LizzyM Score

[Handinhand]

Hey there folks!

I just wanted to ask a quick question about LizzyM scores. No, I'm not going to ask a "if I have a 72 LizzyM score and I apply to a 68 should I get in to that school?" question. I am just curious to hear from some people who have recently applied, or hopefully even LizzyM herself, if the LizzyM score system of cGPA(10) + MCAT + 1 is still an accurate tool to use to predict receiving an interview from a school? I am going to be applying soon and I'd love to know if I can use this to select proper schools for me to apply to. Does the score breakdown with high MCAT/low GPA situations? For instance, I have a 36S, and will have around a 3.5 when I apply in a month, giving me a LizzyM of 72. Also, what kind of +/- range from your score should you use when selecting reach/match/safety schools?

Cheers!

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[NickNaylor]

Just use the MSAR stats. Like many things, the LizzyM score is a tool that should give you an idea of what to expect. In theory it'll always be somewhat useful as long as you're using recent data. I don't see why that would no longer be the case.

 

[FlowRate]

LizzyM score is good for figuring out if you'll be likely to get an interview at a place (50% correlation IMO). Not useful for much else.

 

[Mazdave]

It's also most useful when your stats are closer to median rather than towards the fringes (in either direction). A Lower GPA/High MCAT situation tends to overinflate your chances (I'm pretty sure that UCLA and Penn are not my "safety" schools).

 

[LizzyM]

Frankly, I'd change that +1 to a -1. From there, I'd say a point either side of this modified LizzyM is targetiabove that s reach, less than is "better odds" but for those in the strastosphere (modified LizzyM >77) schools that are much below your target are going to think you are B.S.'ing them when you apply.

 

[Longshanks]

If your MCAT vs GPA is unbalanced, it's not that accurate of an indicator for interview invites either. That has been my experience.

Still, I think it is useful for figuring out which range of schools to apply to. Just don't expect much out of it. There is so much more involved in the admissions process, even for just getting an interview.

edit: Mazdave beat me to it. But that's what I'm reiterating then, that it can over inflate your chances if you have a high mcat/low gpa. I can't comment on high gpa/low mcat.. but based on school specific threads, it seems that unbalanced pairing has done better.

 

[PrettyFishy]

my LizzyM score is a 75 under the regime the OP posted.

the only schools that I was able to get into are the state schools back in my home state of TX. Even Baylor didn't want me


LizzyM score may help predict interviews, but not acceptances

the #1 word used to describe the med school application process is :

CRAPSHOOT

have fun

 

[Mazdave]

Frankly, I'd change that +1 to a -1. From there, I'd say a point either side of this modified LizzyM is targetiabove that s reach, less than is "better odds" but for those in the strastosphere (modified LizzyM >77) schools that are much below your target are going to think you are B.S.'ing them when you apply.

So then, what would be a better way for someone with the lower GPA/high MCAT combo (like the OP) to go about selecting schools, since the schools that are more of a fit GPA-wise tend to have LizzyM scores well below yours?

 

[PrettyFishy]

So then, what would be a better way for someone with the lower GPA/high MCAT combo (like the OP) to go about selecting schools, since the schools that are more of a fit GPA-wise tend to have LizzyM scores well below yours?

Apply broadly-to both schools that have a LizzyM score less, "on target" and reaches. If your GPA is less than a 3.8, you should load up on the "safeties"

Research the schools and see what schools are a "good fit" for your interests. If you're interested in research, might as well apply to a few research-friendly schools. ditto if you're interested in primary care. Basically you want to have good reasons for wanting to go to ABC SOM

Keep in mind this is advice coming from a 2015er, so take it with a grain of salt

EDIT: Forgot the #1 thing: Apply to schools where you have the in-state advantage!

 

[obgyny]

My LizzyM score is 68.9 (high GPA/low MCAT). I got 3 interviews with LizzyM scores of 69, 68, and 65.9.

68 = rejected
69 = accepted
65.9 = ? (I didn't attend this last interview)

Not too shabby as a predictor .

I used the LizzyM scores as more of a guideline for picking out schools, just to get an idea of where to start. Your school selection should not be entirely based on these scores! As PrettyFishy mentioned above, look into state residency, location, schools with your interests, etc.

(these scores were from a spreadsheet)

 

[Mazdave]

Apply broadly-to both schools that have a LizzyM score less, "on target" and reaches. If your GPA is less than a 3.8, you should load up on the "safeties"

Research the schools and see what schools are a "good fit" for your interests. If you're interested in research, might as well apply to a few research-friendly schools. ditto if you're interested in primary care. Basically you want to have good reasons for wanting to go to ABC SOM

Keep in mind this is advice coming from a 2015er, so take it with a grain of salt

EDIT: Forgot the #1 thing: Apply to schools where you have the in-state advantage!

Thanks, although my question more related to what LizzyM alluded to above, namely that a school where you may fit GPA-wise might think that you are "B.S. 'ing" them by applying with an MCAT-inflated LizzyM that is well above theirs. When your GPA is low for the schools suggested by your LizzyM, but your LizzyM is much higher than those of the schools where your GPA is more competitive, is there a better answer than just "apply broadly"?

 

[Handinhand]

Frankly, I'd change that +1 to a -1. From there, I'd say a point either side of this modified LizzyM is targetiabove that s reach, less than is "better odds" but for those in the strastosphere (modified LizzyM >77) schools that are much below your target are going to think you are B.S.'ing them when you apply.

Do you feel this +/- 1 either side of your Modified LizzyM as target, over that is a reach, breaks down with a situation as mine? I'm not interested in the score as much as I am just an accurate way to figure out where to apply to. I have a steep upward trend since freshman year ( 3.0 Freshman year, if you just took sophomore, junior and senior year my GPA would be more around 3.75).

 

[quepatho]

When I applied two years ago, it was reasonably accurate. I got interviews from all the places that the LizzyM score indicated I would have a shot at, and was accepted to about half of the places I chose to interview (I didn't go to all of the interviews).

Caution: Data is anecdotal and two years old.

 

[LRAccord624]

More anecdotal data: My LizzyM score was a 67. I was accepted by multiple schools with scores in the 70's. Obviously there was a lot more than GPA and MCAT involved in their decisions.

I think that the situation you described, +1/-1 target schools, under=safety, over=reach is a good scale to use while deciding where to apply. Always apply to a few safeties, especially since your MCAT inflates your LizzyM score. And if you can afford it, definitely apply to a couple of reaches. You never know what will happen.

 

[LizzyM]

Do you feel this +/- 1 either side of your Modified LizzyM as target, over that is a reach, breaks down with a situation as mine? I'm not interested in the score as much as I am just an accurate way to figure out where to apply to. I have a steep upward trend since freshman year ( 3.0 Freshman year, if you just took sophomore, junior and senior year my GPA would be more around 3.75).

If your mdapps is accurate, you have a 75% chance of getting admitted somewhere. Avoid making a list that excludes all but top 20 school and/or OOS schools with a strong instate preference and you should be golden.

 

[bobow98]

The LizzyM is quite accurate:

For example this cycle I applied with a 70 LizzyM score and got 2 interviews from schools with a 72, 3 from a 71, and 1 from a 70. I also got 4 69's, 3 68's and 1 67. I applied to 7 places above a 72 total score and got a grand total of ZERO interviews from them.


My friend applied with a 72 total score and he got interviews at 4 Ivies (dartmouth and brown not included), Duke, Case UP and CCLCM, and others with pretty high scores. I'm guessing most of these schools have a 3.8/36 accepted set of stats so that's a 74 or so.

I think it's safe to say that it's basically your LM score plus minus 2 or 3 points for your range of expected interviews.

 

[Handinhand]

If your mdapps is accurate, you have a 75% chance of getting admitted somewhere. Avoid making a list that excludes all but top 20 school and/or OOS schools with a strong instate preference and you should be golden.

Thanks for your help. I was not planning on applying to many Top 20 schools; I would say my big reach school is going to be UCSF, as well as OHSU and UW. Based off only LizzyM/MSAR data, UCSF is only the real reach, but I know OOS factors and UW's prestige is going to make the other two big reaches as well.

 

[FlowRate]

On the high end, I applied with a LM score of 78ish and got interviews at 10 of 18 schools. Of that, straight accepted at 2, WL'd at 5, rejected at 1, and didn't attend 2.

Higher than 74ish, I think EC's matter a lot more than more LM points. My research and volunteering was weak compared to the schools I applied at.

 

[BrainBuff]

higher than 74ish, i think ec's matter a lot more than more lm points.

+1

 

[Narmerguy]

+1

Yeah me agree.

 

[caligrrl]

My LizzyM score was 72 (high MCAT/low GPA).

The LizzyM scores for the schools to which I received interviews were: 72, 72, 74, 73, 73, 71, 71, 73, 73, 75, 71, 75, 75. I declined a handful of those interviews.

The LizzyM scores for the schools to which I was accepted were: 73, 73, 71, 73, 75, 71 (and 2 waitlists right now for 75 and 71).

So all and all, I would says it's even more accurate than I realized before compiling all of this...Hope that helps someone!

 

[UMICHPremed]

What do people mean by LizzyM score inflation with MCAT? Doesn't that imply that GPA is weighted more than the MCAT? (When in actuality there is no agreement that medical schools in general adopt this stance, and their weight is school specific)

So are you saying that a LizzyM score of 73 is better to have come from GPA 3.8 MCAT 35 than GPA 3.6 MCAT 37...

 

[NickNaylor]

What do people mean by LizzyM score inflation with MCAT? Doesn't that imply that GPA is weighted more than the MCAT? (When in actuality there is no agreement that medical schools in general adopt this stance, and their weight is school specific)

So are you saying that a LizzyM score of 73 is better to have come from GPA 3.8 MCAT 35 than GPA 3.6 MCAT 37...

Let's not get into that discussion. It's been done ad nauseum.

 

[coffeekid15]

The averages in the MSAR are for admitted students, right? So matriculating student averages would actually be lower, making the MSAR LizzyM score slightly inflated, no?

 

[Handinhand]

Yes, I just looked at the most recent MSAR and it says that published medians were compiled from accepted students. I'd imagine that would mean that middle ranked schools would have slightly inflated numbers because competitive applicants will interview there as a safety school, with no intention on matriculating unless accepted nowhere else.

 

[Frazier]

Yes, I just looked at the most recent MSAR and it says that published medians were compiled from accepted students. I'd imagine that would mean that middle ranked schools would have slightly inflated numbers because competitive applicants will interview there as a safety school, with no intention on matriculating unless accepted nowhere else.

I think that MSAR = accepted.
US News = matriculated.

 

[LizzyM]

You can usually find data about matriculants on the school's website in "information about our students."

 

[dbeast]

You can usually find data about matriculants on the school's website in "information about our students."

Okay, who's gonna man up and check out all 144 med school websites and compile averages of matriculants? I say we rock paper scissors for it.

 

[Handinhand]

I've checked, and not every school publishes that data on their website.

To those in the know, what is your cutoff of % OOS interviewed/accepted for a school that makes you consider it OOS friendly? My state school, UW-Madison, seems abnormally friendly to OOSers for a state school; anybody know of any other state schools that are friendly to OOSers?

 

[UMICHPremed]

All the private schools...
Ohio State, UMich, Vermont, and UMinn are the ones that come to mind. All of them fill their class with approximately 50% OOS.

 

[Longshanks]

I've checked, and not every school publishes that data on their website.

To those in the know, what is your cutoff of % OOS interviewed/accepted for a school that makes you consider it OOS friendly? My state school, UW-Madison, seems abnormally friendly to OOSers for a state school; anybody know of any other state schools that are friendly to OOSers?

SUNYs are incredibly OOS friendly (by "incredibly" this is comparatively to other state schools, though 30-40% may not be "incredible" by some standards). Based on MSAR, Illinois seems to take a decent amount of OOS as well.

 

[Jesse87]

.

 

[NickNaylor]

SUNYs are incredibly OOS friendly (by "incredibly" this is comparatively to other state schools, though 30-40% may not be "incredible" by some standards). Based on MSAR, Illinois seems to take a decent amount of OOS as well.

Michigan is reasonably OOS-friendly.

 

[Jesse87]

Does anyone have the latest version I can download?
Thanks!

 

[NickNaylor]

Does anyone have the latest version I can download?
Thanks!

Thank you for posting the same message within 13 minutes.

 

[rafflecopter]

LizzyM score of 69.3

Received acceptance from school of LizzyM score of 69, interviews from schools of LizzyM scores of 73, 75, and 69 x 2 so I would say its not a bad predictor.

 

[medman90]

Guys, are we supposed to use median or average MCAT/GPA scores when calculating the LizzyM number?

 

[LizzyM]

Guys, are we supposed to use median or average MCAT/GPA scores when calculating the LizzyM number?

If there is a choice, use median but if not average (mean) will work.

 

[raltima07]

If there is a choice, use median but if not average (mean) will work.

Thanks

 

[Donald Juan]

What do people mean by LizzyM score inflation with MCAT? Doesn't that imply that GPA is weighted more than the MCAT? (When in actuality there is no agreement that medical schools in general adopt this stance, and their weight is school specific)

So are you saying that a LizzyM score of 73 is better to have come from GPA 3.8 MCAT 35 than GPA 3.6 MCAT 37...

No, you're example isn't extreme enough to get the point.

Candidate A has a 4.0 GPA and a 33 mcat, score a 73.

Candidate B has a 3.0 GPA and a 43 mcat, score 73.

Who do you think has the better chance? It's not that GPA necessarily weighs more, but mcat has a higher range to go above the average scores, so it can inflate someones lizzym score if they have a ridiculously high mcat, while a perfect gpa only raises someones score slightly above the average.

 

[NightGod]

Based on MSAR, Illinois seems to take a decent amount of OOS as well.

This is because Illinois is quickly becoming one of the worst places in the country to live and work (not an exaggeration, in five years we went from the 8th best state in the nation for business to 48th, basically every other economic marker fell about the same in that time frame) and the state is so broke they don't pay the schools on time, if at all. At least with an OOS student you aren't waiting on a check from the state that might never come. Seriously, I live in Illinois and all of my apps to schools here I'm going to consider safety schools. I will go anywhere else if I can.

 

[sexycani]

If there is a choice, use median but if not average (mean) will work.

just curious, but what's the rationale behind this?

 

[Long Way to Go]

just curious, but what's the rationale behind this?

It takes 6 students with a 3.7 to offset one non-trad accepted with a 3.0, 41 MCAT, and life experience and bring the average GPA up to 3.6. That kind of skewing affect doesn't really affect the median GPA as much.

In other words, not a normal distribution of GPAs.

 

[JESSFALLING]

Here's my take on a modified LizzyM scoring system. (These adjustments should be made ONLY to your individual stats, and then compared to your target schools' standard LizzyM scores.)

Assuming* GPA deserves higher weight in some cases, you could slightly modify the formula like this:

Your standard LizzyM score PLUS
-3.0 if cGPA <3.0
-2.0 if cGPA <3.2
-1.0 if cGPA <3.4
-0.5 if cGPA <3.6
+0 if cGPA > or = 3.6
+1.0 if cGPA > or = 3.8
+1.5 if cGPA > or = 3.95

Thus, 3.8 cGPA with 35 = 75
AND 3.6 cGPA with 37 = 74
AND 3.3 cGPA with 40 = 73
(Previously these would have all yielded identical scores)

You should also adjust for outliers (low side only) in MCAT scoring:
-4 if MCAT <27 (if you're here...you should be retaking)
-3 if MCAT <28
-2 if MCAT <29
-1 if MCAT <30

Thus, 4.0 cGPA with 26 = 64.5 (includes MCAT & GPA adjustments)
AND 3.8 cGPA with 28 = 66.0 (includes MCAT & GPA adjustments)
AND 3.6 cGPA with 30 = 67.0 (includes MCAT & GPA adjustments)
AND 3.4 cGPA with 32 = 66.5 (includes MCAT & GPA adjustments)

*I think that GPA & MCAT hold equal weight in normal ranges, but that both should be adjusted for non-typical applicants...but I'm not an adcom! (yet)
++++

 

[V5RED]

Here's my take on a modified LizzyM scoring system. (These adjustments should be made ONLY to your individual stats, and then compared to your target schools' standard LizzyM scores.)

Assuming* GPA deserves higher weight in some cases, you could slightly modify the formula like this:

Your standard LizzyM score PLUS
-3.0 if cGPA <3.0
-2.0 if cGPA <3.2
-1.0 if cGPA <3.4
-0.5 if cGPA <3.6
+0 if cGPA > or = 3.6
+1.0 if cGPA > or = 3.8
+1.5 if cGPA > or = 3.95

Thus, 3.8 cGPA with 35 = 75
AND 3.6 cGPA with 37 = 74
AND 3.3 cGPA with 40 = 73
(Previously these would have all yielded identical scores)

You should also adjust for outliers (low side only) in MCAT scoring:
-4 if MCAT <27 (if you're here...you should be retaking)
-3 if MCAT <28
-2 if MCAT <29
-1 if MCAT <30

Thus, 4.0 cGPA with 26 = 64.5 (includes MCAT & GPA adjustments)
AND 3.8 cGPA with 28 = 66.0 (includes MCAT & GPA adjustments)
AND 3.6 cGPA with 30 = 67.0 (includes MCAT & GPA adjustments)
AND 3.4 cGPA with 32 = 66.5 (includes MCAT & GPA adjustments)

*I think that GPA & MCAT hold equal weight in normal ranges, but that both should be adjusted for non-typical applicants...but I'm not an adcom! (yet)
++++

This sounds like a lot of work to modify something that is just a way to get a ballpark estimate of which schools you should apply to.

 

[JESSFALLING]

This sounds like a lot of work to modify something that is just a way to get a ballpark estimate of which schools you should apply to.

You're absolutely right...I'm a hair splitter

 

[nyny87]

This sounds like a lot of work to modify something that is just a way to get a ballpark estimate of which schools you should apply to.

Definitely a hassle, but it is a much more realistic measurement for unbalanced applicants. I actually like this formula a lot. I'm one of those 3.4 36ers who didn't get results you would expect from a LizzyM 70.

 

[LizzyM]

Definitely a hassle, but it is a much more realistic measurement for unbalanced applicants. I actually like this formula a lot. I'm one of those 3.4 36ers who didn't get results you would expect from a LizzyM 70.

Where's the hassle? You would have been a 69 by this formula rather than a 70. Is that really such a big difference. Maybe you wouldn't dream quite as big but it is not huge. What it does do is put on notice the 26/2.9 that not only is your regular LizzyM score 55 but it ought to be a 48. Let's face it, no one needs that! For most people, the difference isn't that dramatic.

 

[nyny87]

Where's the hassle? You would have been a 69 by this formula rather than a 70. Is that really such a big difference. Maybe you wouldn't dream quite as big but it is not huge. What it does do is put on notice the 26/2.9 that not only is your regular LizzyM score 55 but it ought to be a 48. Let's face it, no one needs that! For most people, the difference isn't that dramatic.

I'm only a one person sample, but I interviewed at [71, 69, 69, 67, 67, 66] which seems like a pretty typical spread from looking at other people with my scores. Don't you think the difference between a 3.6 and a 3.4 is much greater than 2 MCAT points worth? You're the expert, that's just how it looked from my brief experience with all this.

 

[Big Dog]

Thus, your score would have been a 69?