Low UG GPA - how low can you go?

[Lurdes777]

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I was readinng some topics and now questioning my UG GPA... It would be great to hear what was your low GPA (under 3.0) and whether you were accepted to medical school or not.

 

[Lurdes777]

"For example, for the 2005 school year, 155 applicants were accepted to allopathic medical schools (out of 17,978 total accepted that year) with a GPA that was lower than a 2.75. So, it is possible to gain admission with a low GPA, but you can see from these numbers that this is very rare. Also, these individuals most likely had stellar applications otherwise (or a very rich uncle whose name you can find on the seven-digit donation plaques in the hallway of the medical school).

For most of the allopathic (MD) medical schools, an average GPA of 3.0 is the minimum they will consider for extending interview invitations, regardless of what the rest of your application looks like, but there are a few exceptions"

 

[Perrotfish]

For allo schools, the average for non-minority applicants last year was a 3.7 and a 31 on the MCAT. Anything under a 3.0 is out of the question, anything under a 3.2 is pretty much out of the question.

The exception is if you go to, and perform well in, a Special Masters program. Quite a few alumni of SMPs have gotten accepted into medical schools off the strength of their performance there with sub 3.0 GPAs. The programs generally accept people with 'unbalanced' applicatoins (low GPA and high MCAT or , rarely, vice-versa)

Just out of curitosity, how bad it your GPA, what is your MCAT score (if any), and how far along are you in school?

 

[Law2Doc]

The exception is if you go to, and perform well in, a Special Masters program.

A number of the SMP programs set their minimums at 3.0 as well, because that is the starting point they often need to work their magic. Why is why doing a bit of informal postbac before enrolling in an SMP is not unheard of.

 

[Perrotfish]

A number of the SMP programs set their minimums at 3.0 as well, because that is the starting point they often need to work their magic. Why is why doing a bit of informal postbac before enrolling in an SMP is not unheard of

This isn't true. While most SMPs have a minimum 'recommended' GPA of 3.0, the only hard and fast minimum GPA requirements are at Loyola (3.0) and EVMS (2.75). All other programs allow you to apply with a sub 3.0 GPA, provided you have a high enough MCAT score to balance it out. A significant percentage of students at all the major SMP programs ther than Loyola have sub 3.0 GPAs.

 

[Maxprime]

I was readinng some topics and now questioning my UG GPA... It would be great to hear what was your low GPA (under 3.0) and whether you were accepted to medical school or not.

2.6 UG, but did well in my post-bacc - you really need to show them some recent evidence that your grades don't reflect your abilities (also, destroy the MCAT). But, against the odds, I got in. 🙂

 

[Law2Doc]

This isn't true. While most SMPs have a minimum 'recommended' GPA of 3.0,

They recommend a minimum, set a minimum, either way they are telegraphing that they can do more for someone with a 3.0+ than someone below that threshold. If it didn't matter they wouldn't put that number on their websites at all. I personally find it telling that a number of people on this site, after soliciting advice from a variety of sources, have done informal postbacs to get their GPAs up to the 3.0 level so they can get into the more competitive SMP programs.

 

[Lurdes777]

2.6 UG, but did well in my post-bacc - you really need to show them some recent evidence that your grades don't reflect your abilities (also, destroy the MCAT). But, against the odds, I got in. 🙂

Mine is 2.59... I went to school righ after I divorced with a 9month old baby, woring full time. My transcripts show improvement wth every semester and consisant GPA growth.

I am getting really discouraged my everyone who is either med student or a doctor. All say that I stand NO chances even if I do really well on MCAT and post-bacc. Moreover, they say that I will not get into post-bacc with this GPA...


I have my heart set fo MD, but may be it will be more wise to become an NP, considering all odds of NOT getting into med school with gpa this low...

 

[Lurdes777]

For allo schools, the average for non-minority applicants last year was a 3.7 and a 31 on the MCAT. Anything under a 3.0 is out of the question, anything under a 3.2 is pretty much out of the question.

The exception is if you go to, and perform well in, a Special Masters program. Quite a few alumni of SMPs have gotten accepted into medical schools off the strength of their performance there with sub 3.0 GPAs. The programs generally accept people with 'unbalanced' applicatoins (low GPA and high MCAT or , rarely, vice-versa)

Just out of curitosity, how bad it your GPA, what is your MCAT score (if any), and how far along are you in school?

I haven't look into SMP possibility - thanks for an advise.

 

[Perrotfish]

Mine is 2.59... I went to school righ after I divorced with a 9month old baby, woring full time. My transcripts show improvement wth every semester and consisant GPA growth.

I am getting really discouraged my everyone who is either med student or a doctor. All say that I stand NO chances even if I do really well on MCAT and post-bacc. Moreover, they say that I will not get into post-bacc with this GPA...


I have my heart set fo MD, but may be it will be more wise to become an NP, considering all odds of NOT getting into med school with gpa this low...

If you want to do the SMP

1) Get your GPA up to at least a 2.75, probably a 2.8. You don't need a formal post-bac program for this, just take more classes at the school you graduated from. Declare a minor or something.

2) KILL the MCAT. At least a 31+, probably a 34+

3) Apply to, and get into, the SMP (Look on SDNs post bac forums for a list of programs, descriptions, and costs).

4) Do very, very well there.

5) Go to medical school

Your only other real options are

1) Take more undergraduate classes to get your GPA up to a 3.2 or so, once again do very well on the MCAT, Shadow a DO, go to DO school.

2) Keep your current GPA but do very well on the MCAT. Go to the Caribbean. Don't fail out or you're burried in debt forever. Not sure how this works with a kid.

Anyway I just finished an SMP with a 2.82 undergraduate GPA. When I first talked to my premed advisor she pretty much laughed at me. Don't get discouraged, but be aware that you're going to need to do significantly above average on your MCATs.

 

[Maxprime]

If you want to do the SMP

Get your GPA up to at least a 2.75, probably a 2.8.
KILL the MCAT. At least a 31+, probably a 34+

With a 2.8, you're going to need to do better on the MCAT - 35+. Check out mdapps, those are the scores you need to have any chance of coming back from a sub 3.0 GPA (for non-URM).

 

[Lokhtar]

For MD schools, what type of MCAT score would make you competitive for a 3.55 GPA (3.2 sci) with a very strong upward trend (3.9 in last 70 credits). I don't have any state schools.

 

[Lokhtar]

It's possible to get into one of the lower tier SMPs with a 2.8 and a 31 on the MCAT. The only difference is that then you need to be in the top 10-20% of your SMP class to be accepted into medical school, as opposed to the top 90% at the highest tier SMPs.

Really? I've heard most schools advertize a 75+% acceptance rate.

 

[Law2Doc]

Really? I've heard most schools advertize a 75+% acceptance rate.

The ones that are more selective in terms of GPA and MCAT are able to advertise this. They cherry pick the applicants they can do most with, and keep the stats high. Which is why if you can't get into a competitive SMP you might not be much better off than taking stuff on your own IMHO.

 

[JMT]

Mine is 2.59... I went to school righ after I divorced with a 9month old baby, woring full time. My transcripts show improvement wth every semester and consisant GPA growth.

I am getting really discouraged my everyone who is either med student or a doctor. All say that I stand NO chances even if I do really well on MCAT and post-bacc. Moreover, they say that I will not get into post-bacc with this GPA...


I have my heart set fo MD, but may be it will be more wise to become an NP, considering all odds of NOT getting into med school with gpa this low...

If you really want to be a MD, you might also want to consider the Carribean medical schools. The good ones most likely would not take you. However you can go through there pre-med program and go directly into their medical program. For example, if you get into MUA's premed program (2 semester duration = 8 months) and finish with a 3.0 then they would accept you into their medical program. Yes its a Carribean school but your still a doctor in the end. If you enter a SMP program, theres no guarantee that you would get accepted into medical school afterwards and you would just add on to your debt.

 

[acbyrd]

2.98 in Business Management Undergraduate (Class of 2000)
4.0 in medical prerequisites last year after I decided to apply (2 x 12hr semesters)
MCAT score below average nationally, but above average for the average student at my school.
Accepted into med school no problems

 

[Tekar]

"For example, for the 2005 school year, 155 applicants were accepted to allopathic medical schools (out of 17,978 total accepted that year) with a GPA that was lower than a 2.75. So, it is possible to gain admission with a low GPA, but you can see from these numbers that this is very rare. Also, these individuals most likely had stellar applications otherwise (or a very rich uncle whose name you can find on the seven-digit donation plaques in the hallway of the medical school).

The trouble with statistics like the 155 students below 2.75 of 17,989 is that it doesn't really show anything about ability to get into medical school. It's very skewed. The reasoning is that is doesn't show a comparison of students who got in versus those that applied with below a 2.75. That's the number that might be helpful, but even then. The vast majority of medical school applicants have really good GPA's, not because it is required, but because they'd have those grades in whatever they do. Another statistic that very few people seem to grasp.. the acceptance rates of medical schools being 10-20% of those interviewed, etc. is also very skewed. When so many of us apply to 10-20 schools and interview at however many, we are all part of making the numbers look very discouraging. We have to choose one, so ifyou sent out 20 applications, you're acceptance rate may be as low as 5% if you get one invite, but if you go.. you're in. Last year, about half of AMCAS applicants matriculated to medical school. Ponder that for a bit.

It would seem to me that with a GPA that low, you gotta shine in other ways. The MCAT would seem to be a good place, but consider some other aspects as well. Volunteering leading to employment in an Emergency room. I took an EMT-B course and am now working in an Emergency Room. Consider getting involved in community coalition groups, political parties, and leaderships roles in some of those. (The only thing that separates leaders from the masses in those groups are people who simply decide to get involved in the leadership) Assuming you have interviews, your performance there has to be one that picks you out of the crowd. I would discuss the experience of your divorce and what it did to your world either in your Essay or in the interview as well... Doctors seem to be a group of people who can relate to collapsing marriages. Also if you can afford it.. perhaps retake some of the classes you bombed so that AMCAS takes the average of the two, not just the low.

And Damnit

I have my heart set on MD,

Then don't let anyone stand in your way. Do whatever it takes to show what you can do.. Grades only go so far at predicting success. I taught High school for 2 years before I decided to try for medical school. My MCAT sucked, my grades were Average for medical school, but I'm interviewing. Don't let ANYONE, docs included, dissuade you from doing what you want in this world. Keep in mind, the doctors' experience with the application process is limited to their own unless they are involved with the interview process in their community. You also need to find a couple respected people to write amazing letters of recommendations. That goes without saying, but as a non-traditional, they have to be unique.

Good luck... and naysayers be damned.


Don't give up after the first time either. My EMT instructor had a family friend who got in on the 5th.. yes 5th try. If you want to be a doc..make it happen..

 

[Lurdes777]

Thank you all very much! I am currently exploring options for post-bacc.and nursing programs as well. Looks like pre-reqs are almost the same for both so I will start slow and will A's those classes.

 

[Vihsadas]

With a 2.8, you're going to need to do better on the MCAT - 35+. Check out mdapps, those are the scores you need to have any chance of coming back from a sub 3.0 GPA (for non-URM).

Agree. There is enough anecdotal evidence on MDapps to support this (for MD schools). You could probably get away with slightly less at DO schools.

It's possible to get into one of the lower tier SMPs with a 2.8 and a 31 on the MCAT. The only difference is that then you need to be in the top 10-20% of your SMP class to be accepted into medical school, as opposed to the top 90% at the highest tier SMPs.

Getting into an SMP and getting into medical schools are completely different. I don't know where your info comes from, but I know that georgetown's numbers are highly inflated (Gtown is probably the mots well respected MS granting SMP in the country.) From what I heard from the insiders I know there, they count international med school acceptances and DO acceptances in those numbers. Top 90% at Gtown's SMP will NOT cut it. To be competitive after an SMP you really need to have a 3.7 or at the very, very least (if the rest of your app is good) a 3.6.

Really? I've heard most schools advertize a 75+% acceptance rate.

At georgetown specifically its inflated. They've been getting less and less friendly to their SMP students year by year. Quite sad really. I really believe that the top 25% of the SMP class is much better prepared than most premeds.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Mine is 2.59... I went to school righ after I divorced with a 9month old baby, woring full time. My transcripts show improvement wth every semester and consisant GPA growth.

It seems you left out a letter in the bolded word. So were you working fulltime or Whoring full time? It could make your story much more interesting.

The ones that are more selective in terms of GPA and MCAT are able to advertise this. They cherry pick the applicants they can do most with, and keep the stats high. Which is why if you can't get into a competitive SMP you might not be much better off than taking stuff on your own IMHO.

The better ones do cherry pick their students while the lower tiered ones do not. So there are a lot of kids that can't cut it and a bunch that can. Really anyone who would succeed in Gtown or EVMS would succeed in a lower tier one but without shelling out 40K.

I did a 'lower tiered' one (VCU) w/ a 2.8 undergrad and got in to MCV/VCU medical school w/ no glide year. If you cant get into one of the well known programs might was well do a less competitive one. But, before you even think about SMPs you need to improve your undergraduate GPA. SMPs are listed under graduate GPA and thus do nothing to improve the undergrad GPA. You will need to improve the undergrad GPA as close to 3.0 as possible.

 

[Cutie Dibbles]

Just to be a little ray of hope...

I have an undergrad GPA of 2.8, and the many post-bac classes I took only averaged out to 3.1. My MCAT is a respectable but not particularly compensatory 33. I'm white and upper middle class and I haven't spent the last few years rescuing sick babies in outer space or anything, either. AND, I just had a wonderful interview at Penn State.

Now, who knows if I'll get in, but they only interview people they're seriously considering (although it's a fairly generous one-third of in-state residents, which I am). I was told by my premed adviser that my chances were next to zero, and I didn't feel very inspired by what I've read here, either. Despite the naysayers I felt like I could make a compelling case nevertheless and went for it, thankfully.

I had a few things going for me, though, which probably helped. I went to an Ivy League school undergrad, and most of my really bad grades were in super crazy hard classes that I took "for fun," like Quantum Mechanics. I had research and clinical experience, and extremely nerdy hobbies, like classical singing and acting in a Shakespeare troupe. I write pretty well, and I'd guess my personal statement stood out a bit. The point of all of this shameless self-congratulation (and keep in mind I haven't actually *gotten in* anywhere yet), is just to say that if you've got a GPA like mine, it isn't impossible to be considered, but you do have to work very hard to come up with an impressive summary of yourself and make every other aspect of your application outstanding.

While some schools do have cut-offs, I think a lot of schools truly don't. I suspect that the reason why the average GPA of matriculates is so high is because more often than not a low GPA does correlate with a lack of ability or at least study skills. But anyone on an admissions committee would be an idiot not to realize that there are plenty of very qualified candidates out there who, for whatever forgivable reason, didn't study their butts off as undergrads. You just have to really, really make them believe you fall into that category. And, whatever you do, when you do sell them your story, don't be defensive and remorseful; if anything, you should behave as though you're proud of your choices because they made you who you are. Maybe you got bad grades because you were extremely devoted to a particular EC? If that's the case, let the passion for that activity show through. Whatever the reason, make sure you've got a confident back story.

Hope that boosts your morale a little! Good luck!

(Update from many years later: in the interest of full disclosure - I never did get off the waitlist at Penn State that year, and it actually wasn't until I retook the MCAT and got a 39 that I was finally accepted to med school. I think it probably took a score that high to overcome the GPA, and even then I was far from a shoo-in; I was only accepted at one school, and the faculty interviewer there who liked and championed me said I was "the hardest sell" of his admissions career. I am, however, about to graduate in the top 25% of my class - despite having been such an weak candidate)

 

[Vihsadas]

if anything, you should behave as though you're proud of your choices because they made you who you are.

Wow. We should get married. That's one of my fundamental core beliefs and the main thesis to my entire application. I really believe it too...If I didn't hit an all time low in terms of success in my undergraduate I never would have become as industrious as I am now. It's BECAUSE of those perceived 'failures' that I am now more driven than ever to always ensure that I am true to my own potential. I literally learned how to succeed because of that experience.

If those experiences are a part of who I am, and I like who I am, then how can I really consider those experiences 'failures'? I can't and I'm thankful for them.

Regrets? No way. For example, there is no way in hell I would have worked as hard as I did for the MCAT if a fire wasn't lit under my ass from my undergraduate experience. Those failures made me into who I am today.

I agree with you 100%. I think that owning up to your grades and framing them as how you become who you are is the best attitude to take.

 

[Lurdes777]

Just to be a little ray of hope...

I have an undergrad GPA of 2.8, and the many post-bac classes I took only averaged out to 3.1. My MCAT is a respectable but not particularly compensatory 33. I'm white and upper middle class and I haven't spent the last few years rescuing sick babies in outer space or anything, either. AND, I just had a wonderful interview at Penn State.

Now, who knows if I'll get in, but they only interview people they're seriously considering (although it's a fairly generous one-third of in-state residents, which I am). I was told by my premed adviser that my chances were next to zero, and I didn't feel very inspired by what I've read here, either. Despite the naysayers I felt like I could make a compelling case nevertheless and went for it, thankfully.

I had a few things going for me, though, which probably helped. I went to an Ivy League school undergrad, and most of my really bad grades were in super crazy hard classes that I took "for fun," like Quantum Mechanics. I had research and clinical experience, and extremely nerdy hobbies, like classical singing and acting in a Shakespeare troupe. I write pretty well, and I'd guess my personal statement stood out a bit. The point of all of this shameless self-congratulation (and keep in mind I haven't actually *gotten in* anywhere yet), is just to say that if you've got a GPA like mine, it isn't impossible to be considered, but you do have to work very hard to come up with an impressive summary of yourself and make every other aspect of your application outstanding.

While some schools do have cut-offs, I think a lot of schools truly don't. I suspect that the reason why the average GPA of matriculates is so high is because more often than not a low GPA does correlate with a lack of ability or at least study skills. But anyone on an admissions committee would be an idiot not to realize that there are plenty of very qualified candidates out there who, for whatever forgivable reason, didn't study their butts off as undergrads. You just have to really, really make them believe you fall into that category. And, whatever you do, when you do sell them your story, don't be defensive and remorseful; if anything, you should behave as though you're proud of your choices because they made you who you are. Maybe you got bad grades because you were extremely devoted to a particular EC? If that's the case, let the passion for that activity show through. Whatever the reason, make sure you've got a confident back story.

Hope that boosts your morale a little! Good luck!

Wow! Thank you so much, you really made my Day (night, actually)! I will save your post, if you don't mind and will read and read at bad times.

I also beleive that my experiences made me a stronger person - coming out of abusive marriage with a baby on hands at 20 years old was not easy, but I did get into school, although finished it with such low GPA.... But I worked my way up and now a proud mother of a 9 year old, have a respectful job and a strong provider for my small family.

As English is not my first language I will probably need to find someone like you to write an application statement for me 🙂

 

[mcclesm]

2.98 in Business Management Undergraduate (Class of 2000)
4.0 in medical prerequisites last year after I decided to apply (2 x 12hr semesters)
MCAT score below average nationally, but above average for the average student at my school.
Accepted into med school no problems

acbyrd, may I ask for more details on your application process? How many schools did you apply to? What one(s) were you accepted to? What was your final GPA and MCAT that got you accepted? What else did you have that made your application strong? Thanks!

 

[Cutie Dibbles]

Lurdes -

So happy I could cheer you up. It does sound like you have a very compelling history - so milk it, baby! : )

Obviously you know this already, but certainly do get a very strong writer to help you with your statement if writing isn't your greatest strength. An outstanding personal statement is one of the few ways to save yourself from being immediately weeded-out on numbers alone. Although I think I've got very strong writing skills, I had my essay reviewed by three strategically chosen friends: 1) a current med student at a very prestigious med school who's been involved a bit in admissions 2) a physics grad student (my essay was largely about the philosophy underlying great scientists, which he's somewhat expert in,) and 3) a professional writer friend with a degree in science journalism. So, as you can see, I was very, very careful to have as close to the perfect personal statement as possible. It's very likely that it's the single thing that kept my file in the "interview" pile.

Anyway, I'll let you know if I get into Penn State (supposed to find out sometime in early March), so we'll know for certain if we can count my experience as an official low GPA "success story." Cross your fingers for me!

And to Vihsadas - hear, hear!

 

[uncmed09]

Man, I hope the people on this website don't lean so hard on statistics when they actually get to the point where they're practicing.

Really, threads like this are a joke...3.0 cutoffs and a bunch of premeds clamoring to dispense knowledge like they're deans of medical schools. I'm also a premed but I'm not going to claim to know all the crap people on here claim they know...really, it's a perfect example of the dumb leading the blind. Just because you're a gunner who likes to rub a 3.8 undergraduate GPA in other people's faces doesn't mean you're an authority. Plus GPA and MCAT doesn't mean a thing if you blow an interview because you're as charismatic as a concrete block (or if you try to "talk shop" with an actual physician...usually a losing battle).

The best advice to be given on this forum is don't listen to 99% of the advice on this forum. Go talk to actual doctors who have been through the process or actual people who have adcom experience. Everyone's application is different, according to most of the pre-meds on this forum, I should be packing my bags for the Caribbean. My GPA is miserable thanks to a case of intractable WPW that was hell to diagnose thanks to a orthodermic pathway (can't wait to see which one of you clowns uses Wikipedia to explain that on this forum and claim genius). However, I'm currently working at two world-class research facilities and being advised to apply to MD/PhD programs (on that note, I plan on getting the PhD first and separately - being interested in a surgical subspecialty, I think the surgical mudpuds lack in one area or the other - but just my opinion). Point is: every case is different (might want to hold on to that lesson and apply it broadly in life).

Other than that, to my fellow pre-meds: rather than spending your days preaching on SDN, go out and have a beer and enjoy life while you still have one (or try and make one if you don't). In my defense, I think this is like my second or third post on this waste of webspace.

Enjoy sending angry replies.

 

[Vihsadas]

Enjoy sending angry replies.

No point. Your anger is enough for one thread. Good luck on your applications/acceptances.

 

[Lokhtar]

Man, I hope the people on this website don't lean so hard on statistics when they actually get to the point where they're practicing.

Really, threads like this are a joke...3.0 cutoffs and a bunch of premeds clamoring to dispense knowledge like they're deans of medical schools. I'm also a premed but I'm not going to claim to know all the crap people on here claim they know...really, it's a perfect example of the dumb leading the blind. Just because you're a gunner who likes to rub a 3.8 undergraduate GPA in other people's faces doesn't mean you're an authority. Plus GPA and MCAT doesn't mean a thing if you blow an interview because you're as charismatic as a concrete block (or if you try to "talk shop" with an actual physician...usually a losing battle).

The best advice to be given on this forum is don't listen to 99% of the advice on this forum. Go talk to actual doctors who have been through the process or actual people who have adcom experience. Everyone's application is different, according to most of the pre-meds on this forum, I should be packing my bags for the Caribbean. My GPA is miserable thanks to a case of intractable WPW that was hell to diagnose thanks to a orthodermic pathway (can't wait to see which one of you clowns uses Wikipedia to explain that on this forum and claim genius). However, I'm currently working at two world-class research facilities and being advised to apply to MD/PhD programs (on that note, I plan on getting the PhD first and separately - being interested in a surgical subspecialty, I think the surgical mudpuds lack in one area or the other - but just my opinion). Point is: every case is different (might want to hold on to that lesson and apply it broadly in life).

Other than that, to my fellow pre-meds: rather than spending your days preaching on SDN, go out and have a beer and enjoy life while you still have one (or try and make one if you don't). In my defense, I think this is like my second or third post on this waste of webspace.

Enjoy sending angry replies.

Doctors are probably the worst source of information about medical school acceptances. The field changes way too often and unless they've kept up to date by being involved in the admission committees, you'd be wasting your time at best, and come away with misleading information at worst.

I've found this site to be a more useful resource than any person - especially the pre-med advisors at the two schools I've been to. They had completely out of date, and often factually incorrect information. If you read SDN enough, you'll have a far better idea of what to do than most.

 

[Nasrudin]

Doctors are probably the worst source of information about medical school acceptances. The field changes way too often and unless they've kept up to date by being involved in the admission committees, you'd be wasting your time at best, and come away with misleading information at worst.

I've found this site to be a more useful resource than any person - especially the pre-med advisors at the two schools I've been to. They had completely out of date, and often factually incorrect information. If you read SDN enough, you'll have a far better idea of what to do than most.

I agree with you in a sense. You can get the skinny on the angles of this and that part of the process from the travelers here, HOWEVER....

If you're trying to run the table against better players you do yourself a disservice by hanging around here to much without having thick skin. Doom and gloom are highly contagious states of mind, of which the premeds on SDN are no short supply. Beating the odds is also a state of mind. Where there are Gioliaths there are Davids but not when there is acquired lack of courage to wield the sling.

 

[Lokhtar]

I agree with you in a sense. You can get the skinny on the angles of this and that part of the process from the travelers here, HOWEVER....

If you're trying to run the table against better players you do yourself a disservice by hanging around here to much without having thick skin. Doom and gloom are highly contagious states of mind, of which the premeds on SDN are no short supply. Beating the odds is also a state of mind. Where there are Gioliaths there are Davids but not when there is acquired lack of courage to wield the sling.

I agree. But you find people across all spectrum. There are cases (TexasTriathelete) where no pre-med adviser in the country would recommend pursuing medicine, but on SDN you can find exceptions as well as the norm. Though I think doom and gloom does prevail, overall if you stick around and look for information, its invaluable. There are no doctors in my family, or many people who went to college (weird for a South Asian), so without SDN, I would have no clue what to do (or worse, would have listened to the pre-med advisers).

 

[puchi]

Ahhh the eternal low gpa thread. I know how you feel, my overall and bcpm gpa is really sub par but I'm not letting it stop me. As long as I show improvement in my grades to show that I can handle tough courses that's what's important. I've had advisors without knowing my history and just looking at my grades tell me that I will never make it. Bah humbug!!! I will show them. SDN is good for information but I will take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Vihsadas]

Ahhh the eternal low gpa thread. I know how you feel, my overall and bcpm gpa is really sub par but I'm not letting it stop me. As long as I show improvement in my grades to show that I can handle tough courses that's what's important. I've had advisors without knowing my history and just looking at my grades tell me that I will never make it. Bah humbug!!! I will show them. SDN is good for information but I will take it with a grain of salt.

That's the right attitude man! Just be willing to go where ever and do whatever you have to to make it. When I decided to go down this path, noone, really, noone believe that I had any chance. Friends, family, relatives...everyone said 'well, we'll support you, but we want you to realize that you should be realistic. You just don't have the grades.'
In reply, 'Well, I'm going to shoot for a 40 on my MCAT...I really think that it's attainable, although unlikely'
(Blank, embarrassed stares all around)

You should have seen their faces when they saw my score report! 😀 Now everyone is all 'rah rah med school!' 😉

Don't let up, and don't let anyone bring you down. But the things is...from here on out, you have to make sure that every single decision you make is taking you closer to your goal. Be willing to do whatever it takes.

 

[netminder]

Just to be a little ray of hope...


I had a few things going for me, though, which probably helped. I went to an Ivy League school undergrad, and most of my really bad grades were in super crazy hard classes that I took "for fun," like Quantum Mechanics. I had research and clinical experience, and extremely nerdy hobbies, like classical singing and acting in a Shakespeare troupe.



Nice post, Cutie Dibbles. Great attitude, too. Keep us posted on how this all goes. Your story is terrific. And rock on with the Ivy undergrad and taking quantum mechanics for fun. Nice. Very nice. Kudos.

 

[netminder]

That's the right attitude man! Just be willing to go where ever and do whatever you have to to make it. When I decided to go down this path, noone, really, noone believe that I had any chance. Friends, family, relatives...everyone said 'well, we'll support you, but we want you to realize that you should be realistic. You just don't have the grades.'
In reply, 'Well, I'm going to shoot for a 40 on my MCAT...I really think that it's attainable, although unlikely'
(Blank, embarrassed stares all around)

You should have seen their faces when they saw my score report! 😀 Now everyone is all 'rah rah med school!' 😉

Don't let up, and don't let anyone bring you down. But the things is...from here on out, you have to make sure that every single decision you make is taking you closer to your goal. Be willing to do whatever it takes.

Nice, Vihsadas. Well said. I'm with you 100%. And nice MCAT scores. Congrats, man. Good luck!

 

[ashbrant]

My UG GPA was a 3.0. MCAT was 27, then 33 three years later. Grad GPA (MPH) was 3.85. I've been accepted to an allo and a osteo pragram for the class of 2012.

To be honest, I doubt I would have been given interviews without the high grad GPA. It probably would have been even better if I took more BCPM courses in grad school, my MPH program wasn't very heavy with BCPM courses.

 

[SDGI]

Stumbled onto this thread looking for something else entirely, but thought I would add my $0.02 if this helps any of you.

I am an old guy by trainee standards ... will be 38 in a couple months. I applied to medical school the first time as I completed undergraduate work in 1992. Back then there were about 4-5 applicants for every spot. I know it dropped down after that, but have no idea what the current situation is. I did this with very average MCATs (which was then given twice a year - I took it during finals week) and an undergrad GPA of 3.22 (to this day I will swear to you that my small liberal arts undergraduate institution had much higher standards than other well known institutions ... but most medical schools see undergrad GPA as equivalent from school to school - I got no bonus points for choosing a school with the academic stars from their respective high schools and where grading on a curve was banned). Everyone sent me secondary apps (to get their fees from me) followed by a curt "no thanks" letter. Zero interviews obtained.

I am the oldest kid of 3 from a family of non-college grads. I had zero mentors. 1992 was the infancy if not pre-natal period for the internet so little information was easily available to me. My pre-med advisor was worthless as he had long since given up on me - he knew the score but had not shared that with me.

I took a job after undergrad, got laid off a year later but found another pretty quickly - I was somewhat of a superstar with that company and paid well (sadly more than I make now in 2008 as a PGY6 - but there I go foreshadowing). But something was missing. I tried volunteering in several healthcare settings (PT, inpatient hospitals, and on and on ... I found that more than ever I wanted to be a doctor).

In 1995 I finally got up the personal will to fail again, took the MCATs (comparitively rocked them that time with a 35) and applied again. Same story - zero interviews. This time I became a bit more resourceful and went and talked at length with two different medical schools admission offices. Both told me the problem was the 3.2 GPA - it was simply beneath the cut.

I recall pointing out at the time that even if I did another complete 4 years of undergrad and got straight As I would still be below their average admitted student of 3.7ish. Knowing head nods was their response.

I had a choice to make, I chose to go for it. Again, I was a superstar at work, so I could get away with about anything. I worked it out with my boss such that I could come in late 3 days a week and took 2 morning classes and a night class, got As in all of them, reapplied and got a couple interviews but no acceptances - I took this as progress though.

The 4th time was the charm. By this time I had gone back, finished a chemistry major and nearly a physics major also with a math minor (my first degree was biology), several writing courses - about 2 full years worth of post-bac undergrad work (I went summer terms also). The next application cycle I was told by several schools that I had already used up my 3 chances. The rest did give me an interview, one accepted me off the waiting list. Exhale .....

So, in 1998, I was then married with a kid on the way, moving to a new city for med school ... pretty much my previous comfortable life being tossed to chase the dream.

Forgive me again if I get back on the GPA soapbox, but once I got to med school, in my class were several Stanford, UCLA, Cal, U Wash, Harvard, Northwestern, ND and on down the line (i.e. non-slouch academic undergrad schools) grads who came in with very high undergrad GPAs (2 of my friends had 4.0s) who truely struggled at times. I, on the otherhand, pretty comfortably finished Med School in the top 10% of my class grade wise, got my first choice in residencies (and got interviews at every place I applied - Duke, Mass Gen, UCLA --- didn't apply to Hopkins) and will finish a GI fellowship this year.

It was a long road, I have done my share of complaining - believe me, but it worked out. I don't know what is was that did it. Perhaps my post-bac p-chem prof writing in my letter of rec that he was not only impressed that a pre-med had the guts to take p-chem but that I was the first student in 4 years to get As all 3 terms. Perhaps they were just tired of seeing my application every year (and I remember telling them in the interview they would see it every year until they let me in).

The moral of the story is don't give up. GPA is an impricise measure of your potential, at best. Find other things to impress them with -- even if you do go back and do what I did, my GPA went up from 3.2 to 3.35 after all of that work. If you can get your foot in the door for an interview you have to sell yourself and get about 10 minutes to do it (don't over do it obviously).

To the original poster on this thread, I agree with most of the above advice - specifically you really really need to figure out what you want. If you put huge effort/expense into getting into med school and then find after 2-3 years that you hate it - that would be a massively expensive mistake as med school is not cheap. For the rest of you (Cutie Dibbles et al,) the key is just getting the door cracked open. I take some sick pleasure in the fact that I had been shut out 3 times, then ended up being one of the best students of a class of 100 at a respectable Med School --- you can do it too.

 

[Vihsadas]

Thanks for giving me hope...Then again, I didn't plan on backing down anytime soon.

Congratulations on your success story. I hope that one day when I'm older and teaching undergraduate/medical school courses I'll be able to share my story to my students.

 

[hollywoodfl]

I just read this last night and so i tried to figure out my lousy GPA today and man is it ever lousy. my original GPA was 2.57, which went up to about a 2.9 after a few random classes I took after the fact to get into a psych MS program (I was a phil major). It would take 200 extra credit hours with straight A's to get up to a 3.6 and about 1200 or so to get to a 3.9 - yikes! My plan is to ace my prereq's and take a few extra classes from the junior college to try to crest the 3.3 mark. i am hoping that my 3.92 in grad school helps, although I know it wont be counted in the overall average. I usually kill it on standardized tests, so I am hoping to do the same with ye olde MCAT. I am also hoping that my family will be able to open a few doors for me (they are professors and admins).

Good luck to everyone on here. I know I will need the same.

 

[hollywoodfl]

By the way my undergrad sends this card out with all the transcripts - there is a Facebook group called "I went to reed and all I got was this crappy GPA." - part of the card reads

"Academic Rigor
The average GPA for all students in 2006–07 was
3.1 on a 4.0 scale. This figure has scarcely changed
in the past 23 years. Reed has experienced
little or no grade inflation. During that period, only six students
have graduated from Reed with perfect 4.0 grade​

averages."

I doubt if this will help, but one can hope.

 

[Vihsadas]

By the way my undergrad sends this card out with all the transcripts - there is a Facebook group called "I went to reed and all I got was this crappy GPA." - part of the card reads

"Academic Rigor​

The average GPA for all students in 2006–07 was
3.1 on a 4.0 scale. This figure has scarcely changed
in the past 23 years.​

Reed has experienced
little or no grade inflation. During that period, only six students
have graduated from Reed with perfect 4.0 grade averages."
​

I doubt if this will help, but one can hope.

Man, I wish that McGill would send one of those out. Our avg is right around 3.0 as well...

 

[hollywoodfl]

Man, I wish that McGill would send one of those out. Our avg is right around 3.0 as well...

well I am still under that average and I dont know if this would even get to the adcoms or just get caught up in the amcas. I am sort of in this place where the application seems so far away, yet i know that the time will fly by in a wink of an eye.

 

[SDGI]

By the way my undergrad sends this card out with all the transcripts - there is a Facebook group called "I went to reed and all I got was this crappy GPA." - part of the card reads

"Academic Rigor
The average GPA for all students in 2006–07 was
3.1 on a 4.0 scale. This figure has scarcely changed
in the past 23 years. Reed has experienced
little or no grade inflation. During that period, only six students
have graduated from Reed with perfect 4.0 grade​

averages."

I doubt if this will help, but one can hope.

I like it, but you are right - probably goes directly into the recycle bin with the envelope the transcript was sent in.

I know Reed well, I went to Willamette. The highest GPA in my graduating class was 3.93 (two people). The cutoff for cum laude was 3.5 of which there were about 50 out of 400 graduates. My GPA left me ranked in the top quartile of my class (OK, exactly on the 25th %ile mark). I think Reed is just as, if not even tougher. I still see WU just a notch below as far as the calibur of student they attract but definately many of the same attitudes regarding grading when I was there existed. As I saw it, the eccentrics went to Reed, the straight and narrows went to Willamette - with notable exceptions both ways. I honestly NEVER discussed a grade with a professor - it was simply taboo. In my post-bac studies, I missed an A by a little over 1% in one class - talked to the professor throwing in words like "med-school" and "ruin my 4.0", he bumped it up. I don't feel good about that - but man was that easy.

Sadly, I was told by UW and OHSU's admissions people (in about 1995 ... things have potentially changed but I doubt it) that for GPA Harvard=Reed=Stanford=Willamette=OSU=Western Oregon=PSU as far as they were concerned because they simply didn't want to have to go through the trouble of weighting schools by academic reputation. While I think I got a whole lot more out of my 4 years at WU than I ever would have out of some huge public school, it is annoying to think that you do well in High School then screw around a little (and who didn't) at a college where standards and expectations are high, when you could have gone elsewhere with lower expectations and saved a lot of hassle. It annoyed me even more when my medical school friends from Harvard and Stanford told tales of rampant grade inflation - luckily by that time it was water under the bridge.

 

[hollywoodfl]

I like it, but you are right - probably goes directly into the recycle bin with the envelope the transcript was sent in.

I think this card or Reed's reputation goes a little farther with doctoral programs, as I know TONS of people that got mediocre grades and went to fantastic programs. It seems that the med school thing is a little more base than that.

I never once looked at my grade while I was a student. You had to go and request them to see them, and people just didn't do it. Tests had no grades, likewise with papers. Now I wish I hadnt spent so much time looking for alternative sources of knowledge while enrolled at a school reknowned for its traditional knowledge.

One thing I can say is that Reed's reputation has done nothing but get better since I went there.

 

[SDGI]

I think this card or Reed's reputation goes a little farther with doctoral programs, as I know TONS of people that got mediocre grades and went to fantastic programs. It seems that the med school thing is a little more base than that.

I would defniately agree with that. My undergrad friends who went to law school or on to masters/PhD programs had little problem and I know many of them were B-/C+ type students. My friends who went to medical school had a tougher time, but not as bad as me (because they frankly had better grades ... more like 3.5). Often those programs are a bit about who you and your professors know ... I think anyone attending an undergrad school in Oregon is a little disadvantaged by the fact that the med school is a seperate entity from everything.

I think we all know that GPA probably says a little about someone's study habits and how seriously they take school. But without the context of the card that Reed provides, GPA is a pretty meaningless number. I can promise you 3.0 at Reed is not equivalent work/time/effort/knowledge/critical thinking, etc. etc. etc. to 3.0 at Portland State (which is sadly where I did my post-bac and had no problem getting a bounty of A grades).

 

[hollywoodfl]

Does it matter what the classes are in to get the overall GPA up?

 

[Vihsadas]

Does it matter what the classes are in to get the overall GPA up?

Technically, "No."

But...chances are that if your grades are low enough such that you need to take classes to bring it up, if an adcom is going to look past your GPA, they are most certainly going to look at the classes you took, and any GPA trends. So I'd say that if you are trying to improve your GPA, then yes, it matters what the classes are.

My advice is to take mostly courses that are 3rd year level or higher, and try and focus on 4th year/ graduate courses. Science courses preferred. The exception to this rule is if you need to take something that is a 'weird' prerequisite or recommended course at some medical school.

For example, right now I'm taking stats, and english both of which are 'second year' classes at McGill. This would normally not be ideal if I was just taking them to raise my GPA, but because they are 'recommended/required' courses for some of the schools I want to apply to, it's OK.

Good luck.

 

[hollywoodfl]

Technically, "No."

But...chances are that if your grades are low enough such that you need to take classes to bring it up, if an adcom is going to look past your GPA, they are most certainly going to look at the classes you took, and any GPA trends. So I'd say that if you are trying to improve your GPA, then yes, it matters what the classes are.

My advice is to take mostly courses that are 3rd year level or higher, and try and focus on 4th year/ graduate courses. Science courses preferred. The exception to this rule is if you need to take something that is a 'weird' prerequisite or recommended course at some medical school.

For example, right now I'm taking stats, and english both of which are 'second year' classes at McGill. This would normally not be ideal if I was just taking them to raise my GPA, but because they are 'recommended/required' courses for some of the schools I want to apply to, it's OK.

Good luck.

Thanks - I guess what I was thinking was that if I could take a few extra classes here and there to boost the numbers, then I wouldnt get caught by basement cut off. assuming I could get my foot in the door, I think I can tell a convincing story about the old grades vs. the new, etc.