Lowest/worst carribean schools? (basically pure scam schools)

[druggeek]

Just curious, anyone know of any pure scam schools? or schools ranked extremely low/at the bottom, or basically the few worst? Just out of curiousity.

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[Johnson282]

Any accredited school can work with the proper motivation/dedication/intelligence, so they can't be "scams" persay.

 

[druggeek]

Any accredited school can work with the proper motivation/dedication/intelligence, so they can't be "scams" persay.

That's just theoritical though.

 

[jf1987]

q

 

[dragonfly99]

Windsor has a bad rep...
I basically wouldn't recommend doing to any of the ones that cater to US/Canadians other than the top 3-5...and I would recommend exhausting all options in your home country for 1-2 years first (for the vast majority of people).

 

[druggeek]

Windsor has a bad rep...
I basically wouldn't recommend doing to any of the ones that cater to US/Canadians other than the top 3-5...and I would recommend exhausting all options in your home country for 1-2 years first (for the vast majority of people).

ahaha how about dont go there period.

 

[Johnson282]

That's just theoritical though.

It is. And it isn't.

There are residents in the USA and Canada from some of the worst med schools in the Caribbean. IAU, Sint. Eustatius, Spartan, Windsor, etc, all have residents or practicing physicians that were graduates of their respective school. To say they are a scam wouldn't be correct.

Some schools offer better training, education or placements, such as the top 5. But the others can still work. The main reason the lower tier schools have such low residency placements is due to the calibre of people they accept. Think of it this way, stateside/canadian med schools accept the best students. The ones with the proven track record. They have the highest probabilities of succeeding on the steps. Now we come to the big 5, they are more lenient than stateside med schools, but still require a certain calibre of student. Therefore, they will have more students doing well on the steps than the lower tier schools, but less than stateside (probability speaking). And lastly, the med schools who will accept anyone. If you're coming out of UG with a 2.0 GPA and 20/no MCAT, odds are youre not going to do well on the steps. So it makes sense that less of their students are matching.

Again, I am just using simple probabilities. On average, **** med schools have less students matching than the top 5, but you have to look at the students they are accepting as well. A good student going to a **** med school can still match, if they are willing to put the time and effort into it for 40 months of their life.

If I am wrong, anyone please correct me. I have only recently been accepted to the Caribbean, but have been around here and valuemd for a couple years and have done more than the average research (or so I deem).

Regards

 

[druggeek]

It is. And it isn't.

There are residents in the USA and Canada from some of the worst med schools in the Caribbean. IAU, Sint. Eustatius, Spartan, Windsor, etc, all have residents or practicing physicians that were graduates of their respective school. To say they are a scam wouldn't be correct.

Some schools offer better training, education or placements, such as the top 5. But the others can still work. The main reason the lower tier schools have such low residency placements is due to the calibre of people they accept. Think of it this way, stateside/canadian med schools accept the best students. The ones with the proven track record. They have the highest probabilities of succeeding on the steps. Now we come to the big 5, they are more lenient than stateside med schools, but still require a certain calibre of student. Therefore, they will have more students doing well on the steps than the lower tier schools, but less than stateside (probability speaking). And lastly, the med schools who will accept anyone. If you're coming out of UG with a 2.0 GPA and 20/no MCAT, odds are youre not going to do well on the steps. So it makes sense that less of their students are matching.

Again, I am just using simple probabilities. On average, **** med schools have less students matching than the top 5, but you have to look at the students they are accepting as well. A good student going to a **** med school can still match, if they are willing to put the time and effort into it for 40 months of their life.

If I am wrong, anyone please correct me. I have only recently been accepted to the Caribbean, but have been around here and valuemd for a couple years and have done more than the average research (or so I deem).

Regards

Do you have any examples on those residents matching in canada in the past few years (dont just believe what you read without very solid proof, especially if the words could have came from someone from one of those schools)? Things have gotten extremely harder in the past few years and continue to get much much harder every single year. I'm sure getting a rural psych residency in the worst location in the US is do-able if you're from a crappy school and have passed the steps/done okay... but even that's beginnin to change with the growing number of american grads beginning to take less deriable spots.. thus leaving the worst available to the TOP IMGs.

 

[Johnson282]

Do you have any examples on those residents matching in canada in the past few years (dont just believe what you read without very solid proof, especially if the words could have came from someone from one of those schools)? Things have gotten extremely harder in the past few years and continue to get much much harder every single year. I'm sure getting a rural psych residency in the worst location in the US is do-able if you're from a crappy school and have passed the steps/done okay... but even that's beginnin to change with the growing number of american grads beginning to take less deriable spots.. thus leaving the worst available to the TOP IMGs.

I never believe a single word that any medical school website, recruiter, administrator or advocator says. I talk directly to the graduates who are practicing. I have a list of 10-15 residents that I email quite frequently for advice or information, all from various schools from SGU to IAU. I've even met up with two current residents for drinks and talked with them in person.

I would contact your medical board/council directly to get your facts and statistics, directly from the primary source. A lot of people on these forums read someone elses post and take it for truth, then start reposting it, etc etc. A lot of misinformation gets passed along on here, although in general this site is pretty solid.

Now I can't speak to where you are from, but being Canadian, for fellow Canadians, here is a good PDF file to read if you want to attend the Caribbean, and I'm sure US states have similar processes to get this information.
http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2010_CSA_Report/CaRMS_2010_CSA_Report.pdf

Anyways, like I said, I start in the Caribbean in Sept., so I haven't been there yet and may not know as much as people who are currently down there. But I have definitely done my research and feel I am as prepared as I can be before starting.

Regards

 

[druggeek]

I never believe a single word that any medical school website, recruiter, administrator or advocator says. I talk directly to the graduates who are practicing. I have a list of 10-15 residents that I email quite frequently for advice or information, all from various schools from SGU to IAU. I've even met up with two current residents for drinks and talked with them in person.

I would contact your medical board/council directly to get your facts and statistics, directly from the primary source. A lot of people on these forums read someone elses post and take it for truth, then start reposting it, etc etc. A lot of misinformation gets passed along on here, although in general this site is pretty solid.

Now I can't speak to where you are from, but being Canadian, for fellow Canadians, here is a good PDF file to read if you want to attend the Caribbean, and I'm sure US states have similar processes to get this information.
http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2010_CSA_Report/CaRMS_2010_CSA_Report.pdf

Anyways, like I said, I start in the Caribbean in Sept., so I haven't been there yet and may not know as much as people who are currently down there. But I have definitely done my research and feel I am as prepared as I can be before starting.

Regards

Statistics show lower and lower match rates for IMGs in Canada. My reccomendation to you is (for future notice) to get heavily focused on US residencies. Once you finish, as long as you've passed steps 1/2 with decent scores... you shouldnt have a problem landing a primary care residency if you apply to tons and tons of programs.
Dont count on beating out 90% of other IMGs for a family medicine spot somewhere in canada...

 

[Johnson282]

Statistics show lower and lower match rates for IMGs in Canada. My reccomendation to you is (for future notice) to get heavily focused on US residencies. Once you finish, as long as you've passed steps 1/2 with decent scores... you shouldnt have a problem landing a primary care residency if you apply to tons and tons of programs.
Dont count on beating out 90% of other IMGs for a family medicine spot somewhere in canada...

You're one of those people I mentioned whom are passing on misleading information
This is taken right from the CaRMs website for match 2009:
http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2009R1_MatchResults/

Match rate of Caribbean/C. American grads = 33%
Match rate of European grads = 33%
Match rate of Oceania/Pacific Island grads = 55%
Match rate of African grads = 16%
Match rate of Asian grads = 17%
Match rate of Middle Eastern grads = 16%
Match rate of South American grads = 42%
Match rate of North American grads* = 29%
*(Non-Canadian)

The match rate for Caribbean grads was higher in 2009 than in 2008, and 2008 was higher than in 2007. So I see an opposite trend that you are suggesting.

Even still, 33% is pretty low, I'll give you that. So if you aren't 100% sure you'll be top 1 of 3, you'd have better chances of matching in the US. Also, a lot of provinces in Canada require a terms of service, meaning you have to do 24 months up in bum****nowhere in order to match.

EDIT:
Furthermore, I found the match percentage for 2011 for IMG's as a whole, not seperated into region.
http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2011R1_MatchResults/5_Active IMG Application Counts by Discipline_en.pdf
A total 1565 of IMGs applied in the First Iteration.
671 / 43% Matched

So that shows again an upward trend matching in a residency in Canada as an IMG.

 

[druggeek]

You're one of those people I mentioned whom are passing on misleading information
This is taken right from the CaRMs website for match 2009:
http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2009R1_MatchResults/

Match rate of Caribbean/C. American grads = 33%
Match rate of European grads = 33%
Match rate of Oceania/Pacific Island grads = 55%
Match rate of African grads = 16%
Match rate of Asian grads = 17%
Match rate of Middle Eastern grads = 16%
Match rate of South American grads = 42%
Match rate of North American grads* = 29%
*(Non-Canadian)

The match rate for Caribbean grads was higher in 2009 than in 2008, and 2008 was higher than in 2007. So I see an opposite trend that you are suggesting.

Even still, 33% is pretty low, I'll give you that. So if you aren't 100% sure you'll be top 1 of 3, you'd have better chances of matching in the US. Also, a lot of provinces in Canada require a terms of service, meaning you have to do 24 months up in bum****nowhere in order to match.

EDIT:
Furthermore, I found the match percentage for 2011 for IMG's as a whole, not seperated into region.
http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2011R1_MatchResults/5_Active IMG Application Counts by Discipline_en.pdf
A total 1565 of IMGs applied in the First Iteration.
671 / 43% Matched

So that shows again an upward trend matching in a residency in Canada as an IMG.

Your first link does not work.

Your second link does not show match rates.... it shows the number of applicants only.

Have a look at this:

http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2010R1_MatchResults/IMGs by Region_1stand2nd Iteration_en.pdf

It looks like the match rates are much much lower than what you thought.

And from what I remember, your terms of service will be more like 5 years.

I also dont know what school you're attending, but a lot of people matching from the carribean often go to the top 1-2 schools... if not top 4 at least. So for the purpose of this thread, all schools are not equal. If a PD doesnt know the name of your school, you're in trouble.
As well, lets not forget that the number of IMGs is going to peak in 2013, how can more IMGs match if the number of IMG spots stays the same while the number of applicants goes up ?? That makes no sense.

 

[Johnson282]

Your first link does not work.

Your second link does not show match rates.... it shows the number of applicants only.

Have a look at this:

http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2010R1_MatchResults/IMGs%20by%20Region_1stand2nd%20Iteration_en.pdf

It looks like the match rates are much much lower than what you thought.

And from what I remember, your terms of service will be more like 5 years.

I also dont know what school you're attending, but a lot of people matching from the carribean often go to the top 1-2 schools... if not top 4 at least. So for the purpose of this thread, all schools are not equal. If a PD doesnt know the name of your school, you're in trouble.
As well, lets not forget that the number of IMGs is going to peak in 2013, how can more IMGs match if the number of IMG spots stays the same while the number of applicants goes up ?? That makes no sense.

I don't know, the first link is working for me? Here is another link though that supports it. Remember, I am only looking at Caribbean grads, not the masses of Asian/Middle-Eastern grads:
http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2009R1_MatchResults/42MatchReport_E.pdf

As with the second link, you are right, that is my fault. In my rush to provide more info I missed that, my mistake.

Even the link you linked me gives a 1/3 chance for Caribbean students, so between 2009 and 2010, it didn't statistically change.

As for the terms of service, here is a link that shows what provinces require it:
http://www.carms.ca/eng/r1_eligibility_prov_e.shtml
I can't speak to the other provinces, but I have e-mailed the Program Officer at the Human Resources Branch for Ontario, and they said two years of Return of Service is required.

As for match rates being lower than what I thought, I've always stated top 1/3, which is still what I am seeing from this.

With regards to the PD not knowing what school you are from, do they actually look at the school, or just your scores? From what I have heard, a Caribbean grad is a Caribbean grad is a Caribbean grad. If someone went to UMHS or Windsor and got a higher score than someone who went to SGU, would they take the SGU grad first? I'm asking because I honestly do not know, just what I have heard.

 

[druggeek]

I don't know, the first link is working for me? Here is another link though that supports it. Remember, I am only looking at Caribbean grads, not the masses of Asian/Middle-Eastern grads:
http://www.carms.ca/pdfs/2009R1_MatchResults/42MatchReport_E.pdf

As with the second link, you are right, that is my fault. In my rush to provide more info I missed that, my mistake.

Even the link you linked me gives a 1/3 chance for Caribbean students, so between 2009 and 2010, it didn't statistically change.

As for the terms of service, here is a link that shows what provinces require it:
http://www.carms.ca/eng/r1_eligibility_prov_e.shtml
I can't speak to the other provinces, but I have e-mailed the Program Officer at the Human Resources Branch for Ontario, and they said two years of Return of Service is required.

As for match rates being lower than what I thought, I've always stated top 1/3, which is still what I am seeing from this.

With regards to the PD not knowing what school you are from, do they actually look at the school, or just your scores? From what I have heard, a Caribbean grad is a Caribbean grad is a Caribbean grad. If someone went to UMHS or Windsor and got a higher score than someone who went to SGU, would they take the SGU grad first? I'm asking because I honestly do not know, just what I have heard.

You have to consider the fact that you're still competing with IMGs from other places to get that spot... so do factor in overall match rates because PDs don't have spots reserved for carribean people...

It is a poor choice (sorry I have to be blunt) to use 2009 statistics to try and predict 2017 match rates. IMGs will peak in numbers in 2013 and will remain at a peak, perhaps even going higher? You must remember that a higher population in Canada = more pre meds = more failed pre meds = more IMGs. It's basic common sense and math. The number of IMG spots however will not change and with new investigations being done on saturation in different medical fields... you could see a change for the negative in the IMG department (lower spots). You have 100 people competing now for 30 spots, what happens in 5 years when it's 200 people competing for 30 spots?


As for your question on PDs, it is well known that they have strong bias towards your undergrad institution's prestige. Prestige and personal bias is even present between applicants who are from top 10 schools in the US! Canadian programs though have less bias because of the fairly even level of competition for med school spots... but I still cant see a northern med school grad getting a neurosurgery spot over a uoft grad ... at uoft.

So yes there will be bias, and when there's 5 spots and 15 carribean grads... you can sure as hell bet the SGU grads are getting first dibs on those 5 spots. (assuming everything else is fairly the same)

 

[Blitz2006]

You have to consider the fact that you're still competing with IMGs from other places to get that spot... so do factor in overall match rates because PDs don't have spots reserved for carribean people...

It is a poor choice (sorry I have to be blunt) to use 2009 statistics to try and predict 2017 match rates. IMGs will peak in numbers in 2013 and will remain at a peak, perhaps even going higher? You must remember that a higher population in Canada = more pre meds = more failed pre meds = more IMGs. It's basic common sense and math. The number of IMG spots however will not change and with new investigations being done on saturation in different medical fields... you could see a change for the negative in the IMG department (lower spots). You have 100 people competing now for 30 spots, what happens in 5 years when it's 200 people competing for 30 spots?


As for your question on PDs, it is well known that they have strong bias towards your undergrad institution's prestige. Prestige and personal bias is even present between applicants who are from top 10 schools in the US! Canadian programs though have less bias because of the fairly even level of competition for med school spots... but I still cant see a northern med school grad getting a neurosurgery spot over a uoft grad ... at uoft.

So yes there will be bias, and when there's 5 spots and 15 carribean grads... you can sure as hell bet the SGU grads are getting first dibs on those 5 spots. (assuming everything else is fairly the same)

I agree 100% with the prestige being a big deal. I know family friends who matched a couple years back into U of T obs/gyn and Ortho (couples match) from the UK.

Damn impressive eh? Couples match..obs/gyn+ortho in Toronto. Even more impressive is that the guy got ortho in Toronto WITHOUT doing any electives in Canada.

The catch?

Cambridge grads.

I can guarantee you that if they went to any other UK med school, let alone a carribean school, this situation would not have happened...