Low GPA and High DAT

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CCDDS

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My friend started off college well but then started to decline. He ended with a overall 3.2 science 3.1.

He did well on the DAT with
PAT - 24
QR - 18
RC - 19
BIO - 20
OC - 21
GC - 22
TS -21
AA - 20

Extracurricular is moderate
Volunteer is moderate
Shadow is moderate

What schools would you recommend for the best possibility to get in? Do you recommend retaking courses?
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CCDDS said:
My friend started off college well but then started to decline. He ended with a overall 3.2 science 3.1.

He did well on the DAT with
PAT - 24
QR - 18
RC - 19
BIO - 20
OC - 21
GC - 22
TS -21
AA - 20

Extracurricular is moderate
Volunteer is moderate
Shadow is moderate

What schools would you recommend for the best possibility to get in? Do you recommend retaking courses?
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Where did he go to College?
 
UOP is the one school i know of that will almost overlook gpa completeley in favor of a high DAT, i think he's got a good shot going there.
 
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Houston Baptist University, a small private university. So i doubt schools know anything about its difficulty.
 
I'm on the same boat.. Any advise on choosing schools appreciated..
 
Take new courses. The dat is fine and won't go up much. Bring the gpa up with new upper division courses.
 
He's a Texas Resident. What is the lowest GPA you have encountered at Baylor. GPA cant go up that much when 130hours have already been taken.
 
i think if you're close to the average, then it's definately w/in striking range. admissions has so many moving parts for acceptance criteria, so if you're even close; i'd say apply.
 
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20 is for sure high enough to get in. i know several students there w/ 20's. the gpa might be a little lower but they might have something in their app or ps that could make up for it. either way, it's close enough to apply. you don't have to be average to apply to a school. if you're average than you're in a better place than 50% of your classmates. all i'm saying is that they should apply, not that they'd get in neccesarily, just that's it's definately worth applying.
 
I was thinking that he should because if the average is 21 some people get 22 some get 20.

I told him to try schools like NYU, Tuft, BU.

Im also applying. How good are those schools. I hear a lot about Tuft. Why is it so hyped up?
 
I was thining that if the average is 21 then some people get 22 some get 20 and of course people get 21.

I recommended him to try schools like NYU, BU, and Tuft.

I am applying myself and people say Tuft is a good school? What is so good about it if their stats are low.
 
somethinpositiv said:
Let's take UoP for example. Most likely if someone was on the lower end of the spectrum for DAT there, they would be on the higher end of the spectrum for GPA; one compensates for the other. And vice versa for being on the lower end of the spectrum for GPA, and higher end of the spectrum for DAT. For example, a random sampling of the UoP matriculant pool might look something like this: 3.4 GPA and 21 DAT, 3.8 GPA and 20 DAT, 3.0 GPA and 23 DAT, and so on. If both your DAT and GPA are lower than that school's average, then it is unlikely that you will gain acceptance due to the competitiveness of the applicant pool (with thousands of applicants, there will be at least hundreds that have better stats, as well as equally impressive ECs/PS/LoRs). If you were slightly below the school's average on both GPA and DAT, you might be an attractive candidate.. if you were URM. If not, you've got an uphill battle. It is not as rosy as your scenario, where a 3.2 GPA with 20 DAT is balanced by a 3.6 GPA and 22 DAT, it's more like the 3.2 would have a 22 DAT and the 3.6 would have the 20 DAT. All of that being said, you should still try and apply to UoP anyways. You'll have a much better chance at NYU, BU, and Tufts though.
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you're looking at admissions in a two dimension way (gpa and dat.. 1 goes up, 1 goes down) when there are way more aspects that go into it, uop and anywhere else. there are also high dat and high gpa and lower dat and lower gpa. you don't need to be a URM. to the OP...apply!
 
i'll say apply as many as possible.
i went to UT (much harder than HBU) and had 21/20/21 with 3.38/3.09 sgpa and I only applied to 4 out-of-state last year including UoP, NYU, Temple, and Howard but had 0 interviews from any of those. I had 2 interviews from texas schools but also did not get in due to my low science gpa (this is what dean at SA told me when I had a meeting).
this year, i'll be applying to 13 out-of-state dental schools including UoP, Tufts, BU, VCU, USC, and etc.
you can find names of those schools with little bit of research on this forum and www.predents.com

lemme know if you need more help
 
somethinpositiv said:
Oracle, I'm guessing you were low on both dimensions, yet still got into dental school; is that why you are pushing your point so hard? If so, congratulations, you are proved me wrong. You win. Then again, if this is the case, you were probably the exception and not the rule.
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hahaha my whole story is on SDN, i'm not hiding anything. i really think you have no idea how admissions works at any school. its like you read a bunch of SDN posts and put it together in one unified theory of BS. hahaha admissions is not a linear x+y+z=acceptence. applicants all have different stories about how they got to where they are which puts their app in a context, which you often ignore. i'm not pushing my point, i just can't sit back and watch your "group thought" posts put bad information out there. the OP could certainly get into uop, but you see 1 part of his app and try to shut him out....its unbelievable. applying to schools isn't about applying to schools you know you can get into (if those schools exist) but applying to schools you MIGHT get into, in which case the OP should definately apply to uop if that's where he wants to go.
 
OP seems to have a good shot at NYU, BU, Tufts, and heck apply to UOP as your reach school. somethinpositiv has his facts but there are other parameters involved in your application aside from just DAT/GPA which I see thats what oracle is supporting. Another thing, about the EC/shadowing and etc that was mentioned, yes most people will have them but it is your PS that states what you have experienced and learned from it. Not everyone learns the same thing from the experiences. So try to mention them in your PS.

Anyhow when applying have a bunch of schools that you fall in and would like to attend and have several reach schools. You never know unless you give it a try. Good luck.
 
Oracle DMD said:
a 20 can't be that low for any school. if it is below avg it can't be by much.
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Harvard, Columbia, and UCLA have an avg of 22+ so a 20 would be pretty low actually
 
achilles2 said:
Harvard, Columbia, and UCLA have an avg of 22+ so a 20 would be pretty low actually
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i know. but a 20 will keep you in the game for admissions. why? because they all routinely accept people w/ 20 DAT scores. and some of those don't have the gpa you would think would "make up" for it.....there are a lot of things that go into getting accpeted to any particular school.
 
Personally, I think DAT and GPA complement each other. No school will completely ignore one in favor of the other. This should make sense, because if you have a high GPA and a low DAT, then your high GPA may not be legitimate (You might have taken lots of units at CC aiming for easy A's in order to save your GPA from crashing); on the other hand, if you have a low GPA and a high DAT, it may be because you've slacked off for 4 years of undergrad and all the sudden you've realized you wanted to become a dentist. Obviously, dental school isn't the best place for slacking off, so a high DAT doesn't necessarily compensate for a low GPA.
In case of your friend, both his/her GPA and DAT are average. So, personally, I think as long as he/she chooses his/her schools wisely he/she would have a good chance of getting in.
 
Oracle DMD said:
i know. but a 20 will keep you in the game for admissions. why? because they all routinely accept people w/ 20 DAT scores. and some of those don't have the gpa you would think would "make up" for it.....there are a lot of things that go into getting accpeted to any particular school.
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the difference between ~85%ile and 96+%ile is pretty significant. If you have a sub 3.5 GPA your odds are not that great unless you have a congressional medal of honor, navy cross, nobel peace prize, or some other insane EC or award lol.

Not saying not to apply but don't think the odds are in your favor. I've split 10's in blackjack and won but it doesn't change that fact that I wasn't playing the odds.

nze82 said:
Personally, I think DAT and GPA complement each other. No school will completely ignore one in favor of the other. This should make sense, because if you have a high GPA and a low DAT, then your high GPA may not be legitimate (You might have taken lots of units at CC aiming for easy A's in order to save your GPA from crashing); on the other hand, if you have a low GPA and a high DAT, it may be because you've slacked off for 4 years of undergrad and all the sudden you've realized you wanted to become a dentist. Obviously, dental school isn't the best place for slacking off, so a high DAT doesn't necessarily compensate for a low GPA.
In case of your friend, both his/her GPA and DAT are average. So, personally, I think as long as he/she chooses his/her schools wisely he/she would have a good chance of getting in.
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I agree. This is why completing a masters with a significant course load will increase your odds. Adcoms like to see dedication and work ethics, however, a significant DAT score will never be completely overlooked (especially by schools like Columbia and UoP of course Columbia isn't going to consider a 22 to be that special with a low GPA but a 24+ is always hard to throw away the app before opening the file, also NYU i've heard is willing to fogive some GPA for steller DAT scores and UCLA likes to run up there DAT AA avg). The only schools i've seen that will not lower there GPA stats significantly are (Stony, Buffalo, and Harvard, but that is in my VERY limited experience).
The most effective and time sparing method to increase your odds of acceptance is to re-take the DAT and get a 22+. However, that being said if you have a year of downtime regardless its good advice to be working towards something (may it be a masters) or retaking courses you did poorly in.

A 3.2 and 20 isn't tragic if you cast a wide net I'm sure you will get some hits. That being said its always good to never assume victory and you have little to lose except 150$ retaking the DAT if you think you can score higher. This is an example of when your EC's, PS, and life experience may play a significant role in getting interviews.

The best advice I can give to all on this forum is always be working towards bettering yourself and your application. If you boarderline there is nothing wrong with hoping for the best, however, to simply bank on that is not a great idea. Get your backup plans in order and if you believe you can score higher on the DAT continue studying for that. Imagine how it looks if you are granted an interview and you can bring with you new and higher DAT scores and you can tell the interviewer how you are re-taking courses you did poorly in. Thats going to speak alot about you without words. Its a game of inches sometimes, just keep striving til your in. Then carry that over while you are there.

You know what the adcoms don't want to hear? "Oh I was sick, oh I had a death in the family, oh my cat got hit by a car" Excuses thats what they don't like. You know what you want to say when your asked about a shortcoming? "Its my fault, I take responsibility, I wasn't mentality mature, I didn't find an effective way to deal with the situation, BUT, this is what I've learned and more importantely THIS is what I did about it". Adcoms don't want excuses for failing, they want to see action about how you faced something, even if you got knocked down, and found a way to get back up and prevail. That can be retaking a course you did poorly in, studying your brains off and retaking the DAT and earning a high score, etc.

Regardless best of luck this admission cycle.
 
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achilles2 said:
the difference between ~85%ile and 96+%ile is pretty significant. If you have a sub 3.5 GPA your odds are not that great unless you have a congressional medal of honor, navy cross, nobel peace prize, or some other insane EC or award lol.
Click to expand...

For people with GPAs in the 3.3-3.5 range, I doubt it. A GPA in that range with a good DAT (and an otherwise solid app) will probably get in somewhere.
 
achilles2 said:
the difference between ~85%ile and 96+%ile is pretty significant. If you have a sub 3.5 GPA your odds are not that great unless you have a congressional medal of honor, navy cross, nobel peace prize, or some other insane EC or award lol.

Not saying not to apply but don't think the odds are in your favor. I've split 10's in blackjack and won but it doesn't change that fact that I wasn't playing the odds.
Click to expand...

applying to dental school is not about playing the odds. if you have a shot at getting in and you like the school, you apply. if it's a 1:30...apply. if its 1:50....apply. if it's 1:a million .... and you reaaaallllly like the school.....apply.
 
Oracle DMD said:
applying to dental school is not about playing the odds. if you have a shot at getting in and you like the school, you apply. if it's a 1:30...apply. if its 1:50....apply. if it's 1:a million .... and you reaaaallllly like the school.....apply.
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I respect the point your trying to make. But what I'm trying to say is if you REALLY like that school and the odds are not in your favor you may want to take action to try and increase your odds. Not saying don't apply but I'm saying you shouldn't sit around and twiddle your thumbs.
 
CCDDS said:
My friend started off college well but then started to decline. He ended with a overall 3.2 science 3.1.
Extracurricular is moderate
Volunteer is moderate
Shadow is moderate


I think these are also some big issues to bring up. If someone were to start out with a really low gpa, such as a 1.X or 2.X then really started to improve (getting 4.0's for the next 2 or 3 years), then a 3.2 might be easier to overlook. However, in this case, as you stated, this person started off well then declined to obtain this 3.2. Adcoms look favorably on increases in gpa over the years rather than a decline over the years (it looks like you can't handle upper division courses). In addition, the fact that the ECS/Volunteer, etc are just moderate are going to harm this applicant as well. Most applicants have outstanding ECs, esp those that have lower gpas or lower DATs.

I think that this applicant should do a masters or SMP to prove they can hold a high gpa with upper division courses in addition to improving their ECs/personal statement. If the applicant feels absolutely sure they can do better on the DAT, then retake it--if not, the score is good enough.
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trixie2126 said:
CCDDS said:
My friend started off college well but then started to decline. He ended with a overall 3.2 science 3.1.
Extracurricular is moderate
Volunteer is moderate
Shadow is moderate


I think these are also some big issues to bring up. If someone were to start out with a really low gpa, such as a 1.X or 2.X then really started to improve (getting 4.0's for the next 2 or 3 years), then a 3.2 might be easier to overlook. However, in this case, as you stated, this person started off well then declined to obtain this 3.2. Adcoms look favorably on increases in gpa over the years rather than a decline over the years (it looks like you can't handle upper division courses). In addition, the fact that the ECS/Volunteer, etc are just moderate are going to harm this applicant as well. Most applicants have outstanding ECs, esp those that have lower gpas or lower DATs.

I think that this applicant should do a masters or SMP to prove they can hold a high gpa with upper division courses in addition to improving their ECs/personal statement. If the applicant feels absolutely sure they can do better on the DAT, then retake it--if not, the score is good enough.
Click to expand...

I understand that they want to see an improvement in grades but when you start off with 3.75 and double major in Biology/chemistry, where classes get harder, a decline is common. A double major in 2 science would show that they can handle upper level courses.
Do you think they will take this in consideration? Or would an applicant with a 3.75 and a DAT of 18-19 who single majors in an easier field and only took the pre-reqs still have the upper hand?
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CCDDS said:
trixie2126 said:
I understand that they want to see an improvement in grades but when you start off with 3.75 and double major in Biology/chemistry, where classes get harder, a decline is common. A double major in 2 science would show that they can handle upper level courses.
Do you think they will take this in consideration? Or would an applicant with a 3.75 and a DAT of 18-19 who single majors in an easier field and only took the pre-reqs still have the upper hand?
Click to expand...

I know they consider how difficult your courseload is. I think it depends on how much the GPA goes down. If it goes down a lot and you go from getting mostly As and some Bs down to mostly Bs and some Cs or something, then I could see how adcoms might view that as a problem.
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lphiewok said:
i'll say apply as many as possible.
i went to UT (much harder than HBU) and had 21/20/21 with 3.38/3.09 sgpa and I only applied to 4 out-of-state last year including UoP, NYU, Temple, and Howard but had 0 interviews from any of those. I had 2 interviews from texas schools but also did not get in due to my low science gpa (this is what dean at SA told me when I had a meeting).
this year, i'll be applying to 13 out-of-state dental schools including UoP, Tufts, BU, VCU, USC, and etc.
you can find names of those schools with little bit of research on this forum and www.predents.com

lemme know if you need more help
Click to expand...

It is optimistic to hear that you got 2 interviews because that is better than a straight up rejection and gives one a chance to defend anything questionable on the application.

I was wondering..
1) What did your major in at UT?
2) How would you know UT is much harder than HBU?(I understand you earned a higher overall score but not a higher TS score, so UT cant be MUCH HARDER)
3) Are you sure your science GPA was the reason? If it was the only reason they wouldnt have given you an interview and waste your time and money.
4)What reason did you give them for the low grades?
5) My friend got a 20/21/24, which shows a stronger background in science. Do you think that would give them a reason to overlook the GPA?
 
bump
 
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Slacker24 said:
lol or... people with high GPA dont need to do well on the DAT so slack off, and people with low GPA NEED to do REALLY well on the DAT therefore put more time into it.
Click to expand...

It's exactly that kind of approach that keeps you out of dental school!
 
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