Lobby for unified AACOMAS seat deposit system?

[UBC2014]

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AMCAS has specific guidelines for seat deposits and returning of seat deposits. It is a fair system and effective.

Why aren't any student groups lobbying for a similar process with AACOMAS? There is millions of dollars being wasted as inefficiency, lining the pockets of schools with exorbiant nonrefundable seat deposits.

Yes, I know its apart of it and accepted it when I applied but doesn't mean it can't be changed for future applicants.

 

[Shinobiz11]

Good idea. Eff spending thousands of non-refundable dollars which goes towards tuition (what if you don't end up there?). How do we start it?

 

[Stlblues17]

I'm all for that, except I feel the schools will find another way to get money out of us. As goro has mentioned, DO schools don't have the supplemental funding the MD schools have, thus is their justification for taking our money.

I just feel if it's not the deposit, it'll be something else. But I'm on board.

 

[Major]

It's a great thought OP, but I just don't know how practically this would work.

 

[j4pac]

Schools will increase tuition. They will get theirs.

 

[deleted480308]

Schools will increase tuition. They will get theirs.

+1, it's like laws that demand more expensive health coverage.....companies will compensate with lower pay/benefits in other areas

 

[235009]

As long as DO is a backup plan for the majority of applicants this isn't going to change. These schools are trying to disincentivise you from holding a seat at multiple DO schools and then ditching them all last minute to go MD. LCME accredited schools don't have this concern.

 

[deleted480308]

As long as DO is a backup plan for the majority of applicants this isn't going to change. These schools are trying to disincentivise you from holding a seat at multiple DO schools and then ditching them all last minute to go MD. LCME accredited schools don't have this concern.

I did have an MD adcom tell me they didn't require a deposit because their school was good enough that they had plenty of qualified people who wanted our seats. It wasn't worth the administrative hassle of tracking deposits for the small amount of money they made. He said, "we like you if we give you a seat, but we don't need you...if you go somewhere else, we can replace you in 5 minutes"

 

[j4pac]

As long as DO is a backup plan for the majority of applicants this isn't going to change. These schools are trying to disincentivise you from holding a seat at multiple DO schools and then ditching them all last minute to go MD. LCME accredited schools don't have this concern.

I don't even see it that way. If the MD schools wanted to charge the fees...they would. But obviously they don't need to through government funding and tuition.

These are businesses we are talking about. Their ins are going to be greater than there outs. The DOs can adopt the MD way of handling business...but in doing so they would be decreasing their income and therefore it will need to be made up in some capacity.

Sure, the DO programs may have a bigger need to protect their investment...but I am not even sure I buy that. Applicants on the whole are not going to let a deposit get in the way of them deciding where to go to med school.

 

[IslandStyle808]

As long as DO is a backup plan for the majority of applicants this isn't going to change. These schools are trying to disincentivise you from holding a seat at multiple DO schools and then ditching them all last minute to go MD. LCME accredited schools don't have this concern.

Depends on the school. I remember one post by one of the adcoms on this site where they stated some accepted applicants held up to 12 acceptance on the MD side. So you can have the same phenomenon happening on MD side as well (they have to drop them in May, but the point still stands). Even if that is the case, just like MD schools, DO schools have enough applicants to filled the void of dropped seats. So it doesn't justify high fees such as $3000-$4000 dollars.

 

[UBC2014]

If they are that worried, they could make the "may 15th" for DO schools earlier on April 1st. Whereby you can only hold one acceptance, and refund all other deposits. They have plenty of time to fill from waitlist then. I dont buy the yield protection as being significantly detrimental.. Maybe 20% of applicants?

 

[deleted480308]

Depends on the school. I remember one post by one of the adcoms on this site where they stated some accepted applicants held up to 12 acceptance on the MD side. So you can have the same phenomenon happening on MD side as well (they have to drop them in May, but the point still stands). Even if that is the case, just like MD schools, DO schools have enough applicants to filled the void of dropped seats. So it doesn't justify high fees such as $3000-$4000 dollars.

They have a finite commodity with near infinite demand, they could double the fee and we would pay it

 

[DrEnderW]

These schools are trying to disincentivise you from holding a seat at multiple DO schools and then ditching them all last minute to go MD.

That's always how I've viewed it.

If it was anything else the fee would be $100 not $1000. It forces your hand to pick a school and commit. Most places even put a 2 week to 1 month timer on it. I get it though, they want applicants that want to be there, not backups. It's crazy to say that's not the motive.

 

[evooo8]

They have a finite commodity with near infinite demand, they could double the fee and we would pay it

Supply and demand.

 

[user3]

AMCAS has specific guidelines for seat deposits and returning of seat deposits. It is a fair system and effective.

Why aren't any student groups lobbying for a similar process with AACOMAS? There is millions of dollars being wasted as inefficiency, lining the pockets of schools with exorbiant nonrefundable seat deposits.

Yes, I know its apart of it and accepted it when I applied but doesn't mean it can't be changed for future applicants.

I may be in the minority, but I find this practice borderline criminal.

They have a finite commodity with near infinite demand, they could double the fee and we would pay it

legal =/= acceptable or right.

 

[AORiverContra]

That's always how I've viewed it.

If it was anything else the fee would be $100 not $1000. It forces your hand to pick a school and commit. Most places even put a 2 week to 1 month timer on it. I get it though, they want applicants that want to be there, not backups. It's crazy to say that's not the motive.

I don't think you understand how med school applications work. Schools hold interviews over a long period of time, so you can easily get accepted at one place and be forced to pay a deposit before you've finished your interviews. Put yourself in the shoes of an applicant who only has one acceptance and hasn't finished his interviews yet. Can you honestly say that you would turn down your only acceptance and risk having to reapply? People in this position have no choice but to take the seat. You aren't disincentivized from taking the seat, you're still holding it, the only difference is that the school gets to extort an additional couple grand from you. So let's stop pretending this is about anything other than greed.

 

[DrEnderW]

I don't think you understand how med school applications work. Schools hold interviews over a long period of time, so you can easily get accepted at one place and be forced to pay a deposit before you've finished your interviews. Put yourself in the shoes of an applicant who only has one acceptance and hasn't finished his interviews yet. Can you honestly say that you would turn down your only acceptance and risk having to reapply? People in this position have no choice but to take the seat. You aren't disincentivized from taking the seat, you're still holding it, the only difference is that the school gets to extort an additional couple grand from you. So let's stop pretending this is about anything other than greed.

Huh? Did you quote the wrong person?

Maybe you didn't read my post in context. I 100% agree with you.

 

[AORiverContra]

Huh? Did you quote the wrong person?

Maybe you didn't read my post in context. I 100% agree with you.

Maybe I read your post wrong but I thought you said their motive was to not be applicants' backups.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Supply and demand.

one could even call it inelastic demand to a certain degree...

 

[DoctorLacrosse]

it's BS is what it is. you guys are arguing schools don't want to be backups as the acceptable reason for these outrageous deposits? seriously?? or they don't get enough funding like MD schools do, so it's okay to take it from the people already going broke due to this process?

theoretically, a school could be your #1 choice pre-interview, you don't like it when you visit, it becomes your first and only acceptance at the time, and now you HAVE to pay them $2000 that you can't get back just to protect yourself. these deposits don't only yield students who seriously want to be at that particular program, it forces people to be there who may not want to be.

it's flat out stealing money from vulnerable applicants just because they can do it and we have no choice. like you all said, supply and demand, the only issue is medicine is all about being ethical, yet every DO program that expects these deposits is acting unethically. it's plain wrong, and I'd be all for lobbying against it if there was a way to do so.

 

[deleted480308]

it's BS is what it is. you guys are arguing schools don't want to be backups as the acceptable reason for these outrageous deposits? seriously?? or they don't get enough funding like MD schools do, so it's okay to take it from the people already going broke due to this process?

theoretically, a school could be your #1 choice pre-interview, you don't like it when you visit, it becomes your first and only acceptance at the time, and now you HAVE to pay them $2000 that you can't get back just to protect yourself. these deposits don't only yield students who seriously want to be at that particular program, it forces people to be there who may not want to be.

it's flat out stealing money from vulnerable applicants just because they can do it and we have no choice. like you all said, supply and demand, the only issue is medicine is all about being ethical, yet every DO program that expects these deposits is acting unethically. it's plain wrong, and I'd be all for lobbying against it if there was a way to do so.

there is nothing unethical about making an offer and charging a price, if you prefer the MD treatment you can always get the grades/MCAT to apply MD

 

[DoctorLacrosse]

there is nothing unethical about making an offer and charging a price, if you prefer the MD treatment you can always get the grades/MCAT to apply MD

you truly believe there's nothing unethical about charging applicants thousands of non-refundable dollars to hold a spot at a school before they've had any opportunity to explore their options, particularly when many of these applicants are fresh out of college and probably just making it by financially? so if the deposits were $20k that would be fine as well because we'd have no choice but to pay it? I find it hard to believe you actually feel this way, but if so, please explain your reasoning. I've said this before, but this isn't Shark Tank where you should be forced to accept your first decent offer or you might be SOL.

and your last line implies DO applicants aren't good enough for fair treatment by their schools. that's just a very strange way to look at this, but alright lol

 

[deleted480308]

you truly believe there's nothing unethical about charging applicants thousands of non-refundable dollars to hold a spot at a school before they've had any opportunity to explore their options, particularly when many of these applicants are fresh out of college and probably just making it by financially? so if the deposits were $20k that would be fine as well because we'd have no choice but to pay it? I find it hard to believe you actually feel this way, but if so, please explain your reasoning. I've said this before, but this isn't Shark Tank where you should be forced to accept your first decent offer or you might be SOL.

and your last line implies DO applicants aren't good enough for fair treatment by their schools. that's just a very strange way to look at this, but alright lol

I do believe it because no one is forcing you to do anything. They are offering you a chance to know you get to be a doctor in america and asking you to put some skin in the game to commit. if you would rather roll the dice for a prettier prom date that's on you but you already have a girl that wants to go, she just wants you to buy her ticket. my comment about MD is simple because you say the DO schools are wrong because they aren't acting like the MD. If you prefer the way MD schools do it, apply MD.

and yes, they could get people to sign loans for $20k to hold a seat

 

[DoctorLacrosse]

I do believe it because no one is forcing you to do anything. They are offering you a chance to know you get to be a doctor in america and asking you to put some skin in the game to commit. if you would rather roll the dice for a prettier prom date that's on you but you already have a girl that wants to go, she just wants you to buy her ticket. my comment about MD is simple because you say the DO schools are wrong because they aren't acting like the MD. If you prefer the way MD schools do it, apply MD.

and yes, they could get people to sign loans for $20k to hold a seat

clearly I couldn't disagree more, but you're entitled to that opinion.

 

[IslandStyle808]

there is nothing unethical about making an offer and charging a price, if you prefer the MD treatment you can always get the grades/MCAT to apply MD

Have to disagree here. Sure they can charge a price, but to say there is nothing unethical about having no ceiling is a little over the top. These are non-profit schools, so why is it okay for them to charge a radically high price?

 

[user3]

I do believe it because no one is forcing you to do anything. They are offering you a chance to know you get to be a doctor in america and asking you to put some skin in the game to commit. if you would rather roll the dice for a prettier prom date that's on you but you already have a girl that wants to go, she just wants you to buy her ticket. my comment about MD is simple because you say the DO schools are wrong because they aren't acting like the MD. If you prefer the way MD schools do it, apply MD.

and yes, they could get people to sign loans for $20k to hold a seat

demanding of massive seat deposits is not compatible with anyone who wishes to apply to medical school in a common sense, reasonable manner.

Making it unnecessarily more expensive (and in effect, de-incentivizing) for applicants to find the best school for them-- which would allow them to succeed to their fullest and reflect well on the profession later on-- also isn't acting in the best interest of the profession.

That being said, this practice doesn't surprise me at all. It really speaks to how sickly money-obsessed DO schools often seem to be.

 

[Mad Jack]

I don't even see it that way. If the MD schools wanted to charge the fees...they would. But obviously they don't need to through government funding and tuition.

These are businesses we are talking about. Their ins are going to be greater than there outs. The DOs can adopt the MD way of handling business...but in doing so they would be decreasing their income and therefore it will need to be made up in some capacity.

Sure, the DO programs may have a bigger need to protect their investment...but I am not even sure I buy that. Applicants on the whole are not going to let a deposit get in the way of them deciding where to go to med school.

Most DO schools are nonprofits, so cash in should theoretically be equal to cash out. Plenty of schools make a lot of profit per the last AACOM report. They would certainly survive without their seat deposits.

 

[deleted480308]

Most DO schools are nonprofits, so cash in should theoretically be equal to cash out. Plenty of schools make a lot of profit per the last AACOM report. They would certainly survive without their seat deposits.

Non-profit is a tax status, not a state refusing to operate in the black

 

[Mad Jack]

Non-profit is a tax status, not a state refusing to operate in the black

As a requirement of nonprofit filing status, an organization must not be organized for profit and no part of the net earnings may go to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. Keeping excess funds and using retained funds as a reason to pay out executive funds, and not saving donations instead of using them to care for the poor nearly cost my hospital its nonprofit status, because it could easily be proven that the organization was geared toward profiteering and not toward a mission. Nonprofits must be mission-based, and their income must be used to fulfill that mission, whatever it may be.

 

[hallowmann]

Guys, schools don't want to waste time with people who aren't interested to go there. It costs money to do interviews, so they want to make sure when they hold a seat for someone, that person actually wants to attend. It sucks, I wish it was cheaper, and they could certainly be nicer about refunding it, but its not an ethical imperative that they do that.

When I applied, there were things I didn't like about the DO app (cost of deposits, etc.), and there were also things about the MD app I didn't like (the cost of secondaries - sometimes 2-3 times the cost of the average DO secondaries - especially considering that most were filtering after you paid the secondaries, so they waited to have your secondary money before they auto-rejected you based on your numbers in the primary app, classy). I easily spent more on MD secondary auto-rejects than paying an extra deposit. Neither system really favors the student, and if not this, they'll find another way to make their admissions money (like increasing the cost of secondaries).

 

[deleted480308]

As a requirement of nonprofit filing status, an organization must not be organized for profit and no part of the net earnings may go to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual. Keeping excess funds and using retained funds as a reason to pay out executive funds, and not saving donations instead of using them to care for the poor nearly cost my hospital its nonprofit status, because it could easily be proven that the organization was geared toward profiteering and not toward a mission. Nonprofits must be mission-based, and their income must be used to fulfill that mission, whatever it may be.

I'm with you on that...just refuting claims that nonprofit schools "don't need" to make money