LOR writer asked me "what do med schools want to hear?"

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walloobi said:
I have a great relationship with a professor of mine who's a HUGE advocate/supporter for me and my goals, and upon asking her for a LOR recently, she enthusiastically agreed, and also asked me what it is that med schools are looking for in applicants/what they want to hear from LOR writers. She can very thoroughly speak to just about any of my qualities (academic/intellectual ability, interpersonal, professional, passion/ambition, work ethic, general character, etc.), so what should I ask her to emphasize? This seems like a situation with potential for an incredible LOR, so I want to make sure to get the most out of what she has to say about me. Any tips on what I should recommend that she focus on? What is it that med schools are looking for in LOR's?

Prophylactic clarification: she asked because she doesn't have experience with many students who make it to an actual med school application; she's a professor at the CC I transferred from, and doesn't teach too many (real) pre-meds, and develops even less LOR-writer-type relationships with the few pre-meds she does teach. just wanted to prevent posts saying that she should figure it out herself/posts saying that it won't be a good LOR if she needs to ask how to write one.

Mods: I posted this here instead of the official LOR thread, since that thread seems to mostly be logistical questions that are answered by one main person, and I want to get a broader picture of what people feel constitutes a strong LOR
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I would just tell her to write about your character. Give her your PS so she has an idea about why you want to pursue medicine.
 
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I always approached letter writers with my CV, personal statement, academic transcripts, and any other supplemental information I felt they could use, and then discussed with them my life goals and the motivation behind it. I never explicitly said, "talk about X, Y, and Z," but most of my letter writers said they would attest to as many capabilities of mine as they possibly could with the documents I provided (my academics, extracurriculars, character, etc.). One of them said they (paraphrased): "bragged about [you and your accomplishments] and expressed why I thought you'd be an excellent medical student. I also talked about how I think you'd make a great doctor someday and are one of my very few students I would feel comfortable to have making life-or-death decisions for the future patient populace." Obviously I've never seen any of my letters, but y'know, something along those lines.
 
"Valuable member of the team. Functions at the level of an intern. Would be an asset as house officer for any program."

Might as well go hard in the paint
 
Cytarabine said:
"Valuable member of the team. Functions at the level of an intern. Would be an asset as house officer for any program."

Might as well go hard in the paint
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Haha I'll wait until med school for those kinds of recommendations
 
some tidbits I have picked up during my time on SDN regarding LOR's:

What you really want in an LOR is comments on your character, work ethic, teamwork, leadership, response to adversity, seeking improvement, etc. based on their interactions with you. Even better if they can provide a specific example or two that really paints a picture of your good qualities.(Ismet)

. Having a really outstanding letter from any writer is showing evidence of: 1)being in a situation, where they can know the applicant well; 2) providing a critical evaluation of the applicant; and 3) writing a compelling recommendation, is a minority, perhaps 5%. Another 25% are excellent in providing an adcom with good information on the candidate. The vast majority are just glowing and pretty uninformative for an adcom. Almost every letter says how good the candidate is but very few can show me any evidence why the writer has a connection to the applicant nor do they provide indepth insight. (gonnif)


They are not looking for the evidence of your achievements but rather the abilities and characteristics of how you got there (see attached). Your critical thinking, your class discussion, your involvement at recitation (TA sessions), office hours, reputation in the department , etc all are ways for students who have gotten to know professors. Not only can be expected that a premed should have be able to make a connection with a professor but that in medical school and residency, professional networking will become vitally important. (gonnif)

good threads to read:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/letters-of-recommendation.985472/

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/loe-writer-conflict-of-interest.1199401/

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...-my-personal-statement.1179446/#post-17324205
 
Skydive Fox said:
I always approached letter writers with my CV, personal statement, academic transcripts, and any other supplemental information I felt they could use, and then discussed with them my life goals and the motivation behind it. I never explicitly said, "talk about X, Y, and Z," but most of my letter writers said they would attest to as many capabilities of mine as they possibly could with the documents I provided (my academics, extracurriculars, character, etc.). One of them said they (paraphrased): "bragged about [you and your accomplishments] and expressed why I thought you'd be an excellent medical student. I also talked about how I think you'd make a great doctor someday and are one of my very few students I would feel comfortable to have making life-or-death decisions for the future patient populace." Obviously I've never seen any of my letters, but y'know, something along those lines.
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Second this. You want them to know as much about you outside the classroom as inside it. Personal statement, transcripts, and a CV are a must. I also had a couple non-confidential LORs from previous employers hanging around (that I couldn't use for amcas) so I provided those too for one professor that thought they'd help.

As for specifics, I've heard most med schools respond well to an LOR where the writer ranks the student among other premeds they've worked with. Eg "of all the pre-med students I've taught, waloobi is among the top 10 of my career".
 
walloobi said:
However, I fear that if a LOR-writer of mine needs my resume (and maybe personal statement - although this one's more understandable) to write my letter, then s/he doesn't feel that s/he really knows me well enough to write about his/her direct experiences with me and my qualities.
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I understand why you might think this, but there is another way to look at it. If this is a CC professor, you've likely done quite a few things since then, and no matter how close your relationship, people forget. Having a nice categorized, chronological list makes it easy to structure an LOR. Plus, as you go forward, you will have an ever larger pool of experience and qualifications that will need to be expressed in future LORs. Getting the system down now can only help you in the future.
 
I am going to argue hard against providing the letter writer with your CV, PS or any other material. I would make an exception for papers, abstracts, reports that you wrote for their class or lab, as a way to jog their memory of your written work.

The purpose of the LOR is not to rehash your biography. It should cover: in what context the writer got to know you (instructor, supervisor, "Master") and how long it's been, your work in the class/lab, your personal characteristics, and finally why the person thinks you would be a good medical student and eventually a good doctor.

Some things that a writer may have observed that doesn't come through in your CV would be verbal & written communication skills (hence providing a paper or two you wrote for the class), collaboration and teamwork with fellow students (how did you demonstrate this in labs?), respect for the opinions of others, outgoing, a willing (or even enthusiastic) participant in class discussion, curiosity and interest in the subject matter (sometimes mention will be made of attending office hours to learn more than was covered in class or to go beyond elementary concepts), "good hands" in lab, patience and perseverance in the face of difficulties (lab experiments that don't work out) and any personal difficulties that the faculty member was aware at when they were happening (e.g. you missed classes when both your grandfathers died of cancer within weeks of each other.)
 
LizzyM said:
I am going to argue hard against providing the letter writer with your CV, PS or any other material. I would make an exception for papers, abstracts, reports that you wrote for their class or lab, as a way to jog their memory of your written work.

The purpose of the LOR is not to rehash your biography. It should cover: in what context the writer got to know you (instructor, supervisor, "Master") and how long it's been, your work in the class/lab, your personal characteristics, and finally why the person thinks you would be a good medical student and eventually a good doctor.

Some things that a writer may have observed that doesn't come through in your CV would be verbal & written communication skills (hence providing a paper or two you wrote for the class), collaboration and teamwork with fellow students (how did you demonstrate this in labs?), respect for the opinions of others, outgoing, a willing (or even enthusiastic) participant in class discussion, curiosity and interest in the subject matter (sometimes mention will be made of attending office hours to learn more than was covered in class or to go beyond elementary concepts), "good hands" in lab, patience and perseverance in the face of difficulties (lab experiments that don't work out) and any personal difficulties that the faculty member was aware at when they were happening (e.g. you missed classes when both your grandfathers died of cancer within weeks of each other.)
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I think this is all nice in theory. But even the writer's I have known for years, that know everything about me down to my kid's teacher's names still ask for CV's, transcripts, and other things.

Ideally you don't want them to write from descriptions of what you have done, and from what I know none of them have. I think professors want to have these things so they personally know the full scope of you as a candidate, not just the facet of you that you have presented to them. Especially for semester long relationships, since you probably planned to have them as a writer.

It would be hard to argue, "X is the most brilliant premed I've met because they're doing splendidly in my class", but looking at their transcript they are failing others, have IAs for cheating, etc etc. I know one of my writers ranked me in terms of grades in prereqs, and course load. Although he verbally asked me about my courses and grades a few times over the years, I'm sure he didn't commit that to memory. Or compassion and other intangible qualities that get contradicted in your PS or activities. Essentially they can fact check the things they know about you, and get a better footing for whatever aspect they're choosing to highlight.


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WhittyPsyche said:
I think this is all nice in theory. But even the writer's I have known for years, that know everything about me down to my kid's teacher's names still ask for CV's, transcripts, and other things.

Ideally you don't want them to write from descriptions of what you have done, and from what I know none of them have. I think professors want to have these things so they personally know the full scope of you as a candidate, not just the facet of you that you have presented to them. Especially for semester long relationships, since you probably planned to have them as a writer.

It would be hard to argue, "X is the most brilliant premed I've met because they're doing splendidly in my class", but looking at their transcript they are failing others, have IAs for cheating, etc etc. I know one of my writers ranked me in terms of grades in prereqs, and course load. Although he verbally asked me about my courses and grades a few times over the years, I'm sure he didn't commit that to memory. Or compassion and other intangible qualities that get contradicted in your PS or activities. Essentially they can fact check the things they know about you, and get a better footing for whatever aspect they're choosing to highlight.


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I'm only telling you what I hear from my Dean. They want what the writer has observed, not the writer's opinion of your transcript and activities.
 
Both of you are right

Let me synthesize

Many LOR writers want a CV for all of @WhittyPsyche 's reasons, however @LizzyM is right that the letter should not rehash your CV and the whole point of the LOR is to communicate SOMETHING else that cannot be gleaned from your CV

I gave my LOR writers my transcripts, CV, PS, etc, but I also included LOR guidelines from a University (so it was 3rd party saying what was wanted not me trying to "instruct" them on the letter) that said exactly with Lizzy said, that the letter should address xyz and not be a rehash of the CV, because obviously the risk of giving the LOR writers your CV is that they use it to write the letter! that was my way of trying to mitigate the risk

I put together what all my LOR writers said was a very impressive package that made their job MUCH easier

-personalized cover letter thanking them summarizing the contents of the packet,
-pointing out what my grade in their class had been,
-that it was highlighted on my included transcripts,
-also included a "sample" of my graded work in their class,
-what my cGPA and sGPA were,
-that I included my CV
-PS,
-and a page that had instructions for using Interfolio to upload their letter, or to contact me should they need envelopes for the schools I was applying to,
-and a page that was the LOR guidelines for letter writers
all contained in a pocketed folder so it wouldn't all get mixed in with other papers

I had saved almost all of my graded work for all of college, and was able to approach like 12 letter writers. (1 physician, 2 employers, 1 PI, 4 science and 4 humanites, and keep in mind I did CC & Uni so I wanted a smattering of each type from both schools). Some will say they will write a letter for you and flake, so I ended up with I think 7, and probably used some combination of 5 of them for different schools.

Anyway, this is what I did for both med school and residency, and in both processes my letters were raved about.

YMMV.
 
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Crayola227 said:
Both of you are right

Let me synthesize

Many LOR writers want a CV for all of @WhittyPsyche 's reasons, however @LizzyM is right that the letter should not rehash your CV and the whole point of the LOR is to communicate SOMETHING else that cannot be gleaned from your CV

I gave my LOR writers my transcripts, CV, PS, etc, but I also included LOR guidelines from a University (so it was 3rd party saying what was wanted not me trying to "instruct" them on the letter) that said exactly with Lizzy said, that the letter should address xyz and not be a rehash of the CV, because obviously the risk of giving the LOR writers your CV is that they use it to write the letter! that was my way of trying to mitigate the risk

I put together what all my LOR writers said was a very impressive package that made their job MUCH easier

-personalized cover letter thanking them summarizing the contents of the packet,
-pointing out what my grade in their class had been,
-that it was highlighted on my included transcripts,
-also included a "sample" of my graded work in their class,
-what my cGPA and sGPA were,
-that I included my CV
-PS,
-and a page that had instructions for using Interfolio to upload their letter, or to contact me should they need envelopes for the schools I was applying to,
-and a page that was the LOR guidelines for letter writers
all contained in a pocketed folder so it wouldn't all get mixed in with other papers

I had saved almost all of my graded work for all of college, and was able to approach like 12 letter writers. (1 physician, 2 employers, 1 PI, 4 science and 4 humanites, and keep in mind I did CC & Uni so I wanted a smattering of each type from both schools). Some will say they will write a letter for you and flake, so I ended up with I think 7, and probably used some combination of 5 of them for different schools.

Anyway, this is what I did for both med school and residency, and in both processes my letters were raved about.

YMMV.
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That's exactly what I was saying. In any case, almost every professor explicitly ask for these things to be provided. You can't really say no I won't give you my CV or transcripts. All you can do in the scenario is urge that they write from their experiences and interactions. Plus the guidelines help them focus on what's important.

I actually had a discussion about this with some postbacs at my school, they were protesting the fact that all the prereq professors asked for CV and transcripts. I then discussed this with a physics professor. He outwardly told me that if a student won't provide those things he will not write a letter, it's his own due diligence.


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I guess I should clarify that I actually knew all my letter writers very well. I provided the CV, PS, transcript, etc. as supplements and always considered it a formality to provide them when asking for a LoR. A professor I asked one from last week said, "oh, this is great! I'll sprinkle some of these things onto the letter when writing it," when I handed over the supplemental docs. Sure, they could write a strong LoR without those things, but I happily provide anything that could potentially be used to reinforce the letter.

I would respectfully disagree with the idea of asking for a LoR without providing any supplemental documents, regardless of my relationship with the writer.
 
LizzyM said:
It took me 10 years to get people to stop wearing black suits to interviews. I'll spend the next 10 overhauling the LOR process from the applicant end and then I'll be ready to retire.
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Huh? About half my interview days had all black suits (besides my gray 😛). Others had only 1-2 blue/gray.

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LizzyM said:
It took me 10 years to get people to stop wearing black suits to interviews. I'll spend the next 10 overhauling the LOR process from the applicant end and then I'll be ready to retire.
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I'll take black suits over fluff letters any day!
 
jih said:
Huh? About half my interview days had all black suits (besides my gray 😛). Others had only 1-2 blue/gray.

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We must operate in different circles. This past season I saw about 50-50 black/other (mostly shades of gray or deep blue). I consider that a win.
 
LizzyM said:
We must operate in different circles. This past season I saw about 50-50 black/other (mostly shades of gray or deep blue). I consider that a win.
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I mostly interviewed in the Midwest, as well as at Einstein.
 
Haha I had such an argument with my girlfriend when she was absolutely insisting I get a black suit for interviews. Black suits are for excessively formal events and/or funerals. That's it.

I ended up just going without her and getting a charcoal one.
 
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LizzyM said:
I am going to argue hard against providing the letter writer with your CV, PS or any other material. I would make an exception for papers, abstracts, reports that you wrote for their class or lab, as a way to jog their memory of your written work.
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100% agree. I never provided my CV etc to my writers because I didn't want them to write about what's already elsewhere in my application.

What you ideally want in a letter is a few anecdotes that illustrate the applicant's qualities. Instead of saying Walloobi has been a tremendous pleasure to work with due to his diligence, creativity, blah blah...it would be much more powerful to pick a few qualities and let the experience illustrate it. "Our lab has been recently working on cloning a particularly difficult construct. Although it was not Walloobi's project, Walloobi was eager to try his hand at the cloning, expressing that the best way to learn in-depth about a particular technique was to troubleshoot. Starting with an eager smile, Walloobi quickly realized that he too could not clone the construct. Working long hours for two weeks, however, he finally managed to clone the construct through an ingenious method [go on to describe it in a nontechnical way if possible...]! This is a major breakthrough as even three commercial companies were unable to clone this construct and is the first of its kind in the world......
 
LizzyM said:
I am going to argue hard against providing the letter writer with your CV, PS or any other material. I would make an exception for papers, abstracts, reports that you wrote for their class or lab, as a way to jog their memory of your written work.
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I agree completely, I think the Personal Statement and transcript are especially bad things to give the letter writer. There is a risk the letter writer will repeat something from the Personal Statement or mention something about the transcript, and an attentive adcom can definitely see that repetition and realize that it is not first-hand observation. Not only that, repeating it is unnecessary because the adcom has those things.

I'm really not sure why a letter writer should want your Personal Statement or transcript. Your transcript seems especially useless - if they thought you were super smart and your transcript has bad grades, then your letter quality goes down, and if they thought you were stupid and your transcript has good grades, why on earth did you choose this letter writer? You should choose someone who thinks you are smart and doesn't care what your transcript says.

I wouldn't include a CV, which sometimes implies a longer document with all your publications, but I might include a one-page résumé, possibly with the GPA deleted (so that they don't mention it in the letter). I'm not sure. The resume just reminds them where you are from, what major you are/were, when you graduated/will graduate, and maybe some other details that will jog their memory. If it is an email request then I would also include a headshot to jog their memory. Your resume also has your contact information and the correct full spelling of your name.
 
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