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Discussion in 'Medical Students - DO' started by kahlil78, May 20, 2001.

  1. kahlil78

    kahlil78 Member 10+ Year Member

    Mar 7, 2001
    Arlington, TX, U.S.A.
    Im going to be an M.D. student, but I am interested in learning more about OMM. Where can I get more info? Also, is there any sort of OMM training thats available for M.D.'s?
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  3. Popoy

    Popoy SDN Super Moderator 10+ Year Member

    Apr 22, 2001
    I think there has been past trend on this try using the search link....

    You are threading on thin ice though. There are many out there that feel that OMM should be solely for the osteopaths because if MD's start learning the OMM (which many feel you CANNOT do in a matter of a course or two) then this would take away one of those things that separate the osteopaths from the allopaths. This was expressed by a "fellow" when I interviewed and he felt that having that OMM training does truly separate osteopaths from allopaths. He didn't even want to teach his MD student friends....

    I do commend you for embrassing the OMM portion of the osteopathic philosophy. There are many ignorant people out there that are sometimes blindsided....

    Anyway, happy searching....
  4. OldManDave

    OldManDave Fossil Bouncer Emeritus Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    Feb 26, 1999
    Lafayette, IN
    I just want to emphasize that not all DO-students feel as Poboy cautioned. In fact, I would venture to claim that the majority of the students I know at KCOM agree that OMM should be openly taught to our MD colleagues.

    In my honest opinion, it is completely contradictory to the true intent of AT Still to not teach his ideas & corollaries to anyone who wishes to improve the care that they can deliver to their patients. This has been, and unfortunately continues to be, a failing of the AOA, born of their own insecurity regarding our professions position in the world of medicine.
  5. Popoy

    Popoy SDN Super Moderator 10+ Year Member

    Apr 22, 2001
    That's a very good point there Dave thanks for addressing that....
  6. ckent

    ckent Banned Banned

    Jul 31, 2000
    I don't even know what OMM is, but if you, as a health care professional, view something as truly being good for patients, I don't see why you wouldn't want to share it with your colleagues so that it could benefit more patients. This isn't some competition...
  7. Hippocrates

    Hippocrates Member 10+ Year Member

    Nov 18, 2000
    Columbia, MD, U.S.A
    I believe that scientific knowledge should be shared between professionals. I think it is a wonderful and essential practice for improving the world of medicine and health care. MDs should be allowed to learn OMM as they are right now. AOA's best public awareness campaign of what D.O.s are is to share what is unique to osteopathic medicine with the rest of the physician community.
  8. kahlil78

    kahlil78 Member 10+ Year Member

    Mar 7, 2001
    Arlington, TX, U.S.A.
    That reply from Popoy kind of left a bitter taste in my mouth. On second thought, maybe I'll just focus on learning the things they teach at my school.
  9. Popoy

    Popoy SDN Super Moderator 10+ Year Member

    Apr 22, 2001
    Sorry you feel that way... but I'm just conveying what was told to me.

    Personally, I think as professionals we should definitely share as much about each others profession as much as we can. And as been posted by others, not all osteopaths are as gung ho about not sharing their OMM as that particular fellow that had share those thoughts to us interviewers.... I have many of friends that are pursuing the MD route and I'm more than happy to share the OMM part of osteo once I start learning it. I see it as a way of educating others about OMM....

    Anyway, hope you found your answer about MD's pursuing the OMM part of osteopathic med. Lots of Luck. You should post up what you find so that others may know.... Thanx
  10. Don't be discouraged by what one student says. I know that there are several schools that teach OMM to MDs. I believe that NYCOM and MSUCOM are two of the schools that do this. I've met several MDs who use OMM regularly in their practice. In fact, they told me that they teach for the OMM academy. PM&R is one of those fields that embraces OMM and many of the programs that I interviewed at taught OMM to the residents. The programs include Northwestern, Boston U, Baylor, etc.

    You could either go to the schools that teach the courses or go to the courses offered by the academy. Good luck.
  11. Izlamic M

    Izlamic M Member 7+ Year Member

    May 26, 2001
    Stinky - how do the MDs code for it if they use it? There are special osteopathic codes that only DOs use. Chiropracters can't use 'em, PT's can't use 'em, MDs can't use 'em. I imagine that there are a set of manipulative med codes that MDs can use but I don't figure they get full compensation compared with what a DO can get (please no flames - I've made it very apparant that I'm NOT SURE about this so don't go off on me).

    About learning OMT - yeah I think MDs can learn it; remember OMT is ONE PART of osteopathic medicine and there's a whole generation of DOs who hardly use it. But, take into account, ya Khalid, that we spend several hours a week for 2 years learning this skill, and once you stop using your hands - you lose it. A weekend course won't cut it, but I have heard of DO residents being pulled into allopathic programs to teach the rest of them how to do some soft tissue or other techniques.
  12. turtleboard

    turtleboard SDN Advisor 10+ Year Member

    Jun 3, 1999
    New York, New York
    I think the line is: "You can't spell 'doctor' without D.O."

    You guys funny.

    Oh... And the ever-popular, "49 other states have done it, just D.O. it."

  13. Izlamic M

    Izlamic M Member 7+ Year Member

    May 26, 2001
    Sorry - my bad - I guess the post I wrote was in reply to INTERN - I have no idea why I thought somebody named Stinky wrote it - no offense meant, Intern.

    In any case - I'd never LEARN OMM from a MD and wonder what in the world they're doing teaching at the OMM academy (not even sure what that is - I'm familiar with the cranial academy, but never heard of the OMM academy)
  14. JoeDoc

    JoeDoc Member 10+ Year Member

    Jun 15, 2000
    Glendale, AZ USA
    I agree that OMM can't be learned in a weekend, but 36 weekends spread out over three years might do the trick. They should probably do something to certify MD's in it like they did with acupuncture in Maryland. For years the state law required over 2000 hrs. of training at an accredited acupuncture school for licensure, hence the practice of acupuncture was limited to acupuncturists. The catch was that acupuncturists could only legally see patients who had been seen first by a physician. This was annoying for everyone involved so a deal was made in the mid '90's: physicians can now practice acupuncture with only 200 hrs. of training and acupuncturists can treat without referrals.

    Having said all that, I think when it comes to someone doing HVLA on my C1 I'd prefer that they DIDN'T learn it at a seminar. However, more should be done to educate MD's about the benefits of OMM. Better education = more referrals to competant practitioners = happier patients.
  15. I am not sure how they code for OMT. :confused: Most of the M.D.s were at academic insitutions so coding probably was not as big of a concern.
  16. sean

    sean Senior Member 10+ Year Member

    Mar 11, 1999
    San Francisco
    I was just going through this thread and it hit upon a point that has always bothered me. OMM is a very physical skill and it takes more than intellectual knowledge to be good at it. Do you all feel that the training you get is adequate, especially when it is ofetn held up as the skill that differentiates DO's from MD's?
  17. John DO

    John DO A.T. Still Endowed Chair 7+ Year Member

    Jun 19, 2001
    Tampa Bay, FL
    My understanding is that OSU-COM teaches OMT (another acronym for the same concept) to MDs regularly because of a keen interest in the Tulsa area. In fact, I have been told that the OMT lab is partially taught by an MD graduate of the program. You should contact the school, though, because I am not a student there (I was accepted, but chose KCOM). OSU-COM's website is
  18. Hskermdic

    Hskermdic Senior Member 10+ Year Member

    Nov 17, 1998
    I know the Michigan State COM at least used to offer a program for MDs to learn OMM. I know of an MD who went through that program and now does OMM in a practice with a chiropractor.
  19. apple638

    apple638 Senior Member 10+ Year Member

    Jun 14, 2001
    Metairie, La
    I feel that OMM is essential for patient care. I have a few questions about MDs learning OMM.
    1. Is it possible that OMM could be an elective for 4th year MD students?
    2. If allopathic medical schools start teaching OMM, what would separate DOs from MDs?
    3. If OMM was widely accepted by allopathic medical schools, would there be a merger between both types of physicians leaving only one complete type of physician?
  20. macman

    macman Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    Apr 9, 2001
    I think I may have an interesting twist on this debate--my mother is a chiro and she related to me a story about m.d.'s taking chiro seminars-contrary to what might be expected-they learned enough that they appreciated manipulations benefits but not enough to really use it-what chiros first saw as a threat turned out to bbe a boon of referrals...I am all for M.D.'s learning about manipulation-then there profession will have more interests in common with D.O> 's and will help us to lobby for reinbursment etc. Apparently some M.D. schools currently teach "biomechanics" - I think that is great- I hope this is interesting for you guys...

  21. pjyrkinen

    pjyrkinen Junior Member 7+ Year Member

    Jul 2, 2001
    virginia beach
    My friends

    Quite squabbling over what an MD can do or what a DO can do. It doesn't matter. There isn't anything wrong with an MD wanting to learn a few tricks of the trade from a DO. I find it very refreshing that an MD wants to further his education in order to better serve his patients. (truly careing individule). A good physician doesn't just treat , diseases, colds and flue. He treats the body as a whole. And that includes the skeleton, and soft tissue as well the mind.
    If a little manipulation, or massage is in order then by all means do so. Soft tissue damage isn't to hard to learn how to treat either. So go for it and don't let a few closed minded individules stop you . Education is golden . GO FOR IT!

    PS. Here is another tip. Think about accupuncture as well. ;)
  22. macman

    macman Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    Apr 9, 2001
    Another thing:

    As a point of clarification--an MD CANNOT do OMM/OMT unless they matriculate at a DO school-however they can be taught manipulative techniques, OPP/OMT requires osteopathic princples, philosophy, and practice--being an osteopath is much more than learning how to crack someones back--it would take a lot of seminars for someone to be able to tune into the musculo-skeletal system--do some DO students never learn this-probably-i'm not on a high horse here--but I thought some language corrections were in order-not trying to create a pissing contest

    -tmac :rolleyes:
  23. Dr JPH

    Dr JPH Banned Banned 10+ Year Member

    Feb 4, 2000
    It seems as though some people view this as a team reluctant to show their opponent their play book.

    What I don't get is, I thought everyone was playing for the same team.

    Anyone ever hear that new NYSNC song...Pop, or whatever it is? (I apologize, I live in a house with a 16 year old sister.)

    Anyway...there is a line in there that may pertain...."Just worry about yours, cuz I'm gonna get mine."

    Well...if you are a DO using OMM, why should you feel threatened by an MD counterpart who has similar, if not identical, knowledge of these skills?

    Seems to me the only person who would feel threated by this would be someone insecure about their role in the medical field as a DO. Either that or they think that the only thing that separates DOs from MDs is the use of OMM. That's too bad.

    It's not the letters after your name. It's the patients' health after you treat them.

  24. macman

    macman Senior Member 7+ Year Member

    Apr 9, 2001
    I am a little confused....

    The last two postings (besides my own) have made reference to a turf war or I read back through my postings, and those of others I see nothing that implies anyone is being disrespectful towards any other I missing something?

    I tried to be as clear as possible that I thought manipulation can and maybe even should be learned (by lets say M.D.'s) post graduation. I know that med. school stresses us all out and we can get sensitive, but I have tried my best to state facts, not opinion, and at the very least exchange ideas

    As a DO student, and having a mother as a chiropractor, I am probably qualified to define the differences between professions and although it sounds nice to say "why distinguish?", that is not fair to any profession and not fair to patients researching their options of care. Professions can clearly define who they are without saying they are better. Would I prefer a skilled DO over any other manipluator? Yes, but that is my personal decision and I will always continue to seek knowledge and advances in patient care no matter what letters are behind someones name.

    Two entries I refer to were posted by pjyrkinen and jphazelton. I would encourage them and others to please review the postings under this subject and offer their experiences and knowledge, I would respectfully disagree with their interpretations of my posings and the postings of others here, and also apologize if my language was not clear-I hope the above was!

    -tmac DO '04
  25. kidterrific

    kidterrific Senior Member 10+ Year Member

    Oct 12, 2000
    Detroit, MI
    I heard that MD's can take an elective class that covers this topic. It's called "Biomechanics," or something like that.

    Am I wrong?
  26. drchrislareau

    drchrislareau Member 7+ Year Member

    Apr 10, 2001
    Marcy, New York, USA
    I think if A.T. Still were here he would be glad to show any M.D. how to do manipulation.

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