M.D. vs. D.N.P.

[Sephiroth]

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Haha, I work as a tutor for undergrad sciences, and I get a lot of BSN students, one of my favorite lines is: "I'm just not really that in to the science-y parts of medicine"
I wonder if this carries over to DNP programs.

That's kind of my whole issue with nurses that push for more autonomy. Nursing education has generally been centered around patient care, not diagnosis and treatment. It's a totally different education. If anything I would think PA's would be more appropriate, though they should still have some level of physician oversight (I've seen practice run by a physician but with PAs making up much of the practice - seems like a decent model, especially for areas where primary care is lacking and there wouldn't be enough doctors to go around).

 

[crmellon]

That's kind of my whole issue with nurses that push for more autonomy. Nursing education has generally been centered around patient care, not diagnosis and treatment. It's a totally different education. If anything I would think PA's would be more appropriate, though they should still have some level of physician oversight (I've seen practice run by a physician but with PAs making up much of the practice - seems like a decent model, especially for areas where primary care is lacking and there wouldn't be enough doctors to go around).

I absolutely agree. People often fail to realize that the education for BSN students in the sciences is dramatically inferior to almost every other pre-health (medicine, dental, pharm, vet). The diagnosing ability of most NPs comes almost exclusively from either a protocol based learning or just a lot of "I've seen this before." I also tutor students going from BSN to NP or MSN in statistics and science courses, and not that my students are indicative of the whole, but their conceptual abilities are frighteningly weak when it comes to understanding mechanisms of pathologies and physiology. They really just didn't have an education geared towards that.

 

[Bacchus]

That is exactly what I am talking about. I'm sorry to say it, but all the nurses that come from my school can't even draw blood correctly. So giving them the responsibilities of a medical doctor is ridiculous.

Phlebotomy probably isn't the best example. I've only done it on my peds rotation and that's because it was a school run clinic that worked us into the ground.

 

[music2doc]

Phlebotomy probably isn't the best example. I've only done it on my peds rotation and that's because it was a school run clinic that worked us into the ground.

This thought came to my mind as well. I'm not quite sure how phlebotomy or IV skills are really a good indication of whether or not an RN could become equal to an MD (although it may say something about his/her ability to master skills when s/he is already asking for more responsibility when s/he is still failing to master the basics at his/her current level of training...).

 

[dazzle42]

If you guys watch the video, at 2:07 the DNP clearly says the difference between a nurses and physicians is the philosophy of care provided. So as far as I am concerned, they are equivalent.

Sounds like the DO argument! is this a jOKE?!

 

[TriagePreMed]

I absolutely agree. People often fail to realize that the education for BSN students in the sciences is dramatically inferior to almost every other pre-health (medicine, dental, pharm, vet). The diagnosing ability of most NPs comes almost exclusively from either a protocol based learning or just a lot of "I've seen this before." I also tutor students going from BSN to NP or MSN in statistics and science courses, and not that my students are indicative of the whole, but their conceptual abilities are frighteningly weak when it comes to understanding mechanisms of pathologies and physiology. They really just didn't have an education geared towards that.

The BSN is such a huge joke. They take 1 semester anatomy, 1 semester physiology, 1 semester microbiology, and 2 semesters of "pharmacology for nursing." Aside from this, there is no science. Rarely do programs require basic chemistry (not even at the level of gen chem 1).

 

[ncsci]

I've given a lot of thought to this as well, and I've hadchats with many MDs, NPs, and RNs about this. Here is some of the information I have received.

When speaking with many of the "older" physicians they donot view quality in terms of titles. Oneof them explained to me that the ability to be a good health provider boilsdown to the individual's drive to be the best. Essentially the name after the title is what patients will ultimately lookfor when seeking a provider.

The first time I asked a younger physician about this topiche looked at me odd at first (that look when you said something absolutely stupid)The younger MD explained the concept of teamwork in regards to patient flow ata clinic. The goal is to be able to seeas many patients as possible while providing excellent care. The clinic rallies around a team leader, thesenior MD, whom teaches the rest of the team how the clinic functions andoperates. New hire MDs and NPs must begreat team players, and again it's the name of the individual NP or MD thatwill make that happen.

When I asked an NP about this she said that rarely doesanyone want to practice alone these days, and that its important to alignyourself with providers that have the best reputation in your area, in order tolearn from the best. When starting out,she knew nothing about being a provider, but after collaborating with others itbecame easier.

I asked several RNs if they would use an NP as their primarycare provider. Once again the same oldsong and dance, "it depends on who it is"

So my take from this is if you want to take care ofpatients, you must be a team player. Learn from the senior most people on your team, and emulate theirsuccess. Establish yourself in yourcommunity as a knowledgeable and competent provider and patients will come tosee you. Ultimately experience will bethe best teacher.

P.S.

Despite all of this I believe that ultimately new regulationwill come out, to the point that national licensing exams for DNP and MDs willhave to be the same.

 

[music2doc]

The BSN is such a huge joke. They take 1 semester anatomy, 1 semester physiology, 1 semester microbiology, and 2 semesters of "pharmacology for nursing." Aside from this, there is no science. Rarely do programs require basic chemistry (not even at the level of gen chem 1).

While I don't entirely disagree, both my UG and PB schools' nursing programs (BSN programs) required a chem survey course (1 semester gen chem/1 semester combined fundamentals of ochem/biochem) as well as the above-mentioned requirements. I believe they also have to take a low-level intro to nutrition course.

 

[NickNaylor]

While I don't entirely disagree, both my UG and PB schools' nursing programs (BSN programs) required a chem survey course (1 semester gen chem/1 semester combined fundamentals of ochem/biochem) as well as the above-mentioned requirements. I believe they also have to take a low-level intro to nutrition course.

That doesn't really make me feel better out BSNs...

 

[music2doc]

That doesn't really make me feel better out BSNs...

I wasn't really trying to make you feel any better about them, Nick.... Honestly though, from what I've experienced, their abilities really vary by unit. This makes me suspect that most of what they learn occurs on-the-job. I've noticed that the ED and ICU nurses I've worked with are FAR sharper than the ones on, say, med-surg and the psych nurses I've worked with knew mental health quite well, but the older ones knew little medically. (The newer ones easily adapted to new places when our psych unit closed and they were forced elsewhere.) I suspect this is not unlike med students. Sure, the nurses have weaker science backgrounds but they don't really need the physicians' level of science background. It's not their job to diagnose. They are the physicians' eyes and ears. They also provide a lot of the emotional care that so many docs are absolutely p*ss-poor at providing.

 

[Sephiroth]

I wasn't really trying to make you feel any better about them, Nick.... Honestly though, from what I've experienced, their abilities really vary by unit. This makes me suspect that most of what they learn occurs on-the-job. I've noticed that the ED and ICU nurses I've worked with are FAR sharper than the ones on, say, med-surg and the psych nurses I've worked with knew mental health quite well, but the older ones knew little medically. (The newer ones easily adapted to new places when our psych unit closed and they were forced elsewhere.) I suspect this is not unlike med students. Sure, the nurses have weaker science backgrounds but they don't really need the physicians' level of science background. It's not their job to diagnose. They are the physicians' eyes and ears. They also provide a lot of the emotional care that so many docs are absolutely p*ss-poor at providing.

Yeah, I'm sure there are some really good nurses out there who are capable of providing solid care on their own right, but if much of the learning is OTJ, that means it's not standardized education, so there is much less oversight in ensuring that all DNPs would be capable of providing that level of care. And while there may be some incompetent physicians out there, I'm sure that's much more of a rarity given the testing, residency and licensing regulations on physicians. And as you indicated in your last statement, nurses are really designated as having a different place in patient care than physicians. They're just different things.

 

[music2doc]

Yeah, I'm sure there are some really good nurses out there who are capable of providing solid care on their own right, but if much of the learning is OTJ, that means it's not standardized education, so there is much less oversight in ensuring that all DNPs would be capable of providing that level of care. And while there may be some incompetent physicians out there, I'm sure that's much more of a rarity given the testing, residency and licensing regulations on physicians. And as you indicated in your last statement, nurses are really designated as having a different place in patient care than physicians. They're just different things.

I agree. I certainly don't think most RNs/BSNs would make good NPs. Some do, but many don't. It's variable.

 

[Joe the Plumber]

While I don't entirely disagree, both my UG and PB schools' nursing programs (BSN programs) required a chem survey course (1 semester gen chem/1 semester combined fundamentals of ochem/biochem) as well as the above-mentioned requirements. I believe they also have to take a low-level intro to nutrition course.

Wow! I feel so much better now. Because a "chem survey course" is just like two semesters each of inorganic chemistry and organic chemistry and one semester of biochemistry. On the other hand, a keen knowlege of chemistry probably isn't needed to dx basic primary care stuff.

 

[bajastapler]

You keep it going man, you keep those books rolling,
You pick up those books your going to read
And not remember and you roll man.
You get that a sociate degree, okay,
Then you get your bachelors, then you get your masters
Then you get your master's masters,
Then you get your doctron,
You go man, then when everybody says quit
You show them those degree man, when
Everybody says hey, your not working,
Your not making in money,
You say look at my degrees and you look at my life,
Yeah i'm 52, so what, hate all you want,
But i'm smart, i'm so smart, and i'm in school,
And these guys are out here making
Money all these ways, and i'm spended mine to be smart.
You know why?
Because when i die, buddy, you know
What going to keep me warm, that right, those degrees

^this times a million please

edit: on a serious note though I think the need for primary care providers is due to our fractured health care system T_T.
#firstworldproblems

 

[music2doc]

Wow! I feel so much better now. Because a "chem survey course" is just like two semesters each of inorganic chemistry and organic chemistry and one semester of biochemistry. On the other hand, a keen knowlege of chemistry probably isn't needed to dx basic primary care stuff.

In other words, they're not entirely clueless. Consider what they are being trained to do. They're not being trained to be physicians. As nurses and nurse managers, they are trained at the necessary level. I do agree that most are not prepared to go on to become NPs and that NPs should never have full autonomy due to their lack of complete medical training.

 

[ACE Rx]

The BSN is such a huge joke. They take 1 semester anatomy, 1 semester physiology, 1 semester microbiology, and 2 semesters of "pharmacology for nursing." Aside from this, there is no science. Rarely do programs require basic chemistry (not even at the level of gen chem 1).

That's it? Most other health professions require those as pre-reqs and then you take the clinical version of those courses once you get accepted. For nursing programs that do not even require general chemistry and they want prescribing authority without even the basic idea of how that medication works much less what is a mole or osmolarity of something is a joke.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Wow! I feel so much better now. Because a "chem survey course" is just like two semesters each of inorganic chemistry and organic chemistry and one semester of biochemistry. On the other hand, a keen knowlege of chemistry probably isn't needed to dx basic primary care stuff.

It's not like the classes you listed in this post aren't as a basic as it gets.... not much better than a "chem survey course"....

 

[Joe the Plumber]

It's not like the classes you listed in this post aren't as a basic as it gets.... not much better than a "chem survey course"....

Basic relative to what we'll get in medical school. But far more advanced than a chem survey class. And I think the big thing is, the baccalaureate and post-baccalaureate science education for nurses is light (from what I've heard - I don't really know), whereas pre-med suffer through a fairly rigorous science courseload (minimum two semesters each of inorganic chemistry, organic chemistry, physics, and biology, plus calc and stats--and way more than that for most pre-meds) and that's just to get their BS or BA. Then our minds get dominated during medical school. If this is wrong, please somebody correct me.

 

[crmellon]

Basic relative to what we'll get in medical school. But far more advanced than a chem survey class. And I think the big thing is, the baccalaureate and post-baccalaureate science education for nurses is light (from what I've heard - I don't really know), whereas pre-med suffer through a fairly rigorous science courseload (minimum two semesters each of inorganic chemistry, organic chemistry, physics, and biology, plus calc and stats--and way more than that for most pre-meds) and that's just to get their BS or BA. Then our minds get dominated during medical school. If this is wrong, please somebody correct me.

The BSN students I tutor at my University take one semester of Gen Bio, a nursing pathophysiology course with an extremely high fail rate, an introductory anatomy course, and a course called Chem 100, which is basically on par with HS chemistry, if not less than that. They get a brief introduction to the naming of organic compounds, and if they pass everything and their gen eds are sent right into clinical training.

 

[Joe the Plumber]

The BSN students I tutor at my University take one semester of Gen Bio, a nursing pathophysiology course with an extremely high fail rate, an introductory anatomy course, and a course called Chem 100, which is basically on par with HS chemistry, if not less than that. They get a brief introduction to the naming of organic compounds, and if they pass everything and their gen eds are sent right into clinical training.

Sounds about right, although I'm sure there is a lot of variation among nursing schools. I would like to note that I freaking love nurses and they're critical to healthcare. I think it would amazing to marry a nurse or NP... there's something hot about a nurse, period, plus you can live quite well on $180,000 + $70,000.

 

[crmellon]

Sounds about right, although I'm sure there is a lot of variation among nursing schools. I would like to note that I freaking love nurses and they're critical to healthcare. I think it would amazing to marry a nurse or NP... there's something hot about a nurse, period, plus you can live quite well on $180,000 + $70,000.

I've dated nurses, and my mother is a nurse. They are in no way less intelligent or bad practitioners, but when the discussion arises of them practicing on their own, they do not possess enough training to make objective differential diagnosis, without a doubt.

 

[Joe the Plumber]

I've dated nurses, and my mother is a nurse. They are in no way less intelligent or bad practitioners, but when the discussion arises of them practicing on their own, they do not possess enough training to make objective differential diagnosis, without a doubt.

Truth is, I know several who could've gone to med school. But they didn't, and that's the point. But yeah nurses are the s***.

 

[crmellon]

Yeah, and if a nurse wants to practice medicine on their own, I feel they should have every opportunity to go to medical school, match into a residency, and practice medicine.

 

[TriagePreMed]

That's it? Most other health professions require those as pre-reqs and then you take the clinical version of those courses once you get accepted. For nursing programs that do not even require general chemistry and they want prescribing authority without even the basic idea of how that medication works much less what is a mole or osmolarity of something is a joke.

At the community college I'm at there's a special course called "Chemistry for Health Sciences." From time to time there's a "pre-nursing" student that wants to become more competitive for programs and sign up directly for Gen Chem 2. According to my professor, he's never seen one be successful in the course.

 

[gatorade848]

I have seen multiple posts that are anti-NP or anti-DNP that are so infantile they feel like playground bullying. I don't see MD/DO outrage when optometrists or podiatrists or pharmacists call themselves Dr. Why so against nurses? Because MDs consistently berate and belittle the nursing profession, this what is taught in med school, a form of arrogance and workplace violence that is passed down from resident to resident and the expected norm for behavior.
ANY person who receives their doctorate, call call themselves Doctor. Do you wish to ban all psychologists, history professors and other university faculty from using the term for the degree they have earned? No, just nurses, because MD/DOs love to blame nurses, criticize nurses and belittle nurses.
By the way, the term Doctor originated as a Doctor of PHILOSOPHY not doctor of medicine and was appropriated by the medical profession.

really? in the hospital setting "doctor" has long been seen as a fully trained physician that went through years of medical training in medical school/residency. nurse and "doctors" have very different responsibilities in the hospital and calling them both doctors is a recipe for massive confusion for the patients and even medical professionals. they work together, and they need to have clearly defined boundaries.

how would you feel if a private security guard decides to call himself a cop? lets say your house is being robbed by a guy with a gun while your kids is sleeping inside, how would you feel if you thought you called "police" but then a security guard showed up unarmed and has no idea what to do to clear the house and arrest the bad guy? would you be pissed? yes. it is a recipe for disaster? yes.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

If you're in a hospital and not a MD/DO then do not call yourself a Doctor. It is as simple as that.
In terms of DPM's, Optometrist, sure they have a doctorate and are doctors, but they are not medical doctors. And even then doctors complain when these guys overstep their bounds such as with Lasik surgery or etc. They are limited to what they do, they are not medical doctors and should not practice what medical doctors do as they are not trained to do such.

 

[sliceofbread136]

At the community college I'm at there's a special course called "Chemistry for Health Sciences." From time to time there's a "pre-nursing" student that wants to become more competitive for programs and sign up directly for Gen Chem 2. According to my professor, he's never seen one be successful in the course.

🙄

Primary care is making a shift to mid-level providers (PAs DNPs). Sorry SDN, you can't stop it.

 

[sylvanthus]

🙄

Primary care is making a shift to mid-level providers (PAs DNPs). Sorry SDN, you can't stop it.

I call BS. First this is unfounded, wheres the evidence in support showing FM docs being pushed out? Second, there is no way in hell DNPs are going to just stay with primary care. Soon as their foot is in the door, I guarantee you will see them specialize. After all, there are already freakin DERM residencies for nurses now.

 

[sliceofbread136]

I call BS. First this is unfounded, wheres the evidence in support showing FM docs being pushed out? Second, there is no way in hell DNPs are going to just stay with primary care. Soon as their foot is in the door, I guarantee you will see them specialize. After all, there are already freakin DERM residencies for nurses now.

I don't know about the specialization of nurses, never heard about it (not to say it doesn't happen). I thought that mid-levels moving in to primary care was pretty common knowledge? In many states if you go to see your family doctor, you're actually going to see an NP or a PA. With the shortage of primary care doctors in many places, this is part of the solution.

 

[sylvanthus]

http://health.usf.edu/nocms/nursing/AdmissionsPrograms/dnp_residency.html



Yup and now cardiology and oncology "residencies". Be prepared for these doctor-nurses to run around saying they are cardiologists, etc after completing an extremely watered down "residency."

Here I thought the selfless doctor-nurses just wanted to stick with primary care and rural areas? Hah ah ah ah a hah aha ha ha

 

[sliceofbread136]

http://health.usf.edu/nocms/nursing/AdmissionsPrograms/dnp_residency.html



Yup and now cardiology and oncology "residencies". Be prepared for these doctor-nurses to run around saying they are cardiologists, etc after completing an extremely watered down "residency."

Here I thought the selfless doctor-nurses just wanted to stick with primary care and rural areas? Hah ah ah ah a hah aha ha ha

It would be easier to tell the responsibilities of the nurses with this training if you had a better website. The description says "This is a brief sentence about this program"....

I highly highly doubt they have the same responsibilities as a true oncologist or cardiologist etc. I'm guessing they help administer treatment and do lower level tasks.

If a DNP with this training claimed they were equivalent to an MD cardiologist etc., they would be wrong. But we shouldn't judge all DNPs based on this hypothetical person, many could be quiet happy and effective performing the duties that their profession was designed to perform.

 

[sylvanthus]

It would be easier to tell the responsibilities of the nurses with this training if you had a better website. The description says "This is a brief sentence about this program"....

I highly highly doubt they have the same responsibilities as a true oncologist or cardiologist etc. I'm guessing they help administer treatment and do lower level tasks.

If a DNP with this training claimed they were equivalent to an MD cardiologist etc., they would be wrong. But we shouldn't judge all DNPs based on this hypothetical person, many could be quiet happy and effective performing the duties that their profession was designed to perform.[/QUOTE]


Really? They don't even know what the duties are they were designed to perform. They are just grabbing at any additional territory they can get. The very fact that there are specialty "residencies" popping up should point to the fact that as a profession they will not be satisfied until they are completely equivalent to a physician.

 

[danderson]

So, are we going to have even more letters to stick after a nurse's name now??

 

[sliceofbread136]

It would be easier to tell the responsibilities of the nurses with this training if you had a better website. The description says "This is a brief sentence about this program"....

I highly highly doubt they have the same responsibilities as a true oncologist or cardiologist etc. I'm guessing they help administer treatment and do lower level tasks.

If a DNP with this training claimed they were equivalent to an MD cardiologist etc., they would be wrong. But we shouldn't judge all DNPs based on this hypothetical person, many could be quiet happy and effective performing the duties that their profession was designed to perform.[/QUOTE]


Really? They don't even know what the duties are they were designed to perform. They are just grabbing at any additional territory they can get. The very fact that there are specialty "residencies" popping up should point to the fact that as a profession they will not be satisfied until they are completely equivalent to a physician.

I don't really know what you're basing this off of.Credible education programs are generally made because there is a need for people with the skills that are being trained. The reason DNP programs are starting to become popular is because there has been a greater need for nurses with those skills, and jobs are available. If what you claimed was true, no right-minded person would give DNPs a job, and the programs would die out. There is no evil league of nurses out to steal the profession of physician.

 

[sylvanthus]

I don't really know what you're basing this off of.Credible education programs are generally made because there is a need for people with the skills that are being trained. The reason DNP programs are starting to become popular is because there has been a greater need for nurses with those skills, and jobs are available. If what you claimed was true, no right-minded person would give DNPs a job, and the programs would die out. There is no evil league of nurses out to steal the profession of physician.

What are you basing this one? Where is the dire need for cardiologist-nurses and derm-nurses?

 

[sylvanthus]

So, are we going to have even more letters to stick after a nurse's name now??

Absolutely, be prepared to see Dr. Nurse DNP MSN RN ACLS BLS ATLS OMG WTF BBQ 111one!!11! Cardiologist.

 

[sliceofbread136]

What are you basing this one? Where is the dire need for cardiologist-nurses and derm-nurses?

I'm basing it off the fact that if jobs aren't available, the programs would die out. But they haven't been dying out, they've been growing.

When my life slows down alittle bit I'm going to take it upon myself to do some research on DNPs. I think the amount of misinformation and hate-mongering on this board with respect to DNPs is absolutely astounding. IMHO, DNPs could prove to be an invaluable asset to the health community.

 

[sylvanthus]

I'm basing it off the fact that if jobs aren't available, the programs would die out. But they haven't been dying out, they've been growing.

When my life slows down alittle bit I'm going to take it upon myself to do some research on DNPs. I think the amount of misinformation and hate-mongering on this board with respect to DNPs is absolutely astounding. IMHO, DNPs could prove to be an invaluable asset to the health community.

Wrong, so wrong. Look at law schools.....The programs are there because people are foolish enough to go into them. Programs are there to make money, period, and if people keep applying in droves, you know damn well the programs are going to expand. This says absolutely nothing whatsoever about the job market.

 

[DrMediterranean]

DNPs are more holistic, have better bedside manner, and are nicer to their patients.

DNPs >>>>>>>>>>>> MDs/DOs

 

[theseeker4]

I'm basing it off the fact that if jobs aren't available, the programs would die out. But they haven't been dying out, they've been growing.

When my life slows down alittle bit I'm going to take it upon myself to do some research on DNPs. I think the amount of misinformation and hate-mongering on this board with respect to DNPs is absolutely astounding. IMHO, DNPs could prove to be an invaluable asset to the health community.

If there was not a subset of NP's/DNP's who are pushing for independent practice rights equal to those of physicians, despite the huge difference in education, I doubt you would see any "hate-mongering."

 

[druggeek]

lol having talked to many intelligent people as well as myself and my family/relatives... many people would refuse actual medical care from anyone who's a nurse (beyond adjusting the hospital bed, giving some general OTC meds for nausea, taking blood pressure, temperature, etc etc.)...

CRNA? lolwut I'm not letting them put me to sleep, or my kids, or anyone in my family.
DNP? lol @ thinking I'm going to trust their diagnosis over whether or not I have a sinus infection...

Doctors with low experience often aren't trustworthy, yet we have DNPs who have like 10% of the clinical experience (if even that) who are wanting to take as big of a role? cmon man.

 

[The Imprisoned]

DNPs are more holistic, have better bedside manner, and are nicer to their patients.

DNPs >>>>>>>>>>>> MDs/DOs

April fools day is over lol.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Wrong, so wrong. Look at law schools.....The programs are there because people are foolish enough to go into them. Programs are there to make money, period, and if people keep applying in droves, you know damn well the programs are going to expand. This says absolutely nothing whatsoever about the job market.

A good point, but if you compare DNP vs law, one is having new jobs created while the other is oversaturated. To me, it seems that the field is growing because we need more mid-level care providers, and DNPs have been recognized as qualified to do that, hence the growth of jobs.

On the specialist nurse front, I'm assuming they provide nursing services in their field of specialty. I don't really know because I've never heard of them and you didn't really provide any information about them.

 

[Finches]

I have seen multiple posts that are anti-NP or anti-DNP that are so infantile they feel like playground bullying. I don't see MD/DO outrage when optometrists or podiatrists or pharmacists call themselves Dr. Why so against nurses? Because MDs consistently berate and belittle the nursing profession, this what is taught in med school, a form of arrogance and workplace violence that is passed down from resident to resident and the expected norm for behavior.
ANY person who receives their doctorate, call call themselves Doctor. Do you wish to ban all psychologists, history professors and other university faculty from using the term for the degree they have earned? No, just nurses, because MD/DOs love to blame nurses, criticize nurses and belittle nurses.
By the way, the term Doctor originated as a Doctor of PHILOSOPHY not doctor of medicine and was appropriated by the medical profession.

Gah...I was so happy to see this pride-battle thread wither away, and now it's back. Thanks, nurse BLAPE. As someone who deeply respects DNPs for all they do, posts like yours are, in fact, counterproductive.

The bolded argument on using the "Doctor" title, and how DNPs always bring up professors and Ph.Ds as an argument, always drives me nuts.

It's a difference between principle and practice. In principle, yes, history professors, psychologists, and university faculty are all formally "Dr.XXXX". But in practice, especially in a medical environment such as hospitals or clinics, "doctor" is used by patients to refer to physicians. Nurses and DNPs know this too; they just purposely act ignorant and argue on the side of principle because they have something to gain.

Not one of my professors whine about being called "Professor Smith" or "Professor Johnson". They hold doctorates, but their profession is in teaching. So one has to question why nurses have such a problem with being called "Nurse Smith". You have a doctorate in nursing, but your profession is in nursing.

And really, what matters in the end is that we don't confuse our patients. Not a single patient is going to be confused if you introduce yourself as a nurse (in fact, they may still refer you as their "doctor", and then it's w/e), but some may be confused if you introduce yourself as a doctor, but find out that you're not an MD/DO later.

 

[theseeker4]

A good point, but if you compare DNP vs law, one is having new jobs created while the other is oversaturated. To me, it seems that the field is growing because we need more mid-level care providers, and DNPs have been recognized as qualified to do that, hence the growth of jobs.

On the specialist nurse front, I'm assuming they provide nursing services in their field of specialty. I don't really know because I've never heard of them and you didn't really provide any information about them.

I don't really think anyone is arguing against nurses performing nursing roles. The problem is, as I mentioned above, there are DNP's who are arguing for full, independent practice rights equivalent to those of physicians, despite the huge deficit in education. That should bother anyone who may need to be treated for a serious condition at a hospital, and the lack of experience should raise questions about the DNP's ability to spot a rare condition, especially in a primary care setting (which some people believe is perfect for DNPs to practice independently.)

 

[sliceofbread136]

I don't really think anyone is arguing against nurses performing nursing roles. The problem is, as I mentioned above, there are DNP's who are arguing for full, independent practice rights equivalent to those of physicians, despite the huge deficit in education. That should bother anyone who may need to be treated for a serious condition at a hospital, and the lack of experience should raise questions about the DNP's ability to spot a rare condition, especially in a primary care setting (which some people believe is perfect for DNPs to practice independently.)

These roles are expanding, especially into primary care which is underserved. Imo, this expansion will be a good thing if well regulated. The extent of the expansion should be debatable, but this not what SDN generally debates. What I see on SDN is "stupid nurses! think they are as good as us with less training!". This isn't productive.

 

[zwitterion34]

These roles are expanding, especially into primary care which is underserved. Imo, this expansion will be a good thing if well regulated. The extent of the expansion should be debatable, but this not what SDN generally debates. What I see on SDN is "stupid nurses! think they are as good as us with less training!". This isn't productive.

Troll post of the day! 🙂

 

[sliceofbread136]

Troll post of the day! 🙂

Uhhh good argument? Not following your opinion != troll

 

[sylvanthus]

These roles are expanding, especially into primary care which is underserved. Imo, this expansion will be a good thing if well regulated. The extent of the expansion should be debatable, but this not what SDN generally debates. What I see on SDN is "stupid nurses! think they are as good as us with less training!". This isn't productive.

But, it isn't being regulated well. It is chaos on the nursing side of things. Have you looked at all the possible degrees and titles? Its nuts! The nursing profession cannot even agree what should be the standard for education for an RN. Is it an associates? Bachelors? Just pass the NCLEX? Now, DNP for advanced practice when it was a master's just recently.

Hell all of medicine is rampant with people trying to get a larger scope. Naturopaths in oregon can now prescribe antibiotics. optometrists are getting surgical priviledges in some states. pharmacists want to play a role in diagnosis. CRNAs want to do pain medicine and practice completely independently in all states. Etc etc etc. It is a cluster****.

So, excuse those of us who are putting in a decade of education, for getting annoyed that less well trained individuals want to do the same thing.

 

[druggeek]

I don't really think anyone is arguing against nurses performing nursing roles. The problem is, as I mentioned above, there are DNP's who are arguing for full, independent practice rights equivalent to those of physicians, despite the huge deficit in education. That should bother anyone who may need to be treated for a serious condition at a hospital, and the lack of experience should raise questions about the DNP's ability to spot a rare condition, especially in a primary care setting (which some people believe is perfect for DNPs to practice independently.)

High HIV risk patient comes in with flu like symptoms. Wanna bet how likely it is the DNP/NP/whatever crap theyre called will tell the person to get some rest and completely overlook the possibility of the patient being in an acute HIV infection phase? Even in primary care these wannabes will screw up quite a bit, are we going to say "oh well, **** happens?" Just cause some nurses want to be doctors?