LOE writer conflict of interest?

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whosthatgirl12

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The doctor I shadowed also happens to be my pediatrician. If I were to ask for a LOE from her would it be considered a conflict of interest? (In that our relationship goes beyond a professional level and that she's also my personal doctor)
Physician LOR = pretty pointless, unless s/he is a DO and you're trying to get into a DO school.
 
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Actually I think they should simply because it can relate a longer relationship, perhaps providing some in depth character evaluation. See attached letter writers guide

While this is true, there is nothing wrong with asking to either note something or leave something out. Whether the writer does so or not, is entirely up to them.

That is generally true. Unless you have some longer, indepth, or formal connection, most typical shadowing letters have little or no impact. This one might have a tad more but really not much

I wrote my own thread, but would it still be useless if I was very interested in rural primary medicine, and had shadowed my rural physician for close to 1000 hours?
 
I wrote my own thread, but would it still be useless if I was very interested in rural primary medicine, and had shadowed my rural physician for close to 1000 hours?


I don't see you really being able to absorb anything for that amount of time. Have you honestly spent 1000 hours shadowing one doctor?
 
Every LOE that starts with "I have known OP since she was a small child" is immediately devalued in my experience. It is evidence of something other than a professional relationship, more akin to a relative or friend of the family. Letters from one's own physician also have a whiff of coercion or, at a minimum, lack of objectivity.
 
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Really? You get to experience a wide range of patient interaction and probably develop an indepth relationship with the physician that gets into many other aspects of medicine as how to think thru a problem, do a clinical exam, etc. At 1000 hours, you have much much more than just silent watching.
It absolutely seems like a waste of time to follow one single physician for that amount of time. Spreading that out over 5 or 6 doctors across different areas of practice is going to give you much more perspective on various areas of medicine in different environments.
 
It absolutely seems like a waste of time to follow one single physician for that amount of time. Spreading that out over 5 or 6 doctors across different areas of practice is going to give you much more perspective on various areas of medicine in different environments.

Wow, I don't think so. I developed a relationship with the staff and physician, and was able to see pretty neat rural medicine in action. I look at it like how adcoms look at clubs and activities: spread yourself out with 4 or 5 clubs, or be very dedicated to one or two. This physician can write me an amazing letter of rec because I had such a rapport.
 
I don't see you really being able to absorb anything for that amount of time. Have you honestly spent 1000 hours shadowing one doctor?
I got interested in rural medicine midway through college, and was able to spend a good part of a year and half shadowing- especially during the summer. So yes, it was just a bit shy of 1000 hours.
 
Physician LOR = pretty pointless, unless s/he is a DO and you're trying to get into a DO school.

Yeah, the only way I would ask a physician for an LOR is if I actually volunteered in their clinic
 
Wow, I don't think so. I developed a relationship with the staff and physician, and was able to see pretty neat rural medicine in action. I look at it like how adcoms look at clubs and activities: spread yourself out with 4 or 5 clubs, or be very dedicated to one or two. This physician can write me an amazing letter of rec because I had such a rapport.

I'm sure you have reaped the benefits of that experience. Just not something I would dedicate that much time to. I'm not on an adcom but I've never seen an app posted here or anywhere else for that matter with 1000 shadowing hours of one doctor which leads me to believe it's pretty nonessential. Perhaps I just haven't seen enough apps.
 
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I'm sure you have reaped he benefits of that experience. Just not something I would dedicate that much time to. I'm not on an adcom but I've never seen an app posted here or anywhere else for that matter with 1000 shadowing hours of one doctor which leads me to believe it's pretty nonessential. Perhaps I just haven't seen enough apps.
Well one of the schools i'm applying to is Rush, and they love clinical work and volunteer work. I have a lot of both, so i'm hoping they also look favorably on my clinical experience. I don't think it's nonessential though- you have to realize that we only see a miniscule amount of the people applying in total here on SDN.
 
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There have been applicants who have published papers with their physician/scientist parent. An LOE from the parent (though PI) would have how much weight? This is in a very similar vein.
 
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There have been applicants who have published papers with their physician/scientist parent. An LOE from the parent (though PI) would have how much weight? This is in a very similar vein.

I am a bit surprised to hear physician LORs aren't considered important, or maybe that is somewhat conditional? The most important relationship I have had is without a doubt the physician I have shadowed on and off for 3 years. I intend to put her as a mentor because that is really what she has been more than anything else. It is hard to believe an LOR from a science professor with 300 students in the class that I have only personally spoke to briefly, would mean more? Do you think it would be alright to include this physician LOR as long as I include a letter from a professor?

Thanks
 
I am a bit surprised to hear physician LORs aren't considered important, or maybe that is somewhat conditional? The most important relationship I have had is without a doubt the physician I have shadowed on and off for 3 years. I intend to put her as a mentor because that is really what she has been more than anything else. It is hard to believe an LOR from a science professor with 300 students in the class that I have only personally spoke to briefly, would mean more? Do you think it would be alright to include this physician LOR as long as I include a letter from a professor?

Thanks

Look, I know that some faculty on here are adamant that letters from physicians are useless, but this is the first i've heard of it. Many schools like these letters, because they speak to the student as a human being, and not just an academic robot. The fact that you have formed a good relationship with your mentor looks good to schools, and I think you should include it. I'm including mine, even though some said otherwise.
 
I am a bit surprised to hear physician LORs aren't considered important, or maybe that is somewhat conditional? The most important relationship I have had is without a doubt the physician I have shadowed on and off for 3 years. I intend to put her as a mentor because that is really what she has been more than anything else. It is hard to believe an LOR from a science professor with 300 students in the class that I have only personally spoke to briefly, would mean more? Do you think it would be alright to include this physician LOR as long as I include a letter from a professor?

Thanks
Some schools will let you submit quite a few letters. There is nothing wrong with an LOE like this when you have the option to send several. They're just seen as fluff, though.
 
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Some schools will let you submit quite a few letters. There is nothing wrong with an LOE like this when you have the option to send several. They're just seen as fluff, though.

Can you stop speaking for all adcoms? My God. Maybe your school thinks they're "fluff" but several schools that i've looked at, and one school that i've heard from the adcom specifically have contradicted this.
 
Look, I know that some faculty on here are adamant that letters from physicians are useless, but this is the first i've heard of it. Many schools like these letters, because they speak to the student as a human being, and not just an academic robot. The fact that you have formed a good relationship with your mentor looks good to schools, and I think you should include it. I'm including mine, even though some said otherwise.

You're forgetting that good LORs from professors are not the ones where a student has simply received an A and spoke to the prof a few times. They will speak about the applicants personality, work ethic, how they interact in groups or with other students, etc.

It's not the same as shadowing a physician that does not know you outside of what you are leading on. And it's not the same as a physician that has known you your whole life saying positive things about you.
 
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You're forgetting that good LORs from professors are not the ones where a student has simply received an A and spoke to the prof a few times. They will speak about the applicants personality, work ethic, how they interact in groups or with other students, etc.

It's not the same as shadowing a physician that does not know you outside of what you are leading on. And it's not the same as a physician that has known you your whole life saying positive things about you.

I"m talking about a physician that the original poster had shadowed for 3 years. I'm sure that the physician knows a great deal about him/her. And the physician I spent almost 2 years with knows me a lot better than my professors. My professors that are writing my essays knew me, but they do not know me as well as my physician.
 
I worry when I see people who have more shadowing hours than actual patient contact volunteering experience.


I wrote my own thread, but would it still be useless if I was very interested in rural primary medicine, and had shadowed my rural physician for close to 1000 hours?
 
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I worry when I see people who have more shadowing hours than actual patient contact volunteering experience.

:rolleyes: You do realize that when shadowing a physician you aren't just sitting in an office all day, and that you're actually involved with patients? Also, not sure how you know how many volunteer hours I have?
 
Do you really have > 1000 volunteer hours?????

Chatting with patients while rounding with your doctors isn't the same as actually doing something for them. All shadowing does is let you know what a doctor's day is like.




:rolleyes: You do realize that when shadowing a physician you aren't just sitting in an office all day, and that you're actually involved with patients? Also, not sure how you know how many volunteer hours I have?
 
Do you really have > 1000 volunteer hours?????

Chatting with patients while rounding with your doctors isn't the same as actually doing something for them. All shadowing does is let you know what a doctor's day is like.

I have close to 1000 in both. It took me about 5 years to get there, as I took a year off after college. And I actually got less out of volunteering than I did from shadowing. When I volunteered I gave ice chips and passed out food. When I shadowed I was able to practice reading diagnostic tests, observe procedures so many times I could probably do them, and go to house calls in the middle of nowhere. So yeah, I say that it did more for me that volunteering did.
 
I've watched Grey's so many times that I basically know how to do the procedures myself also
 
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I have close to 1000 in both. It took me about 5 years to get there, as I took a year off after college. And I actually got less out of volunteering than I did from shadowing. When I volunteered I gave ice chips and passed out food. When I shadowed I was able to practice reading diagnostic tests, observe procedures so many times I could probably do them, and go to house calls in the middle of nowhere. So yeah, I say that it did more for me that volunteering did.
 
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Indeed. In all my years on the Adcom, I've only seen 1-2 bad LORs from a clinician. They're all of the "joe/Jill will make a fine physician." Very rarely will someone say " I'd like this person for my own physician".

Hence, they're indeed fluff.





That is why the vast majority of letters say "strongly recommend" the candidate but have no indepth evidence as to why the recommendation can be made. The vast majority of letters from all sources are fluff
 
That is why the vast majority of letters say "strongly recommend" the candidate but have no indepth evidence as to why the recommendation can be made. The vast majority of letters from all sources are fluff
 
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(DISCLAIMER: I am not an adcom. I don't have the in depth knowledge that adcom such as @gyngyn and @Goro have. They are donating their time to help applicants reach their goals, not to prevent people from achieving their goals.)
From my experience, I think this is the type of information that adcoms would look for: https://www.cordem.org/files/DOCUMENTLIBRARY/SLOR/SLOE Standard Letter of Evaluation 2015.pdf
It informs the adcom reader not only on how you compare to other applicants in a meaningful way, but also on how much experience your letter writer has had in evaluating applicants. As you can see, there is a section where the reviewer can go nuts about how amazing you are, but it's tempered by the rest of the review. If your LOR writer can write in such a framework, then it could be a much stronger letter than one that simply states you're great.

Secondly,
[...] I actually got less out of volunteering than I did from shadowing. When I volunteered I gave ice chips and passed out food. When I shadowed I was able to practice reading diagnostic tests, observe procedures so many times I could probably do them, and go to house calls in the middle of nowhere. So yeah, I say that it did more for me that volunteering did.

The purpose of volunteering is to understand and to relate/communicate/empathize with patients and their families. The purpose of shadowing is to understand what physicians do on a day-to-day basis, beyond the time that they are physically examining a patient. Perhaps I'm naive, but I believe that learning medicine (diagnosis, procedures, etc) is the reason we go to med school and residency. Also, FWIW, procedures often look a lot easier than they are to actually perform.
 
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They are not looking for the evidence of your achievements but rather the abilities and characteristics of how you got there (see attached). Your critical thinking, your class discussion, your involvement at recitation (TA sessions), office hours, reputation in the department , etc all are ways for students who have gotten to know professors. Not only can be expected that a premed should have be able to make a connection with a professor but that in medical school and residency, professional networking will become vitally important.
 
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Yes I understand that, which is why I feel like a letter from someone who knows me in a professional/academic environment (like an educational hospital) would be considerably more beneficial than a professor who has only met me during office hours to ask about an exam. Of course professional networking is very important, but I don't think it is at all related to a pre med student trying to develop a relationship with a professor that has hundreds of students in a single class. I honestly tried, but they tend to not be interested and are fully aware that people are just looking for LORs.

I guess I will just have to see and if schools request additional letters from professors I will have them write one. Still doesn't make any sense to me. My current plan is to have one letter from the doc I mentioned, one from my research PI and one from a professor that I did get to know because she works in the research lab.

I say go with it. I am, and I don't get why others are saying it's not as good as a professor in a huge class. Good luck this cycle!
 
They wont ask if you dont submit; depending how they process, you may never have your file closed and never get evaluated

Each medical school has specific requirements which typically fall into ONE of the following categories:

A) Individual Letters from 2 professors/instructors you have taken science classes with and 1 non-science professors/instructors you have taken a class with.
OR
B) Individual Letters from 2 science and 1 non-science faculty
OR
C) Prehealth Committee letter

This would mean, for example, that a professor you had a research job with wouldn't fill LOR requirement at schools which want A (class) but would fill B (faculty). Please note that these are typical requirements generally found at most schools; some schools have very specific and extensive letters required and it is up to you to know that.
 
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