Lower Ranked = Easier?

[BlackNDecker]

---

Members don't see this ad.

AOA does mean ****. Do an sdn search about it yourself, or post a question in a forum where people know more than you, i.e. the medical forum.

What is ****? Are you implying ****?

This information would be easily gleaned from class rank, or barring that, grades. Why use AOA when you can use class rank? If the school doesn't rank, why use AOA when you can use Step 1 scores? Both are cited as more important.

Again, you are naive. This is not inflammatory, just fact. You haven't been through the Med school match. Individual grades mean nothing if you can't compare to the class overall...what is commonly provided is a bar graph showing your comparison to the class overall.

Some residency programs use AOA much more heavily...
In the words of a supreme douche,
"boom, data, done:" http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2007.pdf

As you will see on review, class rank is not even listed when gauging successfull residency matching.


wait for it..........





deep breath.....

(not even) important enough for consideration. It is not a factor. It's not even that its considered an unimportant factor among many; it's not a factor, at all.

...see what I did there?


What you will notice, on page 10, is the striking correlation between presence of AOA and mathcing into the most competitive residencies. The same trend is also present for USMLE scores...which is consistent with my statement about the use of these two data points for initially screening applications and potentially offering interview invites.

No, your arguments aren't bulletproof. Don't pop an aneurysm, guy. You probably should have chilled out a bit back when you first got the chance. If you had been more civil in the beginning, maybe people (i.e. me) wouldn't be attacking you now.

No, you just crack me up...previously in a humorous way, now in a pathetic way. How can you continue to cling to faulty logic?

BTW, if I haven't made clear up to this point....you're also an idiot.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Sorry to say guys, but it is clear that one of you clearly has no idea what he is talking about. I'll give you a hint, it's not the resident.

A few points quick points:
Like it or not what school you go to does matter, at least a little.

AOA is huge. There is 1 medical honor society: AOA. There are probably 1000 undergrad honor societies. AOA is a big deal.

 

[BlackNDecker]

Sorry to say guys, but it is clear that one of you clearly has no idea what he is talking about. I'll give you a hint, it's not the resident.

It's nice to see some common sense again in this thread...

A few points quick points:
Like it or not what school you go to does matter, at least a little.

Agreed, and despite the furor over my subsequent comments, this is consistent with my very first post.

Prestige matters but it's not critical in the long run.

 

[nabeel76]

Sorry to say guys, but it is clear that one of you clearly has no idea what he is talking about. I'll give you a hint, it's not the resident.

A few points quick points:
Like it or not what school you go to does matter, at least a little.

AOA is huge. There is 1 medical honor society: AOA. There are probably 1000 undergrad honor societies. AOA is a big deal.

👍 I agree the resident is holding his own.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

You may not like the way he says it, but blackndecker is right. I suggest you read some of the posts by students/residents who have experience with the "elite" programs (blondedocteur's posts about attitudes at Columbia come to mind).

I have heard a neurosurgeon describe his program's screening process: Step 1: look at USMLE score; Step 2: look at 3rd year core clerkship grades; Step 3: look at what school they attend. After that, they make the decision to interview or not.

I have heard a PD (of a non-competitive specialty) talk openly about the fact that he won't interview or rank a DO, and that he looks at school name in the initial screening process.

These things do matter. This debate has been had over and over again on SDN. No, prestige isn't "everything" - but a student from a top school has some advantage in this process.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Now that I'm more in contact with people that wet to less prestigious med schools than me, I think prestige is more of something nice to land a good residency program, but doesn't make you necesairly better prepared. I have working mates from less prestigious schools (though a lot of them were top in their class) who know a lot and never slack and are great to work with.

Go with the school that won't make you miserable, attracts students you can get along with and stll has a good enough educational level to be competitive for the boards.

There is not a single US school that will not prepare you to do well on the boards. Every school in the country has students who score in the 260s.

Prestige of the school follows you around. For instance, whenever we have a visiting professor and they went to JHU or Harvard for med school or residency, people immediately go, oh he must know what he's talking about, whereas the guy from a less recognized area will not get the same immediate respect.

 

[Renova]

I agree with everything BlackNDecker has said in this thread. It's pretty amusing seeing a couple of pre-meds claiming to have a better understanding of the match than a resident.

Like it or not, the relative prestige of your medical school does matter when you're applying for residency...especially if your goal is to match into a relatively competitive program. Take a look at Charting Outcomes in the Match 2007 (the link has been posted earlier in this thread)...you'll find what percentage of successful applicants in each specialty came from top 40 NIH research schools. Students at these schools made up 35.8% of US seniors that year, and are significantly overrepresented in virtually every competitive specialty:

Integrated Plastics - 60.0%
Radiation Oncology - 55.6%
Dermatology - 47.8%
Transitional (internship programs favored by many applicants going into competitive subspecialties) 47.5%
ENT - 43.8%
Orthopaedics - 40.0%

The same is true for prestigious programs in other specialties. Take a look at UCSF's medicine interns...out of 60, I count a grand total of 9 who aren't from NIH top 40 schools. Admittely, these are relatively crude ways of looking at the issue, but they are objective data demonstrating a valid point nonetheless. Does this mean you can't match in ENT if you don't go to Yale? Hardly...but it will make things somewhat harder from you.

 

[Narmerguy]

I don't know why people bother arguing with the majority of the premed population. Give any indication that if you can get into one of the top schools that you're better off in some tangible way and you'll get the same reaction every time: complete denial.

 

[not a dvr user]

Ok, good to know about the name factoring into the initial screen.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't a person top of the class at a mid to upper mid tier with good board scores land an interview? And couldn't a successful interview trump the name of the school that that person came from?

Also, he's not a resident:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=8533674&postcount=44

 

[mmmcdowe]

Ok, good to know about the name factoring into the initial screen.

1) Please correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't a person top of the class at a mid to upper mid tier with good board scores land an interview? And couldn't a successful interview trump the name of the school that that person came from?

2)Also, he's not a resident:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=8533674&postcount=44

1) Of course they could. Name is a factor, but not the most important one.
2) That's called modesty

 

[45408]

If you're a C student at Harvard Med you will not be an A student at State Med School.

Agreed. The top students in my school have outstanding board scores ( >260) and would do well anywhere.

 

[45408]

Yeah, because if you're getting a complicated surgery of some kind, where they went to medical school is far more important than say, how many of said procedure they've performed, or what their outcomes are like.

Agreed. Your most important question should be "how many of these have you done?" On my surgery sub-I, people asked the surgeon how often he did this procedure (answer: about 700-800), but I didn't hear anyone ask him where he went to med school.

 

[Narmerguy]

Agreed. The top students in my school have outstanding board scores ( >260) and would do well anywhere.

That may be so but that isn't really what the poster you were quoting was saying. He was stating that a person that got a C at harvard wouldn't necessarily get an A at a state school, not necessarily that they'd be the top student.

I think a lot of us are underestimating how strong the matriculants of top scohols like harvard are. Have you seen their applications? To get in they come from the top of all their respective backgrounds and are all then thrown together. I have no doubt that the vast majority of them, regardless of their grades, would be capable of getting A's at other universities.

I don't go to an Ivy or anything like that but I'm not so sensitive/insecure that I can't admit when some schools are comprised of truly unique students.

 

[Narmerguy]

Agreed. Your most important question should be "how many of these have you done?" On my surgery sub-I, people asked the surgeon how often he did this procedure (answer: about 700-800), but I didn't hear anyone ask him where he went to med school.

Again, not contending that they automatically make better doctors. Just that they have the ability to excel at most of the schools around.

 

[BlackNDecker]

2) That's called modesty

Nicely put.

 

[BlackNDecker]

I don't go to an Ivy or anything like that but I'm not so sensitive/insecure that I can't admit when some schools are comprised of truly unique students.

Nice succinct summary of the past two pages of argument. Many Pre-Med and Med Students have the biggest chip on their shoulders. They're used to being top 5% in their respective institutions and some will do anything to maintain that dominance. Including sucking-up, cheating, and even more riduculous examples like majoring in Communications for Pre-Med😕 and attending a "weak" med school (whatever that means).

I didn't attend an Ivy institution (though I did apply) at any point in my training, however, I have nothing but respect for the amount of hard work, productivity, and delayed gratification involved to gain acceptance. Sure, some "grandfather in" or get by on natural ability...but that shouldn't discredit the majority of hard workers.

 

[BlackNDecker]

Ok, good to know about the name factoring into the initial screen.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but couldn't a person top of the class at a mid to upper mid tier with good board scores land an interview? And couldn't a successful interview trump the name of the school that that person came from?

I was wondering if you'd come back after licking your wounds....

Of course. But if you had taken the time to actually read the posts, you would have realized this was never in question.

Also, he's not a resident:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=8533674&postcount=44

Unfortunately, you're still an idiot.

 

[mmmcdowe]

I call that the fall back method. Having been totally beaten down in an argument with no support from the community, posters typically lash out at the victor and try to discredit them through things like their status in the medical world or their grammar/spelling in an attempt to save face.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

46% do not consider where you come from to be important enough for consideration. It is not a factor.

yes, but what residencies constitute these 46%? just a thought...

 

[Jolie South]

Just a friendly reminder to keep it civil. Disagreement of opinions is welcome, but please keep personal insults out of it.

 

[BlackNDecker]

I call that the fall back method. Having been totally beaten down in an argument with no support from the community, posters typically lash out at the victor and try to discredit them through things like their status in the medical world or their grammar/spelling in an attempt to save face.

If only his parents had used the pull out method, this argument might never have occurred...

You get one point for the assist😉

 

[BlackNDecker]

Just saw the warning...indeed😳

 

[jhamaican]

I am not quite sure why everyone is being so hostile toward BlacknDecker, it seems like a reasonable discussion about something that directly applies to many people who frequent this forum.

 

[mipp0]

Thank you BlackNDecker for coming here and sharing your insights.

Your avatar is lame, but your logic is awesome!

👍

 

[whoisthedrizzle]

The material is the same everywhere from the lowest ranked school to Wash U. You have to learn all of it. It is ****ing hard.

You're not competing against anyone except yourself. You're learning as much as possible so you have as much info as possible to draw on in the clinical years. I can't comment on the competitiveness there.

 

[whoisthedrizzle]

I agree with everything BlackNDecker has said in this thread. It's pretty amusing seeing a couple of pre-meds claiming to have a better understanding of the match than a resident.

Like it or not, the relative prestige of your medical school does matter when you're applying for residency...especially if your goal is to match into a relatively competitive program. Take a look at Charting Outcomes in the Match 2007 (the link has been posted earlier in this thread)...you'll find what percentage of successful applicants in each specialty came from top 40 NIH research schools. Students at these schools made up 35.8% of US seniors that year, and are significantly overrepresented in virtually every competitive specialty:

Integrated Plastics - 60.0%
Radiation Oncology - 55.6%
Dermatology - 47.8%
Transitional (internship programs favored by many applicants going into competitive subspecialties) 47.5%
ENT - 43.8%
Orthopaedics - 40.0%

The same is true for prestigious programs in other specialties. Take a look at UCSF's medicine interns...out of 60, I count a grand total of 9 who aren't from NIH top 40 schools. Admittely, these are relatively crude ways of looking at the issue, but they are objective data demonstrating a valid point nonetheless. Does this mean you can't match in ENT if you don't go to Yale? Hardly...but it will make things somewhat harder from you.

These schools selected good test takers that will have higher step ones than the lower ranked schools. Prestige matters, but not to the extent you suggest.

 

[BlackNDecker]

Your avatar is lame...

👍

Really, I always thought it was bad*****...the two things I love most, Jesus and guns. Man, I really am a southern boy.

 

[Renova]

These schools selected good test takers that will have higher step ones than the lower ranked schools. Prestige matters, but not to the extent you suggest.

So UCSF's medicine program couldn't find more than 9 people from lower tier schools with competitive board scores for their intern class?

You'll see soon enough. As someone currently applying for a spot in one of the uber competitive specialties named above, I've actually met with PDs at some of the more prestigious programs...and some of them have actually told me that while my board score, grades, research, etc are all comprable to those of the people they typically interview/accept, I would most likely not get an interview because they only consider applicants from top tier medical schools.

That's just life...get over it.

 

[whoisthedrizzle]

So UCSF's medicine program couldn't find more than 9 people from lower tier schools with competitive board scores for their intern class?

You'll see soon enough. As someone currently applying for a spot in one of the uber competitive specialties named above, I've actually met with PDs at some of the more prestigious programs...and some of them have actually told me that while my board score, grades, research, etc are all comprable to those of the people they typically interview/accept, I would most likely not get an interview because they only consider applicants from top tier medical schools.

That's just life...get over it.

At the select few programs you're talking about, everyone has all their **** in line, so school reputation plays more of a factor. It's similar to getting into a top ten med school. Ivies and the like are over-represented there, just like top tier schools are over-represented in top residencies. Connections and big name research also play a big factor in these decisions.