LPC vs LCSW?

Discussion in 'Mental Health and Social Welfare' started by golightning, Feb 11, 2017.

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  1. golightning

    golightning

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    I know that's such a vague question, but I was wondering, maybe from some of you guys in either field, which would you consider the "better"? I am currently a psych undergrad and love learning about biology, sociology, and psychology. Heck, my first semester of college I had thought I wanted to be an engineer, which I learned quickly I hated, but if it honestly were not for sociology and psychology, I would've just thought college in general wasn't for me. I want to help people, but 3 and a half years in, with probably around 3 more to go, I want to make an acceptable amount of money that I could live with. Also, can an LCSW really diagnose mental disorders? I don't mean to sound like an idiot, but I honestly never knew that was part of their job duty until reading that from a little forum about it. Thanks everyone :)
     
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  3. Salvador

    Salvador 2+ Year Member

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    Hey there,

    I don't work in the field yet (Currently at USC for their MSW Program), but I have heard that the LCSW is much more flexible than then LPC. Do some more research and you will find this to be true.
     
  4. golightning

    golightning

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    I legitimately was on USC's website for their MSW program as you posted (that tuition scares me though lol), but I have been reading like crazy about it lately. I'm in N.C., but there are a ton more jobs on job boards for LCSW. I just honestly never saw Social Workers in this sense, otherwise I would've gotten a BSW so that I could fly through a MSW with advanced standing credentials. Thanks for the reply!
     
  5. Salvador

    Salvador 2+ Year Member

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    The GRAD Plus student loan is where it's at (It's very convenient, or if you are a veteran, the post 9/11 Gi Bill/ Voc Rehab would cover tuition+supplies).
    USC also offers their MSW program online thru their Virtual Academic Campus (VAC). They offer it full time (4 semesters), part- time (6 semesters), and extended part-time (8 semesters).

    Being in the part-time track myself (currently working full time as a Substance Use Disorder (SUD) Counselor and Auditor), it gives me more time to fully understand and grasp the material.
    My undergrad was B.S., Psychology, so it gave me a good foundation for Social Work.
     
  6. golightning

    golightning

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    I'll definitely have to look this up. I've done a couple semesters fully online before (I have an IBD), so I wouldn't even be against doing it online. Thanks!
     
  7. aftermidnight

    aftermidnight 2+ Year Member

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    Social work is a very broad field, and your misconception about scope of practice for social work is a common one. Clinical Social Workers (generally means a master's degree + at least 2 years of clinical supervision) can diagnose mental illness and do psychotherapy. Anyone that would suggest otherwise is simply wrong. You will frequently find LPCs, LCSWs, and LMFTs doing the same type of work. I would recommend finding the program that fits best for you overall, rather than based on any perceived notion of the title. You will actually find that social workers (LCSW) are preferred over counselors (LPC) in terms of hiring and insurance. (This preference has a lot to do with historical issues and politics than being able to determine the quality of someone based on the letters next to their name. Social work as a separate and title-protected profession has existed longer than counseling.) This is a good overview of some of the different types of practice social workers are involved in: https://www.bls.gov/ooh/community-and-social-service/social-workers.htm#tab-2
     
  8. golightning

    golightning

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    I definitely didn't understand the depth of Social Work until recently. Now in hindsight, I probably would have gone the BSW route just so I'd be eligible for the advanced standing MSW. C'est la vie though. Thanks!
     
  9. CyouRAnyway

    CyouRAnyway

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    If you want to strictly counsel individuals, LPC is the path to go. Better trained in actual counseling.
     
  10. golightning

    golightning

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    Thanks for the reply! I am still having a difficult time deciding. I have a friend completing a PsyD at FIT and that sort of catches my attention, except for the price, and I think the price is what's scaring the crap out of me lately. I know 4 years ago a $40k salary would've been actually decent to me, but it just seems so mediocre when I think of how much time this takes (although I am hoping I'm not sounding greedy because I am simple, but just want to live comfortably.) Then again, if I'd go to med school, being a psychiatrist sure has it's perks, but it has a huge price tag as well and in my area (Charlotte, N.C.) the med schools closest are super competitive. Anyways, I think I'm just going to have to start trying to shadow all of these professions. Thanks again though :)
     
  11. Psych NP Guy

    Psych NP Guy 2+ Year Member

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    As an unbiased individual, I would suggest LMSW - LCSW. With either credential you'll likely have to pay someone to "supervise" you, but the SW's have a better political backing with greater transferability. Also, you can presently only provide military service and bill Medicare as a LCSW. Look at your future pay structure and service location.

    Again, as an unbiased guy, what I have observed is that I've witnessed more LCSWs become overly enmeshed with patients in their quest to provide advocacy and empowerment versus LPCS. As happenstance, I've seen SWs rise higher in the hierarchy, but that may be due to their global indoctrination versus the individual and family indoctrination of LPCs.

    If all you want to do is be a therapist, LCSW is probably the most versatile. In the end you'll be providing psychotherapy with either route. The credential that can do the most for YOU is likely the better for you.
     
  12. wtfook

    wtfook

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    I would suggest researching the area that you wish to get your licensure in. Depending on where you are, the LPC vs LCSW distinction may be more prominent or less important. For example, LPC licensure is very new in California and it is very difficult to get licensure there. They require more classes than other states and the entry level pay before licensure is significantly less. However, in the state of Pennsylvania (where I am currently working on LPC licensure), LPC and LCSW eligible and licensed individuals are hired for the same jobs. Most places consider them equal with no favoritism for one of the other. At least within the counseling profession. One individual stated above that LPCs can't bill Medicare, which I don't think is a broadly true statement. In Pennsylvania, you can bill medicare for your services (because I do as a therapist at a nation wide agency) as an LPC or LCSW. This may not be true in every state.

    So essentially, consider where you want to be licensed and what the job market is for those licensed professions. If you're in Cali, I'd recommend getting the LCSW. If you're in the north east, it's a lot less differentiated and I'd say go with the program that will give you the best bang for your buck.Consider whether the program will be within your budget, if the program has a good reputation, and if it will provide the training and placements necessary for what you want to do in the future. You'll find that clinically oriented MSW trainees share the same internship and practicum placements as master's level counseling interns so really it's about the fit of the program. Location is important because both professions license by state. That means if you leave the state you're licensed in, you have to go through paperwork stuff to transfer it over and sometimes the state will require additional classes or supervised hours.

    Finally, social work programs have a different philosophy from counseling programs because social work is a different profession. Although clinical social workers can practice psychotherapy, many social work programs from which they were trained are coming from a different conceptualization of the field than counseling. Check out the program philosophies and curriculums and decide which you connect with more. There is no better or worse profession, only one that you think aligns best with your values and how you picture your own work in the future.
     
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  13. DreamyPursuit88

    DreamyPursuit88

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    Graduated with my B.A. in Psych over five years ago and have mostly worked in the mental health or related fields since. Currently in my third semester of an MSW program and am withdrawing to begin a Clinical Mental Health Counseling (track to become LPC) program in a few months. I've also worked as an MSW intern for the last 6-7 months at an outpatient mental health counseling agency. Here are the most relevant factors that I found in making my decision:
    -IMO the curricula you will find in masters-level counseling programs are far superior for future psychotherapists. For example, I will learn a plethora of counseling theories, psychological development and psychopathology, receive ample practice in mock therapy sessions, and be required to attend numerous therapy sessions, analyze my own personal growth alongside my future career, and participate in the MMPI-2 inventory all before beginning my CMHC practicum. Only a few of these things are covered and with little depth in the MSW program.
    -Unlike counseling (for the most part), social work as a field overall is very political and leans very much to the left. You will be taught many theories in this ideological perspective (e.g. Marx is a common theme and highly revered) with almost no room for dissenting thought - this is what finally pushed me out of the program. I have talked with numerous LSWs and LCSWs personally, and done enough research on my own to confirm this is the case nationwide almost ubiquitously. All NASW-accredited MSW programs require social policy classes, which typically require students to participate in political activism. I recommend browsing the NASW website extensively - their press releases, political affiliations and lobbying efforts, and code of conduct required of all social workers speak for themselves in the aforementioned regard. As a student intern you will be required to become a member and purchase liability insurance through them. I'm not personally interested in becoming a social justice warrior, only helping people gain the tools to live better lives. Sure, an LCSW has negligibly more prestige (for now) than an LPC; but that's simply based on seniority rather than superiority. LPCs are quickly gaining ground legislatively.
    -If you have any interest in pursuing your doctorate later on to become a psychologist (e.g. Psy.D, Ph.D, Ed.D, etc.) you have a better chance of getting credit transfers from a master's in counseling or psychology than a master's in social work.

    With all that said I am speaking of the education requirements, not the students. I have the utmost respect for ALL competent mental health professionals, and have great respect for the many mental health professionals with whom I've worked and received mentoring from, regardless of the letters next to their names.
     
  14. wtfook

    wtfook

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    I definitely agree that if your end goal is to become a practicing therapist then the LPC is more targeted and will include the classes necessary for master's level practice. A person above stated that the MSW is more flexible and that's true. If you're unsure about where you want to take your social services career, that might be a better choice. But if you know you'd like to practice therapy (with no interest in research), the LPC is more specific and will provide you with more of the academic background. Although MSW and LPC practitioners do the same practicums and internships if they're both interested in psychotherapy work.

    I'm not sure I agree with you about the SJW aspect though. Social justice is a huge component of the counseling field. Like. Massive. I'm in my second round of PhD interviews and graduated from an LPC master's program and all the counseling psych and counseling master's programs I interviewed at emphasized the social justice aspect and multicultural perspective of the counseling field. All were interested in my own thoughts on these topics. I suppose the level to a which an LPC program emphasizes how involved you should be in social advocacy varies. MSW programs may be more intense since the traditional field of social work is to connect underserved clients with resources in their community, which in and of itself can be a form of social justice work. But I can't imagine you'd not encounter a lot of dialogue on diversity and social justice at any LPC program.

    But I'm curious, has that not been your experience at the LPC program you'll be starting soon?
     
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  15. DreamyPursuit88

    DreamyPursuit88

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    This is a good point and it is important to be competent in working with people from all backgrounds and walks of life since our client base will be just that in most settings. My understanding is that counseling programs typically tackle that from a respectful, practical perspective whereas social work makes it an ideology. The concept of individual responsibility is all but erased and instead the environment and culture is blamed for nearly all client problems. I do not think that is a good premise to work from, particularly given the plethora of psychological research showing how greatly personality and psychological development are inherited versus previously thought.
     
  16. wtfook

    wtfook

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    I'm wondering if that was specific to your program? You would probably know better than me since you have actually attended an MSW program and I haven't. I have talked with MSW interns who shared my same placements, but I never got that impression. Of course we don't necessarily make a habit of talking about our programs philosophies with one another in our leisure time. ;) I only know that social justice is a part of both professions. As for the personal responsibility thing, I have always been taught that it's a balance. For some individuals it is very much environmental. For others it might be more personal. How you decide to approach that person therapeutically hinges a lot on what the needs of that client are and what kind of theoretical orientation you're operating from.
     
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  17. Goobernut

    Goobernut LMSW 5+ Year Member

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    Here's another opinion in the mix. I feel like I'm a broken record, but don't believe anyone who tells you all master's programs of a type are "the same." Master's programs are HIGHLY VARIABLE and you cannot assume that any of ONE particular degree is more competent than another. I chose MSW because of licensing issues in the state I wanted to practice in. This is so important to take into consideration.

    I feel like I got a good counseling foundation -- not spectacular for sure. But I've met MSWs from even my own program who had different professors and graduated in different years that I have doubts about. I've met LPC's who came from for profit colleges and local home grown private religious institutions that churn out LPCs that are terrible. They got very poor foundations for counseling, I don't know what the standards were, but they are for sure subpar. We won't hire individuals from those local institutions.

    Yes, it is true that in general, social work has to have policy classes. However, USC has a great reputation and I'd be willing to be someone from their MSW program has an amazing foundation. I'd take them over a generic LPC focused program any day. When you are considering a master's degree you MUST look at the reputation of the specific program -- not of the university as a whole. Don't assume because it's a solid state school that it will have a clinically focused MSW program. Don't assume because it's a great private institution that it's LPC program will make sure you are able to pass the licensing exam at the end.

    I do not doubt that some individuals have a poor experience in an MSW program. However, I had classes with an individual who was married to an LPC who said, "my education was terrible, I see how successful and competent LCSWs are in this field, I'd advise that route." Honestly, these are just all anecdotal stories, so look at the programs you are comparing and see how employable they are after graduating. Look at job boards and see what credentials they are requesting. Look at what population you want to serve in the state you want to practice in. These are all important factors. Licensing issues can break you, and there are few people who will talk about this. There are some states in which LCSW won't be able to work in certain industries, yet in other states LCSWs are preferred for those areas.

    For every "non-clinical MSW" program someone complains about, I can show you an absolute trash master's level counseling program. They are highly un-regulated (unlike LMFT). I'm just going to keep screaming this from the rooftops, PLEASE REVIEW MENTAL HEALTH COUNSELING LAWS AND LICENSURE FOR THE STATE YOU'D LIKE TO PRACTICE IN.

    This does not apply so much to PhD's, but is highly important for masters level clinicians. In my state I could NOT be working where I am or engaging in the programs I'm in right now if I had gotten an LPC. PROGRAM MATTERS!!!
     
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  18. Goobernut

    Goobernut LMSW 5+ Year Member

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    I was in an MSW program and I don't feel this was true for my program at all. For fairness, some individuals in my cohort said that counseling programs completely ignore and refuse to teach that an individuals environment has an effect on one's psychology. Both extremes are wrong.
     
  19. wtfook

    wtfook

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    Are you practicing in CA? Because from my Cali friends I've heard how hard the road is if you're LPC there. MSWs are much more established and generally have a lot more flexibility than LPCs. It's very different in the northeast where I practice. I completely agree, and I'd said it earlier, that your state's norms and who is hiring whom can be a huge factor in what kind of program you decide to apply for. The other is the level of instruction and standard of practice. TECHNICALLY you all need to take the same classes in order to even be eligible for licensure, but who knows if the quality of those classes are equivalent.
     
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  20. DreamyPursuit88

    DreamyPursuit88

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    Goobernut makes a good point that MSW programs can vary tremendously in terms of the clinical learning completed, but inevitably the first year will conform to very generalist (non-clinical) standards. Also, most of the better programs I've come across, especially the online ones -- like USC -- are incredibly expensive, some nearly in the six figures. I don't think any degree below a doctorate is worth that kind of debt unless you are wealthy enough to forgo the need for loans. For many, in-state public universities are the only economically responsible options.

    I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say un-regulated. The LPC licensure standards for accrediting graduate MHC programs are maintained by CACREP just as LMFTs are by COAMFTE and LSWs by the NASW. Echoing the above, LPCs are certainly limited in California and a few other places where they have ample opportunity outside of Medicare (e.g. SNFs) in most states otherwise. Here in Pennsylvania, LMFTs seem to be the most limited from all three, but not significantly.
     
  21. jmiah717

    jmiah717

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    This is simply not true. By what measure have you decided this to be the case? Not only is there a difference in whether or not the federal government will even hire you if you have the LPC vs LCSW, there are insurances that don't even reimburse for LPC that do for LCSW. I work with many good LCSW's and have worked with great LPC's too. The schooling is not the difference. The difference is the amount of post graduate school training in various forms of psychotherapies one attends and how much you work on honing your craft. But one being objectively better than the other is simply a falsehood. There's not a master's degree in LPC, it's a license you get after getting a counseling or psych degree. Each program is going to be different in how much they emphasize clinical work, when it comes to social work. So, if that's your goal, do your homework and pick a program that will better fit those needs.

    Source: I am a LCSW
     
  22. singasongofjoy

    singasongofjoy 2+ Year Member

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    FWIW, I'm not either an LCSW or an LPC but am friends with people who have done each-- the relative difficulty of getting a job/practicing what you want to do/how LPC vs LCSW is viewed seems to vary widely by geography, so it's important to look at how things are in your particular state (or the state in which you hope to practice after graduation). I did a masters in a program that set me up to pursue LPC but in my neck of the woods it's not really all that easy to do the types of work I'd want to do,or to find a job, really- LCSW has more flexibility around here.
     
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  23. Goobernut

    Goobernut LMSW 5+ Year Member

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    So this is what I'm talking about when I refer to state standards. In my state, CACREP accreditation is not required for individuals to sit for the LPC or LBP exam (google that license for an interesting rabbit hole). There are educational minimums, but you can graduate from an HR program and still sit for the LPC exam. I am not completely sure if colleges in our state have to be COAMFTE accredited for an individual to sit for the LMFT exam in our state. I used to know when I was researching licenses, but I've since forgotten haha. However, nationally a program has to be CSWE (not NASW) accredited before they can sit for any exam in any state.

    Again, I want to be clear, that I'm not saying that the MSW is better than any other masters program. I am saying "buyer beware" at the master's level. It does frustrate me when individuals who have not taken a single MSW class assume they have a working knowledge of what my education entails. When you say, "the first year is very generalist" do you have a concept of what that means in relationship to every single MSW program ever, or are you just making assumptions? In addition, are you considering variability in relationship to hours required to complete the different masters programs? Mental health programs vary widely by state AND programs within a state. My masters program was 60 hours -- all MSW programs for non-advanced standing students are required to be 60 hours by a national standard. So lets just say, for the sake of argument, that my first year was "very generalist." On average, compared with other public college mental health programs in my state, the mental health programs require about 45 hours, as the CACREP minimums are not adhered to strictly because it's not required to sit for the exam. So I'm getting an additional 15 hours of graduate instruction that the mental health counseling programs (in my state) are not receiving, which might, in part compensate for that "very generalist" first year. You know making the assumption that I didn't have A SINGLE clinical class that first year. Again, it's not my goal to say, because I'm an MSW that's what everyone should do, I'm saying it was absolutely 100% the right decision to make for me in my situation.

    Now are there mental health counseling programs in other states that could have given me a better foundation on therapy skills? I bet so! There is always a better program somewhere. Are there generalist MSW programs in other states that leave people ill-equipped to conduct therapy? Most likely. Are there problems with MSW programs? Yes! Despite the "standardization" MSW programs can and will have vastly different programs. I'm going to assume that most likely goes for CACREP and COMAFTE programs too. All that being said, for someone to say across the board, "all mental health programs prepare you better for therapy than MSW programs" is extremely ignorant and demonstrates the individuals lack of knowledge of the entire mental health industry and master's level programs. I will even say that in reverse, if anyone tells you that MSW programs are always superior, that person should also not be trusted.

    In addition, if you can't bill Medicare, you basically cut yourself out of working in certain areas of mental health. One of which was the areas I was highly interested in. I wanted to work with individuals with chronic illnesses, who are often on disability. If my licensure didn't allow me to bill Medicare as a payer source, I'd be ignoring a large part of the population I wanted to work with, and do currently work with right now. It's not just the elderly who use Medicare.
     
  24. Goobernut

    Goobernut LMSW 5+ Year Member

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    This. If anyone learns anything from this thread, let it be this.

    Oh, and I'd add the population you want to work with. For example, if its your everlasting dream to work with veterans, and you decide you only need an LPC, make sure the school you go to is CACREP accredited, because if not, you'll never be able to bill Tricare, which most veterans have. Therefore making it REALLY hard to work with that population.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2017
  25. golightning

    golightning

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    Hey guys, sorry, I've been busy and haven't replied. Thanks for all of the information. From my homework, although LPC and LCSW seem indistinguishable in the local job market, the generic curriculum worries me with MSW (for the counseling part, that is.) On one hand, I wish I could be dead set on something, and at 22, I really should be. I was actually even just debating starting with a masters in psychology, but I only see local community colleges hiring with that credential. On the other hand, counseling seems like it would be something that would give me a purpose, but I'd be full of it if I didn't say the cost of the local tuition for the programs and the starting salary worries me. I actually was helping my father do some HVAC the other day and the lady he was servicing was a counselor for veterans with the exact same disease as me. We chatted and although she enjoys it, she did graduate with some debt she warned me about when compared to the salary. Thankfully though, I completed an A.G.S., and will be completing my BS completely debt free (I went with the college that wasn't my "dream", but was the most economical), so at least it won't be stacking extra debt on top of old debt. Thanks again to all of you for your contribution :)
     
  26. singasongofjoy

    singasongofjoy 2+ Year Member

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    OMG STAAAAHP :) You don't have to be "dead set" on something at 22. I wasn't, though I did head to a funded master's program at 23 (still not sure what I wanted to do, but figured it would open up some additional options and put me in contact with people who did jobs I thought sounded like fun, though tbh I wouldn't have done it if I didn't get the funding because I wasn't sure what I wanted to do career-wise). It eventually led to a job for a few years post-MS, and then back to grad school for psych. My career plan has always been "I'll figure it out when I get there" and in the meantime keep talking to interesting people of sorts of backgrounds and doing things I find interesting and fulfilling as opportunities arise. I'm in my 30s now and my focus has gradually narrowed, and it's easy to see the common thread/theme in retrospect that was hard to see at the beginning. I still think there is a lot to be said to remaining open to opportunities throughout your career. If you work hard and do well at the fun/intriguing things you choose to do, you'll encounter people and opportunities that will help you figure out for yourself the next logical step even if that means you take a year or two or three or more to reach the decision to go back to school (at least half of the people in my program had done the same, while still staying involved in research and/or clinical work somehow). It's hard to have the perspective to have it all figured out beforehand. That's not to say don't be pragmatic -- you still want to keep your options for the future open by, for example, keeping a good GPA, being involved in a variety of things, and doing well at whatever it is you do so you have good references and a good track record. But don't beat yourself up over not having it all figured out at this stage. Give yourself some time to find that connecting thread if you're not sure. You're not closing doors by taking some time to make an informed decision about your next step (and considering the debt part is a really important aspect of making an informed decision, so good you're already considering it!!)
     
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  27. Goobernut

    Goobernut LMSW 5+ Year Member

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    You don't have to make up your mind at 22 :) I didn't, and I adore my meandering path. I could not be where I am now without some of my indecision and gaps.

    I don't think you meant for the above that I quoted to sound harsh, but please be mindful of how you refer to someone else's education. It's pretty disrespectful to refer to someone's graduate degree as "generic curriculum." An MSW is hardly "generic." Even with your qualifier of the "for the counseling part." People have different reasons for picking their degree, for allllll the reasons I outlined above.
     
  28. golightning

    golightning

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    Oh lord, I didn't intend on it sounding harsh! I completely respect an MSW, without a doubt. My worry about it is it's not as focused on counseling as mental health counseling, for obvious reasons. Again though, I hope I didn't offend anyone because I completely respect an MSW :)
     
  29. golightning

    golightning

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    Lol I miss the good ol' days of being in high school thinking life would be figured out at like 22 xD Being open is why I have gotten here :) I actually started at my community college thinking I wanted to be a mechanical engineer. However, for some reason my community college wanted me to go speak to the director of the engineering dept. I literally went there and got told really quickly how because I have a GED, my chances of graduating college is hard, nonetheless becoming an engineer would be impossible (he was a little more harsh.) I quickly changed my mind and focused on general education and LOVED psychology, so picked it as my major and haven't really regretted it. I still have 3 semesters (Summer, Fall, and Spring) and I am going to try to raise my GPA. My biggest concern is I am a ball of anxiety thanks to my intestinal problems, so I do prefer online learning, and there's no APA accredited online PhD/PsyD, but there are accredited online counseling programs (aside from obvious things like internships) in my state from colleges like NC State, Wake Forest, and NCCU.
     
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  30. sabine_psyd

    sabine_psyd

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    PsyD's make more money than $40k. If you get an APA accredited internship, you could get a formal postdoc, and most of those follow the NIH guideline for salaries (currently approximately $47,000). I have seen postdocs for as low as $37,000 and as high as $55,000 in the area I intend to specialize in. This is the first year out of school when you're not even licensed yet. Salary later depends on where you work, but definitely higher than $40k.


    Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
     
  31. golightning

    golightning

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    Sorry, I must have gotten ahead of myself when typing that. I think when I was writing that up I was thinking about counselors because that's the only way I could fathom myself saying that low of a salary. How's your PsyD going so far? Are you enjoying it? The closest one to me that I found was at F.I.T.
     
  32. sabine_psyd

    sabine_psyd

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    Mar 2, 2017
    I'm in my last year and about to start an APA accredited internship. I think that my school offered good training in therapy and basic assessment, but I had some interest in neuro (not enough to make a career of it) and needed to seek outside experiences that weren't directly offered by the school in order to get adequate training by individuals who are boarded (ABPP-CN). Also I had to seek out research experiences in my intended specialization through connections I made at practicum. In short, I feel like I had to make connections on my own without any help from my school in order to get the type of training I wanted. Another student made outside connections and did a ton of extracurricular research activities and got an internship in neuro at an AMC (not saying name due to anonymity). She is an outlier in terms of the types of students my program produces, and I am as well, being published, having posters and presentations at conferences etc. If I am successful in obtaining a formal postdoc, I will continue to be an outlier. Most students work at UCC, CMHC, or private practices after graduation but that is not the route I will go.


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