I posted this on another thread but I'll put it here as well. This is my inquiry to a practicing dentist on Dentaltown (and also a USC alum) and the response I got:
My inquiry:
"I saw your post re: debt coming out of USC. Do you practice in CA? How much debt do you think is reasonable to graduate with? Is the USC alumni network very helpful? How much would be reasonable to earn as a well-established generalist in CA. What about as a specialist? The reason I am asking is that USC is now even more money. With interest, I would expect a graduate to owe about 500k. I contacted the office recently about the debt issue and they basically just said "do IBR." What do you think?
thanks a lot."
Response:
"Not rocket science here... avoid the debt if at all possible. If you have school choices that are more reasonably priced, pursue those. You still get a degree that, in the eyes of patients, is equivalent. Remember this: dental education is not an altruistic endeavor, it's a business that makes a profit. You are their profit.
USC Dental Alumni consits of some parties at the CDA convention and frequent mailings asking for donations, that's it. There was absolutely no assistance placing graduates or opportunities to foster your professional or business growth within school, unlike their MBA program. It's all about getting you through the system. All dental schools offer CE, which will be where most of your income growth potential will occur. i.e. better faster RCTs, how to place implants, practice management, etc.
Keep your debt below $200k. $500k is insane esp at the now higher student loan rates.
However, our clinical education while difficult, did prepare me for real world general dentistry. It failed at teaching the specialized procedures, like molar endo, implants, ortho.
Income depends on practice type and location. Southern Cal is dominated by insurance, so your income potential is hindered greatly. Very few fee for service practice in socal.
I graduated 2003 and in hindsight I wish I would have done a few things:
1) Identify a market inside of CA or outside of CA that is not insurance dominated, has an educated populace, and growth.
2) Make sure you go to a school that will prepare you for the board exam where you want to practice. I think most are doing Western regional and I think CA accepts that now?
3) Get your hands wet immediately upon graduation, unless you can specialize.
4) If you can specialize, specialize. Endo and ortho are very profitable, better work life balance.
5) But first things first, get into a dental school.
Most generals in San Diego are netting $150-$250K for established practice. Not great, really. But not as bad as MDs. There's a lot of soft benefits from owning your own practice unlike MDs who are mostly employees and W2d so not much in the way of deductions."
Here's another response (by a different dentist from Dentaltown) re: practicing in CA:
"Hi there,
I wrote a long reply, but I tabbed out and when I came back, my ipad reloaded the page and erased it. So, the short version is...
SoCal sucks for dentistry unless you want to work like a dog in an hmo office. Gems exist but are rare. Teaching ops are limited. Pay is very low. Go somewhere else with better opportunities.
Good luck!"
And here is a Three-part response from yet another dentist on Dentaltown re: student loans vs income, etc.. (I also posted this on another SDN thread):
Part 1:
"The statistics that Midwestern University were from around 2006 if I remember correctly. Incomes have dropped 15% at least since then due to the recession. Were those statistics correct in the first place? That is questionable. Those incomes would be for a doctor that owned his own practice. These days fewer and fewer docs are looking to own thier practice due to the time committment and stress. That is fine but your income will always be lower if you are not the owner. I don't know if those stats also considered associates and doctors that practiced part time. Most docs I know that are making 250k or more are in their late 40s and 50s. It takes awhile to build a practice that allows that amount of income. What I don't like is that schools make it sound like those stats are a starting salary. Not even close.
When I got out in 2006, the average for a GP associate was 80-100k. Since then, it has dropped. Probably closer to 80k now due to the recession. It will get better but many associates can only find part time work. Now imagine having 550k in loans and making 80-100k a year. That is absurdity. You have to remember, to get to that 200k plus level it may take 10 years or more. You have to be an owner to make that kind of money. In order to be an owner, you need to buy or start a practice. That's MORE debt.
I think the turning point of student debt versus dentistry is probably about 250k in student loan debt. My partner and I talk about this all the time and agree that if you have more than this in student loan debt, it's not worth it. That's another mortgage you're paying. 550K in student loans? No way. Don't even consider it. You end up with a hire net worth being a plumber, trust me.
Another thing about dental specialties... they don't make as much as you may think. When the economy goes through it's cycles of recession, specialties get hit the hardest. Plus, competition among specialists is very competititive. For several years, students thought that going into a specialty was a sure thing to a higher income, thus more applicants lead to a glut of specialists out there... I have 4-5 endodontists within a mile of me. There really is only a need for 1 or 2.
In a nutshell, there is no sure thing anymore in dentistry. Be careful what you read on DT as people like to brag about how much they make to make themselves appear successful. For each guy that brags that he's making over 300k a year (if you can believe him), there's 100 docs not posting that make 120k. This is a pretty good gig if you can keep your student loan debt low. If not, consider another profession until the student loan bubble bursts.
To answer your last question, for a GP that owns his own practice and all loans are paid off, a reasonable take home would be 150-250k. The caveat is that this doctor is usually in his late 40s, early 50s and his practice has been paid for and has been growing for 10 plus years. This is where you make the most and your income usually plateaus (top of the bell curve). For a new practice owner, a reasonable take home is 0k-150k.
Hope this helps."
Part 2:
"It sounds like you have a pretty good idea about the state of dentistry. I'm sure what I'm telling you is the same as what your friends are telling you. How much are they making? Probably not as much as they were told they were.
The for profit schools are doing nothing but taking advantage of students. If federally backed student loans disappeared, those schools would collapse.
I practice in Chicago."
Part 3:
"I would not got to a specialty residency that charged tuition. Many of them will pay you a stipend (roughly 30k a year) to attend. Those would be the only ones I would consider. Dentistry is about 5-10 years from medicine in regards to making a living and lifestyle. There is no more advantage of being a dentist over an MD. It can still provide a good income and lifestyle but it is by no means a cakewalk. If you can't get through school cheap, it's not worth it at this time. And now that Obama won, nobody really knows how Obamacare will affect dentistry if at all."
Now I will give you my take:
1) If you don't care about money, go wherever you see yourself happiest.
2) If you care about money, go to Maryland.
3) If you care about money but really love California with your heart and soul, attend school at Maryland and move to California with the understanding that:
a) you will make less money than elsewhere, given any gross receipts for a practice;
b) you will need to practice far from an urban location to make serious $$$ in CA [High-earning practices DO exist in CA (there are plenty of them for sale on Dentaltown and HenrySchein (
http://www.henryschein.com/us-en/dental/services/PPTPracOpps/California.aspx)]; and
c) you should fight like hell in dental school for the opportunity to specialize.
Good luck
-sc
