LOR from Colorectal?

[Witch Doctor]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Is a LOR from a colorectal surgeon good for general surg, or should they be strictly from gsurg?

 

[Winged Scapula]

Its fine.

Colorectal surgeons are general surgery trained.

 

[surg]

no problem.

In general, I'd say:
Always ok: General, Colorectal, Vascular, GI, Minimally Invasive, Onc, HPB, Breast, Endocrine, Transplant, Ped Surg, and basically anything else I'm forgetting that involves a full training in general surgery 1st and still involves something a general surgeon could theoretically do if they were brave enough.

Mostly ok, but wouldn't want this to be the only kind of LOR I put in unless I wanted to go into it: CT

Generally avoid unless you can't come up with another letter (it'll bring up questions as to whether General Surg is a back-up): Plastics, Ortho, Urology, Neurosurgery, ENT

Avoid (generally no relevant information that a surgeon would use in their decision making unless it was particularly noteworthy): OB/Gyn, non-surgical specialties

Exception: If you have a research mentor that you did significant research with (i.e. a full time stint), I give weight to a letter from them if it happened during med school, even if they aren't a surgeon. This applies to academic programs in particular that you are indicating that you are interested in research in the future.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Good detailed advice as usual, surg. 👍

 

[Witch Doctor]

Thanks guys, I know I'm asking a lot of questions!

 

[agranulocytosis]

no problem.

In general, I'd say:
Always ok: General, Colorectal, Vascular, GI, Minimally Invasive, Onc, HPB, Breast, Endocrine, Transplant, Ped Surg, and basically anything else I'm forgetting that involves a full training in general surgery 1st and still involves something a general surgeon could theoretically do if they were brave enough.

Mostly ok, but wouldn't want this to be the only kind of LOR I put in unless I wanted to go into it: CT

Generally avoid unless you can't come up with another letter (it'll bring up questions as to whether General Surg is a back-up): Plastics, Ortho, Urology, Neurosurgery, ENT

Avoid (generally no relevant information that a surgeon would use in their decision making unless it was particularly noteworthy): OB/Gyn, non-surgical specialties

Exception: If you have a research mentor that you did significant research with (i.e. a full time stint), I give weight to a letter from them if it happened during med school, even if they aren't a surgeon. This applies to academic programs in particular that you are indicating that you are interested in research in the future.

Why is that the case with CT? I thought CT Surgeons were all trained in GS up until recently.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Why is that the case with CT? I thought CT Surgeons were all trained in GS up until recently.

I can't speculate on the reason why, except to say that I agree with surg. CT was and still is (at most programs) a fellowship after general surgery. However, unlike Colorectal, Vascular, and other fellowships, there seems to often be (at least at the programs I have experience with) anomosity between GS and CT. It was conventional wisdom not to come into a GS interview talking about your plans for fellowship - and that the only more sure kiss of death was to mention Plastics, then CTS! 😉

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I can't speculate on the reason why, except to say that I agree with surg. CT was and still is (at most programs) a fellowship after general surgery. However, unlike Colorectal, Vascular, and other fellowships, there seems to often be (at least at the programs I have experience with) anomosity between GS and CT. It was conventional wisdom not to come into a GS interview talking about your plans for fellowship - and that the only more sure kiss of death was to mention Plastics, then CTS! 😉

Maybe also b/c CT (and now vascular too) are looking at sort of pulling back from general surgery with their own integrated residencies similar to plastics.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Maybe also b/c CT (and now vascular too) are looking at sort of pulling back from general surgery with their own integrated residencies similar to plastics.

Perhaps.

Leading to the possibility that GS will *hate* everyone.😀

But not likely - its been that way for years (remember Integrated programs didn't exist in my day).

 

[surg]

No particular reason. It just is. I suspect that the reason it sticks out is that CT (more so for the cardiac folks than the thoracic folks) surgeons in general don't participate in general surgical societies in a significant way, and don't see a lot of general surgery residents except at the junior levels. This leads to a feeling of isolation from general surgery that is more so than the other specialties, although on the abstract level I agree that it shouldn't be so.

 

[agranulocytosis]

Thanks for the scoop. I had no idea about these things.

The reason I was asking is because I've got a CTS Sub-I set up for July, which is the prime time for obtaining LORs. Problem is, I've got Ortho right before and I know for certain I don't want an Ortho LOR for GS. So I'm kind of banking on my CTS rotation for a solid LOR or two, unless I can manage to set up a GS Sub-I for August. Even then, it'll put the recommendation writer in a position to bust it out quickly by Sept 1, so it'll likely be late and probably won't get out until Oct or Nov.

BTW, MSPEs don't get sent out until November, so if I send out apps without all of the LORs by Sept 1st, that won't necessarily be a problem, right?

Sorry to hijack this thread, just have a lot of thoughts that sprang up.

 

[Witch Doctor]

Why take the ortho elective if you know you want GS? Couldn't you just take a GS sub-i or elective during that time slot?

 

[thedrjojo]

Thanks for the scoop. I had no idea about these things.

The reason I was asking is because I've got a CTS Sub-I set up for July, which is the prime time for obtaining LORs. Problem is, I've got Ortho right before and I know for certain I don't want an Ortho LOR for GS. So I'm kind of banking on my CTS rotation for a solid LOR or two, unless I can manage to set up a GS Sub-I for August. Even then, it'll put the recommendation writer in a position to bust it out quickly by Sept 1, so it'll likely be late and probably won't get out until Oct or Nov.

BTW, MSPEs don't get sent out until November, so if I send out apps without all of the LORs by Sept 1st, that won't necessarily be a problem, right?

Sorry to hijack this thread, just have a lot of thoughts that sprang up.

definately dont need all or even any lor in when you submit eras on sept 1st. i had 2 come in mid occtober and got every interview i wanted. august and september are good lor monthes... anything later is slightly pushing it but most progs have nov 15th as deadline so if you have 3 already and think you cam get that prime letter in october to put you over the edge i would say go for it too.

and one cts letter wont kill you especialy if you target a thorax guy

 

[Winged Scapula]

Agree with above.

If you are a strong candidate, you don't need all your letters to be in on 9/1/10. Is November 15th the new deadline? Its traditionally been November 1 for years.

But why are you "wasting" a prime rotation month on Ortho if you aren't applying to Ortho? I'd put a GS or some other rotation in there if you are worried about letters.

As jojo notes, one CTS letter won't kill your application but you might try and target someone who does mostly thoracic work.

 

[agranulocytosis]

Thanks for the responses. I actually applied for 2 other rotations at that time, the 1st choice being a SICU elective and the 2nd choice Vascular. My 3rd choice was Ortho, and by the luck of the draw, I got placed into my 3rd choice. I applied to both of these rotations (Ortho followed by CTS) at the same time.

Edit: I'm doing these as aways as I have no home institution (caribbean student).

 

[doc05]

unless you are contemplating application to orthopedics, you should DEMAND a change in your schedule so that you can maximize your exposure to general surgery and related disciplines early on.

 

[surg]

Not to add any further stress to your life, but I have to agree with this. Assuming you don't want to go into ortho, doing an ortho rotation when you don't have enough gen surg rotations down to get your letters together is going to hurt more than it helps. It'll raise questions about your commitment to gen surg AND you can't get a letter out of it.

If there is any human way of switching to anything else, do it. Heck, even a medicine specialty month would be less damaging than an ortho month. Find a different place to go, that will take you for a gen surg month of virtually any flavor at this stage of the game. Being from the caribbean, you don't need any questions about your application, there's too many non-AMGs for me to spend time figuring out whether you are lying to me about wanting ortho or not. It's easier to just drop you altogether and put someone else in that slot that I know wants to do this.

 

[agranulocytosis]

Surg, thanks for breaking it down like that. I appreciate the advice and I'll try to get something else set up in lieu of Ortho. Like you said, I've already got one thing against me, I wouldn't want to be questioned in my motives, either.