most schools engineering is more difficult).

It's a similar mistake to that of thinking that computer science is about programming.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

It's infuriating because computer science is not engineering. It has nothing to do with engineering. On a purely theoretical basis, computer science has more to do with math then with engineering (feel free to look at any older computer faculty at your school's CV as good proof). It's not softer or harder then engineering (though I would agree that in most schools engineering is more difficult).

It's a similar mistake to that of thinking that computer science is about programming.

Lol...did not mean to offend your sensibilities. I only lump them together because many univs have both CS and Eng'g in the same college. Yes, I know that some put CS in A&S, and some have CS in both (with their A&S version being CS-lite).

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Understand what an adcom is trying to do in this situation. Your are being evaluated to judge your academic qualifications for medical school and your potential for academic success in the difficult curriculum ahead. Therefore, what your current abilities are will carry more weight than your past abilities, hence why the common bad freshman year is only a moderate issue to adcom, not a major death knell to your application. An adcom can infer that an upward grade trend or recent postbacc performance is more indicative of the applicant's academic qualifications than earlier work. According to a survey of medical school admissions, these are the academic factors in ranked order that med schools reported as importance, which grade trend is just behind MCAT and BCPM

Highest Importance: sGPA (BCPM), MCAT total score, Up/Down Grade Trends, Performance in PostBacc, UG Selectivity (private medical schools only)
Medium Importance: On schedule to meet premed coursework, uGPA,
Lowest Importance: Challenging nonscience courses, UG Selectivity (public schools only)


View attachment 221611

I know the attachment shows that UG Selectivity is considered by privates. Just how selective do they want? Between the top 100 national univs, the top 50 or so LACs, the 100 univs that are top in the regional categories, and the top 50 or so in the Baccalaureate category, that's still a lot of schools.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Rule 1: Take a Breath

I will give the absolute answer on that: it doesnt matter.

Even if I were to have some definitive on how a specific school will consider selectivity, are you going to change where you apply? You are trying to get some absolute specific answer that can only be thought of generally. It varies by 140+ school and likely by thousands of adcom evaluators for that matter. There is no master list defining this and any opinion on here is purely speculation that will do nothing but feed your premed neurosis. There is nothing that you can do to somehow influence this. You have your GPA and you have your UG school. So quit wasting your time, energy and focus on something that you cannot change and put it towards secondaries, reading in detail, each school's website, and continuing to enhance your application even during this glide/application year. With 60% of applicants ultimately rejected, every applicant must assume that they will be a reapplicant, and thus improve their application so that they can be a better candidate next cycle.

I absolutely agree.

 

[Goro]

Understand what an adcom is trying to do in this situation. Your are being evaluated to judge your academic qualifications for medical school and your potential for academic success in the difficult curriculum ahead. Therefore, what your current abilities are will carry more weight than your past abilities, hence why the common bad freshman year is only a moderate issue to adcom, not a major death knell to your application. An adcom can infer that an upward grade trend or recent postbacc performance is more indicative of the applicant's academic qualifications than earlier work. According to a survey of medical school admissions, these are the academic factors in ranked order that med schools reported as importance, which grade trend is just behind MCAT and BCPM

Highest Importance: sGPA (BCPM), MCAT total score, Up/Down Grade Trends, Performance in PostBacc, UG Selectivity (private medical schools only)
Medium Importance: On schedule to meet premed coursework, uGPA,
Lowest Importance: Challenging nonscience courses, UG Selectivity (public schools only)


View attachment 221611

One of the things I place a very high emphasis on is a rising GPA trend, whether for our med school, or our SMP. This is why I always say that the you of now is more important than the you of then. A number of MD schools state on their admissions website that they place more weight on the last 2-3 years of GPA, rather than the cGPA itself.

 

[mwsapphire]

It's a correction suggested by @gonnif when advising people with low cGPA/high MCAT scores. The low cGPA becomes misleading when it is supported by a strong upward trend across several recent semesters.



Forgot to answer this. LizzyM scores are defined in terms of cGPA. This makes sense because cGPA takes into account of the overall academic profile. Many schools recommend or require taking non-science courses (in the social sciences and humanities), so the cGPA becomes important as opposed to sGPA that's more restricted to biology/chemistry/physics/math.

Also the survey cited lists sGPA to be more important than MCAT scores. I'd only use the survey to understand general trends (like which categories are of high vs medium vs low importance rankings), because each school has its own internal formula for evaluating applications and may in fact prioritize cGPA over sGPA and have other interests.

WoooAhhhh! So hypothetically, If I apply after junior year ,( which is unlikely) , it seems like my GPA with freshman year and w/o freshman year will be two very different values. Would it make more sense to calculate LizzyM with soph and junior year only? (I know this is really premature I'm just super curious b/c I did not know this, it makes me feel better about my weak freshman year.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Toutie]

One of the things I place a very high emphasis on is a rising GPA trend, whether for our med school, or our SMP. This is why I always say that the you of now is more important than the you of then. A number of MD schools state on their admissions website that they place more weight on the last 203 years of GPA, rather than the cGPA itself.

Dang, it's getting harder than ever to get into med school.

 

[Lawpy]

WoooAhhhh! So hypothetically, If I apply after junior year ,( which is unlikely) , it seems like my GPA with freshman year and w/o freshman year will be two very different values. Would it make more sense to calculate LizzyM with soph and junior year only? (I know this is really premature I'm just super curious b/c I did not know this, it makes me feel better about my weak freshman year.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

I think it also depends on the number of years involved. Say someone who went to college initially and messed up, then spent several years off doing something and recently returned to college and excelled. In this case, the recent years matter more heavily but that doesn't mean the initial poor years are ignored.

In your case, it's only 3 years so all grades are considered recent. A 3.0 freshman year followed by 4.0 in sophomore and junior years will have a 3.67 overall assuming equal credits taken per year. The overall GPA is factored in as opposed to ignoring freshman year completely.

 

[mwsapphire]

I think it also depends on the number of years involved. Say someone who went to college initially and messed up, then spent several years off doing something and recently returned to college and excelled. In this case, the recent years matter more heavily but that doesn't mean the initial poor years are ignored.

In your case, it's only 3 years so all grades are considered recent. A 3.0 freshman year followed by 4.0 in sophomore and junior years will have a 3.67 overall assuming equal credits taken per year. The overall GPA is factored in as opposed to ignoring freshman year completely.

Dammit. Oh well most schools reward UW trends and place more emphasis on last 30 credits anyway ( at least my state school and BU).


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[newdoc44]

One of the things I place a very high emphasis on is a rising GPA trend, whether for our med school, or our SMP. This is why I always say that the you of now is more important than the you of then. A number of MD schools state on their admissions website that they place more weight on the last 2-3 years of GPA, rather than the cGPA itself.

Can I PM you regarding this and a specific question?

 

[Goro]

Can I PM you regarding this and a specific question?

Sure!

 

[rabbott1971]

Understand what an adcom is trying to do in this situation. Your are being evaluated to judge your academic qualifications for medical school and your potential for academic success in the difficult curriculum ahead. Therefore, what your current abilities are will carry more weight than your past abilities, hence why the common bad freshman year is only a moderate issue to adcom, not a major death knell to your application. An adcom can infer that an upward grade trend or recent postbacc performance is more indicative of the applicant's academic qualifications than earlier work. According to a survey of medical school admissions, these are the academic factors in ranked order that med schools reported as importance, which grade trend is just behind MCAT and BCPM

Highest Importance: sGPA (BCPM), MCAT total score, Up/Down Grade Trends, Performance in PostBacc, UG Selectivity (private medical schools only)
Medium Importance: On schedule to meet premed coursework, uGPA,
Lowest Importance: Challenging nonscience courses, UG Selectivity (public schools only)


View attachment 221611

@gonnif I have seen this list of adcom priorities before and wondered about "legacy." I definitely understand it is quite low on the priorities. But, for the state MD school I'm applying to, I have a degree from the school, and also my father got his MD there. I guess with the low tier of "legacy," all it might do is distinguish me from another applicant with nearly my same qualifications, but never actually boost me over someone else with higher grades or MCAT. I was curious what benefit it might give if any.

 

[Dox4lyfe]

Highest Importance: sGPA (BCPM), MCAT total score, Up/Down Grade Trends, Performance in PostBacc, UG Selectivity (private medical schools only)
Medium Importance: On schedule to meet premed coursework, uGPA,
Lowest Importance: Challenging nonscience courses, UG Selectivity (public schools only)


View attachment 221611

This is the 2013 survey. The 2015 survey is slightly different.