LizzyM Scores

[b2sun]

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So i heard of this lizzy M thing from this forum (mcat + gpa x 10 + 1) as a gauge of which schools to apply to. Does thing thing have any real relevance at all? I guess what im asking is, do most schools weigh your gpa and your mcat in a fashion that is roughly similar to to this gpa x 10 thing? Ofc it would be silly if all schools used this as a "rule", but what is the general weight of gpa vs mcats?

 

[Vihsadas]

If you search the pre-medical forums for previous threads on this topic, you should be able to find a few lengthy dicussions to answer you question. In short, it's completely different at different schools, and the formula itself is just an observation of the data that is available. Some schools might use a formula, and some schools might not. There really is no way to judge your competitiveness so numerically, and there are obviously many other factors that will play into a school's decision about you. Another important thing to note is that at either extreme, (either high or low GPA, or high or low MCAT) the LizzyM score becomes less and less useful. If you calculate the LizzyM score for me, you see that I should be competitive at every school in the US, but I am clearly not because of my GPA. The LizzyM score should used in exactly the way that LizzyM stated: As a "guide".

That being said, this is more of a pre-med topic than an MCAT topic, so I'll move this thread there now. 🙂

 

[BeardedRunner]

MCAT is extremely important and it will count for about 50% of your qualification for admission. It is what will get you the interviews in the first place.

 

[Schemp]

GPA and MCAT are about equal. I wouldn't say 50% just because there are other things you have to have, like research, volunteering, etc., but there is no easy way to quantify those so only a moderate amount of those will be sufficient if both your GPA and MCAT are high.

 

[BrainBuff]

Actually, the MCAT counts almost 2/3 of the formula used for qualification for admission. GPA + sGPA count for the other 1/3. This initial combination of scores will get you thru the first round of eliminations, but then a specific look at your GPA and individual MCAT scores will take place.

For instance, Harvard usually rejects applicants with an individual MCAT below 10 or a GPA below 3.5. The same goes for top schools like Hopkins or Penn. In Vihsadas case, the initial combination score was high enough to allow him to be considered by any med school; but after that initial cut off, the GPA of less than 3.5 triggered the "silent rejections"...

 

[RogueUnicorn]

blind leading blind...

 

[BrainBuff]

It would be better if you contribute to the discussion and explain your comment. Clearly, you have no idea what I am talking about.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

It would be better if you contribute to the discussion and explain your comment. Clearly, you have no idea what I am talking about.

you're right. i have no idea how harvard accepts and rejects applicants. you do?

 

[cardinalsrock]

Actually, the MCAT counts almost 2/3 of the formula used for qualification for admission. GPA + sGPA count for the other 1/3. This initial combination of scores will get you thru the first round of eliminations, but then a specific look at your GPA and individual MCAT scores will take place.

For instance, Harvard usually rejects applicants with an individual MCAT below 10 or a GPA below 3.5. The same goes for top schools like Hopkins or Penn. In Vihsadas case, the initial combination score was high enough to allow him to be considered by any med school; but after that initial cut off, the GPA of less than 3.5 triggered the "silent rejections"...

🙄

bleargh is right. this is a clear example of:

 

[RogueUnicorn]

.... the cha-cha?

 

[cardinalsrock]

.... the cha-cha?

of course 🙂

 

[BrainBuff]

you're right. i have no idea how harvard accepts and rejects applicants. you do?

As a matter of fact, yea, I do.

Harvard usually rejects applicants with an individual MCAT below 10 or a GPA below 3.5. This is a known fact that you can look up yourself.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

As a matter of fact, yea, I do.

Harvard usually rejects applicants with an individual MCAT below 10 or a GPA below 3.5. This is a known fact that you can look up yourself.

dubious. so does a bunch of other schools. doesn't mean from that alone you can glean the inner workings of the admissions committee.

 

[CoolWhipp]

As a matter of fact, yea, I do.

As a matter of fact, you don't.

 

[redlight]

So i heard of this lizzy M thing from this forum (mcat + gpa x 10 + 1) as a gauge of which schools to apply to. Does thing thing have any real relevance at all? I guess what im asking is, do most schools weigh your gpa and your mcat in a fashion that is roughly similar to to this gpa x 10 thing? Ofc it would be silly if all schools used this as a "rule", but what is the general weight of gpa vs mcats?

lol understandable concern, but LizzyM is legit. at her school, that method is used.

at some other schools, like the one at my alma mater, they factor in science gpa as well.. so it would be sgpa*10 + cgpa*10 + mcat. also, ECs and such get rated and receive a score.

interviews are allotted to those who reach a certain score. then there is a range of scores that would need further evaluation before an interview is handed out. finally, those that have numbers too far below acceptable standards get rejected automatically. not all schools use this method, but some objective/point screening method is used at just about every school at SOME part of the process to cull the enourmous amount of applications. remember, adcom are mostly volunteers and have real jobs and other responsibilities..

 

[RogueUnicorn]

lol understandable concern, but LizzyM is legit. at her school, that method is used.

at some other schools, like the one at my alma mater, they factor in science gpa as well.. so it would be sgpa*10 + cgpa*10 + mcat. also, ECs and such get rated and receive a score.

interviews are allotted to those who reach a certain score. then there is a range of scores that would need further evaluation before an interview is handed out. finally, those that have numbers too far below acceptable standards get rejected automatically. not all schools use this method, but some objective/point screening method is used at just about every school at SOME part of the process to cull the enourmous amount of applications. remember, adcom are mostly volunteers and have real jobs and other responsibilities..

too bad we don't know (i think) where LizzyM is at because that scoring method helps me quite a bit..

 

[Bruinsfinalfour]

As a matter of fact, yea, I do.

Harvard usually rejects applicants with an individual MCAT below 10 or a GPA below 3.5. This is a known fact that you can look up yourself.

wait wait holdup...so you're telling me that Harvard usually rejects applicants with a GPA below a 3.5!?!?

this new found knowledge has given me a whole new perspective on the application process

On the next episode of "Inner Adcom knowledge," BrainBuff will reveal that according to inside sources, schools like Mayo and UCLA generally do not accept students that have absolutely no clinical experience what so ever.

 

[apumic]

According to AMCAS data the exact balance of MCAT:GPA varies with a pretty consistent tilt in the direction of the MCAT. An actual weight table is in the med school spreadsheet or can be created using the AMCAS MCAT vs. GPA % Acceptance grid. The LizzyM formula is a good approximation for this as long as the GPA is ~3.7-3.9 and the MCAT is ~28-32. Outside those ranges, the MCAT gains importance quickly as it rises until about 35, where it begins to lose relative value per point (or loses importance as it falls below ~25). Simultaneously, the relative per point value of the GPA increases consistently throughout the entire range such that, per point, a 3.9 holds more weight than a 3.7. (Of course, if one's GPA & MCAT both rise, the relative proportionality of the two both rise and cancel each other out.) The LizzyM, therefore theoretically departs most from expected values at a high MCAT as the MCAT loses value/point at extremely high values (unlike high GPAs -- ultra-high MCAT scores are simply seen as not showing much beyond the fact that the person is an extremely good test-taker). The LizzyM 1:1 assumed ratio actually breaks down most when the MCAT and GPA are most different. A high GPA with a low MCAT gives weight in the GPA direction as long as the GPA is strong (3.5 -- they equal out at about 3.5 if the MCAT is 25).
The reality, however, is that these changes throughout the range make little difference in most cases. As a general rule, the MCAT is weighted slightly more strongly than the GPA on average across MD schools according to AMCAS.

 

[JJMrK]

Who knows? It's most useful as a guide for comparing the admissions averages between schools.

 

[NotAsking4Much]

Actually, the MCAT counts almost 2/3 of the formula used for qualification for admission. GPA + sGPA count for the other 1/3. This initial combination of scores will get you thru the first round of eliminations, but then a specific look at your GPA and individual MCAT scores will take place.

For instance, Harvard usually rejects applicants with an individual MCAT below 10 or a GPA below 3.5. The same goes for top schools like Hopkins or Penn. In Vihsadas case, the initial combination score was high enough to allow him to be considered by any med school; but after that initial cut off, the GPA of less than 3.5 triggered the "silent rejections"...

I think the more important message and one that Apumic was referring to I think is that both GPA and MCAT have diminishing returns. Overall, I think SDNers value numbers a bit...too much. I've seen some people write that because one person got 0.1 higher GPA or +1 MCAT, he got the interview/acceptance.

From what I've heard from my counselors or people who served on the admissions committee at my school, for the top schools, that "wow" EC/factor speaks very heavily whereas too many people have great scores but very mediocre EC's.

 

[Contrarian]

According to AMCAS data the exact balance of MCAT:GPA varies with a pretty consistent tilt in the direction of the MCAT. An actual weight table is in the med school spreadsheet or can be created using the AMCAS MCAT vs. GPA % Acceptance grid. The LizzyM formula is a good approximation for this as long as the GPA is ~3.7-3.9 and the MCAT is ~28-32. Outside those ranges, the MCAT gains importance quickly as it rises until about 35, where it begins to lose relative value per point (or loses importance as it falls below ~25). Simultaneously, the relative per point value of the GPA increases consistently throughout the entire range such that, per point, a 3.9 holds more weight than a 3.7. (Of course, if one's GPA & MCAT both rise, the relative proportionality of the two both rise and cancel each other out.) The LizzyM, therefore theoretically departs most from expected values at a high MCAT as the MCAT loses value/point at extremely high values (unlike high GPAs -- ultra-high MCAT scores are simply seen as not showing much beyond the fact that the person is an extremely good test-taker). The LizzyM 1:1 assumed ratio actually breaks down most when the MCAT and GPA are most different. A high GPA with a low MCAT gives weight in the GPA direction as long as the GPA is strong (3.5 -- they equal out at about 3.5 if the MCAT is 25).
The reality, however, is that these changes throughout the range make little difference in most cases. As a general rule, the MCAT is weighted slightly more strongly than the GPA on average across MD schools according to AMCAS.

what did I just read

 

[BrainBuff]

I would not waste my time in trying to convince other anonymous internet phantoms about whether the information I have shared here is true or not.

The only reason we know about LizzyM score, is because LizzyM posts here, otherwise no one would have heard of that parameter. The ivies use an academic index (AI) based on the parameters that I explained on my previous post. And just like the LizzyM score, the AI is a good guide because it tells you whether you are going to pass the first screening or not. In addition, I was clarifying that the MCAT counts as 2/3 (not 1/2) of the index, and therefore it is very important.

Again, just sharing some info for those interested. My information comes from Ivy adcoms and I do not know why anyone would think that someone would be making off stuff like that to post here...but..

Then again, after noticing that someone is capable of posting 1084 times in just two months, I realize that some people would just write anything and about anything

 

[LizzyM]

lol understandable concern, but LizzyM is legit. at her school, that method is used.

I've been a med school faculty member for >15 years. I've been an adcom for >10 yrs. For reasons related to privacy, I don't disclose my location.

My school does not use the LizzyM score. I came up with that myself a few years ago as a quick and dirty way to target one's applications to increase the likelihood of being invited for interviews. Here at SDN, I saw too many people who had too many reach schools and too few schools were a good match with their academic acheivement.

More than gpa and MCAT goes into the decision to issue an interview invitation which is why I call this "quick & dirty". Decisions to make offers of admission are based on far more than gpa & MCAT and I don't think one can use LizzyM score to predict offers of admission.

 

[redlight]

I've been a med school faculty member for >15 years. I've been an adcom for >10 yrs. For reasons related to privacy, I don't disclose my location.

My school does not use the LizzyM score. I came up with that myself a few years ago as a quick and dirty way to target one's applications to increase the likelihood of being invited for interviews. Here at SDN, I saw too many people who had too many reach schools and too few schools were a good match with their academic acheivement.

More than gpa and MCAT goes into the decision to issue an interview invitation which is why I call this "quick & dirty". Decisions to make offers of admission are based on far more than gpa & MCAT and I don't think one can use LizzyM score to predict offers of admission.

hmm, just kidding.

you've mentioned the LizzyM scores as a good tool to figure out whether one would be competitive enough to interview based on numbers alone before. i dont know why i said your school uses LMS to award interviews. faulty assumption on my part, i guess. ..sorry, OP and LizzyM.

but i stand by the statement about the med school attached to my undergrad. the info is coming from the former dean.

and like i said, other parts of your app get a "rating" or score and that also factors into whether one gets an interview offer. i remember seeing a post where you suggested that having 'outstanding' evals on activites and essays, Etc, would also contribute to one getting an interview offer.

 

[ChemEngSoonMD]

So i heard of this lizzy M thing from this forum (mcat + gpa x 10 + 1) as a gauge of which schools to apply to. Does thing thing have any real relevance at all? I guess what im asking is, do most schools weigh your gpa and your mcat in a fashion that is roughly similar to to this gpa x 10 thing? Ofc it would be silly if all schools used this as a "rule", but what is the general weight of gpa vs mcats?

Its pretty damn simple.

1. Download the acceptance data for each school.
2. Put the data into Excel (you herd of Excel?).
3. Plot the normal distribution and calculate the standard deviation.
4. Find out where you are on that chart based on your MCAT and GPA.
5. Use the z-score to find your probability.
6. Figure out if that probability is high enough for your time and money.
7. If you know you are badass, then you don't have to apply to many schools.
8. If you suck ass and you are rich then apply to many.
9. If you suck ass and you are poor, too bad.

 

[LiveUninhibited]

Its pretty damn simple.

1. Download the acceptance data for each school.
2. Put the data into Excel (you herd of Excel?).
3. Plot the normal distribution and calculate the standard deviation.
4. Find out where you are on that chart based on your MCAT and GPA.
5. Use the z-score to find your probability.
6. Figure out if that probability is high enough for your time and money.
7. If you know you are badass, then you don't have to apply to many schools.
8. If you suck ass and you are rich then apply to many.
9. If you suck ass and you are poor, too bad.

Though that somewhat time-consuming task has already been done, and it's stickied at the top of the "What are my chances?" part of the forum.

 

[apumic]

Though that somewhat time-consuming task has already been done, and it's stickied at the top of the "What are my chances?" part of the forum.

lol. And it's actually a bit more complex than chemeng implies bc the distributions are all a bit on the skewed side but the principle is the same. The weight changes over the relative ranges largely bc the extreme scores make people question the case by case validity of that measure. (Add'lly it's likely unqualified people w low gpa or mcat are much less likely to try than less qualified people w high gpa & mcat scores, which might throw relative weight data off somewhat.)

 

[Mellymel09]

Its pretty damn simple.

1. Download the acceptance data for each school.
2. Put the data into Excel (you herd of Excel?).
3. Plot the normal distribution and calculate the standard deviation.
4. Find out where you are on that chart based on your MCAT and GPA.
5. Use the z-score to find your probability.
6. Figure out if that probability is high enough for your time and money.
7. If you know you are badass, then you don't have to apply to many schools.
8. If you suck ass and you are rich then apply to many.
9. If you suck ass and you are poor, too bad.

Is there a legit location where one can download this acceptance data for each school? This may have been mentionned other threads (don't have the time to go look through all of them) but just out of quick reference I'd appreciate the source. Thx

 

[ChemEngSoonMD]

lol. And it's actually a bit more complex that chemeng implies bc the distributions are all a bit on the skewed side but the principle is the same. The weight changes over the relative ranges largely bc the extreme scores make people question the case by case validity of that measure. (Add'lly it's likely unqualified people w low gpa or mcat are much less likely to try than less qualified people w high gpa & mcat scores, which might throw relative weight data off somewhat.)

You're right. The data may not be normal. Considering some people don't even know what standard deviation, this task might be too challenging.

 

[Compass]

You're right. The data may not be normal. Considering some people don't even know what standard deviation IS, this task might be too challenging.

Rookie mistake, Mr. Perfect XD, you're dropping words like I usually do.


Basic stats should be available in the MSAR. Full stats are probably hidden for privacy purposes.

 

[dru2002]

You're right. The data may not be normal. Considering some people don't even know what standard deviation, this task might be too challenging.

Are you this pompous in real life or is this just your internet persona?

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I would not waste my time in trying to convince other anonymous internet phantoms about whether the information I have shared here is true or not.

The only reason we know about LizzyM score, is because LizzyM posts here, otherwise no one would have heard of that parameter. The ivies use an academic index (AI) based on the parameters that I explained on my previous post. And just like the LizzyM score, the AI is a good guide because it tells you whether you are going to pass the first screening or not. In addition, I was clarifying that the MCAT counts as 2/3 (not 1/2) of the index, and therefore it is very important.

Again, just sharing some info for those interested. My information comes from Ivy adcoms and I do not know why anyone would think that someone would be making off stuff like that to post here...but..

Then again, after noticing that someone is capable of posting 1084 times in just two months, I realize that some people would just write anything and about anything

ah yes. "the ivies." such a relevant designation for medical schools. once again, nobody believes you know the ins and outs of HMS.

and perhaps it is difficult for you, but typing out a ~20 word post is not altogether difficult

 

[Compass]

Are you this pompous in real life or is this just your internet persona?

I don't think you've seen pictures of this guy yet. Stay on topic, though. Please, people, no one is saying that LizzyM scores are the end-all. Scores are scores. People are people. I'd like to point out that you are not a number. The number helps, but it's not a guarantee. That being said, good numbers and bad people has a higher chance of getting an interview than bad numbers and good people, sadly enough. It's easier to judge based on grades and MCAT than it is on character prior to the interview.

 

[BerlinDude]

As a matter of fact, yea, I do.

Harvard usually rejects applicants with an individual MCAT below 10 or a GPA below 3.5. This is a known fact that you can look up yourself.

Yea, Harvard usually rejects applicants period.

We have no idea how admissions decisions are made, let's not pretend we do. All we know is average GPA/MCAT scores at different schools and admission rates.

 

[FluffyRabbit]

I don't think you've seen pictures of this guy yet. Stay on topic, though. Please, people, no one is saying that LizzyM scores are the end-all. Scores are scores. People are people. I'd like to point out that you are not a number. The number helps, but it's not a guarantee. That being said, good numbers and bad people has a higher chance of getting an interview than bad numbers and good people, sadly enough. It's easier to judge based on grades and MCAT than it is on character prior to the interview.

Things have a way of balancing out. Being a good person means you're going to get more out of the interviews you have. Also it means you're a good person. 🙂

 

[FluffyRabbit]

I don't think you've seen pictures of this guy yet. Stay on topic, though. Please, people, no one is saying that LizzyM scores are the end-all. Scores are scores. People are people. I'd like to point out that you are not a number. The number helps, but it's not a guarantee. That being said, good numbers and bad people has a higher chance of getting an interview than bad numbers and good people, sadly enough. It's easier to judge based on grades and MCAT than it is on character prior to the interview.

Things have a way of balancing out. Being a good person means you're going to get more out of the interviews you have. Also it means you're a good person. 🙂

 

[Compass]

Things have a way of balancing out. Being a good person means you're going to get more out of the interviews you have. Also it means you're a good person. 🙂

I don't think Mother Theresa would have gotten an interview without at least competitive stats in this application cycle.

 

[Trexate]

I don't think Mother Theresa would have gotten an interview without at least competitive stats in this application cycle.

I respectfully disagree. I think that coming back from being dead for ~12 years would net you an interview just about anywhere. Except HMS. They're hard asses.

 

[Mellymel09]

Originally Posted by Compass
Basic stats should be available in the MSAR. Full stats are probably hidden for privacy purposes

Yeah, I've accessed the MSAR stats before, and I just went over it again, unless I'm blinded by something, I can't seem to find the data breakdown by school...

 

[Mellymel09]

Though that somewhat time-consuming task has already been done, and it's stickied at the top of the "What are my chances?" part of the forum.

Do you by any chances have a version of the excel file or know where it is??? I was kinda going about this the old fashioned way... checking out each school's website... but that's long and tedious; it would be far more helpful to screen out some schools and then deeply analyze the ones you actually have good chances at landing an interview.🙄

 

[redlight]

Do you by any chances have a version of the excel file or know where it is??? I was kinda going about this the old fashioned way... checking out each school's website... but that's long and tedious; it would be far more helpful to screen out some schools and then deeply analyze the ones you actually have good chances at landing an interview.🙄

it is on the first page of the thread at the top of the WAMC? forum. the spreadsheet thread is stickied. newer versions are also somewhere towards the end of the thread.

 

[apumic]

Do you by any chances have a version of the excel file or know where it is??? I was kinda going about this the old fashioned way... checking out each school's website... but that's long and tedious; it would be far more helpful to screen out some schools and then deeply analyze the ones you actually have good chances at landing an interview.🙄

I thought most people knew about and where that spreadsheet was by now. It's the med school selection spreadsheet on the What Are My Chances forum. Updates are made on a fairly regular basis based on SDN member feedback and any new data that comes up that can be fed into it (e.g., the AAMC survey that was posted about recently is in the process of being integrated into the spreadsheet right now and should be up within a few days).

Perhaps we should get a "best resources" thread stickied on the main Allo forum and include that and some of the other spreadsheets and such members have created and/or posted links to in the past....

Until then, you can find the latest version posted at http://forums.studentdoctor.net/show...&postcount=215

 

[FluffyRabbit]

I don't think Mother Theresa would have gotten an interview without at least competitive stats in this application cycle.

Then it really depends on which schools and what definition of "competitive" you are using. ^^

 

[LiveUninhibited]

Things have a way of balancing out. Being a good person means you're going to get more out of the interviews you have. Also it means you're a good person. 🙂

Charisma =/= good person, though it's not entirely irrelevant to being good doctor, more applicable to some (family practice), than others (surgery).